Re: The creation of the Universe.
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Originally Posted by LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix
Yes, but apparently if you look far enough away, you'll see light sent out as early as from the time when big bang was supposed to happen. If you look further away, you're supposed to see... what? Will there be an edge there?
No, because there is nothing there. You're still trying to work with a linear model.
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Originally Posted by LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix
Also, I've still not seen the proof that time couldn't exist before big bang. A bunch of matter and stuff goes boom and therefore no time could exist before...? That's an assumption if anything. I too made an assumption, but it was an assumption that the big bang theory also uses. I use but one assumption, the big bang theory uses that assumption plus at least one more. I personally think big bang is as little trustworthy as the God model.
Time is a dimensional property of the universe. If the universe doesn't exist then neither does time. We need to agree on our language - you are taking my use of the word 'assumption' as if am using it as a bad thing.
Assumptions, alongside observations, are the basis of science. One makes an assumption to test a theory and if the assumption can be validated, it helps bolster the theory. The problem with the God model is that there are no ways to test the assumptions integral to the theory. This does not mean the God model is wrong, just that it can't be validated except through faith, and therefore it is not science.
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Originally Posted by LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix
Both are after all models, there's no skilled scientists that would say big bang is the truth, only a model of truth until we can find a contradiction in it and new observations and/or thoughts require a change of model, much like the case has been in quantum physics where we've changed model at least 5 times the last century. So - if big bang doesn't in any way whatsoever motivate, theoretically or by some observation, that time couldn't exist before big bang, then it's obviously not a complete theory.
Precisely. The Big Bang is a model that has, to date, explained most of the observations we can make of our universe. It does not consider what you call 'before'. Beyond that is the realm of pure mathematical models, to which we can try and fit new observations - which will either continue to support the consensus, or wreck it at which time we come up with a new model to be tested.
I can't argue with you about the God model because it can't be tested. There is no evidence for or against that I can validate through scientific method, and I can't replicate your observations. Thus the God model belongs to the world of faith, not to the world of science. Comparing scientific theories with faith is fruitless. Neither is necessarily 'The Truth' but they are utterly different paradigms. ~:cool:
Re: The creation of the Universe.
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I can't argue with you about the God model because it can't be tested. There is no evidence for or against that I can validate through scientific method, and I can't replicate your observations. Thus the God model belongs to the world of faith, not to the world of science. Comparing scientific theories with faith is fruitless. Neither is necessarily 'The Truth' but they are utterly different paradigms.
Definately. Well said.
Re: The creation of the Universe.
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Originally Posted by Haruchai
I can't argue with you about the God model because it can't be tested. There is no evidence for or against that I can validate through scientific method, and I can't replicate your observations. Thus the God model belongs to the world of faith, not to the world of science. Comparing scientific theories with faith is fruitless. Neither is necessarily 'The Truth' but they are utterly different paradigms. ~:cool:
First of all I'm not supporting God theory just because I don't support the Big bang theory. Plus regarding the God model, you can indeed prove it's existence through a circular proof - define God as "the creator of the universe", then the universe must have been created by God. But as I explained earlier in the thread, that God concept isn't necessarily the same concept as the concept religious people normally call God. For example, if the big bang theory would be true, then the Big Bang would be called God, and the word God would refer to Big Bang, but it wouldn't simulatenously imply that you can pray to Big Bang, and expect a response. It could also mean that the word God is defined as a classifying concept containing many concept, much like "primates" refer to all individual apes and humans. So God would then, in this example, mean "Big Bang AND some being you can pray to", without Big Bang being the same as the being you could pray to. And you wouldn't either have any proof of the being you can pray to exists, you might even have a situation where Big Bang exists and the being you can pray to doesn't, while you can still define the word "God" as both of them together. And because much religion define God as the creator of the universe, this circular proof isn't as bad as it might sound, the problem is that the religious seldom understand that God concept, and use it in a different meaning in other cases, without knowing it's a different concept in reality they are referring to. Apart from that I won't discuss the God model, except explain what I mean by this text above if it was unclear.
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Originally Posted by Haruchai
No, because there is nothing there. You're still trying to work with a linear model.
So what would the photographic lenses, on telescopes, if zoomed in far enough, record on them? Blackness? Can the non-existance have a color? If you could see the non-existance, it would be a paradox.
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Originally Posted by Haruchai
Time is a dimensional property of the universe. If the universe doesn't exist then neither does time. We need to agree on our language - you are taking my use of the word 'assumption' as if am using it as a bad thing.
But the Big Bang theory isn't about the birth of the universe, is it? It's supposed to explain why matter is moving like it does today, split up the way it is today, and why exergy exists and we don't live in a thermal death-scenario. If you can show that the Big Bang theory explains the birth of dimensions too, then I could maybe believe in it. But as it is now the concept of matter and exergy is called universe when you try to prove the theory, and when you use it, the concept of matter, exergy, energy and dimensions are also involved in the concept. I'm not trying to be cheeky, just want to know if there, within the big bang theory, is really any explanation for these things too?
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Originally Posted by Haruchai
Assumptions, alongside observations, are the basis of science. One makes an assumption to test a theory and if the assumption can be validated, it helps bolster the theory. The problem with the God model is that there are no ways to test the assumptions integral to the theory. This does not mean the God model is wrong, just that it can't be validated except through faith, and therefore it is not science.
A theory derived theoretically by logic etc. is based on assumptions, like all logic. The problem is, if those assumptions are incorrect, the entire theory isn't necessarily true any more. That's why every statement about reality should rely as little as possible on as few assumptions as possible.
@mystic brew: Yes, I can support the statemetn that time can be a dimension, but I can't support that time wouldn't have existed always, or that the room dimensions wouldn't have existed always, unless there's some motivation for it. Which "universe" was created by big bang? Time and space and energy and exergy, or just exergy and some movement of matter? There's still no proof that those parts of the universe (time and space) hasn't existed always, and that it would have been created. Actually there's still no proof that both matter, energy, exergy, time and space hasn't existed always.
Re: The creation of the Universe.
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So what would the photographic lenses, on telescopes, if zoomed in far enough, record on them? Blackness? Can the non-existance have a color? If you could see the non-existance, it would be a paradox.
Zoomed back far enough you just see what the universe looked like the first moment it became transparent. It's not in visible light anymore though due to shifts caused by the universe expanding (think red-shift). It's radiowave length. I could probably find dozens of images of it given a bit of searching on Google.
Re: The creation of the Universe.
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Originally Posted by BDC
Zoomed back far enough you just see what the universe looked like the first moment it became transparent. It's not in visible light anymore though due to shifts caused by the universe expanding (think red-shift). It's radiowave length. I could probably find dozens of images of it given a bit of searching on Google.
So if space and time didn't exist before this big boom, what sent out this light that was infrared or has become infrared when travelling through space? This infrared stuff however explains my own private 1 minute thought up theory hehe :grin:
Edit: and supposing you'd travel to the edge, would you "fall off the edge"?
Re: The creation of the Universe.
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Originally Posted by LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix
Plus regarding the God model, you can indeed prove it's existence through a circular proof - define God as "the creator of the universe", then the universe must have been created by God.
:dizzy2: ~:confused: :wall:
Erm... you lost me right there.
I surrender. ~:cool:
:surrender:
Re: The creation of the Universe.
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Originally Posted by Haruchai
:dizzy2: ~:confused: :wall:
Erm... you lost me right there.
I surrender. ~:cool:
:surrender:
Ok, let me explain it more simply: you can make something that is formally possible to consider a correct proof (even despite that it's a circular proof, yes I know it sounds odd), but that proof in fact isn't a proof in the sense you normally mean a proof should be (just something that formally looks like a proof), so nobody has any use for that "proof" in practise. So the paragraph I wrote above really says nothing at all, but it does so in a very deep way :grin:
Re: The creation of the Universe.
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Originally Posted by LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix
Ok, let me explain it more simply: you can make something that is formally possible to consider a correct proof (even despite that it's a circular proof, yes I know it sounds odd), but that proof in fact isn't a proof in the sense you normally mean a proof should be (just something that formally looks like a proof), so nobody has any use for that "proof" in practise. So the paragraph I wrote above really says nothing at all, but it does so in a very deep way :grin:
Prove it. :bounce:
Seriously, if you want to learn more about the Big Bang and how there is no before, try Paul Davies "The Last Three Minutes". It's quite short and well written. Of course there is always Stephen Hawkin's "A Short History of Time".
As for proving how the creation of dimensions such as time and space happened, well, you're gonna have to learn super string theory. :book:
Re: The creation of the Universe.
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Originally Posted by Haruchai
Prove it. :bounce:
Which of the things did you mean? Or was it just teasing :grin: ?
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Seriously, if you want to learn more about the Big Bang and how there is no before, try Paul Davies "The Last Three Minutes". It's quite short and well written. Of course there is always Stephen Hawkin's "A Short History of Time".
As for proving how the creation of dimensions such as time and space happened, well, you're gonna have to learn super string theory. :book:
I would have checked it out, if I wasn't already forced to read some 2000 pages per month :wall:
Anyway I think these super strings and so on might just be a complicated and unintuitive way of saying something simple. Some examples of such situations:
- Einstein's theory of relativity says certain waves move straight through space, but space is bent. You could also say (easier to understand I think) that space is straight, but those certain waves bend off.
- Before Kepler it was said that the earth was the center of the solar system. Kepler stated the sun was the center. Both starting points could give pretty accurate models, but putting the sun in the middle made it easier to describe and understand the planet movements in few words.
So I think these super strings are just an overly complicated way of describing the universe. Some parts of it seem to just be assumptions - for example that not all dimensions have existed always...
Re: The creation of the Universe.
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Originally Posted by LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix
Which of the things did you mean? Or was it just teasing :grin: ?
Just teasing :2thumbsup:
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Originally Posted by LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix
- Before Kepler it was said that the earth was the center of the solar system. Kepler stated the sun was the center. Both starting points could give pretty accurate models, but putting the sun in the middle made it easier to describe and understand the planet movements in few words.
Absolutely. I'm all for simplicity in explanations, but not at the expense of accuracy. It might be easier to accept the earth as the centre of the solar system for those of us who live on it - it seems intuitive - but it's WRONG. It also means you don't understand the planet's orbits because their observed movements don't match the calculations. So science gets even more bent out of shape. :freak:
The same as using the billiard balls/little solar system model to illustrate how electrons orbit atomic nuclei. Simple to understand, but ultimately wrong - and so all your scientific advances based on quantum mechanics are lost.
Once you have a better model, you discard the older less accurate one. That's progress. ~:thumb:
By the way, it was Copernicus that postulated the heliocentric theory (earth orbits the sun) and it was confirmed observationally by Galileo. Assumption, Theory, Observation, Validation. Beautiful, ain't it? :daisy:
Re: The creation of the Universe.
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Originally Posted by Haruchai
Assumption, Theory, Observation, Validation. Beautiful, ain't it? :daisy:
Yes beautiful :2thumbsup: (but how do the flowers :daisy: fit into the picture? :wink:)
Re: The creation of the Universe.
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Originally Posted by LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix
- Einstein's theory of relativity says certain waves move straight through space, but space is bent. You could also say (easier to understand I think) that space is straight, but those certain waves bend off.
It is easier to understand relativity without the effects of gravity (bent space).
That is why the easier version is refered to as special relativity... special because it refers to a flat spacetime (no gravity)... a restricted subset of the more general set of solutions.
While general relativity being the more difficult version to understand includes the effects of gravity. And by definition treats gravity as a geometric effect... in other words space is bent by gravity.
Re: The creation of the Universe.
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Originally Posted by Papewaio
It is easier to understand relativity without the effects of gravity (bent space).
That is why the easier version is refered to as special relativity... special because it refers to a flat spacetime (no gravity)... a restricted subset of the more general set of solutions.
While general relativity being the more difficult version to understand includes the effects of gravity. And by definition treats gravity as a geometric effect... in other words space is bent by gravity.
Yes, but maybe you've heard this:
Passenger: Does this train stop at Princeton?
Einstein: One might as well say - does Princeton stop at this train?
What's the difference between that and this:
- Space is bent and things move straightly through it
- Space is straight and things move through bent paths through it
Re: The creation of the Universe.
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Originally Posted by LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix
Yes beautiful :2thumbsup: (but how do the flowers :daisy: fit into the picture? :wink:)
Erm..just my attempt to simplify Copernican solar mechanics - look, it's easy, just think of the sun as a daisy - the corona is the petals and that bee is like, er, Jupiter but furry .... :embarassed:
OK, I'll get my coat. ~:wave:
Re: The creation of the Universe.
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Originally Posted by LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix
Yes, but maybe you've heard this:
Passenger: Does this train stop at Princeton?
Einstein: One might as well say - does Princeton stop at this train?
What's the difference between that and this:
- Space is bent and things move straightly through it
- Space is straight and things move through bent paths through it
Einstein is talking about frames of reference.
The difference between space being bent and things going in bent paths is okay from a frame of reference point of view.
From an understanding of cause and effect, it is easier to understand it from the point of view of what is causing the change... space is bent = gravity, rather then things move in bent paths because of ?.
One has a cause and effect, the other just describes the effect.
