Switzerland About To Vote On Minaret Ban

I think I understand where you are coming from STFS but I think you need to understand where the swiss are coming from. You fellas haven't really been in your country that long and it wasn't really "yours" to begin with, so you have less of a problem with others coming in and parking their culture next to yours, the swiss however have been there quite a while, and they would like to keep the place looking very swiss, thank you very much.

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Originally Posted by miotas

I think I understand where you are coming from STFS but I think you need to understand where the swiss are coming from. You fellas haven't really been in your country that long and it wasn't really "yours" to begin with, so you have less of a problem with others coming in and parking their culture next to yours, the swiss however have been there quite a while, and they would like to keep the place looking very swiss, thank you very much.

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My families been here since 1620 (yes I can trace mah boys back to Mass bay and Virginia, eat your heart out). We've left out mark so to speak.

I understand wanting to protect culture but that minaret disrupts nothing at all. I would kill for that kind of assimalation in some parts of America.

Muslims make up 4% of the swiss pop, have 20 mosuqes, and only 4 minarets. Those numbers are barley a blip and this only shows aggression towards a very small minorty.

And the posters are what really do it for me, Those are just racist period. I would have been willing to give them the benifit of the doubt but those are hate mongering.

Just for the record, I have never met a Swiss in person who isn't grumpy. And I go there every year, and I have done since I was 11.

That's just because it's so cold there.

Possibly.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

The fact you choose the least conterversial and still have to preface it is rather telling.

There are 4 minarets in the entire country, this only serves to embolden radicals.

I must say I truly am disgusted in the lengths allot of you are willing to go to make this blantantly racist campaign ok in your heads.

You lot are better than this.

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Not really. The point is that Islam is not a race, it is possible to be dead set against it for philosophical reasons without being prejudiced due to race at all. You need to seperate the two, and understand that the Swiss can do the same. Just because this was pushed by racists doesn't mean it's automatically a bad idea. Even a broken clock is right twice a day; and the Swiss should understand that better than most.

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Originally Posted by Viking

Racism is not unknown between 'whites'.

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I know, I'm part Swedish, so I've had abuse both for not being a "proper" Scandanavian, and from Norwegians for being too Swedish. I've had abuse from Welsh and Scots for being English.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

My families been here since 1620 (yes I can trace mah boys back to Mass bay and Virginia, eat your heart out). We've left out mark so to speak.

I understand wanting to protect culture but that minaret disrupts nothing at all. I would kill for that kind of assimalation in some parts of America.

Muslims make up 4% of the swiss pop, have 20 mosuqes, and only 4 minarets. Those numbers are barley a blip and this only shows aggression towards a very small minorty.

And the posters are what really do it for me, Those are just racist period. I would have been willing to give them the benifit of the doubt but those are hate mongering.

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*Shrug" Tord of Byr built the birst Church in his village in Southern Sweden in 992 AD. Most of the white Americans I have come across still at least partly identify themselves by their European heritage, but few of them have any actual links to that heritage.

In contrast, I know my ancestors, I have seen the things they built, I have walked their land and I see their names etched in the stones of the Churches in my homeland.

Ok, I need to go back to Hampshire now.

Anyway, Switzerland is a very small country, 20 mosques will mean more to them than you, and a minaret is intrusive because it alters that all-important thing; the skyline.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

Even a broken clock is right twice a day; and the Swiss should understand that better than most.

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Are you, sir, somehow implying that Swiss timepieces break? :clock:

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

Not really. The point is that Islam is not a race, it is possible to be dead set against it for philosophical reasons without being prejudiced due to race at all. You need to seperate the two, and understand that the Swiss can do the same. Just because this was pushed by racists doesn't mean it's automatically a bad idea. Even a broken clock is right twice a day; and the Swiss should understand that better than most.

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Islam is not a race, but most muslims are of a brown shade and to use that defense is naive at best. Once again those posters say more than the Swiss ever could. If someone had used those posters to promote the cure for cancer I would've voted no simply because I know the bill writers intent.

The Swiss are hanging there fellow countrymen out to dry because they are scared. In a part of the world where we pride ourselves on being accepting and respecting others choices, this is a black stain.

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*Shrug" Tord of Byr built the birst Church in his village in Southern Sweden in 992 AD. Most of the white Americans I have come across still at least partly identify themselves by their European heritage, but few of them have any actual links to that heritage.

In contrast, I know my ancestors, I have seen the things they built, I have walked their land and I see their names etched in the stones of the Churches in my homeland.

Ok, I need to go back to Hampshire now.

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Well I don't, so I guess that's a swing and a miss. Not to mention once you get past the east coast the hyphanated Americanism drops off, I suspect you were spending time with BosWash pretty boys spending Daddys money.

Well good for you, so that makes it right to deny these people there little peice? For helping your dying demographics and making your welfare state possible they don't get a minaret?

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Anyway, Switzerland is a very small country, 20 mosques will mean more to them than you, and a minaret is intrusive because it alters that all-important thing; the skyline

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.

Virginia and Switzerland have the same population. There are 37 mosques in Virginia.

https://img195.imageshack.us/img195/...pleminaret.jpg

Cleary this is an abomanation and this Swiss people should be angry.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Muslims make up 4% of the swiss pop, have 20 mosuqes, and only 4 minarets. Those numbers are barley a blip and this only shows aggression towards a very small minorty.

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No, this is not correct. Part of the problem with multiculturalism and its many taboos is that numbers are subcponsciously played down, or even deliberately falsified. Yes, a bold claim, but sadly true.

I think we can assume Switzerland has several hundred mosques, and that the Muslim population stands at about 10%-12%. (Muslim here as 'from ancestors of predominantly Islamic countries')

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

https://img195.imageshack.us/img195/...pleminaret.jpg

Cleary this is an abomanation and this Swiss people should be angry.

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Not everything that's quaint is 'of the same style'. The minaret clashes with its surroundings like an iglo in Tanzania.

Prove it to me Louis. Prove to me the numbers are that underreported.

It needs a Mahogany Finish instead of the dreadful faux gold, and Cherry Wood Slats on the Spire instead of the Plastic Royal Blue. It looks like a 70's Pimp standing around with a Group of Amish.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Prove it to me Louis. Prove to me the numbers are that underreported.

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There is a huge difference between what's registered as a mosque and what as an Islamic cultural association.

Here is a list of several hundred of Islamic cultural institutions and mosques in Switzerland. http://www.islam.ch/typo3/index.php?...pdirectory_pi1

Only some twenty are registered as mosques indeed.

However, if one clicks the links to the individual institutions, one will find the meaning of Mohammed's teaching that 'the enitre world is a prayer room'. Hundreds of these cultural institutions double as 'mosques'. But do not show up in the statistics.

For example, on the list in the link above, you'll find the Albanisch-Islamische Gemeinschaft «Hëna e re». Not registered as a mosque, but as a local Albanian-Islamic association. Click on the link to their site, and they are celebrating the opening of their new mosque:
http://www.el-hikmeh.net/de/feierlic...r_moschee.html

An 'Islamic cultural foundation' in Geneve:
http://www.mosque.ch/index.php/en_US/home


Don't take my word for it, take it from the very Islamic Hamit Duran, chairman of the Aargau association of Muslims (who also invites you to the open day to the ten mosques in Aargua alone): In der Schweiz werden schätzungsweise 250 Räumlichkeiten als Moscheen genutzt,
'In Switzerland an estimated 250 dwellings(?) are used as Mosques'.

That is already an old estimate.


Me, I'd put the number of current mosques at roughly 400. Or, twenty times more than what is officially reported. Note - reported by the Swiss government. The Muslims themselves are quite open about there mosques. (In fact, reading their pages, I am overwhelmed by their openess, their pride in Switzerland and their hospitality. Want to see a mosque? Ring the doorbell. Tea is waiting for you)
I say a schoolboy with an internet and two free days could give you a very good number of the amount of mosques in Switzerland. I even quickly found two cultural associations that were so proud of their 'non-existing' mosques they translated their pages from French and German into English, for the entire world to see and know about but for the Swiss government statistics.


Why is the number of mosques played down, underreported, lied about? Because of what Fragony says.


Don't make me drag up the total number of Muslims in Switzerland. That will take me another half an hour.

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Look at me with my numbers

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Hmmmmmmmm. Thats some intresting stuff and those numbers do make me think and it makes me understand where some of yall are coming from.

But it doesn't change the posters, that's whats really sticking in my craw here. Not so much the ban as the racsim and xenophobia the seem to make up the backbone of it.

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I say a schoolboy with an internet and two free days could give you a very good number of the amount of mosques in Switzerland.

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My weekend is full good sir. There is championship football on and I need to start bagging chicks so Kadgar will take me seriously ~;)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I keed I keed

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

There is championship football on and I need to start bagging chicks so Kadgar will take me seriously ~;)

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Well keep us up to date with the scores.

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Well keep us up to date with the scores.

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Good sir, You're on point tonight

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

But it doesn't change the posters, that's whats really sticking in my craw here. Not so much the ban as the racsim and xenophobia the seem to make up the backbone of it.

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The posters aren't relevant to the issue. Just because some of the people opposing minarets are massively racist doesn't mean even a small minority of the rest of the Swiss are.

I agree with Loius, though I would be surprised if the population percentage is as high as he suspects.

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

No, this is not correct. Part of the problem with multiculturalism and its many taboos is that numbers are subcponsciously played down, or even deliberately falsified. Yes, a bold claim, but sadly true.

I think we can assume Switzerland has several hundred mosques, and that the Muslim population stands at about 10%-12%. (Muslim here as 'from ancestors of predominantly Islamic countries')

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You sure you stare at the right cause of the downplaying, as you put it?

Or to put it differently, how many churches exist in Saudi-Arabia?

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Originally Posted by Ironside

You sure you stare at the right cause of the downplaying, as you put it?

Or to put it differently, how many churches exist in Saudi-Arabia?

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Totally different, Christianity is illegal in Saudi Arabia.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Do you two not see the bloody posters?

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This is certainly edgy, it goes a lot further than I would ever be willing to go and I do not agree with this, but I am going to give it some latitude because I don't think it is what it seems to be, people think in symbols I have yet to figure out what they really voted against, is it a minaret or should we put this in a broader perspective.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

Totally different, Christianity is illegal in Saudi Arabia.

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Public Christianity is illegal in Saudi Arabia. Gathering in your neighbour's cellar for communion is not. It's legality has probably more to do that foregin workers might not be muslims than anything else, but can Saudi Arabia be considered to be a center for multiculturalism and its many taboos?

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Originally Posted by Ironside

Public Christianity is illegal in Saudi Arabia. Gathering in your neighbour's cellar for communion is not. It's legality has probably more to do that foregin workers might not be muslims than anything else, but can Saudi Arabia be considered to be a center for multiculturalism and its many taboos?

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Not exactly true, you can't bring a Bible or other liturgical material into Saudi Arabia, or vestemants; you can't consecrate a place of worship.

Ergo, the majoriety of Christians cannot legally celebrate communion.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

Not exactly true, you can't bring a Bible or other liturgical material into Saudi Arabia, or vestemants; you can't consecrate a place of worship.

Ergo, the majoriety of Christians cannot legally celebrate communion.

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Appearently, they give American guest workers plenty of leeway. I stand corrected :shame:, but since a church doesn't need to be legal or consecrated to be a church, my original question still remains.

Official records are much lower since they're official records of public buildings, not since there's a massive systematic toning down of numbers done by multiculturalistic proponents.

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Originally Posted by Ironside

Appearently, they give American guest workers plenty of leeway. I stand corrected :shame:, but since a church doesn't need to be legal or consecrated to be a church, my original question still remains.

Official records are much lower since they're official records of public buildings, not since there's a massive systematic toning down of numbers done by multiculturalistic proponents.

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Whether or not a Church needs to be consecrated or not is a matter of denomination, the majoriety of Christians are Roman Catholic, Orthodox, or Anglican (in that order), they need Churches consecrated by a Bishop. In Suadi Arabia this is illegal.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

The posters aren't relevant to the issue. Just because some of the people opposing minarets are massively racist doesn't mean even a small minority of the rest of the Swiss are.

I agree with Loius, though I would be surprised if the population percentage is as high as he suspects.

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They are extremely releavant to the issue. They are being pushed by the same party whom came up with the legislation. They are all over Switzerland.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

This is certainly edgy, it goes a lot further than I would ever be willing to go and I do not agree with this, but I am going to give it some latitude because I don't think it is what it seems to be, people think in symbols I have yet to figure out what they really voted against, is it a minaret or should we put this in a broader perspective.

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Is edgy dutch for racist?

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

They are extremely releavant to the issue. They are being pushed by the same party whom came up with the legislation. They are all over Switzerland.

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So because racists are in favour of the message, it must be racist?

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

So because racists are in favour of the message, it must be racist?

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No, but since no one seems to be bothered by why they brought the ban up in the first place it leads me to question the Swiss motives.

It's great that they can say it's a very small group bringing this up and they don't represent the Swiss at large but then turnaround and vote for this.

If the Swiss had sane immagration laws or had more children this wouldn't be an issue. But the Swiss didn't so you need to make room for these people whom the Swiss needed to bring in to sustain there way of life.

That's what I will never understand about Europe, you need brown people to sustain you and now complain when they bring a very small part of there culture with them. The nerve of those bastards.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

That's what I will never understand about some Europeans, you need brown people to sustain you and now complain when they bring a very small part of there culture with them. The nerve of those bastards.

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Fix'd. I think the referendum was a travesty as well by the way, and certainly inspired by, if not won by, racists.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Is edgy dutch for racist?

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No. Presumably he meant ‘randgeval’ which is more accurately rendered as ‘borderline’.

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Originally Posted by Quid

I voted for the ban. Some of you are much closer to the point. Most people (I know) have voted likewise not because they associate themselves with the right-wing party (or any party at all, for that matter) but because, personally, we think that minarets do not fit into the picture of Swiss scenery, i.e., people voted in favour of the building laws rather than against Islam as such.

I strongly disagree how this was handled by the political parties. Some people have voted the right thing in my opinion but for all the wrong reasons. That makes me sad and it's actually quite tragic.

Mosques can still be built just without the minarets. There is no restriction on Moslems practicing their religion bar building minarets. The reason church towers are allowed to be built is simply that they have always been there and very often were the first buildings put up in any given place. This is not to say that such towers are allowed to be built anywhere at any given time. They also have to undergo the strict building laws of the country. That is how the law of the land stands. If people want to change that, we can have another initiative and vote on it at a later date...

I do not believe that a country has to bend over backwards to traditions and practices of other countries' people who have immigrated. I think, quite the opposite is the case. Switzerland's population consists of roughly 22% 'non-Swiss'. They are intergrated much better than in many other countries and people in general are very liberal towards 'foreigners'. We may not be the friendliest people, the funniest people, or indeed the most cheerful but we do have a history of letting others live with us in relative peace and harmony.

Quid

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Sorry, just had to highlight to make people have a laugh :)

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Originally Posted by Prussian Iron

This is a disgusting breach of Human Rights and Freedom of Religion.

It has nothing to do with the Minarets themselves. It is clear that the Swiss people (maybe not all, obviously) do not want to deal with the Muslim Immigrants, and so ban Minarets in an attempt to drive them away. If it is truly only a blending-in thing, than they should ban church towers and synagogue towers as well. equal for all.

I do have a Republican (don't know if that's far-right or far-left?), my mother, who gave her "insight" on this:

She said that it is because of forced marriages by Muslims in Switzerland, and asserts that Minarets are "A symbol of oppression to Muslim Women." This is not true, and Burkas are infinitely more of a symbol of this. She also cited the ban of Swastikas in Germany, comparing the 2. When rebuttled with "The Nazi's killed 6 million innocent people, and all members of the Nazi party fully supported and hated Jews." she came back with "Don't be so close minded.". Obviously she lost the argument, because as we all know, Muslims don't just go around rounding up people and killing them. Some extremist groups kill innocent civilians, but terrorists exist in all nations, languages, cultures and religions.


So there you have the basic view of why most of the peopole voted for it: Dislike of Islam. If only Synagogue towers were banned in America, would it just be okay? No. Not at all. Same should go with Mosques.

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I just had quite a laugh... Owned by your own mother...

Do you seriosly believe this to be true?