Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai

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Originally Posted by Walle

It looks fine to me. Anyway, I AGREE with Leumenes' proposals, but what do you mean by "free kingdom", practically speaking? Could you give me examples?

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Ptolemaioi, Makedonia, Epeiros, Getai, Arche Seleukeia, Pontos, etc...

~Jirisys ()

Ok, and what faction isn't a free kingdom and why?

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Originally Posted by Walle

Ok, and what faction isn't a free kingdom and why?

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Eleutheroi, because their name means free in greek :laugh4:

(Actually because you are already at war with them (except if your are the Casse))

~Jirisys ()

Ooooooh of course :idea2: But isn't it kind of inevitable that we fight factions other than the Eleutheroi?

Yes, but we must build up our infrastructure before, so we don't fight with levies and without funds.

~Jirisys ()

I completely agree. I just thought that you meant that we should never fight other factions.

Glaucos then spoke

I AGREE with Leumenes proposals, Now is the time to take control over the Aegean,

I PROPOSE for the Athenian army to be reinforced and sail for Kretai, while the Alliance army remains in place to defend against possible Makedon attacks.
I PROPOSE that we build another fleet, so we can keep the pressure on the Makedons while transporting our army back and forth safely.

I AGREE with Glaucos' first proposal. However, I PARTIALLY DISAGREE :tongue2: with the second proposal. I believe we should wait until we have a more stable economical infrastructure before we build a second fleet.

"I, as you all will be, am very pleased with the outcome of Chremonides' actions in Demetrias. He acted like a good Greek, out-thought and extinguished the arrigance of those who believe themselves the true masters of Greece. Methinks they have taken on a little too much of the Persian in their dealings with them and that, combined with their renowned drunkenness, makes them believe themselves immortal. But let us not fool ourselves, in our hour of victory. The Antigonids still pose a threat to our burgeoning Greek awakening. They have a large force in Pella, and I have little doubt that they will not wait, licking their wounds. They will be at the gates of Demetrias before too long. I PROPOSE that we garrison Demetrias, especially with slingers, but also with some good fighting men who can hold the walls. They are strong walls and an army which tries to breach them can be dealt with by a well organised force within them.

What concerns me is the report of their actions from Lesbos, attacking the enlightened Kingdom of Pergamon. We cannot, I think, allow them a foothold in Asia. We must keep them hemmed in in Pella. I PROPOSE that we send a force to Lesbos, to liberate Mytilene and from there to ensure the safety of the free state of Pergamon. The Macedonian force there seems strong, so we must not skimp in our efforts. I AGREE with Leumenes' first proposal, that a dialogue between our councils is convened, so that matters between us are understood. I would not wish that Sparte would see our move on Lesbos as deriving benefit only to Athens, for example.

I AGREE also with your second proposal, it is right that these men - some of whom have been away a good many years no - should see again their families. Given some of our early losses, we need these men with their wives....

While I AGREE in principle with your third point, Leumenes, I think we must know how to avoid this. But also, not be so fearful of it that we freeze. We might end up hemmed in and surrounded by many enemies at once. What is the state of affairs between Epiros and Macedon, are they still at war? If so, our hemming the remaining Macedonian forces into Pella will allow us the opportunity to perhaps pacify Macedon without having to destroy it, for the Epirotes whill surely sense imminent victory over them and attack them. They would then, surely, accept our proposals of peace and protection. We can then use Macedon as a buffer between ourselves and the Epirotes...at least until we are in a better position to deal with them. This has been a hard war, our people, cities and towns will need a little time to regroup before what we all know is an inevitable next war.

But, should we not liberate Pergamon for fear of Pontos? Why should we fear Pontos? They already are at war with us, they attacked our allies in Sinope, without regard for their relations with us. They are a petty Kingdom, with their own enemies. Show enough bite and strength and they will see sense in staying at peace with us.

And talking of their enemies, I note, with some concern, that Halikarnassos was under attack by the enemies of Ptolemy. I think we must keep a close eye on events there. Perhaps, at some future point, we might relieve the place, and then offer it to Ptolemy in order that its protection does not put us on the front line against that Macedonian-Persian abomination, the Arche Seleukea.

I AGREE with your proposal to increase our diplomatic and trade ties. I DISAGREE that we should use our levies to liberate Kretai. I believe that Lesbos is a more pressing concern, because of the position of Macedon there. I believe that the Spartans would be amenable to liberating the island themselves, and this may help to put them off the idea of heading Northward, toward Thermon. For the moment I believe this should be avoided. Thermon is a free city, with no aggressive intent to ourselves. They also act as a buffer between us and the overt aggression of the Epirotes. We should keep an eye on events there, and as and when they are weakened by that Epirote aggression, then we should be ready to liberate it - but not before. We must persuade the Spartan council of the wisdom of that, Leumenes.

May I also say that I am glad that my, somewhat rushed and immoderate, proposal to utilize mercenaries was ignored. It was made with the best intentions, but in ignorance. I did not know that we had the time to re-inforce our armies by more regular means; I believed the situation was more dire than actually it was. But, this shows the strength of the principles of our councils, of the Greek way."

"Glaucos, I must DISAGREE with the proposal to liberate Kretai with an army levied in Athens, for the reasons I have already give. And, like Kairos, while believe strengthening our naval power must be an aim of Athens, we are not yet in a position, financially, to do so."

Yet, if we are to attack Mytilene, we have another front to deal with. Be it makedon, pontos or the Arche Seleukia. Kretai on the other hand, is isolated. We can take control of the island and hold onto it with a minimal garrison. This will strenghten our economy, enabling more decisive actions on other fronts. Mytilene on the other hand, will be more trouble than profit for now. If we want to take on Makedon, our objective is Pella, not one of their outlying territories.

While I understand your point, I believe that if we allow Macedon free reign in Asia then our efforts in Hellas against them will be for naught. There is much danger from allowing them a foothold there. From there they can spread North, taking the free cities between Pella and Pergamon. We must neutralise Macedon while we can, for if we do not we may end up facing two strong enemies in Hellas itself. I would prefer that what enemies we face would be faced in Asia than in Attike.

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Originally Posted by fireblade

Glaucos then spoke

I AGREE with Leumenes proposals, Now is the time to take control over the Aegean,

I PROPOSE for the Athenian army to be reinforced and sail for Kretai, while the Alliance army remains in place to defend against possible Makedon attacks.
I PROPOSE that we build another fleet, so we can keep the pressure on the Makedons while transporting our army back and forth safely.

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I AGREE with your first proposal.

I too AGREE with Glaukos' proposal to sail for Krete. Attacking Lesbos now might lead to war with other states than Macedonia. If we are to fight at an eastern front we will need more money, something that trade with Krete will provide. The Kretan garrison is weak and we should be able to defeat them quite easily. After that we can begin thinking of conquering Lesbos.

Also, about leaving Pella for the Macedonians: Remember that the one who controls Pella also controls the mines there. Owning those mines would increase our economy significantly.

Session over.

I would like to start the Athenai Koinoin Trust.
The AKT would promote equal participation of all member states (including Rhodos).
Our color: Blue
Our symbol: the Athenia flag on the OP.

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Originally Posted by Populus Romanus

I would like to start the Athenai Koinoin Trust.
The AKT would promote equal participation of all member states (including Rhodos).
Our color: Blue
Our symbol:

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Aren't you spartan? lol

~Jirisys ()

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Originally Posted by jirisys

Aren't you spartan? lol

~Jirisys ()

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No, I'm Rhodian

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Originally Posted by Populus Romanus

No, I'm Rhodian

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Yet you formed the Spartan Nationalist Party?

~Jirisys ()

I am my divine, wise, omnisciencent, merciful, amazing master's Rhodian slave.

Fine then, although for that matter you should really join the PFUMH (my party, Party of the Free and United Men of Hellas)

~Jirisys ()

Sure, I'll join. I just hope my omnisciencent master doesn't find out. Oh, wait, in that case, he already knows! :whip:

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Originally Posted by Populus Romanus

Sure, I'll join. I just hope my omnipotent master doesn't find out. Oh, wait, in that case, he already knows! :whip:

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You don't make a lick of sense

~Jirisys ()

Well, my master cannot stop me from joining the party.

I would just like to congragulate Molina for one of the most entertaining and enjoyable AARs I have ever seen.

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Originally Posted by jirisys

"Not exactly, you propose reunification of Hellas while still supporting the athenian method. We, however, share the common name of Hellenoi, wether you be a foreigner or a citizien of a polis, yet they admire our proud ways, to say not that we are athenian or spartans, that we are all greek, yet we have different culture, we must not impose our way of thought to those freed or conquered, but they should make it, from greek basic principles to the ones they have, that's the whole essence of the polis, we must teach them of course, about the polis, and the Tyrannos, and the Hegemon, but to be remembered, as the greeks, not some dualities. We must do what is best for all of us, without also, hurting ourselves or other in the process, regardless of what we think we know, even if Demetrias wants a kingdom, yet, instructs their citiziens of philosophy, we must join each other, yet with enough separation so our polis would be unique, and be not the pillar of our hellenism, but instead, a symbol, of the ways that the Hellenos live their lives.

Yet, of course slaves need to be present. Who would run commerce in sparta, or work for us in our homes, to light our fires and cook our food, yes, they are citiziens of the polis, yet they are not free, however, they, as the most powerful Tyrannos or Basileus, is like all, greek, in some way or another."

Leumenes, very happy with that speech went back to his seat, noticing some spartans were quite happy, but others, not so much.

~Jirisys ()

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Arthouros who had been quiet during the last few discussions of the assembly, thinking of the new party Leumenes had formed lately. He decided it was best to address that, least he should be labelled an ἴδιος by his surroundings:

"Leumenes, my trusted philos and honoured member of our assembly, I have been thinking now for a while of the Συμβαλλόμενο μέρος των ελεύθερωι και ενωμένοι άνθρωποι την Ελλάδα .

Namely let me see if I have got the right picture of said party's ideals: That the Party of the free and united men of Hellas wishes to form stronger bounds with other Hêllen cities, Sparte included, and that we should stand shoulder to shoulder against any foreign τύραννος who take what is most precious to us, our freedom; but at the same time maintaining independence between the cities of Sparte and Athenai as well, not forcing the Spartans to become the best philosophers in the in the greek world and vice versa.

Or as some would put it, Athenai for the Athenians, Sparte for the Spartans, Hêllas for the Hêllenes (and philhellenes as well of course).

I am considering joining this party, but I thought it was only fair to first make sure that the opinions in question matches each other, before I go about and cripple the Arche Athenaia, and by extension our Epistates."

And with that Arthouros once again sat down, trying to remain attentive, and not fall deep into thought.

~Arthouros

Leumenes, I still don't understand. How does your party differ from ours?

Leumenes, tired, saw that he had enough time to get to the boule, so he went to the south, to Athenai first. However only a few men were still there, discussing no longer the proposal but the parties. A slave handed him Arthouros discourse. He proceeded to adress it.

"Yes my friend, however, one must proceed to the details, independence does mean to make actions for our people and our city, but not to try and affect other cities without their request. Such as imposing democracy on Pella when they request a Tyrannos to rule them, imagine if the greek world would be of one color, yet the polis would stand out, not by being the pillars of hellenism, but by being adornments on the pillars, paintings on the walls, not to be the basic principle of hellenism, but being an example of what hellenism can achieve, of course, all cities would have their own government and ideas, yet, we would be united as Hellenos. True Koinon Hellenon. Outside, in the battlefield and in the fields, there would be no Spartan or Rhodoi, no Athenian or Korinthoi, but only Hellenos, the only difference would be the anthropos themselves and their equipment, yet their souls would be united, like a Hetakonchiros, as all of them, Hellenos."

Leumenes had to rush, but waited for his reply...

~Jirisys ()

Hi everyone, I'd like to bow out of this AAR for the moment. I am in the middle of midterms and have no time to contribute to the potential i could. I apologize for this, but this AAR is great, keep up the good work!.

As Arthouros noticed Leumenes was in a hurry, he made sure to keep his reply short and straightforward:

"Leumenes, my philos, it would seem our ideals and ideas are of the same kind, therefore I pledge allegiance to the Συμβαλλόμενο μέρος των ελεύθερωι και ενωμένοι άνθρωποι την Ελλάδα."

Arthouros sat down with a small smile on his face, and an eager look in his eyes.

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Originally Posted by Vaginacles

Hi everyone, I'd like to bow out of this AAR for the moment. I am in the middle of midterms and have no time to contribute to the potential i could. I apologize for this, but this AAR is great, keep up the good work!.

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That's sad, you'll be missed. Good luck with your midterms, hope you join us again at a later date!