No better than them

SFTS,

Don't forget the hundreds of thousands of Jews America did NOT accept even when our immigration limits had not been met. Our great country refused aid to all of Europe until, as Panzer said, it suited us to stop expansionalism.

Panzer, I couldn't agree more. I wish they could have killed Hitler in one of the putsches and taken control. Even for people who thought the Jews inferior, the prospect of thousands of troops and resources diverted to the front lines from the camps, would have been a lot better.

Some of the funniest things I find is the Katyn massacre. When German troops invaded Russia they found the massacre of Polish officers by the Soviets. When they published photos etc., Churchill mentioned it would be a crime to notice that a "noble ally" would do such a thing! The estimate of people killed is 20,000 - no handful.

HoreTore,

Yes they saw Jews being carted off, for sure. They also saw political dessenters, and those who were against Hitler. It was just a harsh prison....of which Jews were sent to more.

Seamus,

I don't deny Germany had something to do with the war, but that doesn't make the Versailles treaty any more tolerable. It did lead to the war, as did the ideology. Expansion - land, resources etc. has always been an aim of nations in war, and was in this case too. Like I said, no nation goes to war thinking themselves inferior to their enemy!

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Originally Posted by Fenring

:bow:

Did Russia have any other interest in the region except undermining Austro-Hungary, though? Conversely for the Austro-Hungarians it was clear enough; even if Franz Ferdinand wasn't particulary important it still needed a strong response to cow any nationalist sentiments among the minorities of the empire.

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Isn't it what it's about with great powers? Undermining the influence of another and strengthening your own position. But let's not derail the thread, we may continue in the monastery if you'd like.

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Originally Posted by Alexanderofmacedon

Like I said, no nation goes to war thinking themselves inferior to their enemy!

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There's a huge difference between considering yourself superior to the enemy in terms of military power, like better trained soldier, better commanders, better army organization and so on, and considering your enemy racially inferior where you don't just deny them basic human rights but consider them sub-humans.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

The objective in war is to totally break your enemies spirit and will to fight. War is not something filled with honor, it is a dirty business fought by men with a glimmer of hope in there eye.

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Just like Al Queda, the Taliban and the Vietcong fight, then. :2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Husar

Just like Al Queda, the Taliban and the Vietcong fight, then. :2thumbsup:

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Yup. I should also mention is more about ideas than body counts. Al-Qedias idea needs good PR and a sympathy vote. The viet cong would've fought to the last man.

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Just wondering Bopa , you said your grandfather was a government clerk married to a Jew , surely under the laws enacted he must have lost his job and his marriage and been sent to prison .

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Not from what I know, I beleive that she was a Christian, Catholic at the time, though I do beleive she was born into the Jewish faith. Unfortunatley all records containing family information have gone missing since 1956.

He may have, but from all I know he used his position to get his son a job in the civil service aswell and that he held the same or similar position for the next government before joining some socialist group in the late '40's

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Originally Posted by Poor Bloody Infantry

And you are qualified to judge, are you?

You can honestly say that if you had been in their position you would have acted differently?

After 5 years of suffering and witnessing horrors which we in this age of peace and prosperity can scarcely imagine, if you were sent on a mission to take revenge against those you deemed responsible for causing all that death and destruction, you would be prepared to risk dishonour and imprisonment (and possibly death, though I'm not sure if the Allied military still executed deserters by this point) by refusing to carry out those orders? Excuse me if I'm a little sceptical.

This is what people do in wars, it is human nature. When they blame the enemy for their suffering and they have come to view the enemy as subhuman, good people will do unspeakably evil things. That is why war is so vile, and that is why the people who deliberately start wars (such as the Nazi leadership) are responsible for all the horror that unfolds as a result of their actions.

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I can only hope that I will be given the wisdom to do so and better still to be spared that decision.

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Originally Posted by Poor Bloody Infantry

That is why war is so vile, and that is why the people who deliberately start wars (such as the Nazi leadership) are responsible for all the horror that unfolds as a result of their actions.

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:bow:

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Atrocity has no excuses, no mitigating argument. Atrocity never balances or rectifies the past. Atrocity merely arms the future for more atrocity. It is self-perpetuating upon itself — a barbarous form of incest. Whoever commits atrocity also commits those future atrocities thus bred.

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(Children of Dune, by Frank Herbert)

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Originally Posted by Alexanderofmacedon

Seamus,

I don't deny Germany had something to do with the war, but that doesn't make the Versailles treaty any more tolerable. It did lead to the war, as did the ideology. Expansion - land, resources etc. has always been an aim of nations in war, and was in this case too. Like I said, no nation goes to war thinking themselves inferior to their enemy!

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"Had something to do with" is a little too "nuanced." They started it. Yes, the Versailles Treaty of 1919 was loathsome and unfair; yes, France in particular treated Germany harshly after the war and for years thereafter; yes, colonies etc. had been excised; yes, Stalin would likely have begun the war if Hitler had not (the Baltic states would have been absorbed for certain, Finland had been on the agenda for some time, and Rumania would likely have been targeted by the Sovs next); none of which changes the facts about Czechoslovakia, Poland, and numerous others.

Actually, nations do sometimes go to war under such circumstances, but I'll admit its not the normal choice. However, I wasn't referring to the sense of superiority in resources/ability but a sense of "inherent" superiority based on their cockeyed racial notions. I think the evidence is clear that these ideas influenced their choice of targets (though I acknowledge that these racist attitudes are unlikely to have been the primary motivation for launching the war).

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

"Had something to do with" is a little too "nuanced." They started it. Yes, the Versailles Treaty of 1919 was loathsome and unfair; yes, France in particular treated Germany harshly after the war and for years thereafter; yes, colonies etc. had been excised; yes, Stalin would likely have begun the war if Hitler had not (the Baltic states would have been absorbed for certain, Finland had been on the agenda for some time, and Rumania would likely have been targeted by the Sovs next); none of which changes the facts about Czechoslovakia, Poland, and numerous others.

Actually, nations do sometimes go to war under such circumstances, but I'll admit its not the normal choice. However, I wasn't referring to the sense of superiority in resources/ability but a sense of "inherent" superiority based on their cockeyed racial notions. I think the evidence is clear that these ideas influenced their choice of targets (though I acknowledge that these racist attitudes are unlikely to have been the primary motivation for launching the war).

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But by somehow comdemning the entire German populace under such circumstances is wrong. Where Hitler, no doubt, had racial superiority reasons, it was not the will of the people as a whole.

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Originally Posted by Alexanderofmacedon

But by somehow comdemning the entire German populace under such circumstances is wrong. Where Hitler, no doubt, had racial superiority reasons, it was not the will of the people as a whole.

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Agreed. Whatever others may have posted, you will note that I have consistenly attributed this attitude to the Nazi leadership. How far such an attitude permeated through the culture and the degree to which they would have pursued such racist policies absent the Nazi leadership is debatable, but I tend to believe that most Germans were not ardent Nazis.

“I wish they could have killed Hitler in one of the putsches and taken control. Even for people who thought the Jews inferior, the prospect of thousands of troops and resources diverted to the front lines from the camps, would have been a lot better.”
I am not sure of the meaning of what I read there. Do you somehow saying that, excepted the Extermination Camps and all the horror done by the Nazi you some where agree the war by Germany on her neighbours? :inquisitive:
I do agree on the fact that the Nazi hated so much the Jews that they carry on the deportation and the killing against their military needs and demand.

“It was just a harsh prison...” They saw a little bit than that. If you read some books written by survivors, you will see that the deportees when escorted to factories and others sited to work were facing aggressions and others humiliations for the populations… It is debate that we had before and I am convinced that the German in general were more aware than it is actually admitted.
Then I do not blame the ordinary citizens not to rebel, as I said, the first concentration camps were built against Germans Hitler’s opponents.
But they could have abstained to throw stones to the deportees and to denounce the one who drunk in the village fountain…

“but that doesn't make the Versailles treaty any more tolerable”: The treaty of Versailles is a copy cut of the one (treaty of Francfort – 10 of May 1871: Alsace and Lorraine are annexed by the new Germany, 5 billions in Gold have to be paid by France, with an army of occupation on the French territory until all the amount would have been paid, and the French had to pay for the maintenance of this army) impose by Bismarck.
And I didn’t notice that the treaty of Brest Litowsk was so balance for the Russians, and the idea to bring Lenin back to Russia was particularly brilliant in the result…

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Not from what I know, I beleive that she was a Christian, Catholic at the time, though I do beleive she was born into the Jewish faith.

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Slight problem there Bopa , the hungarian government changed the early version of laws on jewishness from one of adherence to a religion to one of race so if she was born Jewish or her parents or grandparents were Jewish she remained Jewish and your grandfather was being very very naughty cavorting with "subhumans" and should have been imprisoned and his son most certainly should have been barred from the civil service too as well as many other forms of employment .

BTW I do hope that when you say he held his position for the next government I do hope you don't mean he carried on under Sztojay , as while Horthy and his government were very very bad the next government were completely evil .

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Originally Posted by Brenus

“but that doesn't make the Versailles treaty any more tolerable”: The treaty of Versailles is a copy cut of the one (treaty of Francfort – 10 of May 1871: Alsace and Lorraine are annexed by the new Germany, 5 billions in Gold have to be paid by France, with an army of occupation on the French territory until all the amount would have been paid, and the French had to pay for the maintenance of this army) impose by Bismarck.
And I didn’t notice that the treaty of Brest Litowsk was so balance for the Russians, and the idea to bring Lenin back to Russia was particularly brilliant in the result…

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Very good point.

Let's hope that Chinese don't hold a grudge about the period of unequal treaties.

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Slight problem there Bopa , the hungarian government changed the early version of laws on jewishness from one of adherence to a religion to one of race so if she was born Jewish or her parents or grandparents were Jewish she remained Jewish and your grandfather was being very very naughty cavorting with "subhumans" and should have been imprisoned and his son most certainly should have been barred from the civil service too as well as many other forms of employment .

BTW I do hope that when you say he held his position for the next government I do hope you don't mean he carried on under Sztojay , as while Horthy and his government were very very bad the next government were completely evil .

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I know what the fascists did, but he still kept on working for the government and got his son a job. I know that things like this happened for a fact, I know of at least one part Jewish policeman who worked under the fascists, well at least he says he is part Jewish.

As for who he carried on after, I don't know, that could be it I suppose, I still don't think that makes him a fascist.

Let me throw something out for discussion... it's controversial, but I'm seriously not trying to get anyone wound up. It's something I heard once and it struck me as a unique perspective (not saying right or wrong... just very unique) about WWII.

The huge shock "to the system" to the modern/western world about Nazi Germany and WWII, was not that all of the atrocities were new or being committed for the first time. But because, for the first time, the pattern of conquest and ethnic subjugation and extermination which had been perpetuated by Europe upon much of the rest of the world for the previous few centuries, was, for the first time, being conducted UPON Europeans, by another European power.

Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Koga No Goshi

The huge shock "to the system" to the modern/western world about Nazi Germany and WWII, was not that all of the atrocities were new or being committed for the first time. But because, for the first time, the pattern of conquest and ethnic subjugation and extermination which had been perpetuated by Europe upon much of the rest of the world for the previous few centuries, was, for the first time, being conducted UPON Europeans, by another European power.

Thoughts?

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Partially agree. Yes, a lot of the horror at the extermination of peoples by the Nazis was because of the fact it was on Europeans and by Europeans. However, the sheer industrialization of the process was the horrific part for many. Even though the Soviet Union managed to kill many, many more people, the Holocaust is almost more disturbing because of the horrible efficiency with which it was carried out.

Never before had the world truly seen mass murder in an assembly line fashion. Yes, British rule in India led to some horrific things. Yes, the Boer War contained atrocious crimes against humanity. Yes, the Trail of Tears and the crimes against Native Americans were - and remain - shocking. Yes, the Holodomor was a disgusting act of cruelty that left millions dead. But seeing groups of people herded into gas chambers designed not for just murder, but for efficient murder? That truly is scary.

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Originally Posted by Koga No Goshi

Let me throw something out for discussion... it's controversial, but I'm seriously not trying to get anyone wound up. It's something I heard once and it struck me as a unique perspective (not saying right or wrong... just very unique) about WWII.

The huge shock "to the system" to the modern/western world about Nazi Germany and WWII, was not that all of the atrocities were new or being committed for the first time. But because, for the first time, the pattern of conquest and ethnic subjugation and extermination which had been perpetuated by Europe upon much of the rest of the world for the previous few centuries, was, for the first time, being conducted UPON Europeans, by another European power.

Thoughts?

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Eh. I blame the industrialization of the killings. WWI the Crimea the civil all threw good white men into the meat grinders. Jews wernt "white" anyway. It was more along the lines of the assembly line way it was carried out.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Eh. I blame the industrialization of the killings. WWI the Crimea the civil all threw good white men into the meat grinders. Jews wernt "white" anyway. It was more along the lines of the assembly line way it was carried out.

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Agreed but that was a technological difference between the time of WWII and the past. Would you say that the systematic killing of people in such a fashion along racial, ethnic, or religious lines, had not been going on for quite awhile in the rest of the world under the period of European colonization? Just with cruder techniques and tools?

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Originally Posted by Koga No Goshi

Agreed but that was a technological difference between the time of WWII and the past. Would you say that the systematic killing of people in such a fashion along racial, ethnic, or religious lines, had not been going on for quite awhile in the rest of the world under the period of European colonization? Just with cruder techniques and tools?

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agreed completely. No argument here.

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Originally Posted by Koga No Goshi

Agreed but that was a technological difference between the time of WWII and the past. Would you say that the systematic killing of people in such a fashion along racial, ethnic, or religious lines, had not been going on for quite awhile in the rest of the world under the period of European colonization? Just with cruder techniques and tools?

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I don't think that it was anything new and when compared top other acts of genocide strikes me at the same level and pulls the same strings. However, I extend this train of thought to every act of genocide and find no exceptionalism in any, you could say that what the Romans did to the Gauls was Europe's first taste of a genocidal scale of murder. Conquest and its historical link to mass murder are common throught Europe and every other region of the world, the Thirty Years war was particulalry devastating
for Germany and the German People, to name one conflict.

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Originally Posted by King Henry V

Hundreds of millions of people in Africa, Asia, Latin America have since the war faced almost exactly the same situation as you described: persecutions, summary executions, torture, imprisonment, labour camps. Of course they knew that their governments were tyrannies. So did the Germans. Few did anything about it. Why? Because they knew that the government response would be terrible, and this was even more the case in Nazi Germany where even any murmur of a resistance was punished not only with one's own torture and execution, but that of one's family as well. The sad fact is, is that for the majority of humanity, when push comes to shove, the safety of one's family and oneself will invariably come first.

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:2thumbsup:

I think the specificity of the Jews, Gypsies and others sub/non human by the Nazi is the very well planned operation. The death toll in the Boers concentration camps built by the British is due to the neglect of hygiene principles. But can I remind here what the level in science was at this period? Pasteur, anyone?
The camps built by Nazis were designed to kill. The huge death toll in the Gulags is due to the harsh conditions, and mistreatments and all others factors we know, but the purpose was not to kill every body.
Treblinka was. And thousands were. The length of the train, the numbers of people transported were calculated to insure that when the locomotive had done all the refuelling in sand, coal and water, and turn in the right direction, all the wagons would have been clean and the deportees dead. All the system was not done to submit the occupied populations. This was after all the German philosophers. It was done by one of the most educated and cultural nation in the world. The barbarians from inside, the inner Tatars… And no offence meant to the Tatars. To compare a Nazi to a cockroach is an insult to the cockroach.
Yes, this genocide was made possible by the technology. And that is why I think that the figures are in fact underestimated.
What is surprising and amazing is the fact that some still don’t grasp the fact that Hitler and consort killed their own people, their slaughtered the men and the families of the men who were fighting with them in 1914-1918 in the trenches… And this madness spread too easily to the rest of European mostly Christian. The French, the Dutch, all the occupied countries authorities collaborated. Same of Hitler’s allies, they all ended to do it.

Pz, by the way, there are no evidence that the US President knew about Pearl Harbour. More, even if he would, what to do? Tell the Japaneese to pull the plugg off? We are agin the same kind of ... than for the Twin Towers...:thumbsdown:

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Originally Posted by Brenus

The French, the Dutch, all the occupied countries authorities collaborated. Same of Hitler’s allies, they all ended to do it.

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Exactly, pinning this on the germans is unfair it's a crime of europeans. All the more reason to treat the war and the holocaust as seperate events.

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Originally Posted by Brenus

I am not sure of the meaning of what I read there. Do you somehow saying that, excepted the Extermination Camps and all the horror done by the Nazi you some where agree the war by Germany on her neighbours? :inquisitive:
I do agree on the fact that the Nazi hated so much the Jews that they carry on the deportation and the killing against their military needs and demand.

They saw a little bit than that. If you read some books written by survivors, you will see that the deportees when escorted to factories and others sited to work were facing aggressions and others humiliations for the populations… It is debate that we had before and I am convinced that the German in general were more aware than it is actually admitted.
Then I do not blame the ordinary citizens not to rebel, as I said, the first concentration camps were built against Germans Hitler’s opponents.
But they could have abstained to throw stones to the deportees and to denounce the one who drunk in the village fountain…

The treaty of Versailles is a copy cut of the one (treaty of Francfort – 10 of May 1871: Alsace and Lorraine are annexed by the new Germany, 5 billions in Gold have to be paid by France, with an army of occupation on the French territory until all the amount would have been paid, and the French had to pay for the maintenance of this army) impose by Bismarck.
And I didn’t notice that the treaty of Brest Litowsk was so balance for the Russians, and the idea to bring Lenin back to Russia was particularly brilliant in the result…

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My meaning behind the first phrase: If you look past the killing of innocent people (as a higher-up German political leader might have done), they might have at least realized it was draining resources that they could have otherwise put towards the war effort.

I don't think anyone who didn't live there at the time can really comdemn the populace. Granted it's horrible to throw stones at any person really, but I will not pretend to understand the psychological aspects of brainwashing on many German citizens.

I'll be honest, this whole "the war was glorious, glorious!! If only we could have set aside that whole Jewie Jew Jew Bee killing business.... ah, what a great war..." makes me very squeamish. It honestly comes off like a backdoor way to justify the holocaust to say "well let's examine the war alone, and treat the holocaust as separate." Whether that is the INTENTION or not, I could not say as I do not know any of you personally.

Even treating the holocaust itself separately, the ideology was still evil. The Totalitarian nature of German authority over conquered states and citizens, forcing political opposition to work in labor camps or the army (or sent to death camps). These things cannot be separated out from the war because the imperialist war, the indiscriminate targetting of civilians, the totalitarian crackdowns and the holocaust were all symptoms of the same disease, Nazi ideology.

Even if it could be proved that the whole Jewish holocaust aspect never happened, or was totally separate, or conducted by a totally different group of the nazi party who kept it totally secret from the major Nazi leadership (who wouldn't have approved, because of it wasting military resources, in the fantasy scenario that you Panzer and Alexander are drawing out in theoretical), the wars still would not have been justified, Nazi methods would not have been honorable, and Nazi administration would not have been vindicated. IMHO.

It sounds like a very very "go far" stretch to try to turn WWII inside out, rearrange some of the entrails, cut off the smelly head, remove the icky gall bladder, and then say "see? The Germans waged a pretty noble, honorably fought war."

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Originally Posted by Koga No Goshi

It sounds like a very very "go far" stretch to try to turn WWII inside out, rearrange some of the entrails, cut off the smelly head, remove the icky gall bladder, and then say "see? The Germans waged a pretty noble, honorably fought war."

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Even the people signing the treaty after WW1 knew that they only sealed the inevitable occurance of the second. If WW2 was about the jews, ok, but it wasn't it, it was about territory. The evilisation of the germans is to me a severe lack of understanding of what a cruel and savage place it is we live in, and that this can happen everywhere, anytime, and to everyone, once set into motion, nothing can stop it. So better understand it instead of just condemning it.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Even the people signing the treaty after WW1 knew that they only sealed the inevitable occurance of the second. If WW2 was about the jews, ok, but it wasn't it, it was about territory. The evilisation of the germans is to me a severe lack of understanding of what a cruel and savage place it is we live in, and that this can happen everywhere, anytime, and to everyone, once set into motion, nothing can stop it. So better understand it instead of just condemning it.

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You would get no argument from me that bad foreign policy today creates the wars of tomorrow. But I'm curious Fragony... do you hold the U.S. and the west responsible for its interventions in the Middle East, their histories of interference, propping up and arming dictators, aiding revolutions, covert sabotage, political subterfuge, when it comes to the state of the Middle East today, the use of terrorism, the hostility towards the west?

I've seen no consistency in this argument you or Panzer are applying. It seems to apply only in the case of Germany during WWII.

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Originally Posted by Koga No Goshi

You would get no argument from me that bad foreign policy today creates the wars of tomorrow. But I'm curious Fragony... do you hold the U.S. and the west responsible for its interventions in the Middle East, their histories of interference, propping up and arming dictators, aiding revolutions, covert sabotage, political subterfuge, when it comes to the state of the Middle East today, the use of terrorism, the hostility towards the west?

I've seen no consistency in this argument you or Panzer are applying. It seems to apply only in the case of Germany during WWII.

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Why look for consistancy in situations that are completily different, it's the idiotic notion that there is something to be learned from history when history has proven again and again that there is no such thing as historical consistancy, and that excesses such as the holocaust can happen under any circumstances, regardless of ideology or ethnicity; that is the only concistancy there has ever been, there isn't any cruelty men isn't capable of.

“Exactly, pinning this on the germans is unfair it's a crime of europeans.”
Nope.
The free European fought against Nazism. And even the occupied and collaborationists one didn’t create extermination camps. Well, except the Croats of Ante Pavlovic who even add someone on the list to slaughter, the Serbs.
All European countries had anti-Semitism, but it never went is so much violence.
The genocide is totally German (ok, and Croats) with the active complicity of the traitors in each occupied country.

I've seen no consistency in this argument you or Panzer are applying. It seems to apply only in the case of Germany during WWII.

I mentioned this earlier to panzer and got no answer but tbh it stuck in the throat even more when i saw fraggony defending the conditions germans were lead to....

I have no problems with you views in this topic... i agree to a certain extent... but they seem very inconsistent with other views expressed in topics on muslims....