Pirates seize U.S. freighter, hold captain for ransom

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From a distance the large ship on the horizon looked like the perfect target, ripe for a successful spot of piracy.

But as the Somali pirates sped toward the vessel sailing near the Seychelles, they were horrified to see two boats and a helicopter set off from their target and launch their own counter-attack.

They had failed to spot, in the dazzling sun, that the 'merchant ship' they thought they were intercepting was, in fact, a French naval ship bristling with cannons, radar technology and armed commandos.

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Quoted just for the coolness of it. :pirate2:

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the three pirate boats were spotted heading toward the frigate Nivose, one of the ships patrolling the region as part of the European Union anti-piracy mission

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Quoted to make the point that the EU is the means by which European nations defend their interests and their liberties. There are EU elections next month, and odds are that the lunatic fringes and the hard right will win big. So I will not tire of insisting that the EU is not about replacing national sovereignty with commie-fascism. Nor is it about undermining your national pride by allowing pink horse urine to be sold as rosé - as some infantile nationalists on this forum seem to think. [/schizophrenia]

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"The guys we catch are getting younger and younger," said one navy soldier. "Look at this one, he can't be 17." A French navy spokesman confirmed the capture of 11 pirates. "The pirates are currently on the Nivose," he said. "For the moment don't have any indication of what the European Union forces want to do with these pirates."

The world's naval powers are dispatching an ever-growing fleet of warships in response to a scourge which is threatening to disrupt one of the world's busiest maritime trade routes.

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This is quoted because we are now running into several problems. The Indian Ocean is turning into an 'Afghanistan of the Sea'. (You read the metahore here first). Like the hills of Afghanistan, we can't patrol the seas indefinitely. We can't kill them all either - we don't do that stuff. We can't lock them all up. State building does not seem to work. What to do with the pirates we catch? And what are we dealing with anyway, when we are fishing out teenage kids?

Swedish media mention that the pirates got released... what's up with that?

So what should be done?

I'd say we take the pirates as hostage until their home-villages has paid up, they should have some cash from former piracy, no?

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Quoted just for the coolness of it. :pirate2:

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That is cool. I can't help but think there's an idea in there somewhere too... I wonder what sort of deterrent effect it would have if we started floating juicy looking freighters or cruise liners along the Somali coast that were actually loaded with armed marines. Maybe after a few dozen hijackings gone wrong, they might start to be a little more reticent about attacking ships. I'm sure there's a stack of reasons why that's not at all practical though. :shame:

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

Swedish media mention that the pirates got released... what's up with that?

So what should be done?

I'd say we take the pirates as hostage until their home-villages has paid up, they should have some cash from former piracy, no?

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Didn't we used to hang pirates?

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Quoted just for the coolness of it. :pirate2:

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:laugh4:

That was pretty cool indeed.

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

Didn't we used to hang pirates?

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We also used to burn "witches" and heretics, you want all that back? Do you believe in the one and only true god and the holy roman catholic church then? If not, there's your haystack already prepared. :inquisitive:

I say shoot them if they resist arrest, otherwise put them in a prison for some time.

Well, and this shows that rescue operations are perhaps not always the best option.

I feel that being on a small boat, loaded with guns, with no attempt to contact the ship to explain one's friendly actions heading for another ship is frankly all the proof one needs.

Don't bog down our courts with this drivel.

~:smoking:

The French military once agian strikes fear into the hearts of rag tag underfed groups of pirates from the third wrold

A force to be reckoned with for sure

Is there no stopping them?

Will they take away our deoderant and ungodly portion sizes?

This American watches in suspense.

~:) ~:) ~:) ~:) ~:) ~:)

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

That is cool. I can't help but think there's an idea in there somewhere too... I wonder what sort of deterrent effect it would have if we started floating juicy looking freighters or cruise liners along the Somali coast that were actually loaded with armed marines. Maybe after a few dozen hijackings gone wrong, they might start to be a little more reticent about attacking ships. I'm sure there's a stack of reasons why that's not at all practical though. :shame:

Didn't we used to hang pirates?

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I was thinking the same thing. Decoy target ships would certainly make the pirates more cautious and selective. However, a program I watched last week about this revived pirate problem claimed that the more organized groups use an extensive intelligence network to scout and choose their targets. The program described China's problem in the early 1990's with piracy. A high ranking official of the harbor security *and those he supervised* in their largest commercial port was found to be in league with the main pirate organization. They got their trial, were convicted and shot. The pirate's crime syndicate moved on to safer areas of operation.

Here's an interesting article on piracy & international law, and the current problems and reluctance of some nations in prosecuting those that are caught. Seems the agreement between the UK and Kenya could be the basis for a solution.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

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Universal jurisdiction only applies to pirates. Based on past experience, captured Somalis are likely to insist in court that they are not pirates, but rather simple fishermen erroneously seized by a foreign Navy.60 Moreover, most Somali pirates are, in fact, fishermen;61 piracy is not a full-time job.6263 Indeed, given that error is not out of the question, such challenges must be taken seriously, but greatly impede prosecution and detention. Numerous foreign nationals captured by the U.S. in Afghanistan claimed that they were not members of the Taliban or Al Qaeda, but rather foreign tourists, aid workers, or other innocent bystanders who happen to find themselves in Afghanistan.64 Moreover, U.S. courts have held that because the power to detain depends on the foreigner’s status as a combatant, detainees can appear before tribunals to challenge the factual basis for being classified as a combatant even before a full trial for their alleged crimes.65 Establishing the very identity of captured individuals will be difficult, as they are unlikely to carry identification or other indicators of nationality.
Every aspect of the prosecution would raise serious logistical problems. Providing counsel and translation services into the defendants’ native language would be extraordinarily difficult, even in neighboring Kenya.66 Transporting prosecution witnesses and evidence to a foreign court would be burdensome. Naval officers in active service would be called upon to testify.67 Identification by victims would be made even more problematic by the fact that multinational crews of foreign-flagged vessels would have returned to their homes around the world.68 Defense witnesses would present an even greater problem. Any provision for the defendants to be able to present evidence in their favor would require ongoing access to Somalia and Somali waters.

In the two cases brought in Kenyan courts at the behest of Western powers so far, the defendants claimed alleged torture and denial of religious privileges by their captors.69 Given that the Somalis are Muslim, the last charge could potentially be seized upon by Islamic countries to incite anti-western sentiment along the lines of incident in Guantánamo where a Koran was allegedly “disrespected.”70 Indeed, it appears the pirates have read the Guantanamo detainees’ playbook.
Other human rights rules of Western countries discourage arresting pirates in the first place, and certainly militate against trying them in Europe. Britain had reportedly affirmatively instructed its ships not to capture pirates they may come across.71 The Foreign Office feared the Somali pirates could claim asylum under European union human rights law once on board a British vessel, and certainly if brought to Britain for trial.72 Because of the routine nonexistence and brutality of the Somali government, the pirates could quite plausibly claim they would be subject to unfair trials, torture and extrajudicial killing if they are repatriated to their home country. Thus the pirates might be able to stay in Britain indefinitely if acquitted or once released. Obtaining European residency would doubtless be seen as a benefit to many Somalis, and the perceived reward for piracy might only increase the piracy problem.

In the face of such problems, it's not surprising that Britain in December took the unusual step of signing a memorandum of understanding with Kenya creating a framework whereby pirates captured by the former would be tried by the latter.73 For Britain this has numerous advantages. It escapes the embarrassment of having to release capture pirates, as Denmark has repeatedly done. In Kenya, the pirates do not benefit from European asylum law or the other expensive protections of the European Convention on Human Rights. The proceedings are relatively speedy and informal, with accusations of torture brushed away by the judge with the observation that the defendants don't appear to be bleeding.74 It is less obvious what Mombasa benefits from this. One might speculate that Britain has promised some sort of foreign aid or other benefits in exchange for the prosecutorial assistance.

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Originally Posted by Husar

:laugh4:

That was pretty cool indeed.



We also used to burn "witches" and heretics, you want all that back? Do you believe in the one and only true god and the holy roman catholic church then? If not, there's your haystack already prepared. :inquisitive:

I say shoot them if they resist arrest, otherwise put them in a prison for some time.

Well, and this shows that rescue operations are perhaps not always the best option.

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Sure, people did bad things in history, that means that everything people did in history is bad...heck, the logic makes sense to me! No more breathing, eating, walking, etc!

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
logic eh :laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
logic eh :laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

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My point exactly Tribesy.

your point ?????:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

I feel that being on a small boat, loaded with guns, with no attempt to contact the ship to explain one's friendly actions heading for another ship is frankly all the proof one needs.

Don't bog down our courts with this drivel.

~:smoking:

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Do you want the same stuff at home? Just shoot someone who put something in his pocket in a shop? Don't bog down the courts with that drivel, yanno. They did something similar when they shot a harmless guy in the London subway, didn't they? Maybe they should shoot you if they find illegal software or music on your Pc as well, don't bog down the courts with so many processes. :dizzy2:

Really Rory, your attitude might be more similar to that of the pirates than you'd ever admit.

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Originally Posted by Just Vuk Again

Sure, people did bad things in history, that means that everything people did in history is bad...heck, the logic makes sense to me! No more breathing, eating, walking, etc!

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Tribesman is right(again ~D ), your post contains no logic and has absolutely no connection to my post that you quoted.

That's the whole point! :wall:

Cause and effect linked in the minds of the pirates. To get caught = death.

Here in the UK we have a functioning government and a functioning courts system. Somalia has nothing. Different rules are therefore in effect.

The aim is to cut down on pirate attacks.

Capture and release does nothing.
Capture and take to West means you've got an asylum case on your hands.
Interdict and sink does work, as it's an economic decision, not a ideological one.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by Husar

Tribesman is right(again ~D ), your post contains no logic and has absolutely no connection to my post that you quoted.

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Not at all. I was sarcastically commenting on the lack of logic in your insinuation that everything done in the past was ignorant and evil. Tribesman needs to pay better attention, as do you sir. :bow:

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

That's the whole point! :wall:

Cause and effect linked in the minds of the pirates. To get caught = death.

Here in the UK we have a functioning government and a functioning courts system. Somalia has nothing. Different rules are therefore in effect.

The aim is to cut down on pirate attacks.

Capture and release does nothing.
Capture and take to West means you've got an asylum case on your hands.
Interdict and sink does work, as it's an economic decision, not a ideological one.

~:smoking:

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Well, some countries were giving the pirates to other african states who lack the navy to hunt the pirates themselves, consider it option four in your list, option five could be making sure that somalia does get a working justicve system, for a start, some villagers in Somalia are trying to fight the pirates themselves I heard.
I see what you mean, I just generally oppose causing bloodshed when it's not necessary at all.

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Originally Posted by Just Vuk Again

Not at all. I was sarcastically commenting on the lack of logic in your insinuation that everything done in the past was ignorant and evil. Tribesman needs to pay better attention, as do you sir. :bow:

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Exactly, you completely missed my point, just like Tribesman and I tried to tell you...

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Originally Posted by Husar

Exactly, you completely missed my point, just like Tribesman and I tried to tell you...

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We also used to burn "witches" and heretics, you want all that back? Do you believe in the one and only true god and the holy roman catholic church then? If not, there's your haystack already prepared.

I say shoot them if they resist arrest, otherwise put them in a prison for some time.

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hmmm...

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Originally Posted by Husar

Well, some countries were giving the pirates to other african states who lack the navy to hunt the pirates themselves, consider it option four in your list, option five could be making sure that somalia does get a working justicve system, for a start, some villagers in Somalia are trying to fight the pirates themselves I heard.

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If there is a watertight deal to drop them off at another state that is an option I'd not considered. Evidence would be a problem... although of course many African states wouldn't be overly troubled by such things, especially if they get money for taking them.
Getting a working justace system is more "ideal" but far far harder and basically not a realistic option IMO. Without clear aims and a clear will - neither are present - it'd go nowhere.
How to enourage the villagers without it turning into scalping 'em for money / a slave trade where people are captured, money is paid by the West and they are thrown in jail down the coast. I guess you probably can't.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by Husar

We also used to burn "witches" and heretics, you want all that back? Do you believe in the one and only true god and the holy roman catholic church then? If not, there's your haystack already prepared. :inquisitive:

I say shoot them if they resist arrest, otherwise put them in a prison for some time.

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Witches were innocent and didn't do any harm. Pirates were not, and steal, kill and threaten people. Very different. As for my sollution, simply let them take a dive in the Indian Ocean. And leave them there. An alternative would be to create a real life version of the movie Saw, with the pirates as playtoys. Those who would be smart enough to survive, would be shipped off to Somalia and they would certainly never attempt to do such a thing again.

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Originally Posted by Jolt

Witches were innocent and didn't do any harm. Pirates were not, and steal, kill and threaten people. Very different. As for my sollution, simply let them take a dive in the Indian Ocean. And leave them there. An alternative would be to create a real life version of the movie Saw, with the pirates as playtoys. Those who would be smart enough to survive, would be shipped off to Somalia and they would certainly never attempt to do such a thing again.

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How many people have the somalian pirates killed so far and since when do we hand out death sentences to thieves? Or do we just do it when they're poor and dark-skinned?
Nowhere did I say do nothing, I just said don't start to massacre them on sight like they're somehow subhumans. As I pointed out above, when the french commandos stormed some yacht, it was one of the frenchies who shot the hostage, so how many people have the pirates killed so far and how many have the various commandos killed(including pirates)?

For the pirates, killing people is somewhat stupid since they want money to hand them back alive. If you make it a life or death game for them, they may be more likely to kill just trying to get out alive themselves. Yes, they do abductions and blackmail but as long as they do not really harm people, I don't really see why they should be shot on sight instead of arrested.

Or maybe someone can provide some links about what kind of bloodthirsty monsters they are, if you got a pic of one eating a baby I will change my mind on the issue. :inquisitive:

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For the pirates, killing people is somewhat stupid since they want money to hand them back alive.

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Yep , killing people is bad for their business , wheras the French and Indians have both screwed up by killing the people they were there to protect .

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Originally Posted by Husar

How many people have the somalian pirates killed so far and since when do we
hand out death sentences to thieves?

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Thieves who abduct people in exchange for money and are armed, are frequently killed by the police provided they get a chance, taking into account those that they don't surrender unless they recieve the money.

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Originally Posted by Husar

Nowhere did I say do nothing, I just said don't start to massacre them on sight like they're somehow subhumans. As I pointed out above, when the french commandos stormed some yacht, it was one of the frenchies who shot the hostage, so how many people have the pirates killed so far and how many have the various commandos killed(including pirates)?

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It's not about rascism as you are trying to spin it, they could be british or american for all I care, if we start "massacring" them, I'm sure many prospect pirates will think twice and thrice before putting their lives at risk.

Its actually the leniency that has led the pirate problem to grow. Since captured pirates know they'll be released or at the very worse serve a couple of years in some prison, more and more people will attack ships throughout the Indian Sea. A death sentence is a much greater incentive to stop attacks, then arrests, releases or fulfilling their ransom demands. The innevitable consequence will be the plummetting of pirate attacks in Somalia and in the Indian Ocean.

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Its actually the leniency that has led the pirate problem to grow. Since captured pirates know they'll be released or at the very worse serve a couple of years in some prison, more and more people will attack ships throughout the Indian Sea. A death sentence is a much greater incentive to stop attacks, then arrests, releases or fulfilling their ransom demands. The innevitable consequence will be the plummetting of pirate attacks in Somalia and in the Indian Ocean.

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Bollox , unless you can show where piracy has decreased off Africa S.America or Asia due to the death penalty?

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A death sentence is a much greater incentive to stop attacks, then arrests, releases or fulfilling their ransom demands.

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Not really , operating a tower crane is usually a death sentence , the pay makes up for that , so that is the short term incentive for taking the job with the risks...so the answer to piracy is either remove the incentive or offer alternative viable employment, since the former means leaving hostages unpaid to either be released as useless assets or eradicated as inconvenient witnesses in any future case means its really a simple question .

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Originally Posted by Jolt

Thieves who abduct people in exchange for money and are armed, are frequently killed by the police provided they get a chance, taking into account those that they don't surrender unless they recieve the money.

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http://www.ehow.com/how_2093481_be-p...egotiator.html

Usually the objective of the police is to get everyone out alive for similar reasons that they try to prevent suicides, shooting the criminals is usually a means to save their potential victims when other options are exhausted and there is a real chance that the criminal will actually kill people. The latter chance is rather slim here.

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Originally Posted by Husar

I say shoot them if they resist arrest, otherwise put them in a prison for some time.

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What's the fun in that? You're civilised boring, Husar :mean:

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Not really , operating a tower crane is usually a death sentence , the pay makes up for that , so that is the short term incentive for taking the job with the risks...so the answer to piracy is either remove the incentive or offer alternative viable employment, since the former means leaving hostages unpaid to either be released as useless assets or eradicated as inconvenient witnesses in any future case means its really a simple question .

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I concur.

On the other hand, if no longer paying for the hostages is not an option, then what would you do to take away the underlying causes, i.e. how would you bring stability to the country, a stable, strong government, create enough employment, etc.?

And even if you would manage to come with a workable solution (not likely in the near or even distant future), it's probably going to take a very long time.

In the meanwhile, we have the current, accute problem.

The pirates are there and now, causing alot of damage. How to stop that in a relatively short amount of time without resorting to shooting them? Capture them and put them in jail? All of them? For how long? Where are you going to put them in jail? Or just send them back to Somalia? Who's going to pay for all that? Are people willing to pay for it (bullets are cheaper)?

I propose you take a look at a myriad of cases which happened in Brazil (One of the worse countries in terms of kidnapping). The fact that you are given a choice between a sniper putting a bullet to the head of a armed and barricaded kidnapper and ending the situation right there, or prolonging what could be increasingly potentially dangerous, the choice they take is (Obviously) not to take any risks and kill the kidnapper. But that's beside the point.

In any way, as for proof that the death penalty works in stopping piracy, I can't give you proof since according to my knowledge, killing pirates is not practiced anywhere in the world, because there are hardly any piracy problems in the world, and these are not so huge as to demand an international fleet to protect the merchant ships.

Many of those poor pirates are already filthy rich from the millions they blackmailed, but I'm not defending not saving hostages. I'm defending certain death for the pirates captured. From my point of view, I wouldn't mind assaulting merchant ships where the potential price is millions of dollars in ransoms, if the ultimate drawback would be say, 2 to 5 years in a prison. Now if I knew that if I was captured I'd be killed, I doubt I would ever attempt doing such a thing, no matter how poor I was. I would be trying to survive, not die. But that's just my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Jolt

Now if I knew that if I was captured I'd be killed, I doubt I would ever attempt doing such a thing, no matter how poor I was. I would be trying to survive, not die. But that's just my opinion.

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I've never been poor nor living in completely desperate circumstances, so I don't know what I would do :shrug:

Also, are the guys in those small boats, waving guns and jumping on board of big ships the leaders, the big fishes?

If you kill them, wouldn't the real leaders just recruit other desperate guys to try again? Guys who probably don't even know they might get killed? Or maybe the pirate leaders could just put a gun against the heads of desperate people and tell them to either take their chances or die immediately?

Somalia is not exactly a country filled with hard working, middle class citizens and just a small minority of poor and desperate people.

Plenty of recruits and plenty of opportunities to force unwilling potential recruits for a smart, rich, ruthless and hardened criminal.

Anyway, that's how I would run my pirate business (if I would be evil). I wouldn't jump on those (guarded) ships myself, I'd force a few poor chaps to do it for me and let the ransom money be transferred to my bankaccounts. As a pirate leader, I would not care about the couple of hundreds poor guys that would get shot.

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Originally Posted by Andres

Anyway, that's how I would run my pirate business (if I would be evil). I wouldn't jump on those (guarded) ships myself, I'd force a few poor chaps to do it for me and let the ransom money be transferred to my bankaccounts. As a pirate leader, I would not care about the couple of hundreds poor guys that would get shot.

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Otherwise known as being an Arab sheikh, bosom friend to Western arms dealers and politicians.

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Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost

Otherwise known as being an Arab sheikh, bosom friend to Western arms dealers and politicians.

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That's a likely possibility. I think it would be wrong to assume that you are dealing with a few random criminals, this is probably international organised crime at a high level and there's a lot of money involved.

After the money has been transferred to accounts at some probably dubious banks, the money laundry machine will make it almost impossible to trace.

Shooting a few desperate Somalians won't bring a solution to your problem.

Of course, something must be done against the guys waving guns and jumping on ships and protection should be offered to those merchant ships, but if you want to deal with this problem, you'll have to hunt down the leaders of the organisation, who are probably not only almost impossible to trace, but also rich, influential and with close ties to both corrupt African regimes and some western politicians.

But that won't stop others to try it again or to try something similar. A country with no strong government, unsafety, chaos, poverty and desperation is an ideal climate for anyone interested in starting a career in organised crime: plenty of cheap employees willing to do (voluntarily or forced) what you want them to do.

If you have the guts, have some money to "invest", know some people, are a bit handy and have some knowledge of corporate, tax and financial law, then you can have a bright future in Somalia or any other desperately poor and unstable country, without much risk of getting caught.

Welcome to the world of organised international crime :shrug:

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Originally Posted by Andres

The pirates are there and now, causing alot of damage. How to stop that in a relatively short amount of time without resorting to shooting them? Capture them and put them in jail? All of them? For how long? Where are you going to put them in jail? Or just send them back to Somalia? Who's going to pay for all that? Are people willing to pay for it (bullets are cheaper)?

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I heard Kenia took some of them already, gave them a legal process and all that and probably liked the international attention it got. The problem with Kenia etc. is that they have almost no functioning navy or coast guard so they cannot hunt pirates themselves, i remember reading a statement from an african coast guard officer who said their boats would sink out in the open sea so they could not even follow the pirates out there. Maybe giving the africans some nice ships to patrol the sea there and paying them a bit for it might help. should be cheaper than doing it ourselves and maybe if we pump money into the region that way they can afford more weapons to kill eachother actually develop some sort of economy and government etc in somalia somehow. Alternatively we could reestablish the islamic courts under the condition that they treat women better or something, offer them a nice deal that we all benefit from.

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Originally Posted by Jolt

I propose you take a look at a myriad of cases which happened in Brazil (One of the worse countries in terms of kidnapping). The fact that you are given a choice between a sniper putting a bullet to the head of a armed and barricaded kidnapper and ending the situation right there, or prolonging what could be increasingly potentially dangerous, the choice they take is (Obviously) not to take any risks and kill the kidnapper.

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Brazil is a great example, Brazil also has police death squads, huge crime rates, local vigilante militias and is generally seen as one of the more dangerous countries of the world, obviously their tactics are working great. ~:rolleyes:

Talked of Brazil in regards to the situation about police behaviour. Trying to compare the situation in Brazil to Somalia is like comparing a chocolate cake with a supernova.