I know an easy way to avoid civilian casualties: don't attack :shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
Printable View
I know an easy way to avoid civilian casualties: don't attack :shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
So you are both essentially in favour of Israel sitting back and taking rocket attacks, and not utilizing the right to defend itself?Quote:
Originally Posted by Andres
Guildernstern , you would do better with that line if you went for the IDf rules of engagement in Lebanon where they simply declared that there were no civilians so they could cover the place with cluster bombs .
Secondary explosions mean nothing without a forensic examination .Quote:
thats just what i heard on the radio- how secondary explosions rocked the buildings.
It did make me laugh when they said about secondary explosions after they blew up the university science classrooms .:dizzy2:
Well, I think I made my point of view on this matter pretty clear in my previous posts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
I'm all for peace. As long as rockets and bullets are floating through the air, there won't be no peace.
Somebody in this conflict has to be the first to stop killing people :shrug:
Sorry that this is OT, but Cromwell is one of the single most brutally judged characters in history. I know the Protestants carried out many atrocities in Ireland, but you can't pin them on Cromwell and in the grand scheme of things not even the New Model Army - they acted within the accepted rules of war of the time, and they were only in Ireland in the first place because the common folk participating in the native rebellions had failed to do so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
Hamas is never going to play nice with Israel. Look at their founding charter. Whatever Israel does, Hamas is never, ever, ever going to be peaceful.
Israel is going to be suffering such attacks, in one form or another, as long as it's going to insist on being a stubborn ass about the Eretz Yisrael thing. So meh. Build a house in a swamp, and the mosquitos will sting you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
On a more practical note, the rocket attacks are essentially a gesture and cause few if any casualties. Conversely, the Israeli reprisals are very destructive and cause huge numbers of casualties. Do the damn math. If they now must strike back, they could at least try to do it in a fashion that didn't cause massive collateral damage.
Ink on paper, self-declared. Realpolitik tends to sideline such heady declarations something fast once the situation changes. Bet you the same was once said about the USSR and their grandiose hot air about "perpetual world revolution" and the IRA regarding the UK...Quote:
Hamas is never going to play nice with Israel. Look at their founding charter. Whatever Israel does, Hamas is never, ever, ever going to be peaceful.
Hell, more likely than not the PLO/Fatah too.
So yeah.
The only thing more precious to Hamas than dead Israelis is dead Palestinians...Quote:
EDIT III: And those civilian deaths are almost impossible to avoid, because of the ways Hamas integrates with the civilian population.
Yes, an occupying colonial force invokes by its impressement upon the natives, a foreign and brutal rule, the natural consequence of bloody reprisal. You want to play conquest then you have to accept the terms.Quote:
Originally Posted by hooahguy
Israel hs never held to any peace treaty, has constantly been warring upon the Palestinian people and is a rogue state of the most heinous sort. Thank god that their bank is going down, justice cannot be too far off.
:dizzy2:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hosakawa Tito
Yeah right, another score for Western distortions of the truth, the belief that Hamas are in some way an extremist group (this will be funny in a few decades) and that they are also in some way apart from the people of Gaza.
Hamas is Gaza, they were born in Gaza, their families dot the many streets of Gaza, without Gaza there is no Hamas. Everytime a Gazan is murdered by Israel, it will usually in some way affect at least one member of Hamas.
Hamas do not use the people of Gaza, they are the people of Gaza.
John Pilger speaks out
http://www.johnpilger.com/page.asp?partid=519
Fighting in Gaza
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Iyxc5EHtrU
Well, you get the idea, no?
Just like the NAZIs didnt use the people of Germany? Or Stalin the Soviets?
Pluhhhheeeeeeseeeeeeee.
this sums it up pretty well:
https://i199.photobucket.com/albums/...4/image001.jpg
Hmm, well, which nation does Hamas want to wipe off the face of the earth? If you answer Israel, you are...Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
An idiot and a fool.
Which nation is Israel taking active steps to destroy?
starts with P, followed by alastinians.
Pardon for going OT but Hooah what is a Jewrican?
Bopa you always overestimate how much I give a damn when it comes to this subject. Frankly we should give the most money to the side that says the will ethnically cleanse in the shortest amount of time. That way my news will go back to covering to more important things like American Idol and two headed farm animals.
Well, I always knew Hamas was foolish...Quote:
Originally Posted by Bopa the Magyar
Well if you are not only trying to claim that Hamas wishes to destroy Israel but are using Wikipedia to back it up instead of the actual statement made by Hamas a while back, then yes I am afraid you are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
Yes, I feel we have been here before, I perhaps should remove my Raging Bull goggles when replying to you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
Fine, have the Hamas Covenant itself:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bopa the Magyar
http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/880818a.htm
Quote:
Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.
Quote:
[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and
international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of
the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than
a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of
Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by
Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a
waste of time, an exercise in futility.
Whatever gets you to stop listening to that horrid abomination you call music.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bopa the Magyar
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
Yet you continue in absurdity!
Anyone who knows something about Hamas knows that they reviewed that little gem a while back.
:dizzy2:Quote:
Originally Posted by hooahguy
"...but first we'll drop a million tonne high explosives on them from outer space and that'll show those cowards."
- random Marine at Fallujah, according to a snarky Swedish cartoon
Your oh-so-clever cartoon forgot the attack helos, tanks, artillery and fighter jets from the picture, methinks.
Or the little detail that the IDF doesn't particularly care if there's a baby in cart in the way. Never did to begin with.
I would also like to laugh at the absurdity of Hamas gathering away from populated areas, firstly the place is fairly packed, secondly are hamas supposed to pick some field and all gather up and wait for israel to bomb them ? They haven't got a jungle like vietnam to fight a guerilla war in, and would be massacared trying to aviod civilian casualtys, so if they believe in thier cause, and im sure the ones who put thier life on the line do, its incorrect to describe it as cowardice more fighting by any means possible ?
They should stay away from kids more though!
Google doesn't appear to know anything about Hamas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bopa the Magyar
It does know that Hamas wants the withdrawl of Israel to at least the 1949 lines and the withdrawl from all Palestinian territory before it will negotiate a long-term truce, in the worlds of Khaled Mashal.
Yes lets have a look at that badly written piece of crap...oh sorry you didn't did you , you have a brief from the Israeli government instead .:dizzy2:Quote:
Fine, have the Hamas Covenant itself:
Wow unbelievable , that Israeli soldier in the cartoon is actually following the order that came about after a big struggle in the Israeli courts that he shouldn't hide behind human shields .Quote:
this sums it up pretty well:
Now if only every soldier in the "most moral army" would follow those orders eh .
Ummm, so what?Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
In my view Israel is completley illegal and a colonial construct unworthy of existence, if the Jews had wanted safety in Palestine they should have organised something with the Arabs, not stolen their land.
As for the supposed extremism of wanting to claim back what is rightfully yours while allowing others to keep some of it, I laugh very loudly.
the only acceptable borders are those of 1949, all others are a continued act of agression worthy of millitary defiance on the part of the natives of Palestine.
Wasn't it British territory at the time?
Or, effectively, UN territory administered for the UN by the British?
According to international law, the UN could dispose of this territory more or less as it saw fit. That suggests that the original 1947 UN mandate for Israel was not "stolen" -- though one could argue that the UN didn't emphasize/appreciate the desires of the locals and nearby neighbors.
I acknowledge that anything aside from the 1947 boundaries (including Gaza) would be a separate issue. Those territories were acquired by Israel by various means, but were never sanctioned by the UN as part of returning the mandate territories to local control.
The last I checked the Arabs kind of lived on it at the time. That's usually regarded as counting for something...
Great! When do we get Prussia back?Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
Dunno, but remind me again, what were you basing your claim on it on again?
The same thing you're basing yours on. We possessed it once, so we naturally deserve it back. ~;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
Who's "we" ?
Note that the Palestinians did not lose a war after trying to dominate and conquer their neighbours, they lost a war trying to defend their land.Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
Right. What about the land we lost after the First World War then? Surely we deserve that back?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bopa the Magyar
:laugh4:
I seem to recall you were being fairly, uh, offensive that time around as well.
Not the first time I've heard that Germany started the First World War. Not the first time it's been inaccurate either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
You're going to have a very hard time arguing that the various ambitions of Imperial Germany weren't a pretty darn major factor in the process that led to it, though.
Sure. But I'm hoping you understand my point. Does France deserve Quebec back? What about Poland, does it deserve the territories toward the east? I've come to terms with the fact that some of the lands of my origin will probably never be under the governance of my people again. Perhaps Hamas should do the same, and come to terms with the current political situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
Erm, the last I heard the Quebecans were still there... not sure about the Poles, I'd have to read up on it.
On a more practical note though, you seem to be forgetting that the Palestinians are rather lacking anywhere to go and live in - which isn't quite the case with the examples you've thrown around. And it's reduced them to a sufficient misery they're willing to go to fairly extreme lenghts to try to rectify the situation.
So, your comparisions held water where again...?
Are there no Palestinians in Israel? None? Is there a single Palestinian in Israel leading a relatively normal life?Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
Yawn. You're missing the point.Quote:
On a more practical note though, you seem to be forgetting that the Palestinians are rather lacking anywhere to go and live in - which isn't quite the case with the examples you've thrown around. And it's reduced them to a sufficient misery they're willing to go to fairly extreme lenghts to try to rectify the situation.
Anyway, Israel can afford to continue retaliating. Palestinians cannot. So once Palestinians realize this and decide to stop firing the rockets, perhaps a solution can be reached.
By the way, I added on to my post. Here:
That is the point.Quote:
I've come to terms with the fact that some of the lands of my origin will probably never be under the governance of my people again. Perhaps Hamas should do the same, and come to terms with the current political situation.
:laugh4:
Awsome, you realise that you are talking tosh and so you descend into creating absurd diversions, now why don't we get back to the part where you said Hamas wanted to destroy Israel, shall we?
So, Hamas does not wish to destroy Israel and would very likely lay down its home made weapons if Israel returned to the '67 borders. However, even this I warrant will in the long term not be enough to stop the Palestinians from seeking further justice, that is, the full Israeli withdrawal to its UN suggested borders and apology for being such an awful neighbour. Seems just and right to me. In any case, as soon as the US loses Hegemonic status, Israel will be in trouble. I suggest they and their supporters start changing things for the better now.
That's what a friend of mine thinks as well, but he reads quality newspapers and watches the news, he can't help it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Guildenstern
It's very simple, if you expect me to embrace you and call your enemy scumbags then maybe you should not behave like a scumbag yourself. Giving war a chance, very nice, maybe you would like to repeat that in the face of someone who lost his whole family in that war you so readily approve of?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Would you feel the same way if I embraced the bombing of Rotterdam in 1940 or whenever that was? Yeah, don't know when it was but at least we showed those dutch beards who has the power. :dizzy2: *
the point isn't that Hamas are actually nice guys, the point is that when you throw 500pound bombs into civilian areas, your usual excuse of "surgical strikes" stops working and your "collateral damage" are whole families who may have nothing to do with Hamas. If I lost my family that way I might just join Hamas myself or just form my own terrorist group because you know, that would really piss me off. :thumbsdown:
*That's just hypothetical my dutch brother
Sure no problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
the point isn't that Hamas are actually nice guys, the point is that when you throw 500pound bombs into civilian areas, your usual excuse of "surgical strikes" stops working and your "collateral damage" are whole families who may have nothing to do with Hamas
How many percent of the Gaza population are children? 60 or so? Even more? And how many percent of these casualties are children? Does that sound like just throwing daisy-cutters on civilian area's to you? Yes surgical strikes.
that the palestinian people are represented politically by a group that:Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleGrizzly
a) has the stated aim of destroying its neighbourhood superpower
b) launching attacks at said superpower from the hospitals and schools of its populace
tells me that:
1) the palestinians in gaza are deeply stupid, and will sadly pay a high price for that stupidity
2) Hamas moral legitimacy to act as a valid political representative of their nation, to other nations, is nil.
if the palestinian people are willing to pay that price:
i) more power to them i say, if they succeed in creating a palestinian state out of the ashes of israel then they deserve to reap the rewards
ii) that doesn't mean that I will treat their politcal representatives as anything other than what they are, a bunch of terrorists
wow, no pleasing you. you are actually complaining about a political system that acts responsibly and a military that obeys those responsible political directives. tough crowd.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
sadly for your sense of injustice, that has no bearing on legal reality, and israel is indeed about as valid a nation state as exists anywhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bopa the Magyar
the matter of the occupied territories is another matter, but that does negate israels right to exist.
tend to agree with this sentiment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
So let me get this right, if britian manages to invade a country and take it over successfully today, then tommorrow the residents have no more valid claims on the lands because you now we'd have to go through 1000's of years of history giving everyone thier land back.... Great!
this sums it up pretty well:
Really ? to me the solidiers seem to be eqaully well equiped, your missing some tanks and some f-15's there....
Maybe a more accurate picture would be a bunch of rag tag gunmen hiding among some houses with aircraft wizzing over head and bombs exploding everywhere...
so hamas can go and massacre hundreds of citizens if it wants to because they didnt sign?
It is a bit difficult to hold people to treaty's they didn't sign, it doesn't mean im happy for them to commit war crimes but they didn't sign up saying they wouldn't. Im pretty sure they could be brought up for war crimes though, bring the palestinian and israeli leadership in and punish them both for thier crimes... imo.
Keep dreaming
It is really of no use having this discussion if it's has to be held witheen these limits, it's the leftist dogma about causes of terrorism, that cartoon I posted earlier nails it.
Yes logic can be a bit annoying, hmm out of interest then Fragony why the hell does Hamas exsist if not because of the grievances of the palestinian people ?!
Did palestinians wake up one day and decide it would be fun to start killing israelis ?
You can argue that palestinians or hamas response to thier grievances that they have is too much or unfair or bad, but too deny that hamas exsists because of palestinians grievances just completely flies in the face of logic... your reasoning is quite simply absurd on this frag
a few questions if you'll humor me frag,
1) Why does Hamas exsist if not because of the grievances of the palestinian people ?
2) If the palesinians do have grievances and israel saw to these complaints, do you think the palestinians would still engage in terrorism ? and why ?
3) If the palestinian grievances are seen to and they no longer support terrorism as a result, do you think hamas would still be able to operate without local support ? and if so... how ?!
However, what the poster really meant -- which you are aware -- is that the IRA had no designs (offically at least) on Scottish or English territory. Hamas (or at least notable elements thereof) really would prefer for ALL of Israel to cease to exist.
I don't think it downplays the issue that it was northern ireland they had designs on, northern ireland is part of britian as much as london or glasgow is. Well this isn't completely the same point as hamas wanting israel off the map, it does make a very good point (which is maybe the point tribes was trying to make) and that is when you deal with peoples legitimate grievances the terrorists will (whether they want to or not) withdraw thier extreme claims and become more moderate as grievances are settled.
The whole place is alot more radicalised and worse off than the ireland england situation but hearts and minds can work all the same...
It's quite simple why Hamas exists LittleGrizly, this isn't about Palestina it's about Israel, Palestina is just the frontline of the propaganda-war between the west and the east. And if you wonder why Palestines support them, go to youtube and do a search for "Palestinians killing Palestinians", make sure you are 18+, and don't go if you have a general dislike for walls with holes in it.
that the palestinian people are represented politically by a group that:
a) has the stated aim of destroying its neighbourhood superpower
b) launching attacks at said superpower from the hospitals and schools of its populace
tells me that:
1) the palestinians in gaza are deeply stupid, and will sadly pay a high price for that stupidity
2) Hamas moral legitimacy to act as a valid political representative of their nation, to other nations, is nil.
if the palestinian people are willing to pay that price:
i) more power to them i say, if they succeed in creating a palestinian state out of the ashes of israel then they deserve to reap the rewards
ii) that doesn't mean that I will treat their politcal representatives as anything other than what they are, a bunch of terrorists
Well i agree with what your saying to a certian point, but israel has pushed the palestinians to more and more extremity and now use that extremity as an excuse for thier actions, alot of the fault for palestinian terrorism lies with israel causing it...
I heard the vatican the other day (peace and justice spokesman) said the place is starting to resemble a concentration camp more and more every day, he has a point i think the wording its just likely to cause upset and let israeli supporters concentrate on the insult of the matter rather than dealing with the point behind it, a much more accurate statement would have compared it to something like the warsaw ghetto. I cheer when i see movies representing these people fighting back, even though it got them all killed in the end, far better to go out fighting. And i think this of the palestinians to a certian extent, starved of basic nessecities and pushed to the extreme of not caring for thier lives aslong as they can hit the enemy back....
Bopa you always overestimate how much I give a damn when it comes to this subject. Frankly we should give the most money to the side that says the will ethnically cleanse in the shortest amount of time.
The main problem there being.... the israeli's are obviously in the far better position to dio the ethnic cleansing, but once they kill of all the palestinians aren't we going to just cause a hell of alot more terrorism...
If were going to go nazi style on it then lets do it properly and just kill both groups off, noone can have any accusations of bias then...
this isn't about Palestina it's about Israel, Palestina is just the frontline of the propaganda-war between the west and the east.
I now hamas is supported by various financial backers throughout the middle east, the source of income for the terrorist group is no really all that important, obviously it has some importance but what a terrorist organisation needs more than money if commited fighters ready to die for the cause..
So without palestinians grievances there would be nobody for hamas to recruit to fight israel ?
Or do you disagree ?
We really seem to disagree on basics here so im trying to figure out some basic logic we can both agree to so that we can discuss the issue better... ill get on to trying to dispute or disprove your view if we can some basic agreement on the issues and causes as without a little agreement somewhere we may just end up shouting opposing views at each other... occasionly fun but rather pointless...
Yes, if Palestina was a second Dubai with golden watertaps Israel would still be a jewish state it wouldn't make any difference they would just fire better rockets.Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleGrizzly
Yes, if Palestina was a second Dubai with golden watertaps Israel would still be a jewish state it wouldn't make any difference they would just fire better rockets.
So even if all palsetinian grievances were met you think
1) they would still attack israel ? and why ? because they have some illogical hatred of jews which is nothing to do with thier grievances ?
2) the population would still be willing to fight and die with and in support of hamas ? or would hamas just operate without palestinians wanting them to ?
Just to make sure I understand your viewpoint correctly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
You believe that as long as there are Jews and Arabs in the region, there will be war?
You believe peace between those two groups is not possible and thus there are only two options:
a) one group has to leave, either by moving out are getting eliminated entirely (genocide?);
b) leave as it is (i.e. let them throw rockets at each other every once in a while), since a) is worse than b)?
With a strong preference for b), I assume?
Why genocide, Hamas needs to be weakened so the much more moderate Fatah can step up. Talking with Hamas gets you nowhere never did never will, Fatah wants a Palestinian state Hamas wants to destroy Israel, Abbas is someone you can negotiate with they key is in the lock. I am sure Fatah will be more then willing to tie things up with the leftovers after all that has happened.
1) they would still attack israel ? and why ? because they have some illogical hatred of jews which is nothing to do with thier grievances ?
2) the population would still be willing to fight and die with and in support of hamas ? or would hamas just operate without palestinians wanting them to ?
Yes and yes.
Oh, no sounds, just pictures.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
the funny thing is that the description saying missiles on the first picture is clearly wrong because as you can see these things look a lot more like bombs, simple bombs. And what do you call several bombs falling to the ground in succession? Yes, carpet bombing...
Oh and btw carpet bombing does not equal surgical strike.
Neither does shelling them with artillery or blowing up a mobile medical clinic.
And if you had such large craters in your body after a surgery, I'd sue the surgeon my friend. ~;)
Look, I approve of shooting those Hamas rocketeers by going in with guns etc. but leave the civilians alone, don't beat them or anything and concentrate on actual surgical strikes targeting those who actually do fire those nasty rockets into israel that can't even damage a road (but still kill people).
And by the way, the israeli army looks like a bunch of rebel scum on those pics( ~;) ), isn't there anything more to their uniform than "it has to be warm and look kinda green"?
In that case, I misunderstood you. Sorry :bow:Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Yes and yes.
ok, just to clarify those answers (as i worderd the questions badly your yes could mean one of two things)
Is it the palestinian people that would continue to attack israel regardless of grievances being met or hamas ?
and why ?
and for the other question did the yes mean that hamas could still operate in the area regardless of palestinian views or that palestinians would support hamas regardless of thier grievances being met ?
Is it the palestinian people that would continue to attack israel regardless of grievances being met or hamas ?
and why ?
Hamas. Because.
and for the other question did the yes mean that hamas could still operate in the area regardless of palestinian views or that palestinians would support hamas regardless of thier grievances being met ?
Yes they could still operate regardless, been to youtube already? Also do a search for Grand Mufti Haj Amin Al Husseini while you are there.
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:Quote:
wow, no pleasing you. you are actually complaining about a political system that acts responsibly and a military that obeys those responsible political directives. tough crowd.
That comeback might work if the IDF didn't keep getting caught on camera using human shields .:dizzy2:
As for a responsible political system , how many rulings by the Israeli supreme court does the government of Israel completely ignore ?
One nice set of repeated rulings that ties in withwould be the ruling on the Palestinian refugees in Israel who have had their land stolen and are not allowed to return to it by the government even though the courts have ruled that they must have their land back as the siezure was illegal and must be allowed to return to it .Quote:
Are there no Palestinians in Israel? None? Is there a single Palestinian in Israel leading a relatively normal life?
Not really , there were lots of terms and conditions .Quote:
According to international law, the UN could dispose of this territory more or less as it saw fit.
The main conditions broken were the "fair and equitable" and the "it being clearly understood" .
Though it could also be said that the Jewish agency broke its licence to be recognised as an administrative body when it banned settlers from employing locals .
Did your country sign a treaty giving Prussia away ?Quote:
Great! When do we get Prussia back?
Did your country sign a treaty giving that land away ?Quote:
What about the land we lost after the First World War then? Surely we deserve that back?
If you can find a treaty doing the same for Palestine/Israel then you might have a point .:yes:
Seems to me like your position is more and more collapsing into the reductionist failure of "Arabz/Muslimz iz teh eval", Frags... :smash:Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
That is your mind playing tricks on you making you see things that aren't there, I sayz Hamas is evil if I thought muslims were evil I wouldn'twant Fatah to step up. I mean how do you guys manage to mentally block what Hamas is pretty clear about? Like water from a duck it just slides off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
They can rant and rave for cheap populist points all they want; they've thus far been in the position where Realpolitik has not much interfered with it. Such grandiose rhetoric rarely survives long the praxis of governing a society and having to do all the usual associated compromises.
Not that they can even realistically dream of making good of their high-faluting boasts either.
Basically, I flatly refuse to take such bombast at a face value; doubly so based on what I know of Middle Eastern rhetorical culture (which Israel also practices a fair bit), where exaggeration is the accepted norm.
Well if the rethoric fails to impress you how about the thousands of rockets. Hamas are scum, here for example of one of these schools that has European quality media slipping of their chairs with pacifist desire.Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=tNtgiRR0iDM
Hamas. Because.
Because.... ?
To get someone to put thier life on the line (or literally give up in case of suicide bombing) takes very real grievances and heartache, people aren't simply willing to give up thier lives because they dislike a group, otherwise BNP woyuld be suicide bombing moques regularly. I would agree that thier rich backers (some or most of them) would keep going and thier leaders who are in it for themselves...
But do you think they can convince enough average people* without any grievances to put thier life on the line ?
If yes why would these average people throw thier lives away to kill a few israelis ? is there some kind of palestinian gene which makes them want to kill isrealis regardless of what thier lives are like ?
*they need them as thier basic foot solidiers and suicide bombers, millionaires aren't going to put thier lives on the line
Yes they could still operate regardless
theres 2 problems i have with that
1) Hamas needs regular palestinians as its foot solidiers and suicide bombers, i can accept that hamas leaders (some or most maybe) would want to keep going without any good reason, and that thier rich backers would still want thier proxy war, but without palestinian support where do they get thier grunts ?
2) Hamas needs palestinians to cooperate to help them function within the area, firstly they need to hide among the population and an unfriendly native population would simply tell the israelis where people are. Secondly hamas takes great losses all the time, what keeps it going is an unhappy native population to recruit from so it can replace all its losses, without this recruitment pool they simply die off....
been to youtube already?
Yeah... was watching some hungarian teacher stripping.... in all honesty i now what you were talking about anyway, you'll need to tell me what your paticular point about palestinian killing palestinians was, i already now it happens...
Also do a search for Grand Mufti Haj Amin Al Husseini while you are there.
If you want to make a paticular point about his actions or something he's said i will humor you and go and watch...
but i get the feeling he's just going to be an extremist with some fiery rhetoric, which tells me what exactly... that theres some crazy people out there ? that palestinians are crazy or just that hamas is crazy... ?
For example i could link you to some BNP leader saying about how all he wants to do is kill pakistanis* what would this prove exactly ? that all british are racist nutters ? or that certain conditions have led to some of the extreme elements in our society to extremity ?
Thousands of rockets that achieve crap all. The suicide bombers were rather more effective on the average, I seem to recall.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Care to tell me, how many bombs and such did the PLO set off during its history ? Calmed down a fair bit now. The IRA ? Ditto. Same thing. Hamas is just in a different phase of its organisational life-cycle, namely the "blood and guts fighting" one rather than the "acceptable compromise reached" one.
As for them kiddies, bah. Did you already forget what was posted earlier on this thread about the Zionistjugend of the militant Israeli colonists on the West Bank ? Pot, kettle. The terrifying Hamas Preschool Brigade at least isn't out doing bad things to people and property...
Actually they are breeding a whole new type of jew, jewish children who grew up under constant threat of rocket-attacks, who realise that no matter what they do the world will condemn them, and they will stop caring. It's achieving a whole lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
The unheard;
http://cgis.jpost.com/Blogs/fendel/e...stinian_rocket
Well, I don't think Hamas is the main problem. Kill each and every member of Hamas and I'm pretty sure there will be several new Palestinian organisations ready to attack Israel in no time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Hamas itself isn't the problem, it's merely a symptom of something deeper.
The problem is that thus far, for decades, both parties have always been using violence to try to solve their conflict.
As long as bullets and rockets are floating through the air, nothing will ever change.
And somebody has to be the first to stop shooting. Killing people is not the solution (One would think that after decades of killing, both parties would understand that by now, but alas :shame:).
I am outraged about these attacks by Israel, just like I'm outraged by any attack from terrorists.
The worst mistake you can make as an outsider is picking a side in this conflict.
They didn't seem to care too much back in '48 already, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Massive tears.
That also begs the question of what do you suppose it does to the Palestinian kids to have the IDF playing at live-fire urban renewal around their neighbourhood every few months...?
They didn't seem to care too much back in '48 already, though.
Massive tears.
Being exterminated does odd things to people, funny how you can't bring up any understanding for that, being exterminated is somewhat more then being harrased while at your daily stone-throwing festivities.
That also begs the question of what do you suppose it does to the Palestinian kids to have the IDF playing at live-fire urban renewal around their neighbourhood every few months...?
Yes the obvious and expected counter, but Israel isn't the agressor Israel is the victim. The minute the state was made the arab states were out for it's extermination, what could be the difference with Jordan, Iraq, Syria and all the other new states? Take a pick
a) It was the best piece of land
b) it is a jewish state.
c) I want to say Gah.
Killing people is not the solution
Yes it is
Well, both sides have been trying that approach for decades now and it doesn't seem to work :shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Unless peace in the region is not what you desire, then killing people is ok, I guess.
If Israel wanted arabs dead they would be dead. If Israel wants Hamas dead Hamas would be dead, but European :daisy: expect Israel to behave to our oh-so-recent standards in a place on earth that isn't anywhere like oh-so-recent Europe. That annoys me to no end it's so incredibly unfair why don't we aproach the world the way it is instead how how salon-socialists want it to be?Quote:
Originally Posted by Andres
Bollox , it is bothQuote:
but Israel isn't the agressor Israel is the victim.
No they were not . Besides which the State you talk of being made has never actually existed .Quote:
The minute the state was made the arab states were out for it's extermination
Is that the final solution you are pushing Frag ?:dizzy2:Quote:
Yes it is
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:Quote:
If Israel wants Hamas dead Hamas would be dead
Israel needs Hamas , thats why it doesn't want it dead .
Just like Hamas needs Israel or it wouldn't exist.
Well, the region we are discussing would be much better of if it was entirely inhabited by jewish and arab salon socialists.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Yes, it would get boring after a while, listening to all those self righteous :daisy: who think they know it all, patronising everybody who dares to come near them and just keep blah blah blah-ing until you would start crying and beg them to please keep their nonsense and naive fairy tales of peace for them for at least 5 minutes.
But they wouldn't be killing each other... :smash:
No they were not . Besides which the State you talk of being made has never actually existed .
Neither did Belgium.
Is that the final solution you are pushing Frag ?
If that final solution would be Hamas, then yes. If it's the Palestinians, then no.
Israel needs Hamas , thats why it doesn't want it dead .
Just like Hamas needs Israel or it wouldn't exist.
True, so we have now made a full circle and it all comes together, hence my claim that the Palestine is just the frontline of the propaganda war between the west and the east, tada.
BTW frag i had a few questions if you would be so kind, not just out to score points it is good to now what the 'other side' believes...
Actually they are breeding a whole new type of jew, jewish children who grew up under constant threat of rocket-attacks, who realise that no matter what they do the world will condemn them, and they will stop caring. It's achieving a whole lot.
Actually they are breeding a whole new type of paelstinian, palestinian children who grew up under constant threat of rocket-attacks, who realise that no matter what they do Israel will attack them, and they will stop caring. It's achieving a whole lot.
Being exterminated does odd things to people, funny how you can't bring up any understanding for that, being exterminated is somewhat more then being harrased while at your daily stone-throwing festivities.
Are you trying to claim israeli's are being exterminated whilst palestinians simply have thier stone throwing activities disturbed ?!
You couldn't call either an extermination but the statement would much more accurately describe the palestinian plight than the israeli one. Unfortunately for those with a pro israeli viewpoint numbers DO matter when it comes to words like extermination...
what could be the difference with Jordan, Iraq, Syria and all the other new states? Take a pick
a) It was the best piece of land
b) it is a jewish state.
c) I want to say Gah.
errm, you missed the obvious one... D) A bunch of foriegners coming in and creating a new country* and displacing the local population
Yes the others where also new countrys but they were simply a big empire divided into much smaller sections without much real effect to the natives, israel was something completely different
Killing people is not the solution
Yes it is
So tell me, do you think terrorism can be defeated simply by killing terrorists, because its an absurd idea, without addressing the underlying problems as well you simply create more terrorists...
Though admittedly if you kill off the entire palestinian population there would be no palestinian terrorism, seen as noone actually wants to do that (or pretty much noone) it basically means that terrorism can't stopped by just killing terrorists...
but Israel isn't the agressor Israel is the victim.
It isn't really a victim, through its continued taking off more and more land, complete control of basic resources and making the palestinians in some of the worst conditions in the world they have brought it on themselves...
In terms of the aggressor in this individual stage of the conflict i have heard conflicting reports, some hamas spokesman said the other day israel launched a raid which killed some hamas leader before they responded with the rockets which caused the israeli response were discussing now.... not that it matters much anyway....
In terms of the aggressor from the conflict at large you can't really put that down to the palestinian people, it was the arab states that went to war with israel, not the plaestinian people but it was then the palestinian people who suffered as a result
so you could say in terms of Arab states vs israel, Arab states are agressor
but in terms of palestinian people vs israel, israel is the aggressor...
That being said im sick of both sides claiming the other started it, they should work from where thier at today, not hark back to some war half a century ago as a good excuse for thier current occupation...
BTW frag i had a few questions if you would be so kind, not just out to score points it is good to now what the 'other side' believes...
I know you are actually interested in discussion thx for that. You seem to be unwilling to accept such a thing such as pure hate, hate isn't rational and in a rational world hate wouldn't exist but it's not a rational world and hate can exist for no rational reason, but it exists; and for those that can use it hate is just the crowbar. Make no mistake antisemitism is rampant in the islamic world did you ever actually talk to your islamic friends? Just scratch the surface it's there, not because they are bad people there is a whole lot more to it. All the muslims I know are from former Yugoslavia I (yes me) work as a volunteer there we tag them along, they have no reason to hate Israeli's, I would assume they hate us dutchies but they don't, but they all do hate the jews regardless.
it funny that you call me an idiot over this matter but in reality you are so much more clueless than you think you are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
it was british land- arabs owned very little of it. the brits can do whatever they want to it, including giving it to others. if you are saying the UK couldnt give up israel to the jews, i guess jordan doesnt exist either because if im not mistaken, the brits gave that to the arabs.
and to say that the arab states around israel didnt rush to exterminate israel is :daisy:
The thing with killing high Hamas officials is that they usually fill up the spot after the assassination. Hence you get absolutely nowhere because there's always someone to fill the position, possibly more fanatic and cunning than his predecessor. And you can't kill them all anyway, since Israel will never use it's nuclear weapon in this struggle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
:balloon2: