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have to ALL adapt to the existign (host) coutnries culture/traditions etc.
That is called monoculture.
or ALL input your own personal culture into the public culture...
sadly, this will never be possible,
That is what I say, you agree more with me then you think, I may have a brown shirt here that is just your size ~;)
I think i agree that there is little of chance of a complete multiculture working, but i maintain that it will become possible, and that as an ideal it is well..ideal...Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
(is the shirt free)
and thanks for monoculture (i will add it to my {rapidly} growing list of definitions next to the computer :2thumbsup: )
You may find this interesting then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scurvy
(I also linked it in the “Am I bovvered?” thread.)
Being idealist isn't a virtue on it's own, especially when your ideals affect other peoples lives, but many lefties think it is, and when the shit hits the fan at least they can say they meant well and be morally superior. A merely 'we mean well' on it's own just isn't good enough, we need to be realistic when it comes to things like this. Shirt is free, but it does come with a daily march and complete loyalty to uberstormorger Fragony and maybe a few of your sisters to keep me happy :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by Scurvy
Quite good. It's turning into suburbia though. I'll probably leave here, I prefer either the country or the city, but no immigrant related problems that I know of.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Faulty reasoning. The correct formulation is disenfranchisement and alienation brings crime, as I have somewhat difficult time believing immigrants are for some reason sui generis compared to the native criminals. It is the disenfranchisement and/or alienation of the immigrants that bring crime, the same way that happens with native groups, not the immigration itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
That extra causal step is pretty important.
Particularly as lack of trust in the willingness and ability of the institutions of the host society (regardless of the individual's background) to treat people fairly and equally, in particular in judicial matters, is thought to be among the most important factors that produce disregard of the community's nominal rules and norms and a willingness to abuse them to one's own benefit.
Or, put this way. If the individual perceives that the social institutions treat him basically fairly and equally to others, he is all other things being equal going to trust them more in part as he knows he can turn to them for justice if slighted. Figuratively speaking, this lets him "risk" trusting other people in general and not just his immediate reference group, and concretely speaking makes him more likely to "play by the rules" and respect the norms as he thinks those are actually upheld and enforced and apply to others too. However, if he perceives them treating himself or other basically unfairly -why and how and when isn't really important- this is no longer the case. The more unfairness and injustice he perceives, the less respect he will have to the nominal rules and norms as so far as he can tell those are not respected and upheld by others, in particular the social institutions that are supposed to protect him from possible wrongdoing by others, and instead unequally disadvantage and advantage particular groups. This incidentally also applies if the unfairness is to his personal advantage - this is after all essentially corruption. The less reason he has to trust the supposedly objective institutions and norms, the less he respects them, the more willing he is to "play foul", the more he suspects others of the same, the less he trusts others by default, the more he "turns inward" into a smaller reference group he thinks he can trust for some reason - family relations, shared ethnicity, membership in the same strongly normative group - and distrust those outside it...
The above is my nutshell explanation of the elementary theory of social trap, a concept of Social Sciences, so named because such a "malign circle" of distrust is difficult to break and prone to afflicting entire societies.
I don't think it's particularly difficult to see why immigrants are particularly prone to the phenomenom. This goes doubly for ones in societies whose level of "social trust" is already low, of which I think the USA with its only recently broken extensive tradition of endemic ethnic particularism in law enforcement (one of the opening scenes of the first Godfather movie, where an until then law-abiding and "generally trusting" Italian immigrant badly let down by the courts that allowed two young WASP types who assaulted his daughter to go free turns to Don Corleone in search of justice, is apparently a good illustration of the phenomenom; and how long ago was it that blacks got full and equal rights anyway...?) nevermind chronic, deep-seated and to some degree quite justified distrust of federal authorities and other citizens, is a sadly good example.
Second- and further-generation immigrants are particularly vulnerable, as unlike the first generation they lack immediate personal ties to another culture and country; so far as they are concerned they are born and bred full citizens of their countries, and if they feel this sense of belonging is spurned (because of ethnicity or whatever) they are going to be quite deeply offended and disappointed; moreover, they'll be left without any larger frame of reference to belong to (as they tend to not feel they have too much in common with their parents' culture), and such "castaway" youths and young men in particular have always and everywhere been a prime source of trouble.
The same incidentally often afflicts native youths as well, mainly on the grounds of social background and/or place of origin; the immigrants just have the added complication of ethnicity thrown in.
'Course, the alienation and resulting troblemaking of such groups is only going to make the society at large become even more hostile towards them, which near invariably tends to lead to mutual "taint by association" (à la "all immigrants/blacks/New Jersey folk are criminals/thieves/lazy social bums" sentiments and conversely "all whiteys/natives/Washingtonians are racist/in cahoots against us/exploitative rich gits"), which lead to further distrust and segregation if only through the mechanics of self-fulfilling prophecy...
There's good reasons why they call it the "social trap."
Illegal immigrants, who tend to have perfectly good reasons to regard the authorities as their enemies in the first place, and both out of sheer common sense and practical experience (as the "snakeheads" and organizations that smuggle many if not most of them tend not be excessively nice people), nevermind now that the natives who hire them are skirting the law by default and quite often downright exploit them, are obviously almost certain not to have much in the way of common ground with the laws and norms of the surrounding society which to boot tends to actively resent them on general principles. And they just wanted to better their lot in life and get ahead in the world...
***
Curio detail: around the time the part of he city I live in was built and we bought the apartement, a large number of Somalian refugees arrived in Finland. Probably the majority ended up staying for good, and quite a few seem to have settled down in my neighbourhood.
Can't say I've noticed high crime rates or something, and the three times I've been attacked on the street the aggressors were native Finns (and drunk). The little kids of the next block over, whose playground happens to be in good view of my window, also seem to be getting along right fine regardless of skin color.
So nyah.
That is a very informative post, Watchman.Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
I do have some criticisms.
It doesn't explain why it is that precisely in the European countries with the highest levels of social trust the biggest problems with racially motivated minority crime exists. The commonly accepted world champions of social trust, equal opportunity and social-economic equality are the Nordic countries and the Netherlands. Contrary to the social trap theory of disenfranchisement and alienation, they are in the forefront of increasing racial tension in Europe.
Nor does it explain why the country that is traditionally cited as the other extremity of social trust in the western world, the US, that 'first world nation with thirld world income inequality', experiences less alienation amongst ethnic lines than northwest Europe.
The social trap theory is an excellent one, but it is not the end all of all social explanations for differing crime rates amongst different groups. I think the aspect of culture needs a more prominent place in social sciences. People are not mechanical, blank creatures undergoing social processes in almost industrial fashion.
They undergo these processes with expectations, abilities, outlooks and social values. In short, with cultural values. Which are in turn subject to, and shaped by, these social mechanisms. In a very intricate process, making it extremely difficult to tell what aspects of behaviour is best described by social mechanisms or by cultural values.
Cultures are different, both geographically and historically. Contemporary Swedish culture isn't even remotely comparable to Swedish culture from even half a century ago. If we could make a Swede with the cultural expectations of fifty years ago undergo the same social mechanisms as a present-day Swede, the results would be vastly different. Cultures also vary geographically. If we make a Swede and a Somali undergo the same social mechanisms, the results would be vastly different again.
Accepting that cultures are different, we must also accept that there are different cultural driven responses to a process of disenfranchisement and alienation. Responses that also affect crime rates resulting from this alienation.
I'm not so sure about that. Remember that, as in the US the largest problems is asociated with ghettos.Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
My, still very primitive, theory is that the social network causes a two-fold problem in Europe:Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
1) the nanny state treats immigrants as second class citizens, I've already explained before how government services created to support students have actively discouraged young immigrants from following the more intellectually challenging' courses. I wouldn't be surprised if the agencies responsible for helping people get jobs also give immigrants second rate jobs, or forces them to follow courses/programs far under their capability.
2) Limited capitalism. Rich people get treated nicely, whatever their race. They can provide their children with the means to pursue a successful career and are generally well integrated, simply because the rest of society bends itself to the needs of the rich (they go where the money is). Starting a business in most of Europe is pretty hard compared to the US (a few notable exceptions), taxes are very high, making it less attractive to try and gather much money in the first place (social services provides anyway).
I think the first point is probably the most important one, 'we' have treated immigrants as second-rate citizens that need our help. They want to prove that they're just as good, or better, than us and don't need our help. This frustration can lead to violence in those who don't yet know how to control their emotions (aka teenagers).
The same thing happened in the US, they were trying to keep 'the black man' down. I suspected things have sorted themselves out by now (for the most part, their will always be idiots). After this has happened once, it's probably easier for it to happen again (acception of hispanics for example).
Fragony you can read swedish??
Oh, and some days ago a school here stated that all students that sympatised with 'racist opinions' (wathever that might be) should automaticly get the lowest grade possible in certain subjects.
It doesn't matter how good and how hard you work in school if your political incorrect point of view is known by the teachers...
:laugh4:
You are free too think what you want but you are not allowed to say it loud. I don't know if I live i Sweden or DDR.
And a question for fellow europeans. Are you allowed to sing your national hymn when the school ends in spring?
In some schools here you can't because it is considered racist...
And you know those classphotos they take. You can't have a t-shirt saying "I love Sweden". It's true. :laugh4:
Btw, only two or three days ago a girl was raped in Rosengård, one of the worst gettos in Sweden. A time ago a team of reporters went there to show us Swedes the 'myth' about alot of the inhabitants there are criminals.
Guess what happens: The girl who is filming is kicked down and the camera is stolen by immegrants. Haha...
Wow Radier, that is really stunning , someone got raped and someone got mugged ....in a bad part of town ...hold the front page:dizzy2:
Lets see , this week there has been a rape , a shooting , 4 stabbings , god knows how many muggings and someone burnt alive ....it must be the immigrants and the ghetto , well ...apart from the fact that it was locals :shrug:
Yeah I read about that and what is good is that pretty much all are against what they did and is in clear violating against freedom of opinion in schools.Quote:
Originally Posted by Radier
Eeehhmm so ??Quote:
Originally Posted by Radier
There are girls getting raped all the time in our country.
Hell they just caught a guy that raped several women and guess where he is from ??
And the answer is, he is swedish.
It was a episode of "efterlyst" they were doing and where filming a spot where a crime had happened which is funny because the scene became a scene of crime again :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by Radier
Yes TB666 women are raped all the time. What do the government do:
*They have very short jail sentences. Some times the rapist goes free.
*They don't send the criminal immegrants out.
Hagamannen was swedish, and that is why they published the name and face so quickly :sweatdrop: . When a guy named muhammed rapes they never publish that.
But anyway I want a very hard sentence on this Hagamannen.
But you can't deny that most rapes are comitted by immegrants.
I can and I will until you prove with actual statistics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Radier
Truth is that we don't know.
Nazis says it is and I don't trust them and neither should anyone.
What about reality? What about knowing people who allmost have been raped by arabs? ( I know about three of them) In allmost every 'efterlyst' there are rapes by immegrants.Quote:
Originally Posted by TB666
http://www.bra.se/extra/measurepoint...lsveutland.pdf
Look at page 37 escpecially and you clearly see the overrepresentation of crimes comitted by immegrants.
Despite the known facts, let's be resonable. We all know what kind of people that rapes. Did you see that report from Oslo last year. I think the over-representation of rapes comitted by non-europeans streched over 1000 %. I will find that article....
The majority of crimes are commited by immigrants, no idea to deny that, since its the police's own numbers. They Should know.
I read it all in a book, few years ago, and I doubt the numbers have changed much.
Do I have a link? No. Should you trust me? I dont care.
http://aftonbladet.se/vss/nyheter/st...726204,00.html
Remember that article from left-winged Aftonbladet?
Even they admit 50% of the rapes are comitted by immegrants or children to immegrants.
I promise 90% of all Swedes do understand that the majority of all crimes are comitted by immegrants but few dare say it loud. I have been exposed to crime by two arab guys. I have friends who also have been. Where are the swedish gangs that beat people up and rob them?? I have never seen such a gang, only immegrant gangs.
Ah wathever... Everyone will realise this in 50 years when Sweden is a country of crime and low moral. :no:
Sweden and the other nordic countries need to go back to being bad-ass. With horns beards and 8 foot axes.
Thank you :bow:Quote:
Originally Posted by Radier
Interesting numbers in that research.
Alright I admit that majority of the rapes are done by immigrants even tho it is only 0.22% of the total number of immigrants.
Would never have guessed that danes,norweigan and finns are the second largest group that commit crimes:dizzy2: .
And that swedes are the ones commiting most of the violent crimes.
That only 12.4% of all immigrants commit crime was a surprise tho.
I expected it to be higher considering nazis love to go out and claim that over 50% commit crimes.
Of course this means that 87.6% of lawbiding people are being lumped together with these messly 12.4% which is sad to see :no: .
The number of rapes committed by Muslim immigrants in West European nations is so extremely high that it is difficult to view these rapes as merely random acts of individuals.
The situation in Denmark is the same.A view from a Danish cultural psychologist. In DanishQuote:
Oslo rape statistics shock
Two out of three charged with rape in Norway's capital are immigrants with a non-western background according to a police study. The number of rape cases is also rising steadily.The study is the first where the crime statistics have been analyzed according to ethnic origin. Rape charges in the capital are spiraling upwards, 40 percent higher from 1999 to 2000 and up 13 percent so far this year. Police Inspector Gunnar Larsen of Oslo's Vice, Robbery and Violent crime division says the statistics are surprising - the rising number of rape cases and the link to ethnic background are both clear trends. But Larsen does not want to speculate on the reasons behind the worrying developments. While 65 percent of those charged with rape are classed as coming from a non-western background, this segment makes up only 14.3 percent of Oslo's population. Norwegian women were the victims in 80 percent of the cases
Quote:
Er det etnisk krig, frustreret seksualitet eller blot et sammenfald af omstændigheder?
You know strike, we were actually at our most badass during the Early Modern pike-and-shot period. Sweden owned half Northern Europe back then and whupped all comers on the field.
Gå på! :charge:
Yeah, I know the rough framework of the theory I posted leaves much to be desired, but come on now - it's an awfully complicated one which takes acclaimed professors entire books to thoroughly formulate and explain. Nevermind now the national differences... I've my limitations, and mainly sought to present the basic frame of analytical thinking.
Here's a few rhetorical questions concerning the postulated high crime rate of the immigrants.
First, how well is that related to equivalent rates of natives in similar social circumstances ? Obviously the disenfranchised and alienated are more likely to commit crimes regardless of ethnic background or whatever - how does the degree of such negative factors among the immigrants compare to the natives ? Or, bluntly, how does their proportional crime rate relate to that of the natives in similar circumstances ?
Second, have you considered the disparity between "willingness to report crime" and "actual rate of crime" ? For example, Finnish authorities flatly estimate they never hear about at least three-quarter of the rapes committed in the country, partly as in the majority of the cases the offender is at least peripherally known to the victim. It is sometimes pessimistically observed that the home is one of the most singularly dangerous environments in Finland, particularly to women - quite possibly the better part of serious violence happens "within four walls." "Street rapes" are by far the minority of sexual assaults, but are disproportionately represented among those that reach the consciousness of the authorities and the public; particularly if committed by obvious "foreigners," which duly get lambasted in the headlines of the ever-opportunistic yellow press.
That 12.4 % (I thought this was a high number because people use to say only a small percentage of them are criminals) of immegrants are suspected for crime means over 100 000 persons. :no: It is horrible that hardworking honest immegrants shall be lumped together with these, I agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by TB666
I think a solution is to send every criminal immegrant out. Sure, it may not be fair in all cases, but the status of being an immegrant would be raised high above what the situation is now.
People would have possitive and not negative steriotypes of immegrants. Sadly, the only parties that actually will send the criminal ones out are SD and naziparties.
Edit: Swedes, danes, norwegians and finns do alot of crimes because we are the largest groups of people here. Quite logical.
But if you look at overrepresentation Africans are worst and Swedes, Americans and other anglo-saxon descendants behave best.
But as I said, nationality ought not count. Whereever you come from you shall be kicked out if you comit crimes.
It seems that they do this sometimes but not always.Quote:
Originally Posted by Radier
Can't remember when but there was one case that sparked a big debate about this and huge number of people did support it.
Aye, good points.Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
Of course, amidst all this talk about Europeans as victims of immigrant crime, we have forgotten the main victims: immigrants themselves. Most immigrant crime that is reported, considers an immigrant perpetrator and a white victim. But, alas, I fear that that mainly reflects how much crime amongst immigrants themselves remains hidden.
Consider this story by a young, French immigrant Muslim woman. The story from the inside.
Link
Quote:
"I was gang raped by three people I knew, and I couldn't say anything, because in my culture, your family is dishonored if you lose your virginity."
Quote:
“There was a trial in Lille where a 13-year-old girl was gang raped by 80 men. Sometimes, it’s 80, or 50 or 10. It’s absolutely terrible,” says Bellil. “In the case of Argenteuil, it was horrible. A young woman was raped in a school. Of course, everybody knew, but they're so afraid of these young men that they prefer to close their eyes. That's the price of peace in the ghettos.”
When the verdicts came down in this case, the courthouse turned into a madhouse. Eighteen teenagers were convicted of raping a 15-year-old girl over a two-month period. But what really shocked France was how the mothers of those boys reacted.
“You call this justice, seven years in prison for some oral sex,” says one mother. “It's the girl who should be behind bars.”
Quote:
But nothing prepared France for what happened to a 17-year-old French Muslim girl named Sohane Benziane. Her case really woke up the country to the nightmare that has been festering so long in these projects.
Sohane was burned alive in the basement of an apartment complex by a gang leader who had told her that he didn't want to see her on his turf. After her murder, her sister, Kahina, dedicated a memorial at the site of her killing.
And just in case there was any doubt about where loyalties lie in these projects, when the young man accused of killing Sohane returned with police to show how he had doused her with gasoline, the highrise he had controlled broke out in cries of support.
That just infuriated Samira Bellil enough to help lead a national movement against this violence. “Before, they would rape us. Now, they're burning us alive. Sohane can't speak anymore, so I'm gonna do the talking,” says Bellil.
“Ni putes ni soumises" is a provocative slogan that, roughly translated, means “We're neither whores nor doormats.” It's a movement that sprang out of the ghettos, made up of mostly immigrant women who are now fighting back against the gang rapes and violence that plague their neighborhoods.
Ouch. Yeah, the Frech ghettoes tend to be regarded as real hellholes even up here. Total worst-case "social trap" scenario by all accounts.
Wow. I thought America was bad but wow. We dont have mass gang rapes or this # of ethnic crimes. Why dont yall do something? Im mean are yall gonna sit back and take it. Where are all the vikings?
:rtwno:
strike... if you don't have any idea of what you're talking about, spare the mutual embarassement and don't, okay ?
:shame:
thats not what I meant. I mean here is my question. Has this been a festering problem? Has this started to happen recently? Are people still in denil and dont think its happening. Im just trying to get the storty brotha.:book:
That's a pretty reasonable response.Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
:dizzy2:
Given that he was confusing the Swedish and French issues, quite.
To answer the rather better formulated question, it is my impression the French ghettoes aren't exactly anything new but have developed over several decades; Louis can probably provide details. As tends to be the case with blighted "ethnic" suburbs, they've tended to go "under the radar" until things have gotten really serious.
As for Sweden, I'm under the impression the troubles are a quite recent phenomenom - last decade or so or thereabouts. Given that everyone's been going increasingly to Hell during the same period, I'm not all that surprised.