Estonia's Decision to Remove Soviet WWII Monument Sparks Protest

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sarmatian

Well, a common thing for almost all european neighbours of russia is that they are a part of nato. Asian neigbours of russia (and not just neighbours, almost all asian countries) have good relations with russia. You have to look at a bigger picture

---

I was under the impression that the Russians and the Chinese have had several serious differences of opinion since the 60s... So if conflict broke out in the Far West, I'm fairly positive China would go for a land grab in Siberia.

North Korea is treated like the red-headed step child by both China and Russia, and I'm fairly positive that Russia and Japan are just economically linked, but no buddying up...ever. Now, the Near East is a different matter, but since the Russo-Afghan War, the muslim world really has about as much respect for the Ruskies as they do the yanks.

Well, most dictators, dictator wannabes and all the others noone likes get their weapons from Russia. Maybe illegal, but they should at least be thankful.:sweatdrop:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wakizashi

I was under the impression that the Russians and the Chinese have had several serious differences of opinion since the 60s... So if conflict broke out in the Far West, I'm fairly positive China would go for a land grab in Siberia.

North Korea is treated like the red-headed step child by both China and Russia, and I'm fairly positive that Russia and Japan are just economically linked, but no buddying up...ever. Now, the Near East is a different matter, but since the Russo-Afghan War, the muslim world really has about as much respect for the Ruskies as they do the yanks.

---

http://www.saag.org/papers17/paper1682.html

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/IB17Ag02.html

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sarmatian

http://www.saag.org/papers17/paper1682.html

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/IB17Ag02.html

---

Wow. That's... wow.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sarmatian

Which russian spokesman?

---

Of one of their oil companies. I don't remember which one. I have readabout it in two different sources and have no reason to doubt it, especially considering the level of anti-Estonian hysteria spreading in Russia.

Quote:

---

Well, a common thing for almost all european neighbours of russia is that they are a part of nato. Asian neigbours of russia (and not just neighbours, almost all asian countries) have good relations with russia. You have to look at a bigger picture

---

China ( Ussuri crisis, Amur case etc), Japan, Afghanistan, Iran (at least some time ago, now have different things to do), Turkmenistan ( Russian minority is really persecuted there, though Kremlin tries not too look too closely), more ?

Quote:

---

Conradus


Does that include Belarus? I thought they were still at good terms with the Kremlin.

---

Yes, especially since Mr. Lukashenko did realise the unification with Russia will not make him the president of both states. ;)

Of course the opposition has much worse opinion about the whole thing, but of course they are fascist lapdogs just like Estonians... ;)

So what if Russia applies to join the NATO or the EU?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Husar

So what if Russia applies to join the NATO or the EU?

---

Right, that's going to happen really soon ~;)

Well, if they can't fight the NATO, they can join it.
Maybe not under Putin, but we can only hope that this changes soon as well.:sweatdrop:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cegorach

Of one of their oil companies. I don't remember which one. I have readabout it in two different sources and have no reason to doubt it, especially considering the level of anti-Estonian hysteria spreading in Russia.

---

Spokesman from oil company? His opinion is important politicaly just about as yours or mine...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cegorach

China ( Ussuri crisis, Amur case etc), Japan, Afghanistan, Iran (at least some time ago, now have different things to do), Turkmenistan ( Russian minority is really persecuted there, though Kremlin tries not too look too closely), more ?

---

China - read the first of the two links I presented in the last post.
If it's too much trouble here is a part about china:

The following developments in the last year or so, point to the above:

Russia-China strategic partnership stands greatly intensified. With the border dispute agreement in place, both nations have available military resources so relieved for other tasks.

Russia and China conducted the first ever large scale joint military exercises in East Asia to which military observers from all over the world were invited, except from the United States.

Russia and China have coordinated their efforts to make the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation into more of a regional military bloc. This has given them confidence to demand that the United States sets a timetable for withdrawal of its military presence from Central Asian Republics.

Iran - well, things change.

I agree with you on Japan and Afghanistan (I am not familiar with situation in turkmenistan). But, Japan is a strong u.s. ally which is a big obstacle.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Husar

Well, if they can't fight the NATO, they can join it.
Maybe not under Putin, but we can only hope that this changes soon as well.:sweatdrop:

---

Regardless of President Putin, it is extremely unlikely that any Russian administration will seek to join either.

The Russian people still see themselves as both a military and economic superpower - or at worst, aspire to regain that status quickly. There is quite some justification for this view.

To join NATO would mean Russian military and foreign policy would be subordinated to that of the USA - which is de facto the leader of NATO - more even than just "first among equals". This was the reason France disassociated herself from direct involvement in the alliance - how much more so for Russia.

Russia sees the EU as a business opportunity for her immense natural resources, and sees no need to hamstring her choices by being an integral part of the Union. There are no advantages for her economic policy which are not currently available to her. Again, she would not want to be influenced in foreign policy by having to work with the Commission.

Russia will always be a significant world player on her own and most Russians would like that to continue. They are a proud people - still suffering from misplaced nationalism and the injured arrogance of an ex-imperial power, but rightly proud.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sarmatian

Spokesman from oil company? His opinion is important politicaly just about as yours or mine...

---

Well... considering that the companies are state controlled and are used as a political tool it does.

Quote:

---

China - read the first of the two links I presented in the last post.
If it's too much trouble here is a part about china:

The following developments in the last year or so, point to the above:

Russia-China strategic partnership stands greatly intensified. With the border dispute agreement in place, both nations have available military resources so relieved for other tasks.

Russia and China conducted the first ever large scale joint military exercises in East Asia to which military observers from all over the world were invited, except from the United States.

Russia and China have coordinated their efforts to make the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation into more of a regional military bloc. This has given them confidence to demand that the United States sets a timetable for withdrawal of its military presence from Central Asian Republics.

---

You are saying... Recent years mean something, but hostilities did happen and are still there.
Especially with those 'chinese phobia' in Russia about its far east terrains which see the influx of Chinese immigrants - for now it is 5 million making them the second ethnic group in that part of Russia.

Quote:

---

Iran - well, things change.

I agree with you on Japan and Afghanistan (I am not familiar with situation in turkmenistan). But, Japan is a strong u.s. ally which is a big obstacle.

---

I have got a feeling you blame the USA or the NATO for everything... Or did the invasion in the 1980s and the case of Kuril Islands is what really made the difference ?





LAST MINUTE


Russian state railway decided to cancell the connection from St.Petersburg to Tallin. The decision wasn't based on economical factors because the connection was profitable ( expenses 856 th. roubles, final profit 467 th, roubles) and ironically the connection was used by the Russian minoritiy in Estonia as the primary consumer.

In other words they hit their own countrymen.:dizzy2:



Another thing.

Former chancellor of Germany Mr. Schroeder was supposed to meet Estonian PM.
The meeting was cancelled due to Mr.Schroeder's statement that Estonia offends the memory of those who fight fascism.
Considering that he is a friend of Mr. Putin (who is even the 'godfather' of Schroesder's adopted child) and works for Gazprom I doubt anyone will call him neutral...

Anyway the meeting was to discuss the change of the Baltic Pipe project.
Because Finland and Sweden have strong concerns about its impact in the ecology of the sea (chemical weaponry dumped during the 2nd WW lies on the bottom of this sea) the Russian-german project is in trouble.

The revised project puts the piepe on the territorial waters of Estonia.

Now do you think the Estonians will agree ?:beam:


Remember that Poland and all the Baltic states are opposing the project from the beginning.:egypt:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cegorach

In other words they hit their own countrymen.:dizzy2:

---

Since when are Estonians countrymen of Russians? :scholar:

I've got the feeling I'm watching a discussion betwee two biased persons. No offence please.

As to the statue question; being Belgian I find it hard to understand these things. National pride isn't something common in our country. If it was just a statue for Russian soldiers who gave their life fighting Nazi Germany, then it was wrong to remove it, why shouldn't it stand on the major square of the city? But considering the Soviet occupation of Estonia, things are sparked.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Husar

So what if Russia applies to join the NATO or the EU?

---

If Russia joined NATO, that would be the king of irony.