Re: can the holocaust be denied?
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Originally Posted by
Fragony
Sure but the chance that an SS soldier was more ideologically motivated then a Wehrmacht soldier is considerable. I am sure many were looking for adventure and and many didn't really have a choice, but the nazi regime had already shown it's real face by the time the shooting started. Fighting honorable for a sick regime, what a waste of being honorable.
Tragic indeed. History is littered with good men who fought for bad leaders.
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Originally Posted by The Wizard
Or you could stop trying to equate regular armies of those two countries with the armed wing of a totalitarian, genocidical party. I'm not equating the Wehrmacht to the Waffen-SS here either, buddy.
The false distinction you're trying to draw, which has its origins in the travesty that was Nuremberg, has been rejected by historians and even the German government. I thought it was pretty common knowledge by now.
But, lets explore your point. Iosef Stalin was the uncontested leader of the Soviet Union. He controlled every aspect of the government with a shocking attention to minutia that would usually be left to lower level administrators. This attention was also given to the military. He hand picked leaders, weapons systems, and objectives. When he wanted thousands of their own purged, they were. When he wanted countries invaded, it happened. When he wanted entire populations of his own countrymen uprooted and sent to the gulags, they were never seen again. When Stalin said dance, you danced. Now how does that make the Russian military anything other than the armed wing of Stalin's totalitarian regime?
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Honestly, defending an organization as clearly criminal as the SS...
I am not defending anything, I am correcting your false statements.
Re: can the holocaust be denied?
“which has its origins in the travesty that was Nuremberg” What part? Judging Goering for his role in the extermination and the Racial laws? Or Keitel? Or the commander of Concentration Camps? Hitler’s henchmen?
What part was a travesty?
“The false distinction you're trying to draw” True. This legend of a distinction between SS and others is now known as irrelevant as the “regular” army took active part in the extermination, willingly or unwillingly and with more or less enthusiasm…
It was a need in the after WW2 to “clean” some part of Germany military machine in order to integrate Germany in NATO.
So you had the “good” Germans and the “bad” Germans.
However, we have proof of SS saving Jews from extermination (secretary of Himmler) and Wehrmacht units participating in massacres…
Re: can the holocaust be denied?
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Originally Posted by
PanzerJaeger
Tragic indeed. History is littered with good men who fought for bad leaders.
And maybe if we made one of the requirements for being a good man to be "not fighting for bad leaders and ideas" there'd be less of it.
Re: can the holocaust be denied?
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Originally Posted by
PanzerJaeger
The false distinction you're trying to draw, which has its origins in the travesty that was Nuremberg, has been rejected by historians and even the German government. I thought it was pretty common knowledge by now.
There is nothing false about drawing a distinction between the Red Army, consisting of conscripts and enlisted men like any ordinary army, and the NKVD's troops of ideologically indoctrinated murderers. Hey... :thinking: Why's that sound familiar? Ah, yeah! :idea2: That's cause the distinction is the same in Nazi Germany! Wehrmacht, mostly just men doing what they had to (or thought they had to), and Waffen-SS, ideological murder machine (when it comes to the volunteers). Try and be consistent, eh?
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Originally Posted by PJ
But, lets explore your point. Iosef Stalin was the uncontested leader of the Soviet Union. He controlled every aspect of the government with a shocking attention to minutia that would usually be left to lower level administrators. This attention was also given to the military. He hand picked leaders, weapons systems, and objectives. When he wanted thousands of their own purged, they were. When he wanted countries invaded, it happened. When he wanted entire populations of his own countrymen uprooted and sent to the gulags, they were never seen again. When Stalin said dance, you danced. Now how does that make the Russian military anything other than the armed wing of Stalin's totalitarian regime?
I'll take your argument to its logical conclusion then, and declare that the Wehrmacht was the armed wing of Hitler's totalitarian regime, and therefore, as you imply, evil by default. How's that sit with ya?
Re: can the holocaust be denied?
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Originally Posted by ATPG
And maybe if we made one of the requirements for being a good man to be "not fighting for bad leaders and ideas" there'd be less of it.
That's easier said than done. Take, for example, the Iraq War. As a fellow American, I'm sure you know many active duty guys and vets as I do. Almost to a man, the one's I've met have been good, honorable people.
Bush insists that he went to war to keep America safe, overthrow a vicious dictator, and help the Iraqi people; and that the failure to find WMD's was a terrible mistake. His detractors believe it was about oil, hegemony, and personal profit. We may never know the true rationale that caused him to pull the trigger.
Suppose, though, that tomorrow a memo was uncovered that confirmed our worst fears - that these soldiers invaded another sovereign nation and caused untold death and destruction all for profit. Under your requirement, having fought for a bad leader, they are bad men - dishonorable war criminals. Would you be willing to cast them into the trash bin of history?
Remember, too, that we live in an age where information is readily available - where dissenting opinions are easily heard - and it is still difficult to discern the true motivations of our leaders. The German people had been force-fed a daily diet of Goebbels' propaganda for years before the invasion of Poland, and even then, the Nazi's felt it necessary to stage an incident making it look as though Poland instigated the conflict.
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Originally Posted by The Wizard
There is nothing false about drawing a distinction between the Red Army, consisting of conscripts and enlisted men like any ordinary army, and the NKVD's troops of ideologically indoctrinated murderers. Hey... Why's that sound familiar? Ah, yeah! That's cause the distinction is the same in Nazi Germany! Wehrmacht, mostly just men doing what they had to (or thought they had to), and Waffen-SS, ideological murder machine (when it comes to the volunteers). Try and be consistent, eh?
Oh boy. Again, I'm going to have to question your knowledge on the subject. Both the Red Army and the Wehrmacht accepted huge numbers of volunteers, so I'm not really sure where you're going with that line of reasoning. :book:
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I'll take your argument to its logical conclusion then, and declare that the Wehrmacht was the armed wing of Hitler's totalitarian regime, and therefore, as you imply, evil by default. How's that sit with ya?
Apart from the fact that I did not imply that all Russian soldiers were evil (I was parroting you for effect), that is essentially true. As Brenus pointed out, the line drawn after WW2 between the Wehrmact and the Waffen-SS is false. They were both under OKW or OKH operational command. There were good SS soldiers and bad SS soldiers, just as there were good Wehrmacht soldiers and bad ones - just as there were honorable Russian soldiers and evil American ones.
That is the point I've been trying to make over and over again throughout this convoluted back and forth. Making broad, overarching statements about the level of honor or involvement in war crimes of an organization that large is simple minded, at best.
Re: can the holocaust be denied?
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Originally Posted by
PanzerJaeger
That's easier said than done. Take, for example, the Iraq War. As a fellow American, I'm sure you know many active duty guys and vets as I do. Almost to a man, the one's I've met have been good, honorable people.
Bush insists that he went to war to keep America safe, overthrow a vicious dictator, and help the Iraqi people; and that the failure to find WMD's was a terrible mistake. His detractors believe it was about oil, hegemony, and personal profit. We may never know the true rationale that caused him to pull the trigger.
Suppose, though, that tomorrow a memo was uncovered that confirmed our worst fears - that these soldiers invaded another sovereign nation and caused untold death and destruction all for profit. Under your requirement, having fought for a bad leader, they are bad men - dishonorable war criminals. Would you be willing to cast them into the trash bin of history?
I might classify them as something less than a war criminal (but more than someone who is innocent). But they knew what they were getting into when they signed on; the US military is currently a force for intervention into other nations against their will (and against our own self-interest in practice, but that is another matter). No one is forced to join our military anymore.
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Remember, too, that we live in an age where information is readily available - where dissenting opinions are easily heard - and it is still difficult to discern the true motivations of our leaders. The German people had been force-fed a daily diet of Goebbels' propaganda for years before the invasion of Poland, and even then, the Nazi's felt it necessary to stage an incident making it look as though Poland instigated the conflict.
The Nazis were not some unknown quanitiy; when the German people elected them and their political allies, what did they expect to receive? They never protested the propaganda they were supposedly force-fed.
Re: can the holocaust be denied?
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Originally Posted by
Alexander the Pretty Good
The Nazis were not some unknown quanitiy; when the German people elected them and their political allies, what did they expect to receive? They never protested the propaganda they were supposedly force-fed.
That is not exactly true. Also, it disregards the pervasiveness of the propaganda system.
Re: can the holocaust be denied?
The resistance to the Nazis, while heroic, was only a tiny fraction and never very popular (which is confirmed by the wikipedia link). Heck, the Tom Cruise guy in Valkyrie agreed with Nazi ideals and policy and only wanted to kill Hitler because he blamed him for losing the war.
I don't see how the pervasiveness of the propaganda changes things. Really, if stuff like "lets purify the race and stick it to the Jews" is plastered everywhere then it's not like anyone could pretend they didn't know what the Nazis were up to.
