Fuhget it.
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Fuhget it.
Venstre and Konservative will form up with Det Radikale Vesntre? Yes, that is a pretty sensible thing.... If Det Radikale Venstre would come down from their selfloathing high horse in these matters. Remember they have said themselves that they won't support what the government has done ever. Clearly the dividing line is in this loaded issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sjakihata
Liberal issue? The true Liberals never had to contend with this, so it can't ever be a Liberal politcy since no preceedence for it exists. Btw, K is not Liberal, they are conservative and these kind of things are very much for them. Their main virtue is that of personal responseability. So when people do something wrong K want to do something about it.
Why do you think VK has won the last two elections? Economics? No way, people don't trust politicians in these matters, that they have since proven they would do it has only helped in that (the support is now more firm).
No Venstre gained the support it needed because it said it would firm up on the issue we are discussing here. Who did it? Not DF. They were just happy to see it happen, but if you have noticed they do not think enough has been done.
I do not generalize about the 'holier than thou' people. They are not that many really, but they are very visible as they are in general quite well educated. But what is wrong with them is simply that to them there is only one truth. When somebody don't behave like they want them to, they go all militaristic on them. Exibit 1: Marianne Jelved!
She does not hold back on spewing out attacks that have not real basis other than her being mad that she isn't in power like she used to. And I understand her. After so many years where your party is the deciding factor for governments, after holdingthe power to topple or keep the governement, it is understandable that she is furious. But right now there is no alternative to her in opposition (Socialdemokratiet? Not now), so of course her support is on the the rise.
You are of course allowed to look beyond our borders. In fact it is important to do so. But not when "there is something rotten in the state of Denmark". We need to clear up the mess of former governments, left-wing and right-wing alike. It can't help that we try to put out the fire without first cutting off the fuel. Later we can open it up again.
This shit started wih the massive immegration. 50 years ago you could leave your bag on the street and no one would take it.Quote:
Originally Posted by strike for the south
People was honest. And no Swede had never never heard of group rapes before the immegration.
I wouldn't say people are doing nothing. More and more are leaning to right-winged/nationalistic parties. I am one of them.
Our nationalist-party got 1.5% the last election (an increase with 400%). The election this year will take them to a new high...
and that counts as doing something? :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by Radier
politics honestly solves very little, especially if the problem has already developed so much...
What do you want me to do? :sweatdrop: Become a new 'Laseman' (he shot alot of foreigners in Stockholm). The only thing you can do is to vote and defend your near and dear. :2thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Scurvy
Louis where are you read or hear that. I am leaving near Lille and never heard about this. I aminterresting to know your sources.
here was a trial in Lille where a 13-year-old girl was gang raped by 80 men. Sometimes, it’s 80, or 50 or 10. It’s absolutely terrible,” says Bellil. “In the case of Argenteuil, it was horrible. A young woman was raped in a school. Of course, everybody knew, but they're so afraid of these young men that they prefer to close their eyes. That's the price of peace in the ghettos.”
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radier
well answered :2thumbsup:
I provided a link with my post, I quoted from an article about Samira Bellil.Quote:
Originally Posted by william the bastard
She wrote the great book 'Dans l'enfer des tournantes'. Unfortunately, this brave woman died last year. Link.
Here is a French link on that gang rape in particular.
Try these newspaper articles:Quote:
Viol collectif de Roubaix - Violée 86 fois à 13 ans - Janvier 2002
Au printemps 2001, une pré-adolescente alors agée de douze ans devient la cible des agressions sexuelles d’une bande de jeunes. Elle a le profil type de la victime des tournantes: Elle est issue d’un milieu modeste, particulièrement vulnérable et habite dans un quartier immigré de la communauté urbaine de Lille.
23 janvier 2002 - La voix du Nord - "Viol à répétition sur une adolescente de 13 ans"
24 janvier 2002 – Le Figaro – "Une collégienne de 13 ans martyrisée par une bande" par Jean Valbay
16 février 2002 - Le Monde - Neuf mineurs mis en examen pour viols sur une collégienne de 13 ans.
Oh, and did I already mention that girl that was gang-raped in broad daylight by seven arab men in the train in Lille?
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
So...why don't ya' all just arrest those rapist and throw away the keys ?
Hell is full of people who stood by and did nothing when others were hurt, or so some religious people dare claim, it seems France is too.
Seriously people, we're to blame as much as the immigrants (as a whole) for what is happening. I'll repeat myself, a tough approach towards crime regardless of racial of religious bias is what's needed in Europe. No more 'he had a bad childhood' BS, you do the crime, you do the time. And while we're at it, let's increase the time. You get three years for raping over a dozen children here, if you're unlucky. How do we expect to keep the freaks in check with laughable punishments like that ?
SHUT UP YOU AMERICAN THIS IS WHY YOURE SOCITEY IS BACKWARDS WE EUROPEANS ARE SO MUCH MORE INTELLGNT. JAIL TIME PFFT THAT JUST SHOWS HOW STUPID AMERICANS ACTULLY ARE! IM SO GLAD I LIVE IN EUROPE /has sezuireQuote:
Originally Posted by doc_bean
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
EDIT: didnt read the spoiler :P
Yeah, punish them...harshly. :yes:
Countries with this problem need a stronger police presence, need to catch these criminals, and punish them. I think that was my first post in this thread...:idea2:
Whoa. Most people can't plan a gang bang that big..Quote:
Originally Posted by william the bastard
Heh :laugh4: . Yes some people over here are stupid.Quote:
Originally Posted by strike for the south
If you say you shall put the criminals in jail for a long time, people respond "Look at USA! They got long jailtimes but alot more criminals than us!!11".
I bet you would be very surprised if you came here and spoke to the avarage anti-american.
Hell I have even heard people blaming US for the tsunamiwaves. It was something about you took oil and creating holes under the soil surface...
The worst part is that they where serious.
its very easy to have a country to blame everything on :idea2:
People like easy, stupid explanations and scapegoats here too, I'm afraid.
Harsh penalties, incidentally, aren't worth a jack by themselves as a crime preventive. The US is actually a pretty brilliant concrete example. What's needed is law enforcement sufficiently effective to ansure large enough part of offenders are caught and duly prosecuted to begin with; that's a way more effective deterrent. It's apparently generally thought to be a fairly relaible sign of a fundamentally dysfunctional law enforcement system if relatively few offenders are caught, but those that are receive very severe punishements.
Plus "harsher sentences" is a populist knee-jerk reaction that crops up on almost regular basis everywhere. The authorities generally ignore it, as "hanging men for stealing caps" (à la early 1800s British court practice...) is a kinda sucky standard and the figurative logical end result of heeding that demand.
'Course, it also helps rather a lot if the social conditions make crime undesirable in the first place.
harsh measures do work, maybe not as a deterrent, but chop the hand of a thief and he won't steal again, chop the cock off a rapist and he won't rape again, execute a murderer and he won't murder again.
Just saying, the U.S.'s harsh punishments really aren't all that harsh compared to those mentioned above. Maybe they could be harsher?
:laugh4:
Well, the Sharia *is* literally Medieval legislation...
Doesn't men's sex drive (and for that matter ability) die if you just chop off their nuts though ? I'm pretty sure that's how it was done with most eunuchs in history.
choppy choppy is the way to be.:2thumbsup:
Now, since Sveden (I love spelling it that way :2thumbsup:) has a Christian background, sharia would be quite misplaced there. Better to go with Mosaic law.
:rolleyes:
Lets be serious here...
Getting tough on crime does work, believe it or not...
Of course, this needs to be combined with a stronger police presence and also, attempts to root out the causes of crime.
As for the third, poverty has been mentioned, but I am also going to throw in idleness in the mix. My locale is the perfect example of that. I live in quite an affulent suburb in Oakland County, the third wealthiest in the US. Yet, amazingly, we have crime too. Aside from freakish incidents on blue moons (a woman who happened to be my former 4th grade teacher hacked her husband up: http://www.theoaklandpress.com/stori...41201016.shtml) very little goes on here. But the small crimes: vandalism, jaywalking, fights, and petty theft, are all committed by kids who come from upper middle class families, but have nothing to do except for set up "gangs" (quite funny, because of how soft they are).
It seems that these immigrant rapists have nothing better to do than get into gangs to feel hard@$$ and pick on women. They are unemployed, but it seems like they don't want to work. A far cry from their hardworking parents...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
I mentioned the need for 'better' law enforcement before the need for harsher punishments, I believe.
Pedophiles get months here, not years, if you have a sentence that is less than three months you don't have to go to jail at all (for some reason no one can really comprehend, other than that we don't have enough room in our jails and that the government doesn't want to invest in new ones). Shoplifters generally aren't prosecuted, murder MIGHT get you three years...Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
It's not a populist reaction I'm having here. We don't discourage crime enough. I knew a guy going through an ugly divorce that was advised by a bunch of his friends to just kill his wife. He might have to go to jail for a few years (although, temp insanity...) but he would have been better off. There is something wrong with society if murder becomes a viable option of solving your problems, even if you get caught.
I'll be taking that with a spoonful of salt, but assuming you're not exaggerating (and I must say I've poor experiences of people's judgement in these matters in general) I must admit that seems a bit bugged.
Could also be an attitude problem though. Aversion to murder shouldn't be dependent upon the sentence it brings but a moral impulse, shouldn't it ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
I swear I just googled 'pedophile sentence' (in dutch) and looked for pages in Belgium: the first article I found was this (in Dutch) Typical... in short: a pedophile is sueing for damages because one of his victims wrote a book mentioning him and he lost his job. The interesting part of the article (translated and condesend) : 144 victims were identiofied but there was only enough evidence to prosecute him for 24 cases. He didn't get a sentence in his first trial (don't know the legal term in English), in appeal he got 6 months non-effective.
:help:
EDIT: if you're looking for articles to prove me wrong, please keep in mind that most criminals get released after having served 1/3 of their actual sentence, so if someone can get a maximum of 7 years (like an author of childrens novels who came into the news last year, accused of raping 25 little boys) it really means he's going to get 2.5. Minus what he did pre-trial (I even think this counts double, I'm not sure though)
EDIT2: he got six years, and it's 2/3 of the sentence for second time offenders, sinc ehe was already sentenced for similar facts in the seventies he might get four whole years...
Of course, but doesn't it work both ways ? If crime isn't punished, doesn't it become (morally) acceptable ? The severity of a sentence surely is a measure of how 'bad' society thinks the crime is, at least in the mind of the average person. Aren't weak sentences saying 'It is understandable' ? And isn't making things like murder understandable a fundamental first step towards making them acceptable ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
Don't get me wrong, I'm not for shooting every common criminal, I'm just asking for punishment in relation to the crime. A victims life is often ruined (with pedophilia or rape, definitely ruined with murder.. ), is it fair that criminal only gets a few months ? A pedophile can rape hundreds of kids, during many many years, yet he is not even taken out of common society ? Where is the logic in that ? How is this helping society, how is this protecting the people from dangerous, immoral individuals ?
By what I know of it the relationship is a bit more complex, but to a degree you are correct; if the general view is that crimes aren't punished (ie. the authorities aren't doing their job properly) the respect to laws tends to go down which tends to lead to more crime tends to lead to even less regard for the rules and so on, and when people feel they cannot anymore trust on the deterrent effect of wrongdoing being punished they will become increasingly hesitant to trust other people in general. And when people don't trust each other anymore the society stops working well in many other ways.
So, certainly, that's a problem. It's a problem if people widely believe the laws don't do their job or aren't properly enforced; it's worse still if that's the truth (although in these matters the perception of reality has by far more influence than the fact of it)...
Nah it has always been there, but it is becomming such a big issue that even the most radical carrotmuncher can no longer pretend it isn't happening. If you dared question the multicultists they destroyed you, bye bye job/carreer/legs. A good example is Janmaat, a right-wing politician that has been dragged to courts for saying things that are pretty common to say nowadays. An assasination-attempt (his wife lost both her legs) wasn't even investigated by the police. Desperate denial with force.Quote:
Originally Posted by strike for the south
A lot of the stuff Janmaat said was downright racist, Fragony. Pim Fortuyn explicitly said he didn't want to be associated with him.
Other then that, I agree. For a long time it was 'not done' to question the multicultural society, but we're past that now, and there's no use in beating a dead horse.
A good example is Janmaat, a right-wing politician that has been dragged to courts for saying things that are pretty common to say nowadays. An assasination-attempt (his wife lost both her legs) wasn't even investigated by the police. Desperate denial with force.
A prime example of bull excrement there , what a surprise :dizzy2:
A gathering of various Dutch fascists and German neo-nazis ends up getting attacked by anti fascist groups and a woman ends up having a leg amputated due to complications arising from a bone fracture .
But of course don't let facts get in the way , it was clearly an assasination attempt and clearly the police didn't investigate it :no:
Would you like to tell us some of the common things that this fascist piece of excrement says that are quite common nowadays Frag ?
Would you like to start with his comments on the Jews , the blacks ,the asians , the muslims, the South Americans ?????
Nazi scum , its a pity the head wasn't amputated , as obviously racist gobshites don't have anything worthwhile in their heads so they wouldn't really miss it would they .
Ya that is how it happened, there was a firebomb thrown in his office, and his wife lost both her legs. That wasn't enough though, after that he couldn't even get a permit to build her an elevator so she could get to the second floor. And no clash between groups, the 'antifacists' did terrorise a few meeting though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
Would you like to tell us some of the common things that this fascist piece of excrement says that are quite common nowadays Frag ?
Close the borders, kick out illegals, crime among immigrants being higher, that sort of stuff. There have even been proposals to clear his name because this is all part of the political debate nowadays.
Would you like to start with his comments on the Jews , the blacks ,the asians , the muslims, the South Americans ?????
Apparantly you know more then me. Nothing of that as far as I know.
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Janmaat
edit: assasination attempt was at a hotel, not his office, my bad.
Apparantly you know more then me. Nothing of that as far as I know.
Really ?? then what were all his convictions for ?
Close the borders, kick out illegals, crime among immigrants being higher, that sort of stuff. :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Come off it Frag , either you know full well that he said a lot more than that , or you don't really know about your extreme right wing nutjobs .
There have even been proposals to clear his name because this is all part of the political debate nowadays.
Bollox , there may be some idiots making proposals but there is no way they can overturn his convictions, so they can't clear his name can they , but then again he probably would have been proud of his name as a hate filled racist bigot wouldn't he .
Really ?? then what were all his convictions for ?
For this remark 'full is full', can't make it any better for you. Ask a fellow dutchie for comfirmation. Untill he died he tried to clear his name at european court, because Fortuyn and Bolkenstein said the same things without being prosecuted.
Come off it Frag , either you know full well that he said a lot more than that , or you don't really know about your extreme right wing nutjobs .
I think you have someone else in mind, but I have no idea who that could be. He wasn't that extreme really. It just wasn't the time to make such remarks.
Bollox , there may be some idiots making proposals but there is no way they can overturn his convictions, so they can't clear his name can they , but then again he probably would have been proud of his name as a hate filled racist bigot wouldn't he
Well if he was he probably wouldn't have bothered. Sorry, you got it wrong.