Capo di Tutti Capi IV [Concluded]

Even though I probably was only alive for less than half of this game, it's still one of the best experiences I've had playing mafia.
ATPG, you're one of the most brilliant people I've ever played mafia with. Your ability to plan ahead, tell an immense web of lies that somehow makes perfect sense to everyone, and the way you can say just the right things to get people on your side... all of these are skills you have mastered.
When I was about to be lynched, and you approached me, I was reluctant at first. Eventually, however, I came to trust you, because it meant my survival. The rest of my family never really trusted you in any sense of the word. Because of this, we ended up sending you very obvious mixed signals. You then figured out what exactly was going on and promptly killed all of us. I don't blame them for anything; in fact, I have a lot of respect for them, because they would rather go down fighting than give up and join your side. I'd like to thank you for offering me sanctuary for that brief moment of time, though. Looking back, it was a very risky move for you to take, and you did it simply to help a struggling family. You've certainly earned a lot of respect from me this game.
Of course, a tip of the hat to Seamus, 'khaan, and GH. Fantastic job by your part. Thanks for everything you did to make this one of the best games in the history of mafia at the .org. :bow:

Congrats ATPG. A well-deserved win. Though as you've seen, you never had me fooled to what your intentions were. My failing was not shoving my ideas down my teammate's throats more forcibly. As for my teammates: Renata, Niklas, and Winston: It was an absolute blast to go back in time so to speak to the glory-filled NOTW days at CFC and scheme with the three of you again. After having not done it in forever, I realized just how much fun it is and hope we can do it again sometime soon. Winston - thanks for 'recruiting' me into the Corelone family - none of this happens without us going on a killing rampage at the midgame. Renata - thanks for pretty much trusting me from the onset of me joining the Corelone's. To be honest I was expecting some hesitation because of your general paranoia you can have at times, but we pretty much got down to business immediately. And Niklas - it was nice to see you come back and be the bad-ass everyone at CFC knows you are. It was fun to watch you work your magic. So maybe next time, you guys listen to the bloodthirsty maniac calling for ATPG's head since October?

Special thanks to Seamus for getting this massive game even off of the ground, and another round of props to GH and 'khaan for keeping this beast rolling. The transition was seamless and the execution superb. Well done!

Lastly:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

"You are a vicious man Backwards Logic, and, uh, I'm glad you're dead!"

---

This is getting sig'd. :laugh4:

Given that my own personal goal was to survive to endgame, I'm shocked and happy to have achieved it.

Fun game, all, thank you very much, and Pizza you magnificent bastard.

Congrats to the Clemenza and ATPG, and big thank you to the hosts. :bow:

I only wish I could have lived longer, I wanted so badly to become mafia, infiltrate Pizza's group, and then take Pizza down.:evil: Perhaps next time.

I guess I now have company as Capo's. Good game everybody, hope theres no hard feelings towards anyone!

As to my play, oh things could have gone so much better for me... If I had been allowed to take down Gamezrule and be elected to both the Pentangeli and Corleone donship I really do think that we could have beaten ATPG. No offense to Gamezrule, but I really dont think you managed the Corleone family well. Ah well whats done is done and no hard feelings. With a little more ruthlessness we could have won...

Renata, I was entirely serious that I was loyal to the Corleone family the entire time. When someone looks out for me, I look out for them. All it would have taken is a show of renewed trust and I would have been your man.

Anyways once again Congrats to ATPG, becoming Capo is a long and hard process, but oh it feels so sweet to win ;)

so what i predicted has come to pass. not exactly the way it was done but the end result. i knew Pizza would off me eventually but went along for the ride. i'd never gone as far as i did if i tried to get him. i was just supposed to be cannon fodder. fate threw me a real curve.

congratulations Pizza. thanks to Seamus for setting it up. thanks to GH and Khaan for taking over. thanks everyone for a fun game. :bow:

So, what I did: I was attempting to go either Rogue Detective or Wiseguy from the start, because killing people is fun. :clown: I had a bit of trouble getting that done at first, all the people I contacted for the first few nights had organization problems. Kudos to ATPG for being able to get stuff done.

First few nights of doing nothing:

Night 1: Was originally supposed to protect Winston, but forgot to send in orders (and he wasn't attacked, so it didn't matter)
Night 2: Protect Subotan with Nightbringer, Cecil XIX, and Riedquat (Inconclusive, he wasn't attacked)
Night 3: Protect Diana with Sprig and Niklas (Inconclusive, she wasn't attacked)
Night 4: Unable to do anything on account of aforementioned organixation failure.

So yeah. :no:

On Night 5, I was among the many ATPG contacted asking us to do stuff. I replied as such:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Choxorn

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

Greetings folks.

Some of my group have dropped off or gone inactive, and I'm searching for more vigs or protectors.

If you've been having trouble finding groups, and/or would like to appear in the writeup for alibi purposes, and/or need a certain number additional successes for promotion, and would like assistance, contact me before night begins.

I may still have spaces after, but your best bet is contacting me before I send out actions.

---

I'm in a couple of groups that have never really done anything. :stare:

I'll gladly join one you're organizing.

---

Heck, I probably would have worked for him at this point even if I knew he was evil. :laugh4:

Back to my night actions:

Night 5: Attack Askthepizzaguy with Winston Hughes, Jarema, Raskolnikov, and Ibn-Khaldun (Fail, he was protected)
Night 6: Attack Nictel with Secura, ULC, Sigurd, issaikhaan, TheStranger, and Beskar (Success)
Night 7: Attack dcmort93 with BSmith, LazyMcCrow, robbiecon, Ibn-Khaldun, Niklas and qlyphz (Fail, target was Lucky)

The next two nights, my stay in Mercy made me incapable of doing anything, and then the mafia killed me. :stare: Come on, I totally would have joined you guys if you'd let me! It beats dying any day! :laugh4: Okay, I probably would have become afflicted with Chronic Backstabbing Disorder, but still.

So yeah, I did nothing much the entire game, joined ATPG and took the red pill, and was immediately mafia-killed. Sigh, I only got one kill. I guess it's only appropriate that it was Nictel. :laugh4:

Oh yeah, and I also saw a bunch of people sending Pizza email adresses, so I decided to send him the one with the Smoking Gunman email with a bunch of weird wording just to see if anyone would actually respond. Nobody ever did. It pretty much had no effect on the game aside from me using it to email the Fatlington Police that ATPG was telling the truth about something. I then sent it to ATPG to post on the radio again to try to mess with people, which didn't work at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by landlubber

Even though I probably was only alive for less than half of this game, it's still one of the best experiences I've had playing mafia.
ATPG, you're one of the most brilliant people I've ever played mafia with. Your ability to plan ahead, tell an immense web of lies that somehow makes perfect sense to everyone, and the way you can say just the right things to get people on your side... all of these are skills you have mastered.
When I was about to be lynched, and you approached me, I was reluctant at first. Eventually, however, I came to trust you, because it meant my survival. The rest of my family never really trusted you in any sense of the word. Because of this, we ended up sending you very obvious mixed signals. You then figured out what exactly was going on and promptly killed all of us. I don't blame them for anything; in fact, I have a lot of respect for them, because they would rather go down fighting than give up and join your side. I'd like to thank you for offering me sanctuary for that brief moment of time, though. Looking back, it was a very risky move for you to take, and you did it simply to help a struggling family. You've certainly earned a lot of respect from me this game.
Of course, a tip of the hat to Seamus, 'khaan, and GH. Fantastic job by your part. Thanks for everything you did to make this one of the best games in the history of mafia at the .org. :bow:

---

Yeah... I guess I can feel a tiny bit less like an evil evil, because no matter who you were, if you were struggling in this game and you approached me I tried to help where I could, or even if you didn't approach me and I approached you.

I wanted to get the Tataglia and the Barzini involved in the 3 family alliance. Their fate would have been the same; I'd have figured out who the Dons were and removed them, but the Mades would be welcome to advance to the next stage of the game, possibly join the winning family.

-----Commies:

Which reminds me; I was responsible for Ishmael's downfall for the communists, primarily to keep them in check. However, after that point they took a hit or two that I wasn't responsible for and I scrambled to find them some more recruits, especially recruits that could protect each other like doctors.

I failed in that regard, but only because so many people were unsusceptible. Sorry communists, I did try to help. I told others we were going to crush you because I had to tell everyone that we were going to crush someone. People sided with me because I promised to remove people other than themselves. I never really intended to wipe you guys out, as long as you stayed loyal.

OTLD siding with the Insurrection meant that he would have been the next lynch, today, in spite of my promise to Visorslash. As for shlin28, well he wasn't really a communist and he appeared guilty on a night when there was a strange killing, so.... he had to go. But you guys needed him dead anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SisterCoyote

Given that my own personal goal was to survive to endgame, I'm shocked and happy to have achieved it.

Fun game, all, thank you very much, and Pizza you magnificent bastard.

---

SisterCoyote, you were never in danger from me. You followed me from the beginning, became a doctor, protected my life, I trusted you.

You risked things a bit siding with the Insurrection, but I understood that. Your only "error" in my mind, which was a perfectly legit move.

I didn't want to kill you and I knew you'd be safe with the townie survivors. You had no enemies, least of all me.

At the end the people I thought about removing were Beefy due to his voting inactivity and I dont think he got his 5 protects anyway, OTLD for going inactive/siding against me, DIY for being a big ole pain in the booty (as it should be), and even LazyMcCrow.

I had a little bit of paranoia about Lazy joining the Clemenza and then wiping us all out at the end due to some hidden game mechanic of infiltrating a faction and surviving to the end.... the serial killer goes nuts and destroys the mafia.

That's what I would have added to the role if I was the game creator. Make someone pay for not catching the SK.

I decided it was creative but a long shot and if he won that way, so be it. I relied on him to survive the tie-round so I owe him the win anyway.

I'm just happy I survived so long. And I get a close victory, I think! Go Mafia! Amazing game, Seamus, GH, and khaan!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Choxorn

The next two nights, my stay in Mercy made me incapable of doing anything, and then the mafia killed me. :stare: Come on, I totally would have joined you guys if you'd let me! It beats dying any day! :laugh4: Okay, I probably would have become afflicted with Chronic Backstabbing Disorder, but still.

So yeah, I did nothing much the entire game, joined ATPG and took the red pill, and was immediately mafia-killed. Sigh, I only got one kill. I guess it's only appropriate that it was Nictel. :laugh4

---

Reason we targeted you was because you weren't having much success advancing and we needed cannon fodder to promote others.

If you had been more successful, you'd have been along for the ride.

A lot of people were targeted for the reason they weren't wiseguy yet, or weren't active enough.... folks who I felt I couldn't rely on in the endgame because they kept missing orders, or if they strayed from my night action groups, or if they couldn't get the job done for any reason. It didn't even have to be your fault, you just needed to lag behind the pack in terms of promotions, and then like a predator thinning out the herd, you'd be taken down for being slower than the others.

One of the things I hated was having to pick the people who died. In general, look at my kills.... who died early?

1) Non-voters
2) Non-talkers
3) Lurkers
4) Folks who talked too much about fight club (ACIN wouldn't shut his yap about what we were doing!) :stare:
5) Folks who weren't advancing very far down any path
6) Folks who weren't wiseguys yet


You become a wiseguy and work for me, that's your golden ticket generally. Sigurd struggled and it broke my heart when he got eaten by the communists and I couldn't rely on him anymore.

For reference, here's the kind of :daisy: I sent people (before I got exposed, even!) to try to recruit them into the mafia.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sigurd

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

Strange, Sigurd... While I was NOT responsible for either Xenon or Arjos' death [arjos being one of my loyal action group peoples, Xenon being no threat to us], I am extremely surprised by your continued insistence that you're communist.

You know I got Earthling lynched because of that sorta thing. Why do you continue with the charade?

I'm not buying it, so why do it? You're a good man Sigurd, explain what your thought process is.

---

Truthful?
I am winging it...
And I hope doing so that I'll make a leap in play style.
I am known for creating cover roles while being scum. I haven't done so while being town. Thought I'll try something in the sheer boredom of being a townie in Capo. :inquisitive:
I don't know if there are any real commies in the game and you who know me, know that I am full of bull. There are however many who don't know me and thinks this is the real deal :sneaky: I am even sending out welcome to the KGB PMs.
I even got a doctor in my cover organization. He might be working with you though.
There are two that I am not sure about.. who are reluctant to answer my calls.
We'll see, maybe I am making a trap for scum by comparing responses from "my men" when I challenge them.

Besides, I think it wise to not let you monopolize the town effort. :dizzy2:

This is Capo de Tutti Capi after all. :yes:


Sigurd

---

A "leap" in play style....

Sigurd, you disappoint me.

You say "boredom of being townie" while lying about your true identity.






That tells me that you have no love for the town. :stare:





That you find no joy in the harmonious, regimented, forced death marches of pro-town groups, :stare:




smoothly and fanatically organized by the once again self-appointed

pro-town dictator and supertownie extraordinaire,

Fuhrer Askthepizzaguy. :stare:






And I vill not tolerate zees kind of disobedience in my ranks! :stare:



I vill destroy anyvone who opposes Director Askzeepizzaguy! :stare:

What? you don't want to be my mindless puppet Sigurd? Why not? :stare:

What? You play these games to actually have fun? :stare:

Wouldn't you rather go mafia.... :yes:

You know, become a Made Gangster...

live the good life....

eat steak...

and lobster....

dipped in buttery batter

and covered in thousand dollar bills?

Wouldn't you rather bathe in a swimming pool

filled with naked, giggling women?

Wouldn't you rather form a nice hit squad and shut that infernal, incessant, insufferable Pizza up for good?



:evil:



Don't you yearn in your heart for a life of freedom from his tyrannical rule?

:evil:

Don't you want to become more than just a goody-goody lackey?

:evil:

Don't you want to achieve the dream?

:evil:

The dream 2 years in the making.... of finally having it all.... and overthrowing that PRETENTIOUS SMUG LITTLE JERK PIZZAGUY FOREVER!?!??!

:evil:

THAT DREAM HE DENIED YOU?


He could have had it all, but he had to throw it all away and be some "townie" who doesn't know how to have a good, good time.


HE WASN'T EVEN A TOWNIE,


HE WAS A STINKING NEUTRAL!!


A NEUTRAL!!!!

Click for theme music.

Yes.... you want this.... I can feel your anger. It gives you focus. Makes you stronger.

Are you going to kill me, Sigurd? I know you would certainly like to.

Well, you had your chance last night.

You and the others.

I was unarmed.

I was vulnerable.

I was just asking for it.

Take your weapons,

strike me down with them,

give in to your anger,

and take your rightful place as leader of this corrupt, rotten little town.

Turn it into a gangster's paradise.

Yes.... the hate is swelling in you now....

with each passing moment you make yourself more my Made Gangster.

You...

like all the others...

are now....


MINE.

_______________________

Wanna go mafia instead? Tis a lot more fun and I should know, what with openly taunting the town with my trenchcoat and fedora and tommy gun. Firing at whoever I wish at night in open defiance of the town. You know, organizing vigilante groups for the purposes of making wiseguys.

Making doctors for the purposes of protecting Mades and Wiseguys

and Lucas

and Dons who have no protection,

Doctors who will later go mafia.

Or how about just plain old wasting people's time protecting nothing of importance?

Yes.... how about that, Sigurd. Do you like that? Does it make your skin tingle with excitement?

How about turning everyone in sight into a gangster, and funneling them all directly toward my three, count them up, ONE, TWO, THREEEEEEE mafia family contacts.

How about that, Sigurd? Doesn't that sound like a whole lot more FUN. :brood:

Now, will you join me, or am I just wasting my valuable time, Sigurd? :stare:

I await your response.

Turn me over to the jedi council, and you'll have defeated me.....

but you won't be able to stop the coming storm.

I am the mafia.

I will make you or destroy you, in life, or in death.

There is no escape.

Join me, and together we can rule Fatlington as Sigurd and Askthepizzaguy...


the way it was always meant to be....


the way it should have gone....


Now.....


Take your rightful place at my side.


Learn to use the dark side of the force.


Don't make me destroy you....

This is Capo de tutti Capi after all....

~:pimp:

Okay so I was a bit of an overly theatrical megalomaniac but you can't deny I threw myself into character.

Sigurd could have just posted this in the public thread and you'd all know I wrote it and therefore lynch me, and found out I was being protected from that, and then the night actions would have started on me....

I risked a lot being such an openly evil bastard. Still, nobody exposed me until GeneralHankerchief had the inclination to do so. After that things got even easier for me because everyone wanted to be mafia except for folks like Erebus and Reidquat and Populus Romanus etc... everyone else wanted to have an openly evil scumbag to turn to and they wanted connections to the mafia.

That is what I sought to be, the gateway from town to scum, the portal between good and evil, the golden ticket to freedom and villainy. And for a time, that's what I was. And then I cranked up the evil all the way to eleven and became the main menace, so people would have someone they needed to defeat in order to win.

They came close, well fought.



Also that's enough Star Wars references already, Pizzaguy. :no:

I thought from about the 3rd day or so that ATPG was a don at that point, because he was the first (and almost only) one to contact me about the lynch protection. I guess the Dons didn't want to contact me directly? And maybe they neglected to pass on the codeword?

My role prevented me from winning directly as Capo, because I couldn't follow the wiseguy->made->don path. I was actually quite willing to contact the governor for any mafioso, but aside from ATPG the only one who actually contacted me about it was Renata. I stayed true to my word that I wasn't solely in Pizza's pocket, and would have been willing to protect Renata if asked -- but ironically one of my kids got sick and I would have missed the orders deadline. I'm actually glad that didn't happen, as I took a bit of pride in playing honorably to the extent that someone mafia-aligned can. My VC was to protect a member of the winning family, so it would have been beneficial to get a protection in on every family to hedge my bets.

As became common knowledge about 2/3 of the way in, at least among those who were in the "3 family" QT, I could have caused a 2nd place lynch if my lynch prediction was correct. One of the other mafia could have taken Pizza down by surprise via that mechanic, but nobody tried it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DaveShack

I thought from about the 3rd day or so that ATPG was a don at that point, because he was the first (and almost only) one to contact me about the lynch protection. I guess the Dons didn't want to contact me directly? And maybe they neglected to pass on the codeword?

My role prevented me from winning directly as Capo, because I couldn't follow the wiseguy->made->don path. I was actually quite willing to contact the governor for any mafioso, but aside from ATPG the only one who actually contacted me about it was Renata. I stayed true to my word that I wasn't solely in Pizza's pocket, and would have been willing to protect Renata if asked -- but ironically one of my kids got sick and I would have missed the orders deadline. I'm actually glad that didn't happen, as I took a bit of pride in playing honorably to the extent that someone mafia-aligned can. My VC was to protect a member of the winning family, so it would have been beneficial to get a protection in on every family to hedge my bets.

As became common knowledge about 2/3 of the way in, at least among those who were in the "3 family" QT, I could have caused a 2nd place lynch if my lynch prediction was correct. One of the other mafia could have taken Pizza down by surprise via that mechanic, but nobody tried it.

---

DaveShack I love you and I want to have your babies.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

Reason we targeted you was because you weren't having much success advancing and we needed cannon fodder to promote others.

If you had been more successful, you'd have been along for the ride.

A lot of people were targeted for the reason they weren't wiseguy yet, or weren't active enough.... folks who I felt I couldn't rely on in the endgame because they kept missing orders, or if they strayed from my night action groups, or if they couldn't get the job done for any reason. It didn't even have to be your fault, you just needed to lag behind the pack in terms of promotions, and then like a predator thinning out the herd, you'd be taken down for being slower than the others.

One of the things I hated was having to pick the people who died. In general, look at my kills.... who died early?

1) Non-voters
2) Non-talkers
3) Lurkers
4) Folks who talked too much about fight club (ACIN wouldn't shut his yap about what we were doing!) :stare:
5) Folks who weren't advancing very far down any path
6) Folks who weren't wiseguys yet

---

http://philosophistry.com/scans/2010/okay-face.jpg

You certainly could have relied on me, seeing as you'd helped me a lot, even if all the other mafia could probably reasonably expect me to be a Blu Spy, a Red Spy, and a Green Spy.

And come on, attacking me on Night 7 when I was only one hit away? Surely there were some more lurkers to kill at that point.

So ends the long and epic tale of a saga, bathed in blood.

Definitely a big thank you to GH and 'khaan for stepping up, and making this end-game even possible, and of course, to Seamus for even conceptualizing and dealing with the starting game activity and solo-managing 117 people, amazing :bow:

Congratulations to ATPG as well, the master weaver of intricate webs, for his well-earned victory.

This game I guess I'm just thankful that I didn't get offed like Night 2 such as in the previous iteration of the series, and whilst I was generally following along ATPG for the first half of the game, things got really interesting afterwards.

I think definitely, many of my plans to pit the mafia against the other mafia was foiled, but other than a few booboos I think that we gave the Corleone the much needed protections more often than not and very nearly gave ATPG a run for his money, and to that end, I am glad that the end game wasn't a walkover as might have been expected.

I'd like to thank all the chaps who were working with me in the townie side, though it seemed insurmountable at many times: Beefy, sturm, Erebus, guiri, edse, Populus, BillMC and any others. Whilst Seon was sometimes arguably a sneaky chap who was probably working with ATPG, I just want to thank him as well, and also SisterCoyote for sticking with us in that near-decisive round where ATPG was almost lynched. And of course, the Corleone chaps: Niklas, Renata, BL, Winston, GE. Talked a fair bit with them and tried to accommodate them as best as could be allowed, and while they were of course planning to backstab us if they had the chance to, it was good to have nearly snatched victory from the jaws of defeat together :bow:

Admittedly I was a tad disappointed that sturm was selected for the lynch because just a while before that, he had finally passed over leadership to me, expressing how that task was becoming more of a chore. I encouraged him to go and have himself some fun and it was quite saddening that that bright spark of his was extinguished so swiftly after that event. Still, his leadership was invaluable it was definitely a pleasure to work with him and the other townies (and mafia) :wink:

In the end, I'm just happy that I managed to stay true to the path that I envisioned for myself, and also managed to cause some grief to the various mafia factions, despite our very limited resources and comparatively limited intel. Not to mention, if not for that meddling lawyer and those papers (:stare:), I would have managed to help incite a successful lynch on ATPG twice :tongue:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

An interesting gem from Night 5 from myself to Seamus, before pizza revealed his intentions :wink:

Quote:

---

Just for the record, I'm rather suspicious of pizza's attempts to protect Sigurd and more so because of some of the exchanges where he had with me & the protection group when we attempted to inquire why Sigurd would be protected, especially so when GH seemed to imply that Sigurd would be vigged last night phase.

Of course in retrospect Sigurd wasn't vigged, but now thanks to pizza's response and very vehement attempts to pass it off as a joke, despite the fact that Tincow's reasoning being quite compelling (and very queer responses and strongly attacking reasoning that argued against potentially conflicting orders with the director), I feel like investigating him, but wonder what the result will potentially be.

---

The results came back that he was criminal, so in retrospect while I didn't really do much about the result, it definitely influenced my decision to go against ATPG when the time came. Maybe wrong reasons with the right results, but t'was fun to figure out that my suspicion was justified when the chips came down :laugh4:

Good game :bow:

Congratz Pizza and team.

Thanks GH, 'khan and Seamus for hosting.

I had fun.

For the record newcomers: I don't usually have such an iron grip on things and when they lynch me I usually freaking die.

Don't give up, keep playing here!

Hey, so are you going to get back to participating in games other than Capo, now? :sleepy:

So, over the course of the game, the Anachronism Hour with DJ Saucy Slice made sort of a Capo IV soundtrack. Here it is.



1. Saliva- Ladies and Gentlemen [Day One, 9/12]
2. Guns N Roses- Paradise City [Day Two, 9/15]
3. Lipps Inc- Funkytown [Day Three, 9/18]
4. P.O.D.- Youth of the nation [Day Four, 9/21]
5. Metallica- Seek and Destroy [Day Five, 9/24]
6. Evanescence- What you want [Day Five, 9/25]
7. Nine Inch Nails- The Hand that Feeds [Day Six, 9/27]
8. Hollywood Undead- Been to Hell [Day Seven, 10/1]
9. Alice in Chains- Rooster [Day Seven, 10/3]
10. Rage against the Machine- Bulls on Parade [Day Eight, 10/11]
11. Five Finger Death Punch- The Bleeding [Day Nine, 10/15]
12. Drowning Pool- Bodies [Day Ten, 10/18]
13. Foo Fighters- Walk [Day Eleven, 10/23]
14. Volbeat- A Warrior's Call [Day Twelve, 10/26]
15. Adelita's Way- Invincible [Night Twelve, 10/27]
16. Disturbed- Another way to die [Day Thirteen,10/28]
17. Megadeth- Public Enemy No. 1 [Day Fourteen, 11/2]
18. Cypress Hill- Rock Superstar [Day Fifteen, 11/5]
19. Papa Roach- No Matter What [Day Sixteen, 11/8]
20. Godsmack- Realign [Day Seventeen 11/11]
21. Metallica- One [Night Eighteen 11/18]
22. Pop Evil- Monster You Made [Night Twenty, 11/24]
23. Adelita's Way- The Collapse [Day Twenty-One, 11/28]
24. The Offspring- The Kids Aren't Alright [Day Twenty-Three, 12/3]

BONUS TRACKS

25. Dr. Evil- Hard Knock Life [hilarious, but couldn't find a place to put it.]
26. Rihanna- Umbrella [Director campaign theme song. "Umbrella" references my kill method in Capo III, IV]
27. Redlight King- Bullet in my hand [Would have been track 24, but could not find censored version of the song. TOO HOT for the .org] So only a link to youtube is allowed.
28. Godsmack- Awake [Would have used this song when I survived a lynch, but again, couldn't find censored version. TOO HOT for the .org]
29. Motorhead- The Game [Wanted to use this somewhere... never got around to it.]
30. Globus- Preliator ["Emperor's" theme I used to tempt Sigurd]

And one for the road:

31. Pearl Jam- Alive [For those of you who survived the game]





Obviously the songs I chose have meaning, and the meaning is usually fairly obvious. I tend to highlight the part of the lyrics I had in mind during those posts.



1. Saliva- Ladies and Gentlemen [Day One, 9/12]

This song is meant to welcome everyone to the game and tell people to keep an eye on me. I intended to put on a special performance this time.

2. Guns N Roses- Paradise City [Day Two, 9/15]

This song essentially gives a status report for the town. The happier and more upbeat the songs, the better the townies are doing. The darker and harder the song, the better the mafia are doing. I follow this pattern for many, many rounds. Fatlington by day two is essentially a townie's paradise, hence... Paradise City.

3. Lipps Inc- Funkytown [Day Three, 9/18]

Town still doing just fine, but things are getting interesting behind the scenes. By now, I've made a bunch of mafia contacts.

4. P.O.D.- Youth of the nation [Day Four, 9/21]

The townies are starting to bleed a bit. The first major violence is happening and the song is a bit less upbeat. The lyrics imply that many good people are getting gunned down.

5. Metallica- Seek and Destroy [Day Five, 9/24]

By now the mafia recruitment and kills are getting into full swing. The number of murders increased from here and people were doing lots of vig kills to become mafia.

6. Evanescence- What you want [Day Five, 9/25]

By now, I'm hinting very heavily to everyone that they should choose their own path no matter what... because thinking you've got to stay townie when you could advance to wiseguy, I felt, was trapping people. You should play the game any way you like, choose a career and go all the way, baby. I of course thought you should go mafia, but hey, some folks went doctor and did okay.

7. Nine Inch Nails- The Hand that Feeds [Day Six, 9/27]

This one is fairly obvious. Would the townies bite the hand that feeds them, or would they stay down on their knees? I was both a provider of organization, but also their main nemesis. So I'm dropping big ole hints about that here.

8. Hollywood Undead- Been to Hell [Day Seven, 10/1]

"I'm a wolf among the sheep" was very clear. I was announcing to the world that I was scummy, scummy scummy. Fitting that this round, Tincow and GH outed me pretty good. And of course, that leads to my lynch, and....

9. Alice in Chains- Rooster [Day Seven, 10/3]

This is my freaking theme song now. Ain't found a way to kill me yet!

10. Rage against the Machine- Bulls on Parade [Day Eight, 10/11]

This one is also very obvious. I was inviting people to "Rally round the Family" so, I wanted them to go mafia with me.

11. Five Finger Death Punch- The Bleeding [Day Nine, 10/15]

Ummmmm.... like 17 people got attacked night eight. So, the crying, the bleeding, the screaming.... this one isn't subtle either.

12. Drowning Pool- Bodies [Day Ten, 10/18]

More of the same. Massive death tolls every night. The mafia is in full kill everything mode. Still took a while to cut down the townie numbers!

13. Foo Fighters- Walk [Day Eleven, 10/23]

I make a play for the Directorship, because, "I never wanna die". The Directorship would protect me at night better than any Luca or Doctor. Me gaining the Directorship is pretty bad news for the town.

14. Volbeat- A Warrior's Call [Day Twelve, 10/26]

This is where the Barzini, Pentangeli, and other families start getting into it with the Stracchi/Cunio etc. The mafia wars really begin around this point.

15. Adelita's Way- Invincible [Night Twelve, 10/27]

I become Director, that plus the Lawyer means "Invincible" is fairly fitting.

16. Disturbed- Another way to die [Day Thirteen,10/28]

We had attacked Crazed Rabbit the night prior, and he survived, so we needed to find him another way to die...

17. Megadeth- Public Enemy No. 1 [Day Fourteen, 11/2]

This is in reference to so many folks wanting me dead, dead, dead, and there I was sitting in the Director's chair, immune from the police. Worst case scenario for the townies, really.

18. Cypress Hill- Rock Superstar [Day Fifteen, 11/5]

This one, with the altered lyrics, is an open invitation to everyone capable of doing so, to make a grab for Capo di Tutti Capi.

19. Papa Roach- No Matter What [Day Sixteen, 11/8]

This one was right after I instructed the Corleones how to spare themselves from not one, two, but three deaths at the same time that night. I was sort of throwing myself into the role of peacemaker. Of course, later on, I'd reverse that position again. The lyrics reference making it out of this place alive. So cheesy. So hammy. "Nothing can take us down tonight..." and "we will make it out alive..." what lies. What horrible lies.

20. Godsmack- Realign [Day Seventeen 11/11]

Here's where I decided to turn my back on the Cunio Don and forge my own family. Realign is quite literally what I was doing. So gnarlycharlie died and myself and Krill and Neri went and realigned as Clemenza.

21. Metallica- One [Night Eighteen 11/18]

This was posted just before I attacked the Corleone with full force. The result was intended for them to be dead or hopelessly crippled, and the lyrics allude to that.

22. Pop Evil- Monster You Made [Night Twenty, 11/24]

This one's obvious. The lyrics are also a bit of me, OOC, responding to my horrible behavior as Don Clemenza. But of course I couldn't become the monster that I was without dozens of players who enabled me to become that. So the lyrics have meaning there as well. It's not just the monster I've become, but the monster you made me.

23. Adelita's Way- The Collapse [Day Twenty-One, 11/28]

These lyrics are admittedly pretty harsh, but if they're viewed from an IC perspective from Don Clemenza, it makes a lot more sense. Pulling the strings, etc, is fitting because of how Clemenza controlled his empire. The Collapse also refers to the final destruction of the town resistance.

24. The Offspring- The Kids Aren't Alright [Day Twenty-Three, 12/3]

How can one little street swallow so many lives?

Brief fill-in cohost's commentary:

I'm not really sure what there is to say, really. This was never my game in the first place - khaan and I were just caretakers. Because of this I feel less comfortable about talking about its balancing issues, compared to my actual games where I happily take a hacksaw and chop away afterwards.

Also, I sent an email to Seamus letting him know the game was done, so hopefully he'll pop up here and offer his own thoughts, and I don't want to steal his thunder. :sweatdrop:

That said, I deliberately decided to be kept out of the loop for this game for a couple reasons. Yes, I transitioned as an impartial observer once I put the cohost's hat on... but I still really freaking wanted ATPG to die. Of course I wanted him to die. I had been gunning all-out for him for a few IRL days before and things were about to come to a head. Every single bit of information I had received only served to show me how solidified ATPG's position was.

How do you successfully run a game when you're actively rooting against one of its biggest players? Keep your head down, execute orders, and stay out of the loop. I think I more or less accomplished this.

Host GH isn't surprised by this result, but Player GH is disappointed. It all seemed so... anticlimactic.

That's really all I have to say about things. Again, I stayed out of the loop, so there really isn't any behind-the-scenes antics that I can shed light on. I'll let the game speak for itself. That's the way it ought to be, really.

khaan will have more to say about things, but the one issue we both had issue with was the inclusion of DaveShack's "Shyster" character. This is nothing against Dave, he won basically the highest level of victory possible and then some and played brilliantly, but we both feel very strongly about lynch-blockers and just the sanctity of the lynch in general. If you're lynched, you should be dead, period. It's the one finality in mafia games: No matter what happens, if you screw up here, there's no coming back from it. Anything that messes with the lynch (not vote-changing, the actual lynch) is far too overpowered.

All that said, congratulations to the Capo and all of the other winners. It was a well-earned victory and I was glad to be able to step in and see the game through. :bow:

If you wouldn't mind DaveShack, would you be able to post your role PM?

This post has been updated with more info about the song selection. Took me a while.



And yes, I want to see DaveShack's role PM, and LazyMcCrow's role PM, and Kagemusha's role Pm. PLEASE!! Those people had the really interesting roles.

And Andres' role Pm would be nice, since he was the Special Agent. BTW I didn't kill Tincow, Arjos, Andres, and a whole host of other really pro-town roles. Somehow, others got really lucky in that regard. I didn't betray you, Andres. I wanted to help the guy, actually.... because I think he was looking for either LazyMcCrow or Oh!TheLastDays, one of those two was probably his target. methinks OTLD was it, but I don't honestly know.

What a game! Thanks to Seamus, GH and Khaan :) Was a great read despite being out of the loop on basically everything :P

Paradise City is not a positive song. Which perfectly described the town as a paradise city.

Am I the only one who hears "The Game" and thinks of Hunter Hearst Helmsley?

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Originally Posted by classical_hero

Am I the only one who hears "The Game" and thinks of Hunter Hearst Helmsley?

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That's where I heard the song from originally. Come to think of it, I don't know of any other songs by Motorhead that I like or..... know of in the first place. :tongue2:

Here is my role pm.I was supposed to be a compelled killer of sorts. Though i feel that a good role was wasted and someone more active might have done very well in it.For me this was my low point in Capo history.Real life hampered me quite completely and i think i may have sent one or two set of orders in the game before i was killed.I havent followed the game.But once i have time i will surely read what happened at fatlington this time.In any case congratulations to the winners!:bow::

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

OOC Okay shadow warrior, random.org decided you get the toughest role play -- the compelled killer. Good luck!

This entire sheet of information is to be considered secret and is not to be revealed to other players unless specifically noted in the sheet below or with the express permission of the host.

Role: Compelled Serial Killer

Alignment: Townie, sort of

Summary: You are actually the nicest of persons…mostly. You just have this odd little quirk about helping others. Once you have helped them, it is necessary in the interest of cosmic justice for some of them to pay with their lives. You find this little quirk of yours embarrassing and frustrating – heaven knows it’s not something you really enjoy – but things just have to happen that way.

Victory Conditions: Your victory conditions are the same as those of your cover role. In addition, however, the following modifiers apply:
• If you manage to kill more than three players because of your primary compulsion you add two steps to your victory level.
• If you kill two or three players because of your primary compulsion you add one step to your victory level.
• If you kill more than five persons in your serial killer persona you add one step to your victory level.

Abilities:

Daytime:

1. You may vote to lynch or select as can any other player.

2. You may not attempt to fight off a lynch vote. You can respond with something akin to “I don’t wish to be lynched” or “Please don’t,” but may not mount a true defense. Feel free to have others defend you if you can.

Nightime:

Active Actions: You will have the abilities of your cover role, and:

1. On the first two nights out of every three night sequence, you must exercise your cover (Doctor) persona’s protection ability normally. You may not, however, participate in a townie vigilante or other kill group.

2. On each successive third night (3rd, 6th, 9th, etc.) you must attempt to kill one of your previous two night’s protectees (1st and 2nd night as target for 3rd; 4th or 5th for 6th etc.). If both are dead already, you will instead attempt to kill the 3rd place vote getter of the previous day’s lynch voting (you may attempt to kill up to 3 persons if more than one were tied for 3rd place in the lynch voting). This is your primary compulsion. All of your serial killer kills must have a consistent theme – this can be a repeated symbol, slogan or method. Ideally it should reflect the psychological motivation for your killings. Have fun.

3. If 3 attacks fail on the same target, or if the same target is protected successfully when you attack for three times, or if you are prevented from 3rd night kill efforts either by role blocking, directorship or some other intervening factor; you will suicide.

Passive Actions: You have none, unless specified by the secret abilities and traits PM.

Secret Abilities/Traits:

These are listed in your second pre-game PM and are not to be revealed or discussed during play…only used.

Regarding Investigations

1. If investigated by a made or detective, your status is likely to be “innocent,” as per your cover role. It is possible that the role-screening component of such an investigation may discover you, but it is more likely that they will discover your cover role instead. Repeat investigations of the same player carry a progressively greater chance of penetrating your cover role or even your true role.

2. If an investigation is launched on you during a 3rd night, your status will come back “unclear.” This may prove to be a source of risk.

Role Changing: You may not change roles, though your cover role may progress as usual.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

That's where I heard the song from originally. Come to think of it, I don't know of any other songs by Motorhead that I like or..... know of in the first place. :tongue2:

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I am a big wrestling fan. :grin:

Here's my role PM.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

The entirety of the following role sheet is to be considered RED material and revealed only under the circumstances outlined in the role sheet below or with the permission of the host.

Role: Shyster

Alignment: Mafia-aligned, no particular family.

Summary: Your real name is Storto Avocato, though you’ve taken pains to hide this fact. You seem to be nothing more than a typical small city attorney, but in reality you’ve been on retainer to The Commission for years. It is your job to smooth out difficulties for the mafia. You are not a person for “wetwork,” and you want to maintain your image of upstanding citizen while working quietly for the mafia to win. You may be contacted by the mafia family Dons to help them at their request, but you have no knowledge of their identities at the outset.

Victory Conditions: Use the chart below:

Decisive victory = one mafia family conquers Fatlington after you have saved one or more of their personnel.
Clear victory = one mafia family conquers Fatlington but did not use your assistance
Close victory = The town defeats the mafia but you have saved two or more mafia personnel.
Neither side wins = draw.
Close defeat = The town defeats the mafia, but you save one Mafioso.
Clear defeat = The town defeats the mafia; you save no Mafiosi.
Decisive defeat = The town defeats the mafia; you save no Mafiosi, and you are killed.
• Your personal survival moves you two steps up on this scale.

Abilities:

Daytime:

1. You may vote to lynch or select as can any other player.

2. All Five Mafia Dons know your name, but their subordinates do not (at the outset). In contacting you, a Don should use the codeword “Santino.”

3. As a continuation of one of your passive night actions, you may need to contact the host before the end of lynch voting with your decision. This is not an ability you have at the start.

Nightime:

Active Actions

1. In combination with 2 other townies, you can form a protection group (3 required) and attempt to protect one other player. If no attack occurs, nothing happens. If the target is attacked your group will save he r/him and receive credit for the save. More than 3 townies can work in the same group (limit 5), though this does not provide any other benefit aside from participation credit. If only 2 townies participate in a save effort and the target is attacked, that effort automatically fails. If only 1 townie attempts a save and the target is attacked, that effort fails and the townie has a 1 in 6 chance of dying (50%) or being revealed by name (50%) in that failed attempt.

2. In combination with 4 other townies, you can form a vigilante group (5 required) and attempt to kill one other player. More than 5 townies can work in the same group (limit 7), though this does not provide any other benefit aside from participation credit. If fewer than 5 townies participate in a kill effort, that effort automatically fails. If only 1 townie attempts a kill, that effort fails and the townie has a 1 in 6 chance of dying (50%) or being revealed by name (50%) in that failed attempt.

Passive Actions

1. Each night you may submit the name of one player who you suspect will be lynched the next day. If that player leads in the voting, a special message from the governor will prevent that player being lynched (that time). You will be credited with a save. After three such saves, you will gain the option to cause the lynching of the second place vote getter in place of the expected lynch target at your discretion. You must PM your decision on whether or not to lynch the second place recipient BEFORE the conclusion of lynch voting for that day.

Secret Abilities/Traits:

These are listed in your second pre-game PM and are not to be revealed or discussed during play…only used.

Regarding Investigations

1. If you are investigated by a detective, you will be evaluated as “innocent.” After saving three persons from a lynch, you will register as “unclear.” If you are involved in a successful killing, you will register as “guilty” thereafter.

Role Changing: You may not change roles. Your cover role may appear to change roles as a camouflage, but you will not be able to exceed standard townie active abilities.

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My first game on this site, a huge one, and randomization hands me this beauty. Yes, I agree it bordered on too powerful, at least in traditional mafia terms. But it fits right in with the theme, and I think it would be fine to reuse occasionally. Perhaps a slight nerf in the form of only being able to protect an individual once.

What was your red text, Kage?

Didn't play and didn't follow the game but I can't say I'm surprised with the end result. Congrats to Atpg and his family. :bow: Wish I could have been there in Fatlington.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Double A

What was your red text, Kage?

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There you go:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

Special Trait: Chameleon

You have always been able to charm people, dazzle them with bovine excrement, and have always had a skill at planting things to “pad your resume.” This allows you the ability to camouflage your investigation results to read as you wish them to read. For one night – b.s. has a short shelf life – you will display status results as you wish to: innocent, criminal, unclear, or even guilty. You will also temporarily decrease the investigator’s ability to penetrate your role. You may do this twice during the game.

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Same as me. Don't think I ever got scanned, though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reenk Roink

Didn't play and didn't follow the game but I can't say I'm surprised with the end result. Congrats to Atpg and his family. :bow: Wish I could have been there in Fatlington.

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You were. You made at least one appearance in I think Seamus or Generalhankerchief's writeups involving Club 30. :bow: In classic Reenk mode, of course.











My role PMs and Red Text:

Wiseguy unaligned (STARTING ROLE)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

Role: Wisseguy(gal)

Alignment: Unaligned

Summary: You’ve always played by your own rules when you could. A boring 9-5 and a gold watch after half your life never appealed to you. Maybe you’ve been working as a thief or a tough guy; perhaps you’ve just been cutting corners on the paperwork; maybe you’ve been on the grift. Whatever the dodge, you’re one of the wisenheimers who seem to cluster in Fatlington as do moths at a porch lamp – it is that kind of a town.
Whatever your story, you are the raw material of greatness in Fatlington. You may be recruited by the mafia, join together with other townies in a crusade against the Mafiosi, strike out on your own and try to take over the place with a few friends, or even all of the above. There is risk in Fatlington, but there is almost limitless potential as well. It is up to you.

Victory Conditions: If you remain loyal to the town, your victory conditions will be as below:

Town win with 41+% of original townie roles surviving = decisive victory.
Town win with 21-40% of original townie roles surviving = clear victory.
Town win with fewer than 20% of the original townie roles surviving = close victory.
Neither side wins = draw.
Town defeat with fewer than 10% of the orginal mafiosi or wiseguys surviving = close defeat.
Town defeat 11-25% of orginal mafiosi or wiseguys roles surviving = clear defeat.
Town defeat 26+% of orginal mafiosi or wiseguys roles surviving = decisive defeat.
-- Your personal survival moves you one category up on this scale.

If you choose to continue a life of crime, success will likely lead you to change roles and adopt those victory conditions instead.

Abilities:

Daytime:

1. You may vote to lynch or select as can any other player.

Nightime:

Active Actions

1. In combination with 2 other townies, you can form a protection group (3 required) and attempt to protect one other player. If no attack occurs, nothing happens. If the target is attacked your group will save her/him and receive credit for the save. More than 3 townies can work in the same group (limit 5), though this does not provide any other benefit aside from participation credit. If only 2 townies participate in a save effort and the target is attacked, that effort automatically fails. If you are the only protector and the target is attacked, that effort fails and you have a 1 in 6 chance of being revealed by name.

2. In combination with 4 other townies or with 2 other Wiseguys, you can form a vigilante group (5 required; or 3 wiseguys) and attempt to kill one other player. More than 5 townies can work in the same group (limit 7; limit 5 for a wiseguy hit), though this does not provide any other benefit aside from participation credit. If fewer than 5 townies or 3 wiseguys participate in a kill effort, that effort automatically fails. If you are the only attacker, that effort fails and you have a 1 in 6 chance of being revealed by name.

3. If you are sanctioned by a Mafia Don, you may attempt a kill as part of a two person team (limit 4 if extras are used), partnering with another wiseguy or a made gangster. If the attack fails, there is normally no chance of you being revealed. This is NOT true of an unsanctioned kill, which runs the same risk as for townie/wiseguy-only attack teams.

Passive Actions: You have no passive abilities aside from something in your secret abilities/traits.

Secret Abilities/Traits:

These are listed in your second pre-game PM and are not to be revealed or discussed during play…only used.

Regarding Investigations

1. If you are investigated by a made or a detective, it is likely that you will be revealed as a “criminal,” though a minority of wiseguys read as “unclear.” Should you be engaged in a successful killing, your status would read as “guilty” if you are investigated that same night. Thereafter, your status would be criminal even if you were “unclear” before then.

2. You are not able to investigate others.

Role Changing: One of the more interesting qualities of a Wiseguy is their ability to change roles.

1. If you perform two successful protections, you may (at random among your group) be offered the opportunity to cease being a Wiseguy and become a townie Doctor. You may refuse the offer, but it will not be repeated.

2. If you perform two successful protections and then perform two successful townie killings (not wiseguy teams), you will be given the opportunity to become a Rogue Detective. Rogues can both investigate and under some circumstances, solo-kill.


3. If you perform two sanctioned kills for a mafia family, and with the permission of that family’s Don, you may become a Made Gangster in that family and progress in that role.

4. If you perform four successful killings with a team of Wiseguys, one of that team will become a Made Gangster (unaligned). If you perform five successful killings with such a team, any and all with five kills become Made Gangsters. Two or more Mades can attempt to form their own family.

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ROLE PM 2 [RED TEXT]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

Special Trait: Connections

You have a friend with “connections” who you once saved from a jam. Once during a night phase of the game, though not on Night #1, you can ask this friend to provide you with information on a single player. The information you get (at the beginning of the 2nd day phase following) may not be complete, but will be better than a typical detective’s first efforts AND it will be completely accurate.

Special Trait: Recruiter’s Luck

You are unusually lucky. The first time you are successfully attacked, that attack will fail and you will survive without serious harm. Be careful, while you will survive the first attack in a manner that seems lucky, you will not survive subsequent attacks – even on the same night. Once you have used your luck it is gone. This trait is automatic and cannot be “turned off.”
This is a special reward trait for your contribution and is in addition to any other trait or traits.

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I used the "Connections" ability to verify Neri's result on Sasaki. I hadn't become a Made so I couldn't do investigations yet. Figured I wanted to be doubly sure on Sasaki being a Don, because that meant either I would have to try to win under Sasaki, or I'd have to try to kill Sasaki. I didn't want the result to be spoofed or altered.

I used up my luck (never used it in Capo III) in stepping down from the Director's seat and allowing Renata to hit me. If someone else had hit me too, I'd be dead. :beam:


Promoted to Made Gangster:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief

Congratulations. Don Cunnio has elevated you to the status of "Made Gangster" in his family (and it is an offer you can't refuse). You are now a confirmed mafioso, bound by the tradition of omerta.

NOTE: Don's name and family name are starred "inserts" in this role. Your family is Cunio, your Don may or may not be revealed to you at present (only the initial made is guaranteed this information).

Here is your new role; red PM information is unchanged:

Role: Made Gangster

Alignment: Mafioso; Family: Cunnio

Summary: You are a Made gangster and a key subordinate of your Don. You handle the “wetwork” for the family and are also able to use your sources to investigate others for recruitment/opportunities. As a member of your family, your goal is to have your family achieve primacy by a) eliminating the Dons of the other families and b) outnumbering the surviving townies and Mafiosi of different families. While your personal survival is important, a victory for your family is of equal or greater importance.

Victory Conditions: See below:

Decisive Victory = Your Don becomes Capo di Tutti Capi with at least 4 surviving family members.
Clear Victory = Your Don becomes Capo di Tutti Capi with 3 or fewer surviving family members.
Close Victory = A starting Mafia family wins besides your own.
Draw = neither side can claim victory.
Close Defeat = The town wins with fewer than 10% of the original townies and non-aligned wiseguys surviving OR a “Third party” claims victory.
Clear Defeat = The town wins with between 10% and 33% of the original townies and non-aligned wiseguys surviving.
Crushing Defeat = The town wins with more than 33% of the original townies and non-aligned wiseguys surviving.
- Your personal survival increases this level of victory by one.
- If you personally supplant your starting Don you will need to obtain victory conditions as a Don. This is also true if you are the one who arranges your Don’s removal, though in that case you will receive a bonus level of victory for your successful skullduggery as well. Warning, the price of failure in such a move is high and takes one victory level away.

Abilities:

1. You may not “go straight” – for you a life of mafia crime is a decided question.

2. If your family has lost its Don, or if your group has never had one, you may ascend to the Role of Don by: a) having at least one other Made in the family/group (2 or more needed), b) having all the other Made Gangsters in your family agree to your becoming the Don, and c) providing that you did not participate personally in the killing of the previous Don.

2. Your Don is gnarlycharlie.

Daytime:

1. You may vote to lynch or select as can any other player.

Nightime:

Active Actions

1. If desired, you may combine with 1 other Made or Wise Guy and can attempt to kill one target per night. If you have a wiseguy partner, the hit must be sanctioned by the Don to work. You may conduct one investigation as well.

2. You may combine with two other Mades to protect another mafioso. After two successful defenses [kill attempted and thwarted] one of you will be selected as a new Luca for the family (should you lack one). This is the only protection mission you can perform. You may conduct one investigation as well.

3. You may participate in a townie killing-group, functioning normally (as 1 of 5), but while doing so you may not conduct any investigations or conduct a family killing.

4. You may participate in a townie protection group, but you cannot provide any protection value so any protection team where you are not an “extra” WILL fail. You can conduct one investigation while “goofing off” this way, though you cannot conduct a family killing.

Passive Actions

1. On a night when you are not involved in any active night actions, you may conduct two investigations. On most other nights, you may conduct one. You may not investigate on a night you work with a townie kill team.

Secret Abilities/Traits:

These are listed in your second pre-game PM and are not to be revealed or discussed during play…only used.

Regarding Investigations

1. It is most probable that, if investigated by a Detective or by a Made Gangster, you will be discovered as “criminal.” You will only register as “guilty” on the night of a killing if you have participated in that killing.

2. When investigating a person, you will learn if they are “criminal” (Mades, Lucas, most Wise Guys), “Unclear” (Some Wise Guys, a few Townies) or “Innocent” (Dons, Most Townies, Detectives, Doctors, Surgeons, and the FBI Detective). You have a small chance of discovering the target’s role as well, but this chance is one level lower than the equivalent Detective investigation chance.

Role Changing:

1. After 3 or more successful sanctioned killings, and provided that your family has at least 5 members, you may be promoted Consigliare by the Don. Though of no advantage on active actions, you receive some additional protection and your investigative abilities are greatly increased.

2. If your family has lost its Don, or if your group has never had one, you may ascend to the Role of Don by: a) having at least one other Made in the family/group (2 or more needed), b) having all the other Made Gangsters in your family agree to your becoming the Don, and c) providing that you did not participate personally in the killing of the previous Don.

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Selected as Don Clemenza

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Quote:

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Originally Posted by issaikhaan

Role: Mafia Don

Alignment: Mafioso; Family: Clemenza

Summary: You are the boss of a crime family, and your goal is to take over Fatlington and become the Capo de Tutti Capi (Captain of Captains). To do this, you will need to eliminate all of the other Dons and establish a crime family that outnumbers the remaining Mafiosi and citizens of the town

Victory Conditions:

Decisive Victory = You become Capo de Tutti Capi with 4 or more surviving family members including yourself.
Clear Victory = You become Capo de Tutti Capi with 3 or fewer surviving family members including yourself, OR your family wins under the leadership of a new Don, despite your death.
Close Victory = A starting Mafia family wins besides your own OR a draw occurs but you personally survive.
Draw = neither side can claim victory.
Close Defeat = The town wins with fewer than 10% of the original townies and non-aligned wiseguys surviving OR a “Third party” claims victory.
Clear Defeat = The town wins with between 10% and 33% of the original townies and non-aligned wiseguys surviving.
Crushing Defeat = The town wins with more than 33% of the original townies and non-aligned wiseguys surviving.

Abilities:

1. Your death is part of the victory conditions for the other Dons, and will also severely limit your family’s chance of success as creating a new Don is time-consuming.

1. Your Made Gangsters are your active accomplices, investigating and/or attacking targets to help your family achieve success. For another Made Gangster to be created, they must qualify themselves by making sanctioned kills and must receive your permission to advance.

1. Any time after your family has acquired a 5^th (or more) member, you may (but do not have to) designate one Made Gangster – but not a Luca – as “Consigliare.” This player can than conduct up to 4 investigations on any night they are not participating in a kill, but zero on any night they are involved in a killing. The first night they are targeted for death after achieving Consigliare status, they have a 2 in 6 chance of avoiding death (this is a one-time only power resulting from some “gift” you have given them upon their promotion). The narration of their narrow escape may seem suspicious as it will not read the same way as would a doctor save.

1. You will choose some “signature” component that MUST feature in all of your family’s sanctioned killings. This may be a consistent method, a symbol or calling card, or some other distinctive characteristic – but it must be used in each killing without exception. You must notify me of this characteristic with your first nighttime PM.

Daytime:

1. You may vote to lynch or select as can any other player.

Nightime:

Active Actions

1. In combination with 2 other townies, you can form a protection group (3 required) and attempt to protect one other player. If no attack occurs, nothing happens. If the target is attacked your group will fail unless there are more than three townies as no Don can provide this form of protection. More than 3 townies can work in the same group (limit 5), though this does not provide any other benefit aside from participation credit. If only 2 townies participate in a save effort and the target is attacked, that effort automatically fails. If only you (by circumstance or betrayal) attempt a save and the target is attacked, that effort fails and there is a 1 in 36 chance of you being revealed by name in that failed attempt. Your Luca cannot protect you when you are in such a group.

1. In combination with 4 other townies, you can form a vigilante group (5 required) and attempt to kill one other player. More than 5 townies can work in the same group (limit 7), though this does not provide any other benefit aside from participation credit. If fewer than 5 townies participate in a kill effort, that effort automatically fails. If only you (by circumstance or betrayal) attempt such a kill, that effort fails and there is a 1 in 36 chance of you being revealed by name in that failed attempt. Your Luca cannot protect you when you are in such a group.

1. If you have no other family members, a solo Don may attempt to kill one target per night as a solo-killer. The trademark must be used.

Passive Actions

1. Twice per game, you may exercise a few of your many “favors” from non-playing members of Fatlington, and use these persons and their skills to temporarily camouflage your investigation status. Thus, for one night, you may choose to appear Innocent, Criminal, Guilty, or Unclear at your choice.

1. If you have no other family members left, you as a solo Don may conduct up to three investigations per night, receiving the same kind of results as a made gangster (Innocent, Criminal, Unclear) and a small chance to learn their role. You cannot both investigate and kill in the same night phase.

1. You must PM me with a note as to which kills are sanctioned by your family. An unsanctioned kill will not allow your participants to advance as quickly as will sanctioned kills.

Secret Abilities/Traits:

These are listed in your second pre-game PM and are not to be revealed or discussed during play…only used.

Regarding Investigations

1. If investigated by a Made Gangster or Detective, you will almost certainly be discovered to be “innocent.” This is true even if you kill as part of a vigilante group. You will only register as “criminal” or “guilty” if you have personally participated in a killing while operating solo. Penetration of your role is one step more difficult than it is for the other roles. So, for example, for a garden variety first investigation your chance of being discovered as the Don is 1 in 1296 rather than the usual 1 in 216.

2. If circumstances have you doing investigations, they will function as do those of a made gangster. When investigating a person, you will learn if they are “criminal” (Mades, Lucas, most Wise Guys), “Unclear” (Some Wise Guys, a few Townies) or “Innocent” (Dons, Most Townies, Detectives, Doctors, Surgeons, and the FBI Detective).

Role Changing: You man not change roles. For you, a life of mafia crime is a foregone conclusion.

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I'm not sure if my Made mission of "skullduggery" applies here or not, since I became Don of a different family and ended the Cunio line, but I did get the Mafia Don mission of decisive victory with 4 or more members of the family alive, and personally surviving to become Capo di Tutti Capi.

Anyway, the wiseguy unaligned ascends to the top position, similar to Scottishranger's rise in Capo II, except Scotty had to go from townie to wiseguy to made to Don, I think. I had a better start than him, being an unaligned made with luck.





I met the Lawyer through fyremarble, whose Made and Luca were either absent or not very communicative, and she was struggling so I helped her find recruits. I left her alone for most of the game but she left herself undefended on purpose, she felt killing was the way to go... and I felt a united family would be the winner, and it would be tricky to convince the Cunio to follow fyremarble, as it would have been tricky to convince the Stracchi to follow gnarlycharlie. Either one felt like a surrender, so a new family was the obvious choice, which meant both of them had to die. And of course that also meant every other Don needed to die as well.

I got the password from fyremarble and I used it to contact DaveShack and for a time, I pretended to be a Mafia Don. Given my behind the scenes activities, I basically was a mafia Don. I did the recruiting and I orchestrated the hits and I decided who was an enemy of the families. It's only fitting that I ended up being a mafia Don, because I played the role from the beginning in deed, if not by title.

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Special Trait: Connections

You have a friend with “connections” who you once saved from a jam. Once during a night phase of the game, though not on Night #1, you can ask this friend to provide you with information on a single player. The information you get (at the beginning of the 2nd day phase following) may not be complete, but will be better than a typical detective’s first efforts AND it will be completely accurate.

Special Trait: Recruiter’s Luck

You are unusually lucky. The first time you are successfully attacked, that attack will fail and you will survive without serious harm. Be careful, while you will survive the first attack in a manner that seems lucky, you will not survive subsequent attacks – even on the same night. Once you have used your luck it is gone. This trait is automatic and cannot be “turned off.”
This is a special reward trait for your contribution and is in addition to any other trait or traits.

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color=red]Special Trait: Connections

You have a friend with “connections” who you once saved from a jam. Once during a night phase of the game, though not on Night #1, you can ask this friend to provide you with information on a single player. The information you get (at the beginning of the 2nd day phase following) may not be complete, but will be better than a typical detective’s first efforts AND it will be completely accurate.



Special Trait: Sort-of-Lucky

You are “sort of” lucky. The first time you are attacked successfully, you will survive the attack. Unfortunately, you will be wounded and unable to defend yourself against any subsequent attacks on the same night – even if your normal abilities would let you do so. You will be in hospital all of the next day and subsequent night phase, which means that you cannot vote (but could still be lynched) and that you are safe for that subsequent night. You may not undertake any active actions on the night following your release either.
For example: If you are attacked on N2 and your sorta-luck saves you, you cannot vote on D3, you are safe on N3, but you cannot do an active action on N4.

Add this to the others.

Hmm...not so different, you and I.

Special Trait: Sort-of-Lucky

You are “sort of” lucky. The first time you are attacked successfully, you will survive the attack. Unfortunately, you will be wounded and unable to defend yourself against any subsequent attacks on the same night – even if your normal abilities would let you do so. You will be in hospital all of the next day and subsequent night phase, which means that you cannot vote (but could still be lynched) and that you are safe for that subsequent night. You may not undertake any active actions on the night following your release either.
For example: If you are attacked on N2 and your sorta-luck saves you, you cannot vote on D3, you are safe on N3, but you cannot do an active action on N4.

Special Trait: Spoofer

You have always enjoyed playing natural jokes, and some of those skills let you make all sorts of things appear to be “different,” at least for a little while. You can actually cause a selected player to display the status of your choice “guilty, unclear, criminal, innocent; susceptible, possibly susceptible, probably unsusceptible, or completely unsusceptible. They will display this status to any investigator on the night you choose – even if it is the wrong result for their style of investigation. You can do nothing to camouflage roles. You may do this twice.

Maybe I would have used that ability at some point if everyone wasn't so obviously mafia...

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Originally Posted by Choxorn

Special Trait: Sort-of-Lucky

You are “sort of” lucky. The first time you are attacked successfully, you will survive the attack. Unfortunately, you will be wounded and unable to defend yourself against any subsequent attacks on the same night – even if your normal abilities would let you do so. You will be in hospital all of the next day and subsequent night phase, which means that you cannot vote (but could still be lynched) and that you are safe for that subsequent night. You may not undertake any active actions on the night following your release either.
For example: If you are attacked on N2 and your sorta-luck saves you, you cannot vote on D3, you are safe on N3, but you cannot do an active action on N4.

Special Trait: Spoofer

You have always enjoyed playing natural jokes, and some of those skills let you make all sorts of things appear to be “different,” at least for a little while. You can actually cause a selected player to display the status of your choice “guilty, unclear, criminal, innocent; susceptible, possibly susceptible, probably unsusceptible, or completely unsusceptible. They will display this status to any investigator on the night you choose – even if it is the wrong result for their style of investigation. You can do nothing to camouflage roles. You may do this twice.

Maybe I would have used that ability at some point if everyone wasn't so obviously mafia...

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I used spoofer at the start of the game to get rid of Subotan. I planted a guilty on him because i knew he would be investigated and hoped it would be his downfall. after that i became rogue but the role turned out to be less great than before. i knew that before i accepted it but it was kinda lame to decline it after i tried so hard to get it.

My thanks to the hosts for running the show, and Pizza for bringing me here and being a formidable opponent. I enjoyed it at first, but I have to say that as I learned the true nature of the beast (backstabbing, politicking, misinformation campaigns, etc.) I wasn't having as good a time. My personal drama didn't help matters. DIY seemed like a true townie ally and had already helped with strategy, so I handed off command to him. Looking back, I don't think we ever had a chance, not even the slim chance I thought we did.

One thing has been bugging me though: Sigurd, what the :daisy: was up with your Don Cunio accusations? I mean really. I just don't get it.

So it's time for an honest assessment and review. I'll try to keep this relatively short. Some of my observations and thoughts, from both playing and co-hosting.

First off, once again, I'd like to thank everyone for their patience. It took us a while to get our heads wrapped around everything when we had to take over. The sheer amount of data was staggering, well over anything I'd done. Maybe a bit less so for GH, having hosted Pirate Ship at least. Simply trying to get everything organized into a comprehensible system was a huge task, to which much thanks must go to GH. Those first few phases were an arduous task of trying to double check and triple check to make sure nothing was missed or improperly allocated for, and even there were issues. In other words, it's not something I'm chomping at the bit to try again. I do like hosting, but this was simply a lot, even as co-host.

Being honest, I didn't enjoy hosting this. At all. The workload was only a small part of it. When Seamus informed us of his inability to continue hosting, we both knew the game had to go on. We both knew it was going to be a lot of work to keep everything in order. However, the revelation of just how the game was going on behind the scenes didn't please me much. This is me speaking personally here. I don't enjoy centralization in mafia. I feel like every person or small group should forge their own path to success. That's why I never informed Pizza of my role. That was why I was doing what I could to leak every bit of info I could from Pizza to GH. I was the one who leaked to GH about a third to half of his data. I was sure that we'd had everything in order to ultimately take the network down.

But that leads to what infuriated me. The shyster. As Gh said, this is nothing against Daveshack- he played the role well, did almost everything he could to attain victory. There is no fault to him for doing so. But I believe in what GH referred to as the "sanctity" of the lynch. The whole crux of mafia is the lynch. It's the central focus of the game. It's the one thing that gives the entire collective the ability to press the giant red button on someone and say "No. No more. Now you die." In more traditional games, it is literally the only way for the town to win. Rendering it moot is one of the things I vow to never do in a game I host, and I feel like that's what happened here. Pizza, you are entirely correct that you were vulnerable at many points. But I think you underestimate the crippling blow to morale that the shyster caused. The town's big red button was disabled. People gave their biggest rally to take you down, only to have a single person tell the collective "no. Not today." Even if the shyster had this as a one time ability, I can't help but feel like it dampened the motivation of people to participate in the lynch. I personally feel like the sharp drop in activity is attributable to this. But it was even more staggering than that- the shyster had the ability to stop every lynch- every single one. And then, lastly, to give the shyster connections to every single mob boss was unfathomable to me. I almost feel like it was a soft pitch role. Nobody else was given so much information, for no reason other than being the right role.

/sigh

Going to backtrack now. The centralization issue was the other one that I was concerned about. I know that there were people who, like me, agreed to do work for Pizza to get "into the network". But it seemed like a lot of people were simply content to let Pizza pick a target for them to do something, as long as it got them promoted. I understand wanting to be promoted from being a regular townsperson- being able to do things at night is more interesting. But... I dunno, I just feel like the game would have been more interesting had there not been a central organizer, meticulously planning everyone's movements to his own desires. Honestly, watching the game from afar, I was quite bored. Granted, that was while not having access to the qt's that apparently everyone but the hosts did. But still- the huge rise of mafioso, Pizza, and Daveshack created such a feeling in inevitability that I didn't look forward to the thread updates, especially during lynch time. When the original Dons finally broke out into conflict, I was neither surprised nor hopeful that it would help balance the game out. Because I figured that, at minimum, one of the other original bosses would simply absorb the large numbers of mades and wiseguys that would be left floating, or otherwise, a new Don(pizza) would take them. When Pizza finally revealed to us he wished to backstab his Don, I wasn't remotely surprised- I was only surprised that Pizza ever volunteered himself to becoming a made in the first place.

The only point I can say that I was genuinely intrigued was N19. When Dave was blocked, I surmised that there was some kind of plan to get Pizza lynched. And it was a valiant effort, if a bit belated. The rest of the game, I was disappointed with the seeming acceptance of failure that seemed to permeate it. I can understand some of the sentiment- see back on the discussion on the shyster role. But people made no effort to bring Pizza down for lynch for so long, even handing him the director's seat while he whistled a jaunty, scummy tune to everyone. And nobody made an effort to bring down Daveshack. My impression is that plenty of people were aware of him to do it, but simply didn't want to take the gamble to bring him down. I can't imagine anyone was figuring during the midgame that Pizza was going to simply follow along in a neutral holding pattern. I wondered if I was giving Pizza too much credit, but his victory proves me accurate. I thought people knew that he was ambitious- heck, he'd declared that many times. But people simply refused to do anything about the queen piece. It's just disappointing because so many decided to just go with the flow to try and win, rather than follow Pizza's example of going for the gold and winning with style. I'm sure that for Pizza, he got the kind of rush that one only gets when they pull off a long thought out strategy for ultimate victory. Which he deserves, for all the effort he put into this. I just wish that more had tried the same.

Thanks for listening to my small rant. I don't mean to offend, and I don't mean to be targeting any one person out for judgment. I just wanted to put my honest thoughts out. It's been a long experience, and I might be a bit jaded at the moment, and I might feel better about the game in a while. Not sure. Anyways, peace out, y'all. ~:wave: I hope to see people stick around and try other, different games. Even if I wasn't thrilled with how this game went, it's undeniable that it was good to see plenty of new faces around.

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Originally Posted by issaikhaan

But that leads to what infuriated me. The shyster. As Gh said, this is nothing against Daveshack- he played the role well, did almost everything he could to attain victory. There is no fault to him for doing so. But I believe in what GH referred to as the "sanctity" of the lynch. The whole crux of mafia is the lynch. It's the central focus of the game. It's the one thing that gives the entire collective the ability to press the giant red button on someone and say "No. No more. Now you die." In more traditional games, it is literally the only way for the town to win. Rendering it moot is one of the things I vow to never do in a game I host, and I feel like that's what happened here. Pizza, you are entirely correct that you were vulnerable at many points. But I think you underestimate the crippling blow to morale that the shyster caused. The town's big red button was disabled. People gave their biggest rally to take you down, only to have a single person tell the collective "no. Not today." Even if the shyster had this as a one time ability, I can't help but feel like it dampened the motivation of people to participate in the lynch. I personally feel like the sharp drop in activity is attributable to this. But it was even more staggering than that- the shyster had the ability to stop every lynch- every single one. And then, lastly, to give the shyster connections to every single mob boss was unfathomable to me. I almost feel like it was a soft pitch role. Nobody else was given so much information, for no reason other than being the right role.

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I'd like to elaborate on this point a bit. Again, this is nothing against the player, just the role.

Upon the revelation that ATPG had survived the lynch even with a clear majority of votes, it was like all of the air had just been let out of a very large balloon. TinCow and I were having heated arguments back and forth over PM over the exact nature of ATPG's survival, wondering whether it was sort of some innate protection or an outside role. We eventually deduced that it was an outside role that saved him, but I remember the conversation being something along the lines of "We'll just go after Pizza again the next day, there's no way the role can save the same person two days in a row. It's too overpowered." Talking separately to khaan, we came to the same conclusion. We were angry. We were demoralized. The lynch failed. The lynch is never supposed to fail.

Speaking strictly for myself now, I was able to keep it together and recover after a little bit, putting together a rough plan for the next phase. But the entire time, the fear and the uncertainty was gnawing away at me. The sacred line had been crossed. Because of that, everything was thrown into doubt. Then khaan and I had to step in and cohost, and of course any further coordination efforts stopped dead.

If you were on the opposing side during/after the first Shyster save, I don't think you can ever possibly understand how much of an effect it had on us. Nothing was certain anymore. Somehow there were still enough votes on ATPG on D8 (the first day phase after we had taken over) to get him tied for the lynch, and Dave stepped in again, and that was it. Pizza's aura of invincibility was fully operational. The game was lost at that point. The rest of it was just choreography.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

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Originally Posted by issaikhaan

So it's time for an honest assessment and review. I'll try to keep this relatively short. Some of my observations and thoughts, from both playing and co-hosting.

First off, once again, I'd like to thank everyone for their patience. It took us a while to get our heads wrapped around everything when we had to take over. The sheer amount of data was staggering, well over anything I'd done. Maybe a bit less so for GH, having hosted Pirate Ship at least. Simply trying to get everything organized into a comprehensible system was a huge task, to which much thanks must go to GH. Those first few phases were an arduous task of trying to double check and triple check to make sure nothing was missed or improperly allocated for, and even there were issues. In other words, it's not something I'm chomping at the bit to try again. I do like hosting, but this was simply a lot, even as co-host.

Being honest, I didn't enjoy hosting this. At all. The workload was only a small part of it. When Seamus informed us of his inability to continue hosting, we both knew the game had to go on. We both knew it was going to be a lot of work to keep everything in order. However, the revelation of just how the game was going on behind the scenes didn't please me much. This is me speaking personally here. I don't enjoy centralization in mafia. I feel like every person or small group should forge their own path to success. That's why I never informed Pizza of my role. That was why I was doing what I could to leak every bit of info I could from Pizza to GH. I was the one who leaked to GH about a third to half of his data. I was sure that we'd had everything in order to ultimately take the network down.

But that leads to what infuriated me. The shyster. As Gh said, this is nothing against Daveshack- he played the role well, did almost everything he could to attain victory. There is no fault to him for doing so. But I believe in what GH referred to as the "sanctity" of the lynch. The whole crux of mafia is the lynch. It's the central focus of the game. It's the one thing that gives the entire collective the ability to press the giant red button on someone and say "No. No more. Now you die." In more traditional games, it is literally the only way for the town to win. Rendering it moot is one of the things I vow to never do in a game I host, and I feel like that's what happened here.

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^Completely understandable.

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Pizza, you are entirely correct that you were vulnerable at many points. But I think you underestimate the crippling blow to morale that the shyster caused.

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Not entirely true, I was counting on it. Almost everything I did after I was revealed was for the purposes of demoralizing the town side to the point where investigators wouldn't even bother investigating... townies wouldn't bother voting... nobody that was incorruptible would feel like doing anything, and only the townies that could go mafia would bother doing anything.

We were still incredibly outnumbered and I didn't want people voting to pick off allied gangsters. I wanted their efforts to be focused solely on me, so that when their efforts against me failed, their will to fight would be shaken.

I did everything I could to spare every single gangster from the lynch until landlubber's team turned against me. Everyone, including prospective gangsters who were townies, like Sigurd. I threw my body in front of the lynch and did everything I could to stop every gangster from death. The lawyer was covering me but I was doing whatever I could to spare everyone else.

I tried to see to it that no Made gangster died on my watch unless they were specifically my enemy.

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The town's big red button was disabled.

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If they were using it on me, yes. But they could have used it on any gangster. Besides, they would never ever win this game by the lynch alone. It would take them 30 phases. That much is pretty factual.

They needed to be doing vigilante kills, and everyone who was doing vigilante kills was going mafia.

Town lost because it wanted to not be townie anymore, not because of the shyster. Once town decided it was mafia, town lost the game. I understand how massive a blow the shyster was, but I think you're underestimating how massive a blow having so many corruptible townies was. Before I was exposed, and before the mafia were making much progress, I spoke to people and they wanted to be mafia. That's why I was able to take such risks, they weren't very risky at all. The only thing going on was the pretense that people were good townies still, so people didn't want to be openly scummy.

But behind the scenes, they were quietly scummy. Town really ceased to be when it decided to go bad, en masse, and I personally assisted in convincing over half of those folks to turn their backs on the town.

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People gave their biggest rally to take you down, only to have a single person tell the collective "no. Not today." Even if the shyster had this as a one time ability, I can't help but feel like it dampened the motivation of people to participate in the lynch. I personally feel like the sharp drop in activity is attributable to this.

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I concur with this assessment. Town's morale suffered greatly when the shyster kept me alive not once, but twice in a row, and I did everything I could to make sure I would be lynched a second time in a row. If they had lynched another gangster instead, or the shyster itself, they would have still been in the game. I wanted to take them out of the game as fast as possible, and make everyone believe town was finished, and it was time to go mafia.

Then, they'd likely turn to me or one of my allies to become mafia. Yes I understand exactly what the shyster did, and its presence in Capo is questionable to say the least. But it was there and almost no one else was bothering to use it, and I was exactly the wrong person to have that kind of protection. You combine that with the mafia gaining control of the vote and making me Director, and I'm not at all surprised with the reaction of the resistance to give up or feel kicked in the stomach. That was a horrible combination for the town.

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But it was even more staggering than that- the shyster had the ability to stop every lynch- every single one. And then, lastly, to give the shyster connections to every single mob boss was unfathomable to me. I almost feel like it was a soft pitch role. Nobody else was given so much information, for no reason other than being the right role.

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Oh yes. I can see how Seamus originally intended the role, and it would make sense.

Imagine a role that could guess which of 5 Dons was going to be lynched that day, and tried to spare one of them. Guess correctly, and deal a serious blow to town morale and keep one of the starting Dons alive, the starting Dons who have a rough go of it.

Sure, in the hands of just the mafia Dons, they'd fight over his power and it would be somewhat balanced.

The FATAL flaw was allowing the shyster to spare any player from the lynch. Not just the Dons, but anyone.... even a wiseguy, unaligned to the mob.

How could I afford such a powerful lawyer as some two-bit goon? I couldn't. That kind of power shouldn't have been possible for me.

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Going to backtrack now. The centralization issue was the other one that I was concerned about. I know that there were people who, like me, agreed to do work for Pizza to get "into the network". But it seemed like a lot of people were simply content to let Pizza pick a target for them to do something, as long as it got them promoted. I understand wanting to be promoted from being a regular townsperson- being able to do things at night is more interesting. But... I dunno, I just feel like the game would have been more interesting had there not been a central organizer, meticulously planning everyone's movements to his own desires. Honestly, watching the game from afar, I was quite bored. Granted, that was while not having access to the qt's that apparently everyone but the hosts did.

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No, while there was a lot of behind the scenes drama, there was a lull in the action around the middle which made me feel like having everything under my control was overkill.

I was also exhausted from all the "meticulous planning" and needed a break. I told everyone, town and mafia, to do their own thing and for a time, many rounds, they were free from me. But everything still went the same. Once the snowball was rolling it just kept getting bigger and more out of control. It didn't need me anymore, it was already gargantuan.

When there was so little resistance to what I was doing, I admit I got a little depressed as well. If people had rallied together, infiltrated my network, asked the right questions of the right people, and just found out who the shyster was and tried to kill him....

The guy I left intentionally defenseless most of the latter half because it was the only way the game even seemed fair to me...

We could have had a big war and I could have died and all hell would have broken loose. Instead some people got too defeatist and packed up. Others lacked necessary allies to bring us down. A big united faction versus a lot of divided factions who were demoralized was an easy contest at times.

The challenge was surviving the mafia versus mafia wars, where no one's allegiance was set in stone. The game got a lot more interesting to me then. Before that it was just hacking apart a disenchanted town who wasn't being protected very well by all those doctors I helped them create. I kept picking folks that would seem to have been a low priority for protection, if I were still running the town. So I played as if I was still running the town and I picked whoever I wouldn't have protected as my targets.

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But still- the huge rise of mafioso, Pizza, and Daveshack created such a feeling in inevitability that I didn't look forward to the thread updates, especially during lynch time. When the original Dons finally broke out into conflict, I was neither surprised nor hopeful that it would help balance the game out. Because I figured that, at minimum, one of the other original bosses would simply absorb the large numbers of mades and wiseguys that would be left floating, or otherwise, a new Don(pizza) would take them. When Pizza finally revealed to us he wished to backstab his Don, I wasn't remotely surprised- I was only surprised that Pizza ever volunteered himself to becoming a made in the first place.

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My dream was finding some worthy yet oft-overlooked player, building them up to made, and letting them go to town on the town.... whichever one was the most clever and ruthless would be the one I'd support as Capo, and I would have followed them as their Made.

Things didn't go as I planned, and once again in a power vacuum, around round 17 I decided it was time to fill the vacuum again and challenge whoever else tried to become king of the mountain. Thankfully there were some actually trying for the prize or the ending would have been 1000 times lamer.

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The only point I can say that I was genuinely intrigued was N19. When Dave was blocked, I surmised that there was some kind of plan to get Pizza lynched. And it was a valiant effort, if a bit belated. The rest of the game, I was disappointed with the seeming acceptance of failure that seemed to permeate it. I can understand some of the sentiment- see back on the discussion on the shyster role. But people made no effort to bring Pizza down for lynch for so long, even handing him the director's seat while he whistled a jaunty, scummy tune to everyone. And nobody made an effort to bring down Daveshack.

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That puzzled me to no end.

In the game, during the game, when the victory was still on the line, I told people who DaveShack was. As in everyone still alive. I posted it in-thread.

I leaked my own notes to every Don, and leaked my notes to half the scums in the game.... he was a known quantity and I was indeed leaving him undefended, on purpose, because I knew that even though it wasn't completely unfair for a role like his to exist, me being able to protect both him and myself for certain every round didn't seem particularly like I was risking much and it would have made the game boring for me.

I decided to only protect him when I thought he would be attacked, like at the end after I said I left him undefended for rounds and rounds and rounds. Maybe someone would try something then, nobody did.

The Insurrection to bring down Askthepizzaguy would have worked if it was focused on DaveShack and everyone showed up. And it should have happened like 5-8 rounds before that. After Dave died, I would have been completely boned.

I was waiting for that to happen, although I wasn't playing for a loss, I was playing in a way that intentionally exposed key weaknesses that nobody even tried to hit until it was basically too late.

Very odd.

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My impression is that plenty of people were aware of him to do it, but simply didn't want to take the gamble to bring him down.

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Allied mafia I can understand;

Why didn't the Barzini try to reveal DaveShack?

Why didn't the Pentangeli try to reveal DaveShack?

Why didn't the Corleone try to destroy DaveShack?

Why didn't the townies even try once to vig-kill him or lynch him once they knew who he was? Town knew I had enemies, enemies which would leap at the chance to remove my lawyer and therefore, me.

Didn't take the shot. No idea why not.

I couldn't have broken their morale that much, some folks were still fighting.

Listen, the town could have gotten one of their rogue detectives and paired them up with a like-minded Made gangster and did a sanctioned hit on DaveShack. They could have formed a vig squad until the very late game. Why didn't anyone try to kill Dave?

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I can't imagine anyone was figuring during the midgame that Pizza was going to simply follow along in a neutral holding pattern. I wondered if I was giving Pizza too much credit, but his victory proves me accurate. I thought people knew that he was ambitious- heck, he'd declared that many times. But people simply refused to do anything about the queen piece. It's just disappointing because so many decided to just go with the flow to try and win, rather than follow Pizza's example of going for the gold and winning with style. I'm sure that for Pizza, he got the kind of rush that one only gets when they pull off a long thought out strategy for ultimate victory. Which he deserves, for all the effort he put into this. I just wish that more had tried the same.

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I felt like Sasaki/Scottishranger and the Pentangeli gave it a good effort, but they were overwhelmed; they struck too early and without enough support, so they were easy pickings.

They needed more gangsters, doctors, something.

The Corleones gave a very brave effort but I think I schmoozed them into being pacified, even if their intentions were usually hostile toward me (see their QTs)

Chaotix was amazing, always trying to win it without resorting to me.

Krill and some others in the Stracchi/Cunio would have gone independent if I weren't allied to them. They stuck with me because I promised I'd go independent with them and form a final, separate family that included them. Better chance of winning that way, than doing it divided.

I did kill off a whole lot of folks I felt would try to go for the gold for themselves, but not all. I felt the Corleone people were very likely to break away and try to win it for themselves... or at least, without me.

But I feel what you're saying. I kept looking for the super ambitious rival, and I found that all my super ambitious rivals were either with much smaller families or they were dead, or feuding with each other.

I did feel like some folks weren't putting into it what I was, but then again it might have been the demoralizing effects of not only the size and scope of the alliance I threw together, but also the doctor protection, lawyer protection, and eventually the Directorship. That had to keep some folks down.

That said, I didn't think anything I did would demoralize folks like Chaotix, Sasaki, Crazed Rabbit, etc, because me doing my thing usually just makes them see red and try to bring me down even harder. I didn't even go for killing those guys until they had either attacked the Stracchi/Cunio or tried to undermine me personally. I wanted desperately to see what they would do in this situation.

They all fought but they had a lack of people willing to fight with them. In a game this size, that's surprising. These folks are very dangerous and they could have beaten me easily with some supporters.

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Thanks for listening to my small rant. I don't mean to offend, and I don't mean to be targeting any one person out for judgment. I just wanted to put my honest thoughts out. It's been a long experience, and I might be a bit jaded at the moment, and I might feel better about the game in a while. Not sure. Anyways, peace out, y'all. ~:wave: I hope to see people stick around and try other, different games. Even if I wasn't thrilled with how this game went, it's undeniable that it was good to see plenty of new faces around.

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I appreciate your perspectives, yours and GH's. I share a lot of your concerns. Sometimes things felt too cheap and too overpowered.

I got a bit disenchanted with the game at times.

I'll get into my own personal lamentations soon, because believe it or not, there was a lot of this game that I didn't find fun and there were many times I wanted to just resign. Some of it was my fault, some of it was circumstance, and some of it was how others behave around me and toward me.

Don't get me wrong, I still found ways to have fun and in particular, I enjoyed the character I played and I enjoyed throwing everything I could at the town and any rival mafiosi I could, as openly as possible, guffawing in-character all the way. I also enjoyed pulling off the win, but there were parts of the game that felt forced, hollow, and uninteresting.

That said, I am also going to argue that this game was not at all imbalanced and defend Seamus' game and his vision of the game. While the game itself was different perhaps than his vision of it, what it was, was balanced. It became unbalanced due to many factors which I want to address. I'll probably address that stuff with my next post.

There was a lot of room for fairness and fun in this game and it was broken not by design, and not by any one role or one player either. That will be my thesis for Capo IV. I'll explain why I think so and show why it can be argued that I'm correct on that. Permit me to demonstrate.

Short answer: You can't have it both ways. You can't say, "oh, trust me, the demoralization effect and everything that ruined the town was all part of an elaborately designed effort on my part" and then at the same time go "I can't understand why counter-plans X, Y, and Z never materialized when I deliberately left them open." These strategies are intentionally counter-productive. Obviously one of them is going to win out.

I was playing for a demoralizing effect, yes. But there were plenty of folks who were plenty gung-ho about trying to bring me down. That it didn't occur to any of the Pentangeli/Barzini/Corleone or townies at the end to wipe out DaveShack is what I find puzzling. They had motive and opportunity and not 100% of them had given up, not even close.

You can convince me that it knocked the fight out of lots of folks, which was my intent, but you'll never convince me that everyone gave up and that it wouldn't have occurred to someone to take out the lawyer, someone with the ability to out the lawyer such as the mafia families I was a rival toward, or how about just a small group of townies in the latter third of the game where he was exposed and known.

That's a stretch. It's not realistic. I get your gripes with the shyster's role and I understand them, but the goal should have been to remove the shyster and there were people in the game with knowledge of who he was, and they sat on that info and did nothing with it.

That's not something you can explain by demoralizing. If someone tries to use a gun on a guy with a bulletoproof vest and it fails twice, but they look directly at the "drop 10 ton anvil on head" button and don't press it, that's not just being demoralized, that's dropping the ball.

Okay, look at it from the other side's perspective. Your leaving DaveShack open for such a long period of time was hidden. You had been playing a massively overconfident mafioso for a long time now whose motives had been established as win at all costs. You were the archetype of evil. You were reveling in everyone wanting to bring you down, enjoying the challenge, and enjoying crushing everyone's skull who tried. This is what those who opposed you saw, regardless of whether it was true or not.

Now, take a walk in their shoes for a minute. They're looking for cracks in the system. Are they going to expect your ace in the hole to be so deliberately open? No, of course not. That would be the waste of a night action better spent elsewhere. It would be almost as foolish as attacking you directly. They're looking for people to turn, to whittle down your numbers. They're not going to go after the keystone to your entire operation.

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Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

Not entirely true, I was counting on it. Almost everything I did after I was revealed was for the purposes of demoralizing the town side to the point where investigators wouldn't even bother investigating... townies wouldn't bother voting... nobody that was incorruptible would feel like doing anything, and only the townies that could go mafia would bother doing anything.

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This essentially answers your confusion as to why you and Dave were able to skate through so much of the midgame. You take the wind out of everyone's sails, and their boat flails. When someone can go to the nuclear pyre twice and survive, impression pretty much becomes reality at that point. Similarly, for what reason would people have to believe you wouldn't keep one of your loyal self-created doctors to sit on Dave during the night? Especially once you became director, freeing up a doc for the duty.

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If they were using it on me, yes. But they could have used it on any gangster. Besides, they would never ever win this game by the lynch alone. It would take them 30 phases. That much is pretty factual.

They needed to be doing vigilante kills, and everyone who was doing vigilante kills was going mafia.

Town lost because it wanted to not be townie anymore, not because of the shyster. Once town decided it was mafia, town lost the game. I understand how massive a blow the shyster was, but I think you're underestimating how massive a blow having so many corruptible townies was. Before I was exposed, and before the mafia were making much progress, I spoke to people and they wanted to be mafia. That's why I was able to take such risks, they weren't very risky at all. The only thing going on was the pretense that people were good townies still, so people didn't want to be openly scummy.

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You're correct that a large percentage of the vig crews were aiming for mafia status. I still, however, feel like this comes back to the Shyster. Who wouldn't want to go mafia at that point? They just saw someone exposed for bragging about being mafia survive not one, but two lynches. If they had any doubts about the viability of going mafia, those vanished. Meanwhile, what incentive does the town have to stay town? They can openly proclaim themselves mafia without fear of lynch, and joining a mafia family would keep you from being night killed, at least for a while. Meanwhile, the lynch has become an unreliable tool. The town did need to vig, but it needs the lynch as well. The game at that point became a case of either a) joining your 'organization' as it was presented, or b) lose.

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But behind the scenes, they were quietly scummy. Town really ceased to be when it decided to go bad, en masse, and I personally assisted in convincing over half of those folks to turn their backs on the town.

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Indeed. I still feel like this was more due to the inevitability created by the failure to lynch. And everyone knew you knew everyone else, so why not join you? It offered information, success, and security. All the golden honey in the world wouldn't have mattered much if you didn't have the raw power of lynch immunity and a centralized organization. Personally, I don't find much entertainment in centralized playstyles in mafia, even if they are successful. But for most, I suspect this isn't much of an issue.

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I concur with this assessment. Town's morale suffered greatly when the shyster kept me alive not once, but twice in a row, and I did everything I could to make sure I would be lynched a second time in a row. If they had lynched another gangster instead, or the shyster itself, they would have still been in the game. I wanted to take them out of the game as fast as possible, and make everyone believe town was finished, and it was time to go mafia.

Then, they'd likely turn to me or one of my allies to become mafia. Yes I understand exactly what the shyster did, and its presence in Capo is questionable to say the least. But it was there and almost no one else was bothering to use it, and I was exactly the wrong person to have that kind of protection. You combine that with the mafia gaining control of the vote and making me Director, and I'm not at all surprised with the reaction of the resistance to give up or feel kicked in the stomach. That was a horrible combination for the town.

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This certainly was the correct play, for going for the win. However, this is also about where the game got unequivocally less interesting, in my opinion. The town being shut out so the mafia can have a giant picnic is not, in my opinion, very fun. And I don't feel that this would have happened with the shyster role.

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Oh yes. I can see how Seamus originally intended the role, and it would make sense.

Imagine a role that could guess which of 5 Dons was going to be lynched that day, and tried to spare one of them. Guess correctly, and deal a serious blow to town morale and keep one of the starting Dons alive, the starting Dons who have a rough go of it.

Sure, in the hands of just the mafia Dons, they'd fight over his power and it would be somewhat balanced.

The FATAL flaw was allowing the shyster to spare any player from the lynch. Not just the Dons, but anyone.... even a wiseguy, unaligned to the mob.

How could I afford such a powerful lawyer as some two-bit goon? I couldn't. That kind of power shouldn't have been possible for me.

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Here, I'll disagree. The shyster was not crucial to mafia success, in my opinion- they were quite capable of winning on their own. We know this because, as you did accurately estimate, people like to be mafia, and without incorruptible townies, there were going to be plenty who would join on principle. But instead, the mafia all got the one weapon that could make a Don immortal. It's encourages a degree of laziness- rather than focusing on cultivating the right image with the majority of the players to avoid the lynch, a Don only need to get friendly with the shyster and convince them that they're the best Don. And lastly, I'll repeat what I said earlier. The lynch is a sacred weapon of destruction. I just simply cannot condone taking it out of people's hands. This is simply a philosophical point I will not change my mind on.

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No, while there was a lot of behind the scenes drama, there was a lull in the action around the middle which made me feel like having everything under my control was overkill.

I was also exhausted from all the "meticulous planning" and needed a break. I told everyone, town and mafia, to do their own thing and for a time, many rounds, they were free from me. But everything still went the same. Once the snowball was rolling it just kept getting bigger and more out of control. It didn't need me anymore, it was already gargantuan.

When there was so little resistance to what I was doing, I admit I got a little depressed as well. If people had rallied together, infiltrated my network, asked the right questions of the right people, and just found out who the shyster was and tried to kill him....

The guy I left intentionally defenseless most of the latter half because it was the only way the game even seemed fair to me...

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And here's the bit about the shyster, pizza. You even tried to encourage the game to balance out by not defending him. Imagine someone more ruthless in your situation? It wouldn't have been hard to sit two protections on Dave and simply laugh as people who actually had the audacity to attack him failed.

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We could have had a big war and I could have died and all hell would have broken loose. Instead some people got too defeatist and packed up. Others lacked necessary allies to bring us down. A big united faction versus a lot of divided factions who were demoralized was an easy contest at times.

The challenge was surviving the mafia versus mafia wars, where no one's allegiance was set in stone. The game got a lot more interesting to me then. Before that it was just hacking apart a disenchanted town who wasn't being protected very well by all those doctors I helped them create. I kept picking folks that would seem to have been a low priority for protection, if I were still running the town. So I played as if I was still running the town and I picked whoever I wouldn't have protected as my targets.

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I'll just bang the drum again. When you literally act as scummy as humanly possible, and have two separate lynch attempts on you fail, how can you be surprised? People were nervous enough when you just had a network. That's why I was doing my best to take it down, because you were already dangerous enough. But when you prove yourself an immortal god, how can people stand against you?

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My dream was finding some worthy yet oft-overlooked player, building them up to made, and letting them go to town on the town.... whichever one was the most clever and ruthless would be the one I'd support as Capo, and I would have followed them as their Made.

Things didn't go as I planned, and once again in a power vacuum, around round 17 I decided it was time to fill the vacuum again and challenge whoever else tried to become king of the mountain. Thankfully there were some actually trying for the prize or the ending would have been 1000 times lamer.

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True. There was at least some resistance. But it simply wasn't enough. The dissolution of the early mafia famlies, as well as two of the Dons not being active, made the power balance something of an issue.

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That puzzled me to no end.

In the game, during the game, when the victory was still on the line, I told people who DaveShack was. As in everyone still alive. I posted it in-thread.

I leaked my own notes to every Don, and leaked my notes to half the scums in the game.... he was a known quantity and I was indeed leaving him undefended, on purpose, because I knew that even though it wasn't completely unfair for a role like his to exist, me being able to protect both him and myself for certain every round didn't seem particularly like I was risking much and it would have made the game boring for me.

I decided to only protect him when I thought he would be attacked, like at the end after I said I left him undefended for rounds and rounds and rounds. Maybe someone would try something then, nobody did.

The Insurrection to bring down Askthepizzaguy would have worked if it was focused on DaveShack and everyone showed up. And it should have happened like 5-8 rounds before that. After Dave died, I would have been completely boned.

I was waiting for that to happen, although I wasn't playing for a loss, I was playing in a way that intentionally exposed key weaknesses that nobody even tried to hit until it was basically too late.

Very odd.

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It may seem odd, but I can also see how people might assume it a trap- it seems you likely made it too obvious. They assumed that you had a protection on him(why not) and would then pounce when they were exposed. At least for much of the midgame. Late game, I'm as baffled as you are- more people like Renata were needed, who would take the last shot at glory for a critical strike.

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Allied mafia I can understand;

Why didn't the Barzini try to reveal DaveShack?

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This one I can answer- well, no, not really. I had no idea Dave existed as a role until I took over as co-host. Phill never told us about him. I couldn't tell you why. We couldn't bust Dave because we had no idea.

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Why didn't the Pentangeli try to reveal DaveShack?

Why didn't the Corleone try to destroy DaveShack?

Why didn't the townies even try once to vig-kill him or lynch him once they knew who he was? Town knew I had enemies, enemies which would leap at the chance to remove my lawyer and therefore, me.

Didn't take the shot. No idea why not.

I couldn't have broken their morale that much, some folks were still fighting.

Listen, the town could have gotten one of their rogue detectives and paired them up with a like-minded Made gangster and did a sanctioned hit on DaveShack. They could have formed a vig squad until the very late game. Why didn't anyone try to kill Dave?

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Once again, couldn't tell you. The docs were doing a pretty good job, but there were almost no offensive enforcers. The rogues were all investigating for the most part. And the investigators seemed awfully preoccupied with Chaotix. :shrug:

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I felt like Sasaki/Scottishranger and the Pentangeli gave it a good effort, but they were overwhelmed; they struck too early and without enough support, so they were easy pickings.

They needed more gangsters, doctors, something.

The Corleones gave a very brave effort but I think I schmoozed them into being pacified, even if their intentions were usually hostile toward me (see their QTs)

Chaotix was amazing, always trying to win it without resorting to me.

Krill and some others in the Stracchi/Cunio would have gone independent if I weren't allied to them. They stuck with me because I promised I'd go independent with them and form a final, separate family that included them. Better chance of winning that way, than doing it divided.

I did kill off a whole lot of folks I felt would try to go for the gold for themselves, but not all. I felt the Corleone people were very likely to break away and try to win it for themselves... or at least, without me.

But I feel what you're saying. I kept looking for the super ambitious rival, and I found that all my super ambitious rivals were either with much smaller families or they were dead, or feuding with each other.

I did feel like some folks weren't putting into it what I was, but then again it might have been the demoralizing effects of not only the size and scope of the alliance I threw together, but also the doctor protection, lawyer protection, and eventually the Directorship. That had to keep some folks down.

That said, I didn't think anything I did would demoralize folks like Chaotix, Sasaki, Crazed Rabbit, etc, because me doing my thing usually just makes them see red and try to bring me down even harder. I didn't even go for killing those guys until they had either attacked the Stracchi/Cunio or tried to undermine me personally. I wanted desperately to see what they would do in this situation.

They all fought but they had a lack of people willing to fight with them. In a game this size, that's surprising. These folks are very dangerous and they could have beaten me easily with some supporters.

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Well, if you want someone to emerge as the 'scrappy underdog', you can't just kill them all off and leave the usuals. :shrug:

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I appreciate your perspectives, yours and GH's. I share a lot of your concerns. Sometimes things felt too cheap and too overpowered.

I got a bit disenchanted with the game at times.

I'll get into my own personal lamentations soon, because believe it or not, there was a lot of this game that I didn't find fun and there were many times I wanted to just resign. Some of it was my fault, some of it was circumstance, and some of it was how others behave around me and toward me.

Don't get me wrong, I still found ways to have fun and in particular, I enjoyed the character I played and I enjoyed throwing everything I could at the town and any rival mafiosi I could, as openly as possible, guffawing in-character all the way. I also enjoyed pulling off the win, but there were parts of the game that felt forced, hollow, and uninteresting.

That said, I am also going to argue that this game was not at all imbalanced and defend Seamus' game and his vision of the game. While the game itself was different perhaps than his vision of it, what it was, was balanced. It became unbalanced due to many factors which I want to address. I'll probably address that stuff with my next post.

There was a lot of room for fairness and fun in this game and it was broken not by design, and not by any one role or one player either. That will be my thesis for Capo IV. I'll explain why I think so and show why it can be argued that I'm correct on that. Permit me to demonstrate.

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I'll acknowledge, and let you present your case before going into a specific balancing issue. I'll just say that I don't think that, outside of the shyster, the game was imbalanced. Seamus did a great job with 99+% of the roles. But I simply feel that the shyster was to balance what a wrench is to a knee cap.

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Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief

Okay, look at it from the other side's perspective. Your leaving DaveShack open for such a long period of time was hidden. You had been playing a massively overconfident mafioso for a long time now whose motives had been established as win at all costs. You were the archetype of evil. You were reveling in everyone wanting to bring you down, enjoying the challenge, and enjoying crushing everyone's skull who tried. This is what those who opposed you saw, regardless of whether it was true or not.

Now, take a walk in their shoes for a minute. They're looking for cracks in the system. Are they going to expect your ace in the hole to be so deliberately open? No, of course not. That would be the waste of a night action better spent elsewhere. It would be almost as foolish as attacking you directly. They're looking for people to turn, to whittle down your numbers. They're not going to go after the keystone to your entire operation.

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Okay, you're saying the direct approach seemed futile, and the more obviously worthwhile strategy of attacking the supporting cast rather than the main characters was much sounder strategy. Sure, that's one way to look at it. But remember it's all a game of WIFOM.

I was facing off against a town which had at various times a half-dozen or more folks protected at night, some of them capable of killing in retaliation. So the town is going after mafia, one of which they cannot lynch during the day, no idea which one. The mafia is going after the town, 6 or so of which they cannot murder during the night, no idea which one.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

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Attacked = 65: Askthepizzaguy (n1, n2, n4, n5, n8, n21), Raskolnikov (n1), Slash and earn (n1, n6), slysnake (n1, n3), Earthling (n1), a completely inoffensive name (n2), Master Necromanver (n2), Cahoma (n2), El Barto (n2), Montmorency (n2, n4), Chaotix (n2, n3, n11, n12, n19), taillesskangaru (n3), Secura (n3), Ameranth (n3), Craterus (n3), Cecil XIX (n3, n6), johnhughthom (n4), Ishmael (n4), Drunk Clown (n4, n5), Psychonaut (n5), Suburban Plankton (n4), Sasaki Kojiro (n4), scottishranger (n4, n10), edse (n5), Erebus (n5, n6, n15), Diana Abnoba (n6, n10), J.D. (n6), Zack (n6), Camikaze (n7), Hero di Classico (n7), Diamondeye (n7, n9), guiri (n8), Khazaar (n8, n9, n11), Riedquat (n8), robbiecon (n8), Scienter (n8 x2), sturmhauke (n8), Jarema (n9), Oh! TheLastDays! (n10, n17, n18), qlyphz (n10, n12), Psychonaut (n11), Crazed Rabbit (n12), Erebus (n12), BillMC (n12), Secura (n13), Beefy (n13), white eyes (n13), B_Ray (n14), Renata (n14, n15), Tiaexz (n14), Kennigit (n15), gibsons (n15), Believer (n16), Death is Yonder (n16, n20), shlin28 (n16), Seon (n17), hero di classico (n18), autolycus (n19, n21), Ironside (n19)


Killed = 76: Captain Black Adder [townie] (n1), Pharoah [townie] (n2), Moros [luca] (n2), ELITEWARMAN8GINGYBREADMENMILK [townie] (n2), TinCow [detective] (n3), Xenoneb [townie] (n3), El Barto [detective] (n3), Arjos [FBI chief] (n3), Ameranth [wiseguy] (n4), Lord Winter [wiseguy] (n4), Suburban Plankton [detective] (n5), slysnake [townie] (n5), Lord Brennus [townie] (n5), Bow-wow-wow [townie] (n5), ByzantineKnight [townie] (n6), Kagemusha [serial killer] (n6), Tratorix [FBI] (n6), Raskolnikov [wiseguy] (n6), Nictel [wiseguy] (n6), J.D. [wiseguy] (n6), Visorslash [communist leader] (n7), Cecil XIX [townie] (n7), Drunk Clown [luca] (n7), Johnhughthom [wiseguy] (n7), Jolt [Made] (n7), Romanic [wiseguy] (n7), fubbleskag [doctor] (n8), Ibn-Khaldun [townie] (n8), Memnon [townie] (n8), robbiecon [townie] (n8), Andres [Special Agent] (n8), Camikaze [Made] (n8), Frozen in Ice [wiseguy] (n8), woad&fangs [townie] (n9), Zack [townie] (n9), Zim [Luca] (n9), Choxorn [townie] (n9), dcmort93 [townie] (n9), Diamondeye [wiseguy] (n10),
AggonyKing [townie] (n10), God Emperor [made] (n10), Skotsko [made] (n10), slash and earn [townie] (n10), thefluffyone93 [rogue detective] (n10), Craterus [townie] (n11), Peasant Phill [Don] (n11), Sasaki [Don] (n11), ULC [townie] (n11), Khazaar [townie] (n12), Johhog [Wiseguy] (n12), qlyphz [townie] (n12), Lewwyn [made] (n13), Monk [townie] (n13), Yaropolk [townie] (n13), Cahoma [Luca] (n14), guiri [townie] (n14), Psychonaut [detective] (n14), Scienter [Made] (n14), B_Ray [townie] (n16), gnarlycharlie [Don] (n16), Sigurd [communist recruit] (n16), Sprig [Made] (n16), Clitsome [communist] (n17), fyremarble [don] (n17), gibsonsg91921 [luca] (n17), Winston Hughes [made] (n17), Backwards Logic [Made] (n18), Believer [FBI] (n18), GamezRule [don] (n18), kennigit [Made] (n18), Secura [rogue] (n18), Bsmith [wiseguy] (n19), Jarema [made] (n19), Neri [made] (n19), Tiaexz [made] (n19), White eyes [wiseguy] (n19), Xehh II [wiseguy] (n19), Hero Di Classico (n21)


Lynched = 21: Earthling [townie] (d2), a completely inoffensive name [townie] (d3), Subotan [wiseguy] (d3), Major Robert Dump [wiseguy] (d4), Ishmael [communist] (d5), Montmorency [wiseguy] (d6), landlubber [Made] (d8), Captain Blackadder [townie] (d9), Riedquat [townie] (d10), Edse [surgeon] (d11), Populus Romanus [surgeon] (d12), Crazed Rabbit [made] (d13), Sturmhauke (d15) [townie], The Stranger (d15) [rogue], BillMC [detective] (d16), Erebus (d17) [townie], shlin28 [townie] (d18), Scottishranger [don] (d19), Chaotix (d20), Ironside (d21)

Alive
Askthepizzaguy [Don], Autolycus [Made], Beefy187 [surgeon], DaveShack [Shyster], Death is yonder [surgeon], Diana Abnoba [Made], Double A [Made], Krill [Made], LazyMcCrow [serial killer], Nightbringer [surgeon], Niklas [Made], O!TheLastDays! [Communist defector], Seon [surgeon], SisterCoyote [surgeon]

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The powerful roles I knew about and I attacked, [Tincow, Andres, Arjos, etc, were not attacked by me or known to me] I didn't attack right away. Most of them, I didn't bother hitting until the very late game, if at all.

Then I went after basic townies, basic townies, other mafiosi, and wiseguys.

Obviously there was a pattern there, and the several town doctors should have compensated. Or at least guessed randomly and made a save that wasn't orchestrated by myself more often, if they were gunning for a town victory.

Now, it's a game of wine in front of me. Which person is protected? Is it the obvious person?

Well, I decided the obvious people were protected and largely, they were, or at the very least, the least obvious people to protect were not protected.

At some point, townies could have risked things and tried to protect folks that fit the pattern of who seemed to be dying.



I say that because something similar could have been attempted with the shyster's protection. Obviously Askthepizzaguy is going to be the lynch protection, so everyone else is not covered, they're all exposed. They can be hit, no problem. Once you realize this, the shyster ceases to be a problem at all during the day for everyone besides Askthepizzaguy. You lynch people besides ATPG, and soon, the shyster is worthless unless he does what he's supposed to do, and tries to guess who will be lynched, instead of being told.

Holy cow, we have a game!

Or with the vigilantes. Game is to remove gangsters or the shyster. So, hit gangsters... maybe I'll try to protect them instead of the shyster, to keep my people alive. Then, a properly timed strike against DaveShack would have worked. (Or, as it turned out, most strikes against DaveShack would have worked) Or maybe just lynch DaveShack, surely between the town and the gangsters I was fighting with, they could all agree Dave needed to go so I'd be exposed. I could count many rounds where I had unfriendly relations with over half the players and they would have all leaped at the chance to destroy DaveShack, and every mafia family knew who he was, and not every mafia family loved Askthepizzaguy.

Or if you're left fighting a hopeless battle or so it seems, and you feel you're not going to win anyway, why not take a shot at the lawyer, the way Renata took a shot at me before she died? Why not take the shot? So what if you think he's going to be protected. Attack the lawyer AND gangsters. I can't cover everyone. Someone is going to die, and eventually it's going to be the lawyer, unless I plan on running a mafia empire of just myself and Dave. In a game where the right answer is the one I am trying to make everyone think is wrong, someone should have called my bluff and tried to kill Dave. Even if it seemed like the wrong thing to do because it was too obvious.



I could be explaining myself wrong and with too many words again. Let me start over...

Looking for cracks in the defense is what we're getting at? If we're thorough, we would have found the crack going straight up the front door, and found that the door is hanging off its hinges. We can do that while we're examining the solid stone outer walls for weaknesses too.

Finally, more than half the doctors had no love for me, and mafia families were gunning for me. Protect the folks that wanted to kill my gangsters, and soon enough, I'd be forced to try to cover my gangsters as well, or die in a hopeless shoot-out. Then Dave would be exposed.

Something could have been done. There was more than zero options. Some of them weren't even WIFOM-y, they were bruteforce-related like attacking everyone including Dave once or twice, or protecting my enemies and watching them whittle away at my soldiers, or just outvoting the Stracchi/Cunio and getting Dave lynched, by forming a temporary alliance between the town and the rival mafia to take him out.

Those are also solutions, not just being brazen and firing a silly shot at Dave which incidentally would have killed him as well.




Anyway, allow me to step aside and say I could be playing devil's advocate here. I agree with both you and khaan about a lot of things. I would like to friendly-disagree with you that the shyster was game-breaking or should have even been as demoralizing as it was.

It's a powerful and unusual role, I admit. But even dead veterans could still play, and I know there are literally genius players here. You can and will adapt to a role like the shyster and you can and will defeat a role like the shyster if you put your minds to it. I can think of ways to overcome its power without knowing its key weaknesses, just with the vigilantes alone;

Now, okay, the vigilantes were going mafia.

That means the town defeated itself. They could have stayed townie, obliterated the gangsters that were obviously and openly (or leaked) allied to me, and the lawyer wouldn't have meant jack squat. I cannot beat the town even if I can't be lynched or murdered, because I need a mafia family to do it with. They were always up for grabs by everyone. And once I flinch and try to protect them, all of a sudden the keystone to the operation becomes exposed as well. And he was already exposed.

Anyway, I know, I know, how demoralizing the shyster was. I used that demoralization to great effect, but essentially, it's a bluff. I cannot win with just myself and Dave or even the doctors protecting us. Eventually I need gangsters with me. Kill them.

I cannot cover Dave and my gangsters and my doctors. Someone has to die. Rock, paper, scissors...

It's a puzzle that could have been solved blind by trial and error or random luck. It was not at all impossible and being demoralized becomes an excuse, because folks like Earthling and others never stopped fighting even while dead, they wanted me dead in the worst way, someone in this group of 116 other players would have had the energy, the drive, the ambition, and the thinking power to solve it. And I think most everyone had the thinking power and ambition. If they lacked the energy and drive, then I succeeded in bluffing them into submission.

But I was in no way invulnerable. This Pizza dragon could have been slain, you just have to get past the image of invulnerability. It's designed to scare you away but it holds very little real power.

I know you guys understand what I'm saying. I know there were folks with energy dedicated to my destruction even after GH and Khaan left the game. Someone would have and could have thought of ways to remove the lawyer, and someone else, several of them, eventually all of them, had the proper data.

As such, I can only argue that town defeated itself.... the lawyer and my bluster might have convinced them to, but they made the choice. I could never make that choice for them.



Is that too harsh an assessment, or do I have a point here? Feel free to tell me if you think otherwise. I think I do have a point.

And to Khaan-

Granted, I'll never try to convince you a lynch-blocking role is one you should embrace. That's like me and too many sane detectives, you'll never convince me it's a game of mafia with those around, it's a game of let's make sure Askthepizzaguy isn't mafia, or kill him. That said, this game was quite winnable by any faction, even when the town fell behind the mafia. Being outnumbered or even outgunned is not the end. I can point you to several games where multiple mafia families faced off, and a minority town posed a huge threat and won or drew the game. And ultimately the shyster was not powerful at all if you were trying to lynch people besides Askthepizzaguy. And then I became Director and couldn't kill anyway, therefore I wasn't even the main immediate threat. And I was still asking for protection which sometimes I didn't get.

There's another thing. How about the human error angle? Why not try to hit Dave or Pizza anyway, in case someone forgot to send in orders? It can happen.

I couldn't have survived some of those rounds if every townie showed up. The Clemenza won through the town's full forces not being there at the critical moment. What about the mafia's? Surely someone might have forgotten or arrived too late once or twice in the game. Stubborn persistence could have won out. If anything, it forces me to allocate resources to protecting the shyster and those protecting the shyster and leaves everyone else vulnerable to the lynch and the murder...

It's just like playing against doctors. You don't have to go after the people the doctor protects, the game is to make the doctor useless by hitting those he's not protecting. Then in order to become at all effective, the doctor has to start guessing who dies, and it becomes a game.

The shyster is basically a doctor against the lynch. If viewed from that angle, the same tactics to defeat doctors work on the shyster, and its power becomes almost meaningless.

I may say these things because I have played in games where I was investigated Night One and still had to find ways to win. I had games where I was facing off against a town where there was nothing but roleblockers, and I had to try to find ways to win.

Sometimes the game setup or circumstances seem unfair, but how we react to those circumstances shows who we are as players.

I knew I'd be scanned and exposed as mafia, so what did I do? I adapted by making sure I wouldn't scan as mafia, and had zero kills, yet I was advancing my aims.



Folks gotta tackle unfamiliar and harsh, even losing circumstances with the same gusto they tackle a winning game, because won games require little further finesse to win. There is true glory to be had is winning a supposedly losing game, and I know there's lots of folks here who have the creativity and track record to do exactly that, especially with a talent pool this large.

Granted the shyster is a huge trump card, but I believe in you guys, and I think you could have done it. I know you are better than my bluffs or that one role. You can beat it. I did my best to convince you that you could not, because I was scared the entire time you'd not be convinced of that and promptly ruin me. And it was a very real fear I had.

Let me just ask you a simple question. Could you have successfully won the game as Capo di Tutti Capi without the presence of the Shyster role?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief

Now, take a walk in their shoes for a minute. They're looking for cracks in the system. Are they going to expect your ace in the hole to be so deliberately open? No, of course not. That would be the waste of a night action better spent elsewhere. It would be almost as foolish as attacking you directly. They're looking for people to turn, to whittle down your numbers. They're not going to go after the keystone to your entire operation.

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Bingo. It's exactly the reason the Corelone never burned a kill attempt on DaveShack directly. The plan, working under the assumption the only thing keeping ATPG alive was DaveShack and in turn would have one of ATPG's goon doc's protecting him constantly, meant wasting the attack at night would be pointless, and if covered by a Surgeon, borderline suicidal. My line of thinking had always centered around wiping out ATPG's docs, as they formed the backbone along with the shyster of his power. He could swing a war anyway he wanted with the combo by negating kills at night and/or diverting lynches to whoever, especially after Dave's promotion (which after the promotion was completely and totally broken as a mechanic. Talk about overpowered. Once I heard he was promoted from something already extremely powerful and found out what the new deal was I was pretty deflated).

As for doing nothing with DaveShack, I had a few plans in place that just needed the okay to put in motion along with maybe an extra day or two to get the kills required. Unsanctioned kills of the Docs that would likely be protecting him followed by another night's hit on him and the remaining docs. Unfortunately, the Corelone 'rebellion' screwed things up early (the whole Scottishranger ordeal), which led to 1) not having enough Mades to pull it off and 2) needing to buy time to get the recruits we did have trained to Made. By the time 1) and 2) were underway, ATPG had begun to whittle us - the attack that killed Scienter hurt badly, then followed by the S/K on Winston and the ridiculously uncalled for attack on Sigurd. In the middle of those attacks, we couldn't do much of anything with regards to training the recruits. I'm not happy with our relative inaction during this period either, but that's another story. So long story short: Assuming ATPG would have DaveShack protected at all times, it meant to kill him we'd have to kill the docs first to expose him. Lynching was out of the question as well - lynching him early wouldn't have been possible as everyone was still waving the 'I'm for the mafia' flag, and going against it meant getting night killed by the families. By the end when people finally realized what was going on it was too late - ATPG was winning the next day or close to it and would have (did have) vote superiority.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief

Let me just ask you a simple question. Could you have successfully won the game as Capo di Tutti Capi without the presence of the Shyster role?

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Using the tactics I used here? No, absolutely not.

But someone might have, and it might have been a starting family, and I could have gotten my close victory, or I could have used slightly different tactics and joined one of the families earlier than I did, and had a very real shot at a victory higher than "close". The knowledge of there being a shyster changed my tactics that I was willing to use, of course. But it should have changed the tactics others used as well.

It did affect the outcome but even with the shyster, there was absolutely no way to force a win, no way to force my way to being Don, no way to force being Capo di Tutti Capi. It always required compliance by someone; allies, neutrals, even enemies being disenchanted with their chances of winning. I was in no way in control of the game, everyone always had their free will, and not just my play but the character I was playing was quite literally trying to convince people that they had no choices and the game was rigged. People chose to believe that. Others chose not to believe it and kept fighting, but they needed the winning strategy, the winning shot to take down the lawyer, perhaps, or just the mades, or myself. I couldn't have won without at least two of those things surviving. Any plan could have taken out one of them, brute force eventually kills the mades or the lawyer and its protection. But luck and finesse and good tactics can force an overworked defender to move, or render it ineffective.

It's one of those chess principles. Sure I could defend the lawyer but I couldn't defend everything and I can't win without Mades and I can't be Capo without myself alive. So I can't cover everything. And a sustained assault on the Mades would have forced me to lose them, or cover them up. Overworked doctors/mades cannot defend everything. Once that's the case, then it becomes a game of WIFOM as to which thing I need alive will die, and guessing correctly wins that game.


I think your question was meant to lead to another one, so I'll :quiet: myself and listen.

Pizza, I think we're drifting a hair off from what the issue we were presenting. While the presence of the Shyster obviously had a great impact on this game, the ultimate point of discussion was to talk about it somewhat more generally speaking. In other words, what likely outcomes would come from repeated 'experiments' with the game.

Did the shyster imbalance the game, encouraging mafia-like behavior? Yes, that was predictable, once the role came to light. Was it it a nuke that ended the game right there? No, but that's not necessary to imbalance the game. If we must ask the question of whether the Shyster could be overcome, the question of its overall game balance is easy for me to answer. I'd simply like to reiterate what exactly this role got and was. It got access to all five starting Dons. It could protect them from lynch, when the only way to slay a don at night is to first deal with the Luca. It could do this for as many day phases as it wanted. And on top of that, it upgraded when successful. When I saw the documentation of Daveshack's role pm, my jaw dropped. I honestly was shocked. I couldn't believe Seamus had made such a general purpose mafia weapon. What I'm saying is- the role can singlehandedly tip the game balance severely, and would likely do so the great majority of the time, if we were to run repeated tests of Capo on individuals with no prior knowledge of the role's existence. It would, most of the time, come down to either the shyster being very careless, or a random lucky vig attempt very early in the game to remove it before the damage was done.

Summary- you're claiming that there's no way for you to force victory through just by yourself and the shyster. True? Yeah, more or less. But that we have to discuss this, in my opinion, speaks volumes about the general imbalance of the role.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by issaikhaan

Summary- you're claiming that there's no way for you to force victory through just by yourself and the shyster. True? Yeah, more or less. But that we have to discuss this, in my opinion, speaks volumes about the general imbalance of the role.

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And I love these discussions, and I'd like to reiterate that I think your opinions on this matter come from deep experience, deeper than my own perhaps, and they're also valid regardless of whether I agree with them or not, and I happen to agree it's one of those "overpowered" roles.


:bow: I have great respect for you both. Please don't think I'm arguing with you, I prefer the term friendly discussion. I don't even really disagree by much.




Bringing it back to a discussion about "balance", however, balance is a different issue from overpowered roles. A game with nothing but overpowered roles is a balanced game. A boring game, or a chaotic mess of a game, but a balanced one. Any faction can win, it's a matter of how, and under those circumstances it's largely blind luck and that's why I hate all-power-role games.

For balance, let's talk about the town which not only begins with a doctor but can literally forge more doctors. Then, the doctors protect each other, while we forge more doctors. It's boring but it can be done with two simple saves. It's the easiest power role to promote to in this game and lots and lots of people did it, even with the allure of going mafia here.

Then those doctors can promote to a role that kills folks that attack its target.

Unless the mafia expands to the size necessary to outright control the vote, that's insanely powerful for the town.

That, is, overpowered. No other mafia game has this many doctors, who can protect against infinite attacks on the same target at night, and even potentially kill the attacker, and has the capability of turning literally every townie that survives into a doctor.

You talk about imbalance? That's a brute force win for the townies. The reason why people don't do that is because it's boring as heck, and some people still did it.

This game also allows almost any townie to become mafia. How does town win a game like that? It doesn't, if town decides to become mafia.

Again, the game is vastly "imbalanced" due to the power of any given basic role to become mafia or a doctor. Against a shyster, it dwarfs the power of a shyster. No amount of shysterism could stop a dedicated town from being a brute force town win, no amount of shysterism could prevent townies from going mafia and eventually defeating him and his allies. There were too many townies, and almost any townie could become mafia or doctor.

So, if we're talking balance, you have to add in all the other roles or you're only discussing part of the equation, and then it's not an equation anymore, and if it's not an equation then it's not a comparison about balance.

So, the shyster is powerful. So is a serial killer. So is a Mafia Don/Luca/Made gangster combination. So is a group of doctors. All those elements are in the game. They are all added to the equation...


Now you talk about how the lynch is sacred; yeah it's a big part of it, but it represents less than half of the townie's kill power by far. In Capo III there was absolutely no way to rid the town of all the mafia by lynch, there were too many. You had to kill them.

Townies can vig-kill in groups. They can promote to wiseguy and vig-kill in even smaller groups. They can become rogue detectives and kill scanned criminals by themselves. And there were how many townies and wiseguys in the game?

Ultimately, town made a choice, to not be town anymore. That means each of those players made a high-stakes gamble that they'd be on the winning family. They mostly lost that gamble and would have been far better off staying townie, in retrospect, isn't that so?

And if they did, the shyster would have been meaningless.

Again, my main point is that the town always had the power to win, and they willingly, even eagerly, gave it up. The game is quite balanced, shyster or no. Overpowered that it might be, a wiseguy is also overpowered and there were lots of those and they can win with the town.

A couple of points.

Quote:

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For balance, let's talk about the town which not only begins with a doctor but can literally forge more doctors. Then, the doctors protect each other, while we forge more doctors. It's boring but it can be done with two simple saves. It's the easiest power role to promote to in this game and lots and lots of people did it, even with the allure of going mafia here.

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In this example, the promotion of doctors and thereof is dependent on the players wanting to go doctor in the first place, which is an individual choice and, as we've seen in this game, nowhere near the most popular route. Whereas the Shyster role is by design only affecting one side. It is specifically a mafia-aligned role designed to save mafiosi. There is no ambiguity.

Quote:

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So, the shyster is powerful. So is a serial killer. So is a Mafia Don/Luca/Made gangster combination. So is a group of doctors. All those elements are in the game. They are all added to the equation...

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The Shyster is powerful because it's a support role that directly enhances the power of an already powerful combination.

Quote:

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Now you talk about how the lynch is sacred; yeah it's a big part of it, but it represents less than half of the townie's kill power by far. In Capo III there was absolutely no way to rid the town of all the mafia by lynch, there were too many. You had to kill them.

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No, the lynch is never going to be the primary way to remove massive amounts of numbers in a game like this.

But we're not talking about numbers. We're talking about individual people.

The lynch is supposed to be a safety valve; the option of last resort. If all of the night options are failing - if someone is too well-protected at night, if they're literally unkillable because they're the Director - the lynch is always there. When all else fails the town can go to it to remove a single individual. In a numbers game such as this where we regularly saw a half-dozen people killed per night, yes, it doesn't count much.

However, in the grand scheme of things, it counts for a lot. And when that's gone, that's big.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

And I love these discussions, and I'd like to reiterate that I think your opinions on this matter come from deep experience, deeper than my own perhaps, and they're also valid regardless of whether I agree with them or not, and I happen to agree it's one of those "overpowered" roles.


:bow: I have great respect for you both. Please don't think I'm arguing with you, I prefer the term friendly discussion. I don't even really disagree by much.

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Naturally. Simply a discussion.

Quote:

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Bringing it back to a discussion about "balance", however, balance is a different issue from overpowered roles. A game with nothing but overpowered roles is a balanced game. A boring game, or a chaotic mess of a game, but a balanced one. Any faction can win, it's a matter of how, and under those circumstances it's largely blind luck and that's why I hate all-power-role games.

For balance, let's talk about the town which not only begins with a doctor but can literally forge more doctors. Then, the doctors protect each other, while we forge more doctors. It's boring but it can be done with two simple saves. It's the easiest power role to promote to in this game and lots and lots of people did it, even with the allure of going mafia here.

Then those doctors can promote to a role that kills folks that attack its target.

Unless the mafia expands to the size necessary to outright control the vote, that's insanely powerful for the town.

That, is, overpowered. No other mafia game has this many doctors, who can protect against infinite attacks on the same target at night, and even potentially kill the attacker, and has the capability of turning literally every townie that survives into a doctor.

You talk about imbalance? That's a brute force win for the townies. The reason why people don't do that is because it's boring as heck, and some people still did it.

This game also allows almost any townie to become mafia. How does town win a game like that? It doesn't, if town decides to become mafia.

Again, the game is vastly "imbalanced" due to the power of any given basic role to become mafia or a doctor. Against a shyster, it dwarfs the power of a shyster. No amount of shysterism could stop a dedicated town from being a brute force town win, no amount of shysterism could prevent townies from going mafia and eventually defeating him and his allies. There were too many townies, and almost any townie could become mafia or doctor.

So, if we're talking balance, you have to add in all the other roles or you're only discussing part of the equation, and then it's not an equation anymore, and if it's not an equation then it's not a comparison about balance.

So, the shyster is powerful. So is a serial killer. So is a Mafia Don/Luca/Made gangster combination. So is a group of doctors. All those elements are in the game. They are all added to the equation...


Now you talk about how the lynch is sacred; yeah it's a big part of it, but it represents less than half of the townie's kill power by far. In Capo III there was absolutely no way to rid the town of all the mafia by lynch, there were too many. You had to kill them.

Townies can vig-kill in groups. They can promote to wiseguy and vig-kill in even smaller groups. They can become rogue detectives and kill scanned criminals by themselves. And there were how many townies and wiseguys in the game?

Ultimately, town made a choice, to not be town anymore. That means each of those players made a high-stakes gamble that they'd be on the winning family. They mostly lost that gamble and would have been far better off staying townie, in retrospect, isn't that so?

And if they did, the shyster would have been meaningless.

Again, my main point is that the town always had the power to win, and they willingly, even eagerly, gave it up. The game is quite balanced, shyster or no. Overpowered that it might be, a wiseguy is also overpowered and there were lots of those and they can win with the town.

---

Well, I would disagree that a wiseguy is overpowered- a wiseguy alone doesn't do a whole lot, now does he? He requires teamwork- a reliable group with which to function. If he cannot find this, he is pretty much useless on his own.

Naturally, I won't argue that the town certainly has tools. But the town needs cooperation and luck. Doctors can be difficult to create, and even when created, face a guessing game unless they can somehow infiltrate a mafia network and not get caught. Protection groups to supplement the docs can be prone to player error and betrayal, both common stock in a game of mafia. Similar for rogues- and made even more difficult by issues of luck and and possible random docs or don hits. Finding reliable cooperation amongst strangers is the hardest part about Capo. The shyster gets to ignore that factor of the game altogether. His cooperation is already secured- he already knows everyone he needs to know at the beginning of the game. Therefore, it just becomes a matter of figuring which of the Dons to support and when. What Don(na), striving for victory, wouldn't be doing everything in their power to be the shyster's best friend?


Did the town give up in this game? For the most part, yeah. The docs did an admiral job, but that was nowhere near enough. But I still trace that to the issue of two defunct lynches. It's not hard to convince people to abandon it en masse when one of their primary tools, the one thing that can nail a Don without having to take apart his whole network first, is rendered null. When someone can clamor about and gloat of the evil primacy, taunt the masses with how evil they are, and it proves literally impossible to remove them for it, I just have issues. You could play a whole different game when you knew you couldn't be lynched. You could leak anything you darn well pleased. That gives easy access to the first pillar of persuasion- charm. You could tell anyone anything, and they'd believe you until someone finally called out the inconsistencies. And when you can simply wink at them as you prance off the lynch platform twice, you establish the 2nd, sturdier pillar of persuasion- pure power. By this point, why stand against you when joining the mafia gives you a better chance of winning? Only the most defiant would stick to what, by all appearances, is a suicide course. Yes, yes, they still have the choice, but let's be honest about this- we know what people picked this time, and they'd all do it again in a heartbeat to win.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief

A couple of points.

In this example, the promotion of doctors and thereof is dependent on the players wanting to go doctor in the first place, which is an individual choice and, as we've seen in this game, nowhere near the most popular route. Whereas the Shyster role is by design only affecting one side. It is specifically a mafia-aligned role designed to save mafiosi. There is no ambiguity.

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True enough, and an incorruptible FPD detective designed to hunt down mafiosi, penetrate cover roles, and even discover who you've killed and who you killed them with, is a specifically town-aligned role designed to save townies, and they had multiples of those, had or could make doctors to protect them.

Quote:

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The Shyster is powerful because it's a support role that directly enhances the power of an already powerful combination.

---

In Capo III the problem was nobody wanted to go mafia because the doctors/protections/investigation combination was too powerful and we kept guessing correctly/getting lucky. Those elements were all here, by the way, countered by a lone mafia trump card, the lawyer, who could protect one person by guessing they'd be lynched the night before. Town had all the elements it had from Capo III and then more of them because they were bigger, and had more time to forge doctors because they had more bodies and a lower starting mafia versus town percentage. The only difference is that instead of the Mafia Commissioner, who also had contacts with every Don, who could investigate 4 times a night, they had a guy who could stop a lynch by correctly predicting it.

That's all, and it's slightly more powerful if used correctly than the Mafia Commissioner but the town had ample compensation for it already as demonstrated by the last game, where they won with fewer tools in their toolbox. Sure, there were fewer incorruptibles this time, but it still meant that people had the free will to choose their destiny. They freely chose the destiny of trying to go mafia, and it largely blew up in their faces, because now they were turning against a faction that had more than 70 players on it and tried to win with factions that were much smaller, that were competing against each other, and would be backstabbed from within.

Quote:

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However, in the grand scheme of things, it counts for a lot. And when that's gone, that's big.

---

I agree that it's big and not insignificant.

But we're also talking about a lynch or two out of 22 of them.

We've also seen lynch-stoppage abilities and roles before. Andres' Daggers in the Night game had two people who could stop a lynch once, they both used it on Kagemusha to make him appear immortal and we believed it. And there were far fewer lynches in that game. Nobody complained about how sacred the lynch was there.

We've had Force Breath in Sigurd's star wars game. Roles that survived a lynch or two in my ATPG Mafia II game. And as annoying as those games were at times, the games were always winnable by the town and they all came very close to being a town win.

I just find it interesting that this role is shocking, it's power is shocking, when we've seen and countered power like it before, in situations where every lynch was far more critical because there were fewer of them and NO VIGILANTES.

You could have ignored the shyster and myself once I became Director, because between us, we were one vote and zero murders for the mafia side, and everyone thought our continued existence was the end of the world. It wasn't in the slightest. Almost every other mafioso was up for grabs and they were vulnerable, and I even let the shyster twist in the wind because I saw this coming and played it as fairly as I could. You just had to kill him and people didn't try.

Quote:

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We've also seen lynch-stoppage abilities and roles before. Andres' Daggers in the Night game had two people who could stop a lynch once, they both used it on Kagemusha to make him appear immortal and we believed it. And there were far fewer lynches in that game. Nobody complained about how sacred the lynch was there.

We've had Force Breath in Sigurd's star wars game. Roles that survived a lynch or two in my ATPG Mafia II game. And as annoying as those games were at times, the games were always winnable by the town and they all came very close to being a town win.

---

Contrast with the Shyster and its infinitely reusable lynch block ability.

Also, I'll have you note that I went inactive after I was lynched in Daggers in the Night and didn't play the other two games, otherwise I would have complained equally as hard in those. :laugh4: IIRC there was a role in The Settlement as well, which I wasn't too happy about either but long dead by that point anyway.

Thank you to Seamus, GH and Khaan to start with.
And thanks to everyone who made this into a great game :bow:

Once again I lost against RL... And I need to apologize to those who I let down because of it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by issaikhaan

Only the most defiant would stick to what, by all appearances, is a suicide course. Yes, yes, they still have the choice, but let's be honest about this- we know what people picked this time, and they'd all do it again in a heartbeat to win.

---

But let's be wiser in retrospect.

Who wins the game if not one of the starting families? The town or the new family.

Town has the option not to join the starting families. Town has the option not to join the new family.

Why gamble away all the tools and support being townie brings you on the chance to be part of one of the families, to take a chance that your family will be the one that prevails? If you're really a townie, you should fight for your side and join the mafia perhaps as a last resort when the town is beaten.

The town has hardly beaten by round 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 or 7.... and thensome. But people willingly left the town en masse to become one of three or four or five families.... reducing their chances of winning by town against the mafia (good odds, if people stick together, let's call it 1:2) to their chances of winning as a particular mafia family against a particular other family against another family against another one against the still living town.

That was a bad gamble.

I know being mafia is awesome and all, but you depart the huge, powerful, town faction and join the mafia, you'd better be sure that's the one that's going to win. Because the odds are against it, just because only one Don can survive and you've pinned all your hopes on that guy, or being that guy, instead of using the vast protection, killing, and investigating resources of the town.

You also can't switch back. At least as wiseguy you can win as town, or become mafia. Once you go mafia, you never go back. You cut off your winning choices. People should have promoted to wiseguy, killed off all existing mafia, and either won as town, or decided to go mafia then. They became mafia prematurely and closed off their options, IMO.

Whether it's more fun to be mafia or not, town abandoned itself and its own resources to gamble a risky gamble on being mafia and only 6 people ended up winning with that gamble out of 100+ others. It wasn't a good bet. If folks had stayed townie it was a much safer bet they'd have won.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief

Contrast with the Shyster and its infinitely reusable lynch block ability.

Also, I'll have you note that I went inactive after I was lynched in Daggers in the Night and didn't play the other two games, otherwise I would have complained equally as hard in those. :laugh4: IIRC there was a role in The Settlement as well, which I wasn't too happy about either but long dead by that point anyway.

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GH, I was just as frustrated as anyone else when I faced off against the lynch survivors in those games. But I did see the games were playable and winnable after I saw the game exposed at the end, and although I didn't care for some of those mechanics, I felt the game host did a good job balancing such an unusual component into the game.

Here, I feel the same way. I don't think Seamus made a major blunder introducing the shyster, especially after the mafia had such a rough go of it in III. How we reacted to the role, we could have reacted better.

I did mention to landlubber I had access to such a role and we tried to lynch me not once, but twice. Mayhaps lynching one of my obvious allies was a wiser move? I'd cover myself, of course, being the face of everything and the main recruiter. Therefore, if folks assumed I was not bluffing about the lawyer, they wouldn't have even had one of their lynches blocked, let alone three.

I do commend you on your commitment to principle about these sorts of mechanics, and I don't begrudge you your position regarding them. They're all quite valid, and similar concerns are why I hate true investigators. But, we adapt and develop tactics to defeat them.... is ultimately my reply to your criticism of the role.

Your criticism is still valid; I think my response to the role and suggestions about how to overcome it are also valid. I saw the roleblock move against the lawyer and nearly died because of it and right there, town outnumbered and nearly defeated, almost stole the game back. That kind of ingenuity is what you needed and it needed to happen a couple rounds prior is all, and everyone showing up. We lost that vote on paper, in practice there were missing votes and it was a tie, WITH a townie turncoat helping us.

So.... I mean, we still should have lost, and it's a miracle I'm even here.

It's all a gamble, Pizza. But the biggest gamble? Trying to set up your own small groups. The ones to get vigs going, or to get docs going. Any one person could flake out or be a mole.

Shyster? No worries. As I mentioned, he already knew everyone he needed to. He knew five of the most crucial players to the game, practically from the outset.


And, as far as the poor gamble for mafioso- I'd say it's not too bad, considering that mades can join up with new families, even if their Don dies. In fact, an unaligned made becomes a valued asset to fight over. So I wouldn't say it's too shabby. Yeah, a lot of people died in this game and only a small number got their victory. But those that did also know that they contributed that much more to the victory. They were 1/6th of that final effort, as opposed to, say, 1/20th or 1/10th. It gives a greater sense of personal empowerment, I'd say. So it's not all that farfetched for people to go mafia.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by issaikhaan

It's all a gamble, Pizza. But the biggest gamble? Trying to set up your own small groups. The ones to get vigs going, or to get docs going. Any one person could flake out or be a mole.

---

Don't I know it. I spent basically the whole game plugging leaks and drowning moles in Capo III and I had a whole network and the mafia had numerous handicaps like one family turning itself in for no reason and another one getting their Made outed on the first round, crippling them. I still had a tough time because the flakes, turncoats, and moles made even a huge, high-morale, and mostly loyal network dangerous and vulnerable.

Quote:

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Shyster? No worries. As I mentioned, he already knew everyone he needed to. He knew five of the most crucial players to the game, practically from the outset.

---

Well, he didn't know them, they knew him.

Let's suppose the Dons played it right, and never revealed the lawyer's power to anyone, just used it to try to help themselves survive.

Then it becomes a game for the lawyer of which of 5 Dons to protect. It's a guessing game. The situation where EVERYONE wanted Pizza DEAD and I knew that was going to happen and I knew who the lawyer was, was a situation that shouldn't have happened. If I were to tweak the role it would be so that it protects ONLY Mafia Dons or Lucas; non-killing gangsters.

That would be a good fix, I think.

If the role was played "as intended", it wouldn't have been nearly as powerful, and with one minor tweak, it becomes little more than a blip on the screen. And let's face it, if I hadn't contacted the lawyer or known about the role, the odds were high you wouldn't have seen a SINGLE lynch save.

Think about it... how does the lawyer predict who dies in a game of 100 people, when the deciding factor is the popular vote?

That's not very likely to happen at all during the course of the game, before the lawyer is killed by a gangster, or killed by a vigilante, or lynched.

The situation that happened here is unusual because I attained Don-level information and basically played to abuse its power to maximum total effectiveness.

You couldn't have abused that role any harder than I did. That was also unusual. I was playing to make myself the lynch target, I was over-the-top scummy. It worked to goad folks into lynching me and that gave me even more power, but the role was known about by the mafia before then and not all of them were in my pocket and after the first lynch and it was determined that someone else had that power and it wasn't an innate power of my own, we should have lynched other gangsters. Anyone but me.

Quote:

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And, as far as the poor gamble for mafioso- I'd say it's not too bad, considering that mades can join up with new families, even if their Don dies. In fact, an unaligned made becomes a valued asset to fight over.

---

Unless they're loyal to, say, Renata or Sasaki, and then you've got to kill them before they kill you.... :wink:

Quote:

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So I wouldn't say it's too shabby. Yeah, a lot of people died in this game and only a small number got their victory. But those that did also know that they contributed that much more to the victory. They were 1/6th of that final effort, as opposed to, say, 1/20th or 1/10th. It gives a greater sense of personal empowerment, I'd say. So it's not all that farfetched for people to go mafia.

---

True, the allure of personal glory is huge, but it doesn't convert to a win as easily as sticking town would have, especially if you convince others to stay with the town.

Thing is, once the group decides to divide up against the town and go into various mafia camps, that team of 80 or so players suddenly becomes teams of 10 or less. By default you're reducing your odds of victory, and joining up with the very gangsters you have to defeat to become the overall winner, instead of staying with your fellow townies and smashing those rivals to bits first. At least then you're among a larger group of friends, and if you die, it has less of an impact on your overall win. If you and a few others are killed when you're a mafia family, it can mean the end of the game for you.

But now we're getting into taking risks for fun, which I say go for it or else the game is boring. I'm just saying when you get down to brass tacks, the game was fair, the lawyer's power could have been blunted considerably, and ordinarily wouldn't have even been known to basically anyone. It was likely to die before it did a darned thing.

*Breaks in*

Alright, a few words on the commies, plus my role PM.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The entirety of the following role sheet is to be considered RED material and revealed only under the circumstances outlined in the role sheet below or with the permission of the host.

Role: Communist Cell Leader

Alignment: Communist (cult)

Summary: You infiltrated the United States as a displaced Pole just after the Great Patriotic War, but you are actually one of the “Swords and Shields of the Party” – KGB. Your general mission was to locate a town in the USA that might be taken over from within, quietly, so as to serve as a forward base for KGB operations and/or to foment a proletarian revolution in the United States. Naturally enough, you ended up in Fatlington.
Currently, you are on the horns of a personal dilemma, and faced with a critical choice. Having tasted life in the West, you are not entirely sure that returning to Stalin’s Russia is what you want – at least not without some great success to ensure that you are elevated to the higher echelons of the KGB…or even the Politburo. You have even thought of defecting, but know that it could carry risks from your own cell-mates if you even begin to tread such a path.
Just recently, you have learned that a US nuclear warheads specialist is trying to defect to the USSR. You have been given a codeword to recognize this scientist so that you might arrange their exfiltration to the Rodina. This could be the plum that assures you elevation upon your eventual return.
Your mission is varied and difficult – and you have a choice to make – but the potential for huge success is there, if you can make it work.

Victory Conditions: Use the following scale to help you plan your strategy:

Decisive Victory = Your Cell wipes out all opposition and takes control of Fatlington outright by recruiting members and eliminating opposition until your faction has a majority of the surviving player population.
Clear Victory = Your Cell wipes out all opposition and takes control of Fatlington outright by recruiting members and eliminating opposition until your faction has a majority of the surviving player population,
Close Victory = Your Cell, having infiltrated some other faction (town, mafia, etc.), has effective control of Fatlington by having more voices in this “ruling committee” than any other.
Draw = A crime family or the townie leadership controls the town, but 3 or more of your cell members survive (including recruits).
Close Defeat = A crime family or the townie leadership controls the town, but one of your original cell members survive.
Clear Defeat = A crime family or the townie leadership controls the town and your cell has been destroyed.
Crushing Defeat = A crime family or the townie leadership controls the town and your cell has been destroyed.
• Ensuring that no Fatlington Detective or FBI detective survives raises your victory level by one step.
• Ensuring that none of the mafia Dons survive raises your victory level by one step.
• Your personal death decreases your victory level by two steps.
• Successful exfiltration of the nuke warheads defector raises your victory level by two steps.

NOTE: Should you be given a chance to defect and take that chance, your victory conditions would switch to those of a townie. Your personal survival would count for a two step increase in victory level under such circumstances. In addition, you would gain a further victory step level for the eradication of the remainder of the Communist cell. The defector’s successful exfiltration would lose you two steps under this revision.

Abilities:

Daytime:

1. You may vote to lynch or select as can any other player.

2. To signal your presence to the defector, you are to use the word “Ker-chop” in the public thread so as to draw their attention (you may also have your deputy or a recruit member do so if you wish). The defector should respond with “Sorge” but cannot PM you until after posting that countersign in the public thread. You are not allowed to PM or otherwise contact the defector until you have seen the countersign posted.

3. Your Cell’s Secretary is Ishmael. Your Secretary is responsible for recruiting, and ust provide you with a list of those successfully recruited (some of whom could be plants). Your Cell’s Enforcer is unknown to you, but is known to your deputy.

4. Should either the Secretary or the Enforce be killed, you can name their replacement from among the recruit members.

Nightime:

Active Actions

1. In combination with 2 other townies, you can form a protection group (3 required) and attempt to protect one other player. If no attack occurs, nothing happens. If the target is attacked your group will save her/him and receive credit for the save. More than 3 townies can work (limit 5) in the same group, though this does not provide any other benefit aside from participation credit. If only 2 townies participate in a save effort and the target is attacked, that effort automatically fails. If you by yourself attempt a save and the target is attacked, that effort fails and you have as a 1 in 6 chance of/being revealed by name (though not by role). When attempting a protection you may also investigate one person.

2. In combination with 4 other townies, you may to attempt to kill a target. If you do so, you may not investigate anyone that night. As with other such townie groups, fewer than five will automatically fail and a solo effort will not only fail but creates a 1 in 6 chance of your being revealed by name.

3. After having established a full connection with the Defector, you may initiate a two night extraction sequence. The First Night, you, the Defector, and two other communists must write orders indicating that you are making preparations to extract the defector. On the Second Night, you, the Defector and at least two other communists must write orders indicating that you are effecting the extraction. A successful attack (even if stopped by luck but not if stopped by protection) on any member of these teams blocks the extraction process. If that occurs, you must repeat the two-night sequence. The members of the extraction team do NOT need to be the same on both nights, however, except for you and the Defector.

Passive Actions

1. Each night you may investigate one (if doing an active protection group) or two (if not taking any active night action) other players to check their susceptibility to recruitment by the communists.

Secret Abilities/Traits:

These are listed in your second pre-game PM and are not to be revealed or discussed during play…only used.

Regarding Investigations

1. If you are investigated, you will be discovered as “innocent” by either a made or a detective. They will have a chance to learn your role, but that chance will be less than their normal chance. If you participate in a successful killing, your status will read “guilty” as would a normal townie (your cover).

2. If conducting an investigation, you will learn if that player is susceptible, possibly susceptible, unlikely, or impossible to recruit. Few if any listed as susceptible will be plants, with an increasing chance of a plant thereafter.

Role Changing: You may not change roles, though your cover role may change as appropriate for a normal townie.

First of all, you guys suck at catching commies. TLD and I were were exchanging codewords in the thread. :P Second of all, we had a bad run of things in my opinion, not only due to luck.

More to come in the next post of mine.

As you can see, I had the potential to betray my cult members. I was approached prior to the game by ATPG about him making me CdTC, etc, like the others got. I thought, why not? And decided to see what would happen. Then I ended up getting my commie role PM. WHich almost nullified my plans. With the ability to betray my team, I contacted ATPG and revealed my entire team to him and my cell mates. I said we need to work together to find the guy who can help me defect. However, I began to quite like my cult mates, and was debating to pretend to be loyal and use ATPG for information until the time came where we could crush him, and then move into a strong position. I was debating this until I died.

Anyway, the commies had:

1 Leader (Possible traitor) - Visor
1 Recruiter - Ishmael
1 Enforcer (Can protect a target every second night, can kill rogue commies (disloyal ones) and can do a roleblock) - Clitsome

We also had TLD who eventually came into contact with us.

The problems with the commies, is that we had far too many unsusceptible people, and everyone was against us regardless of faction, and we were a scum team on our own. We also had no luck traits, any of us I believe. The commies had it too hard I believe, as if the leader rebelled, bang, commies are gone. And also, no-one wanted to join the commies. EVER.

Xenon - Spy
Shlin - SPy
Sigurd - New system forced him
DiY - Nope
Nightbringer - Nope
Edse said nope
I think there were more as well.

They were simply too weak.

But it was a good game regardless, and congrats ATPG and thanks to Seamus, Khaan and GH.

EDIT: My thoughts on DS's role. I didn't personally like it being added into the game.

Following on from Visor's post, here's my role PM if anybody is interested:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The entirety of the following role sheet is to be considered RED material and revealed only under the circumstances outlined in the role sheet below or with the permission of the host.

Role: Communist Cell Secretary

Alignment: Communist (cult)

Summary: When you were 16, your father was murdered by the fascists in Spain. Franco’s thugs were not motivated to take prisoners when facing the Abraham Lincoln brigade – and they certainly didn’t care about his U.S. citizenship. The conservatives in the US tried to block every reform and to stifle any effort to make the gentry pay their fair share! The US may have gotten past the ossified class system of Europe, but ownership of the means of production is still firmly locked away from the peop le who actually work for a living. You have taken up your father’s cause with a vengeance.
You have worked your way up in the ranks of those working to bring about the radiant future. Your current cell’s task is to, in blunt terms, take over Fatlington in secret so that it may serve as the springboard for a proletarian revolution to sweep North America, when you can take your place as a key member in the new Soviet. You know that there will be opposition: the government and its police lackeys must be defeated and so must the mafia. In fact, the only thing good about the mafia is that they are at least honest about their exploitative capitalism – but they too are enemies of the future. Your mission is varied and difficult but the potential for huge success is there, if you can make it work.

Victory Conditions: Use the following scale to help you plan your strategy:

Decisive Victory = Your Cell wipes out all opposition and takes control of Fatlington outright by recruiting members and eliminating opposition until your faction has a majority of the surviving player population.
Clear Victory = Your Cell wipes out all opposition and takes control of Fatlington outright by recruiting members and eliminating opposition until your faction has a majority of the surviving player population,
Close Victory = Your Cell, having infiltrated some other faction (town, mafia, etc.), has effective control of Fatlington by having more voices in this “ruling committee” than any other.
Draw = A crime family or the townie leadership controls the town, but 3 or more of your cell members survive (including recruits).
Close Defeat = A crime family or the townie leadership controls the town, but one of your original cell members survive.
Clear Defeat = A crime family or the townie leadership controls the town and your cell has been destroyed.
Crushing Defeat = A crime family or the townie leadership controls the town and your cell has been destroyed.
• Ensuring that no Fatlington Detective or FBI detective survives raises your victory level by one step.
• Ensuring that none of the mafia Dons survive raises your victory level by one step.
• Your personal death decreases your victory level by one step.
• Recruiting 3 or 4 new members raises your victory level by one, 5 or mor recruits raises it by two.
• Becoming Cell Leader raises your victory level by one step.

Abilities:

Daytime:

1. You may vote to lynch or select as can any other player.

2. Your Cell’s Leader is Visorslash. Your leader is responsible for acquiring information about potential recruits and for handling any special tasks assigned by higher Soviet authority. Your Cell’s Enforcer is Clitsome, and is tasked with assisting you and/or removing any who attempt to infiltrate the cell. As a security precaution, you know the Cell Enforcer’s identity and the Cell Leader’s identity, but neither of them is known to the other.

3. Should the Cell Leader be killed, you will take over that job and those responsibilities. Should the Enforcer or you be killed, the leader will name your replacement.

4. You must provide the Cell Leader with a list of all successful recruits. Providing this information to the Enforcer is at your discretion.

Nightime:

Active Actions

1. In combination with 2 other townies, you can form a protection group (3 required) and attempt to protect one other player. If no attack occurs, nothing happens. If the target is attacked your group will save her/him and receive credit for the save. More than 3 townies can work (limit 5) in the same group, though this does not provide any other benefit aside from participation credit. If only 2 townies participate in a save effort and the target is attacked, that effort automatically fails. If you by yourself attempt a save and the target is attacked, that effort fails and you have as a 1 in 6 chance of/being revealed by name (though not by role). When attempting a protection you may also investigate one person.

2. In combination with 4 other townies, you may to attempt to kill a target. If you do so, you may not investigate anyone that night. As with other such townie groups, fewer than five will automatically fail and a solo effort will not only fail but creates a 1 in 6 chance of your being revealed by name.

3. You may attempt to recruit one other player per night. Depending on their susceptibility level, they will be completely loyal, loyal but not compelled to maintain that loyalty, or a disloyal plant there to damage the cause. The greater the susceptibility level of the recruit target, the more likely you will be recruiting a dedicated new member.

Passive Actions

1. Each night you may investigate one (if doing an active protection group or recruiting effort) or two (if not taking any active night action) other communist cell members to try to determine their loyalty and/or role. This chance starts at a level one step below the success level for basic investigations, but increases in accuracy with each repeat investigation of the same player.

Secret Abilities/Traits:

These are listed in your second pre-game PM and are not to be revealed or discussed during play…only used.

Regarding Investigations

1. If you are investigated, you will be discovered as “unclear” by either a made or a detective. They will have a chance to learn your role, but that chance will be less than their normal chance. If you participate in a successful killing, your status will read “guilty” as would a normal townie (your cover).

2. If conducting an investigation, you will learn if that player is fanatically loyal, probably loyal, seemingly loyal, or disloyal. Initial results may seem “off” but as these investigations deepen, your information will become more accurate.

Role Changing: You may not change roles, though your cover role may change as appropriate for a normal townie.

As well as my special ability (which I didn't end up using):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Special Trait: The Stare

You have “the stare.” Every so often, you can look at somebody and leave them befuddled and listless [Role Blocker]. They will be unable to take any action that night. Unfortunately, because of the splitting headache you get when doing this, neither will you. You may use this ability twice.

I think the thing that did us in was the fact that absolutely nobody was susceptible to recruitment. Seriously, of around 10+ people we recruited/scanned, only 1 (Sigurd) was susceptible and could therefore be recruited as a loyal member (not counting TLD, who was a special case). Speaking of which, would either of our hosts know how susceptibility was determined? Was there a master list somewhere, was it a dice roll, or something else?

Also, apologies to the town for misleading you somewhat as to our numbers - it turns out our huge network that had infiltrated all the families consisted solely of TLD and Sigurd for most of the time we were in contact (here's a QT we had with the town). It's probably my fault, I don't like admitting weakness :D.

EDIT: Aha, I knew I was justified in my suspicion of you at the start Visorslash! You were my N1 loyalty scan, but it came up as 'uncertain' and so I ignored it :D.

If the commies had gotten a doctor or two, or snagged some mafiosi... that would have been brutal.

People kept saying "no", what was wrong with them?

Oh yeah, I knew who the commies were and told people I was going to obliterate them. There might have been that.

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Oh yeah, I knew who the commies were and told people I was going to obliterate them. There might have been that.

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The only reason I told you that is because defection was a good plan. :P

But the guy, Tratorix died, that's why I said DAMN YOU TRATORIX after his alignment was revealed. :P

Also, I believe that some of those people we tried to recruit were unsceptible anyway. :P

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Originally Posted by Visorslash

That's why I said DAMN YOU TRATORIX after his alignment was revealed. :P

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People need reasons to say "damn you Tratorix" now? :dizzy2: I always thought it was implied.

Okay, so let's tally it up, shall we.


1) Donna Stracchi reveals herself to me, unprompted. (fyremarble)
2) Don Cunio reveals himself to me, unprompted. (gnarlycharlie)
3) Made Corleone reveals herself to me. (Renata)
4) Town doctors reveal themselves to me. (Beefy, Nightbringer, Populus Romanus....)
5) Serial Killer reveals himself to me, unprompted. (Kagemusha)
6) Communist Cell leader reveals himself to me. (Visorslash)
7) Communist Cell leader reveals entire cult to me. (Ishmael, OTLD, Clitsome)
8) Stracchi Don reveals Made and Luca to me (Moros, Camikaze)
9) FPD reveals himself early for no reason, publicly (BillMc)
10) FBI agent reveals himself to me. (Believer)
11) When prompted, half the wiseguys in the game and the townies who want to do vig kills reveal themselves to me.


Then I use my contacts, their investigation results, and deductive reasoning based on night action results I can see, and all of a sudden I know who basically everyone is except for the other Serial Killer, with a small margin of error.


Here's my issue. I can't just hand over fyremarble and gnarlycharlie and Renata to the town, that's lame as all heck.

I also can't just hand over the entire communist cell to the FBI.... or the FBI to the communist cell.

I also don't want to hand over all the doctors to the mafia.

I know too much information and what I decided to do with it was make everyone who wanted to promote into someone stronger, and largely left the power roles alone for as long as possible, so you guys would have a fairer game. But I shouldn't have to make choices like that. Stop revealing everything to me even when I ask, and especially when I don't, or else this sort of stuff happens. I addressed this before the game and yall didn't listen to me.

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Thing is I'm not really given a choice; if there is a pro-town network they usually try to get me not only involved, but overly informed. Soon I learn all the sensitive info and have more control over the game than anyone really should. It gets boring on repeat viewings as I said. And I've done it. I've done it to death.... Buffy Mafia, Capo III, Pirate Ship, Midgard, Rubicon, you name it, I've done it to death.

I don't wanna. I am clearly not the only person in a group of 110 who could perform this task. Someone else can be your star quarterback, easily! LOTS of talented folks here. Lots of highly experienced, highly motivated, friendly, communicative, active, cunning people. They really deserve a shot at that role, and if I am competing for such a role, people will likely go for me again based on old patterns. I have to decline.

I put a lot of effort into signing up other folks because at the heart of this game, I want to see others succeed in the big game. I have my superbowl trophy and thensome by now, and you're overlooking a lot of talent if you don't look elsewhere first. As talkative as I am and as much effort as I put into the game, I do recognize this is not a game all about Askthepizzaguy.

I do not want Capo IV to be all about Askthepizzaguy. So I must request that folks not expect me to fill in the same familiar roles.

That's the first point. It's not fun, and it's time for others to shine. Let's do something different.

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You did not listen to me, and I told you not to do this same kind of stuff and you did it anyway.

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You'll be blabbing your identities to me ANYWAY, I can't stop you, I've asked enough times and you never listen.

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You'll be blabbing your identities to me ANYWAY, I can't stop you, I've asked enough times and you never listen.

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You'll be blabbing your identities to me ANYWAY, I can't stop you, I've asked enough times and you never listen.

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You'll be blabbing your identities to me ANYWAY, I can't stop you, I've asked enough times and you never listen.

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You'll be blabbing your identities to me ANYWAY, I can't stop you, I've asked enough times and you never listen.

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You never listen.



This is what happens. Stop making me the center of the pro-town network, I'm just going to repeat everything you told me in-thread from now on, forever. STOP IT.

If I ask you for your info.... try saying no sometimes!

On my part, to be fair, you contacted me before the game, and considering I had a chance to defect, I thought that I'd follow through with your plan.

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Originally Posted by Visorslash

On my part, to be fair, you contacted me before the game, and considering I had a chance to defect, I thought that I'd follow through with your plan.

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And then LazyMcCrow comes along and stabs you to death and all of a sudden you're the dead leader of a communist cult that I'm aware of completely who also doesn't trust me and stops communicating with me for the most part.... It just didn't work out too well for you guys after that.


We can't change what happened in this game, this is more a lesson re-re-re-learned; blabbing it all to Pizza is a recipe for boredom or disaster or both.

Pretty much. Oh well. I regret nothing.

Except not getting protection in hindsight. :P

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Originally Posted by Visorslash

Pretty much. Oh well. I regret nothing.

Except not getting protection in hindsight. :P

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Yeah that was probably the big one.

Also, who am I kidding? Nobody learned any lessons, least of all me. If I've learned anything it is that I can tell everyone what I'm going to do before the game, AND what they're going to do before the game, and then it happens, and then people act surprised.

Never really got into this game and my early death made me lose interest.

Kudos to Seamus, GH and 'khaan for hosting :bow:

Congrats to the victors :bow:

My only foes were the commies, apart from that, I could work with whoever was willing to serve my interests best.

A few questions:

1) who was the "scientist" I was after?
2) Who killed me?
3) Why did I get killed? Except for the commies, nobody had a reason to kill me. After all, since I owed no allegiances and only needed to help those who served my personal interests the best, my services were pretty much for sale.

You wanted TLD dead.

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Originally Posted by Andres

1) who was the "scientist" I was after?
2) Who killed me?
3) Why did I get killed? Except for the commies, nobody had a reason to kill me. After all, since I owed no allegiances and only needed to help those who served my personal interests the best, my services were pretty much for sale.

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1) Scientist was the communist Oh!TheLastDays who was one of the 14 surviving roles.
2) The Pentangeli killed you.

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What Andres failed to take into account was the fact that, his attackers *not* being classy, they had no such reservations about causing a scene. Andres slumped onto the floor, dead before he could pass judgment about the calling card his killers left at the scene: a King of Hearts.

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This was right after I met you and found out you were some special secret role I knew not what. I was not allied or working with them.

3) They could have targeted you if they thought you were a Stracchi Made or wiseguy.... other than that, not a darned clue. Maybe they thought you were working for me and becoming a Made. Which would have been very convenient timing because I think you worked with me once or twice at most.

I am curious who did kill me night one?

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Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

1) Scientist was the communist Oh!TheLastDays who was one of the 14 surviving roles.

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I WILL HAVE MY REVENGE by causing his death in 10 games in a row, he being on the same side as me in those 10 games, and then I'll let him live in the 11th game where his goal will be destroying me.

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Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

And then LazyMcCrow comes along and stabs you to death and all of a sudden you're the dead leader of a communist cult that I'm aware of completely who also doesn't trust me and stops communicating with me for the most part.... It just didn't work out too well for you guys after that.


We can't change what happened in this game, this is more a lesson re-re-re-learned; blabbing it all to Pizza is a recipe for boredom or disaster or both.

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:) heh. I'd do it again in a New Jersey minute if I still thought you were the lawyer, Visorslash :D
EOG comments to follow in the next 24 hours or so - hellish busy at work.

Bah, Pizza, by the time I revealed to you you were already bragging about knowing all the Cuneo and Stracchis -- if I hadn't revealed we'd have gone the way of the Barzinis. Of everything in this game that's one decision I don't regret.

:sneaky:

I wanted to see how far Pizzaman would be allowed his rampage... It seems all the way was the correct answer.
Good job PizzaMAN.

And I like the post count on this game :beam: