No better than them

[Strike For The South]

I'm sorry, but being attacked does not give one carte blanch to carry out crimes against humanity on a massive scale. Being attacked does not impart the moral justification to drop fire bomb and nuclear weapons on the attacker once you've got them beaten. No, there's no justification for incinerating women and children, not in Auschwitz and not in Dresden. How amazingly cruel is it to annihilate two cities - housing thousands of refugees from other cities burned to the ground - just to show off?

Yes, the relativism in this thread is mind boggling.

In '91, would the allies have been justified in dropping a nuclear weapon on Baghdad? In '03, would Hussein have been justified in gassing American troops?

How your enemy behaves does not legitimize immoral actions. The allies weren't even up against the wall when they carried out their largest war crimes, they'd practically won.

The objective in war is to totally break your enemies spirit and will to fight. War is not something filled with honor, it is a dirty business fought by men with a glimmer of hope in there eye. Bullies have no right to bitch and moan when they get some of there on medicine. If my family had been living under the jackboot for years I would've taken a measure of revenge as well. I dont understand why you think we should've taken the gloves off. Frankly The American troops should've done whatever it took to subdue that scourge. Geez give me the Japanese any day now there was an enemy at least they died with a straight back.

[PanzerJaeger]

The objective in war is to totally break your enemies spirit and will to fight. War is not something filled with honor, it is a dirty business fought by men with a glimmer of hope in there eye.

The Nazis felt the same way. You can't have it both ways. Either there is a morality in war, and both sides are guilty of breaching it; or anything goes, and no one can complain.

[Strike For The South]

The Nazis felt the same way. You can't have it both ways. Either there is a morality in war, and both sides are guilty of breaching it; or anything goes, and no one can complain.

America did what it had to do to eliminate a great evil. Are some of the actions regrettable now in 20/20 hindsight? Yes but Im not going to sit hear and shed a tear for coming to the aid of oppressed peoples trapped in some demagogues sick game nor what kind of revenge those people exacted from the rulers when the tables were turned.

[Incongruous]

America did what it had to do to eliminate a great evil. Are some of the actions regrettable now in 20/20 hindsight? Yes but Im not going to sit hear and shed a tear for coming to the aid of oppressed peoples trapped in some demagogues sick game nor what kind of revenge those people exacted from the rulers when the tables were turned.

Off topic.

So by that reasoning, If the Palestinians manage to defeat the Israelis, all the crimes against humanity which would be commited would be ok by you?

[PanzerJaeger]

America did what it had to do to eliminate a great evil.

Pure History Channel revisionism, bud. Churchill fought to preserve the British Empire and FDR fought to dismantle it and and build an American one. WW2 was a power play, pure and simple. Had Hitler not started it in '39, Stalin would have steamrolled Europe soon after. The three competing ideologies and the rivalries within them did not fight for good or evil, but for dominance.

[Strike For The South]

Apples to Oranges Bopa. The Palestinians need good PR America in 41 didnt

Pure History Channel revisionism, bud. Churchill fought to preserve the British Empire and FDR fought to dismantle it and and build an American one. WW2 was a power play, pure and simple. Had Hitler not started it in '39, Stalin would have steamrolled Europe soon after.

Pat Buhcannon is that you? While power politics are always at play do not downplay Germanys role in this simply because its your side. The NAZIs spouted bull and seeked to create an empire and America put them back in there place, Were we entirely altruistic no but we were damn better than the alternative. Germany could have never won the war they proved no match for American production or Soviet pig headiness. Quit living in your dream world.

[PanzerJaeger]

Pat Buhcannon is that you?

I don't follow Pat Buchannan except on the occasion that he makes the news, so you'll have to explain why you keep referencing him.

Germany could have never won the war they proved no match for American production or Soviet pig headiness.

So by aligning herself with the single most deadly ideology of the 20th century, America was actually eliminating great evil?

Seems to me FDR was far more concerned with ensuring America had a dominant place in the new world order rather than fighting evil. Why else would he allow the attack on Pearl Harbor to take place... oops, did I say that?

Quit living in your dream world.

Lets not get personal with this.

I know you love America, as do I (as my record in the Backroom will attest);and I think the nation has been a very positive force in the world. Also, I believe a great many average American soldiers did indeed have the altruistic intentions you mentioned before. However, I feel the need to speak up for the honorable Germans who fought, and if it takes acknowledging the realities surrounding the American participation in the war to force people to realize the conflict was far from black and white, then so be it. America has always benefitted from self reflection.

[Strike For The South]

I don't follow Pat Buchannan except on the occasion that he makes the news, so you'll have to explain why you keep referencing him.



So by aligning herself with the single most deadly ideology of the 20th century, America was actually eliminating great evil?

Seems to me FDR was far more concerned with ensuring America had a dominant place in the new world order rather than fighting evil. Why else would he allow the attack on Pearl Harbor to take place... oops, did I say that?




Lets not get personal with this.

I know you love America, as do I (as my record in the Backroom will attest);and I think the nation has been a very positive force in the world. Also, I believe a great many average American soldiers did indeed have the altruistic intentions you mentioned before. However, I feel the need to speak up for the honorable Germans who fought, and if it takes acknowledging the realities surrounding the American participation in the war to force people to realize the conflict was far from black and white, then so be it. America has always benefitted from self reflection.

Fair enough . Pat Buchannan recently wrote a book. The title escpaes me its to early and I have class

[Koga No Goshi]

Pure History Channel revisionism, bud. Churchill fought to preserve the British Empire and FDR fought to dismantle it and and build an American one. WW2 was a power play, pure and simple. Had Hitler not started it in '39, Stalin would have steamrolled Europe soon after. The three competing ideologies and the rivalries within them did not fight for good or evil, but for dominance.

None of this changes the fact that the Nazi ideology was evil and that the graveyards of the world would be much larger if they had won, and the genepool much less diverse.

[PanzerJaeger]

None of this changes the fact that the Nazi ideology was evil and that the graveyards of the world would be much larger if they had won, and the genepool much less diverse.

Whoa, slow down there. In my "dream world", Hitler would have died from whatever disease was ailing him far earlier in the war. Neither Himmler nor Goebbels would have had the ability to control the military like their boss did, and a comparitively more moderate military coup would have taken place. The holocaust would have never happened. Germany would have settled with the Western Allies, denounced Japan, and joined forces against the far more dangerous communists. After the war, Germany would continue to moderate and act as the dominant power in Europe and counter balance to America.

Of course none of that happened. So do I wish that the Germans had won the war under the leadership of Hitler and his henchman and continued the Holocaust? Absolutely not.

[Koga No Goshi]

It is interesting though (freaky, I'm conspiratorially speaking to Panzer), isn't it, how the concept came from the reservation system and how the U.S. dealt with its "undesirable internal ethnic group", and the Nazi admiration for systems begun right here in the U.S., ey? Thankfully, the whole ordeal had the effect of, once and for all, denouncing biological racism as an acceptable thing amongst civilized nations. Not that it was the end of biological racism, of course, but it was a crushing blow to its credibility among rational minds.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

I wish to verify this part, I am not pointing the finger at anyone's Grandfather who fought in the infantry , air force or navy. I am pointing at people in charge. The Big Three & Co.

I am.

[PBI]

I am.

And you are qualified to judge, are you?

You can honestly say that if you had been in their position you would have acted differently?

After 5 years of suffering and witnessing horrors which we in this age of peace and prosperity can scarcely imagine, if you were sent on a mission to take revenge against those you deemed responsible for causing all that death and destruction, you would be prepared to risk dishonour and imprisonment (and possibly death, though I'm not sure if the Allied military still executed deserters by this point) by refusing to carry out those orders? Excuse me if I'm a little sceptical.

This is what people do in wars, it is human nature. When they blame the enemy for their suffering and they have come to view the enemy as subhuman, good people will do unspeakably evil things. That is why war is so vile, and that is why the people who deliberately start wars (such as the Nazi leadership) are responsible for all the horror that unfolds as a result of their actions.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

And you are qualified to judge, are you?

You can honestly say that if you had been in their position you would have acted differently?

After 5 years of suffering and witnessing horrors which we in this age of peace and prosperity can scarcely imagine, if you were sent on a mission to take revenge against those you deemed responsible for causing all that death and destruction, you would be prepared to risk dishonour and imprisonment (and possibly death, though I'm not sure if the Allied military still executed deserters by this point) by refusing to carry out those orders? Excuse me if I'm a little sceptical.

This is what people do in wars, it is human nature. When they blame the enemy for their suffering and they have come to view the enemy as subhuman, good people will do unspeakably evil things. That is why war is so vile, and that is why the people who deliberately start wars (such as the Nazi leadership) are responsible for all the horror that unfolds as a result of their actions.

I can only hope that I will be given the wisdom to do so and better still to be spared that decision.

[Kralizec]

That is why war is so vile, and that is why the people who deliberately start wars (such as the Nazi leadership) are responsible for all the horror that unfolds as a result of their actions.

Atrocity has no excuses, no mitigating argument. Atrocity never balances or rectifies the past. Atrocity merely arms the future for more atrocity. It is self-perpetuating upon itself — a barbarous form of incest. Whoever commits atrocity also commits those future atrocities thus bred.

(Children of Dune, by Frank Herbert)

[Husar]

The objective in war is to totally break your enemies spirit and will to fight. War is not something filled with honor, it is a dirty business fought by men with a glimmer of hope in there eye.

Just like Al Queda, the Taliban and the Vietcong fight, then.

[Strike For The South]

Just like Al Queda, the Taliban and the Vietcong fight, then.

Yup. I should also mention is more about ideas than body counts. Al-Qedias idea needs good PR and a sympathy vote. The viet cong would've fought to the last man.