Chess - Game Thread [Concluded]

GG all, congrats to Monty, and thanks to Sooh for hosting! :bow:

This was a really weird game for me so I'm not really sure how much I should contribute, so let's just put in a couple of general comments now:

1. Strategy: In pregame and D1, the goal the mafia team agreed on was to take control of the thread, keep each other as consensus towns, and, most importantly, keep Logic the strongman alive so we could ensure a kill on Pizza or Winston without having to worry about doctor protection etc. Obviously this blew up in our faces for a number of reasons - Pizza was too persistent, hit the right target, and we weren't townreading each other as much as we initially agreed on. By the end of the day, it became apparent that our Plan A had failed utterly, and I don't think any of us were prepared for an alternative.

2. The Dp101 CFD: I usually don't like to talk about my own approach in terms of playing games for a variety of reasons, so here's a little secret: sometimes, as mafia, I do things just to do things. This is generally done to combat the whole "mafia have a specific agenda they need to accomplish and you can use this knowledge when hunting them" tactic. This was the case for the Dp CFD attempt on D1. I can't speak for Zack, but I honestly think I would have done the same thing - though perhaps to a lesser extent - as town. This kind of fell in line with Plan A completely falling apart. I knew it wouldn't change anything, we didn't really have a fallback plan in place at this point in time, so I just wanted to have some fun before the guillotine dropped. It wasn't desperation - we knew Logic was drawing dead - it was just stress relief.

3. Thoughts on game balance: The initial impression judging from the roles we had access to was that town didn't have much in the way of power roles. A one-shot strongman is a decent role but isn't exactly superpowered, and a mafia/town lover team is actually an additional crutch for us. In addition, the fact that the thread remained open at night was rough, as over the years I've gotten used to completely putting the game out of mind at night and just recharging the batteries for the next day - meanwhile, the town was continuing to solve. Because of the public nightchat, I think the mafia being offered the choice of being allowed to stay in scumchat to help out or not is reasonable enough of a compensation for this. In addition, the Choxorn role seemed fine, and the Dp tiebreaker role... man, I'm just glad Monty killed him instead of Pizza that final night. :laugh4:

I have other thoughts as well but I think this will serve for now. Again, a big thanks to Sooh for hosting this and everybody for playing!

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Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief

2. The Dp101 CFD: I usually don't like to talk about my own approach in terms of playing games for a variety of reasons, so here's a little secret: sometimes, as mafia, I do things just to do things. This is generally done to combat the whole "mafia have a specific agenda they need to accomplish and you can use this knowledge when hunting them" tactic. This was the case for the Dp CFD attempt on D1. I can't speak for Zack, but I honestly think I would have done the same thing - though perhaps to a lesser extent - as town. This kind of fell in line with Plan A completely falling apart. I knew it wouldn't change anything, we didn't really have a fallback plan in place at this point in time, so I just wanted to have some fun before the guillotine dropped. It wasn't desperation - we knew Logic was drawing dead - it was just stress relief.


and the Dp tiebreaker role... man, I'm just glad Monty killed him instead of Pizza that final night. :laugh4:

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Yeah, I didn't really quite believe my own scumread of you at that point, because I know that a. my opinion on CFDs is against the grain, and b. some people like to criticise me for it. Tbh I think you could have both gotten away with it if you saw it as one black mark rather than completely flipping your read, but eh.


Yeah once I died I was rather put out, I wanted to use my role at least once. It could have won us the game ;-;

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Originally Posted by Dp101

Yeah, I didn't really quite believe my own scumread of you at that point, because I know that a. my opinion on CFDs is against the grain, and b. some people like to criticise me for it. Tbh I think you could have both gotten away with it if you saw it as one black mark rather than completely flipping your read, but eh.


Yeah once I died I was rather put out, I wanted to use my role at least once. It could have won us the game ;-;

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Let me tell you a secret. I was kinda sad that Monty changed his kill, because I was looking forward to the mind:daisy: moment when you had to decide who would die.

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

And knowing is half the battle. Just don't forget to make the same mistake twice.

Always make the same mistake twice.

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Fool him twice... you can't get fooled again.

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

This is what happened in FrenchRev and XCOM as well. The "sweet spot". In FrenchRev admittedly it was multidimensional given the multiball setup, where Choxorn turned out both universally town/null-read, and perceived as much less of a factional threat by people in the other 3 (4 including Mafia, but that was just him anyway) factions. But the principle remains.

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I'm not sure if I'd ever be able to pull that off again, because by now everyone knows how good I am at faking tone and I'd probably get paranoia-lynched at some point, regardless of whether I was actually scum or not, unless I had some really hard mechanical proof of my townieness.

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Originally Posted by Dp101

Yeah, I didn't really quite believe my own scumread of you at that point, because I know that a. my opinion on CFDs is against the grain, and b. some people like to criticise me for it. Tbh I think you could have both gotten away with it if you saw it as one black mark rather than completely flipping your read, but eh.

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For me, I already thought Zack and GH looked kinda scummy for other reasons- if I was townreading them I might have just thought it was odd and ignored it, but since I wasn't the CFD just looked like another red flag on the pile of red flags I was already seeing from them.

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Originally Posted by Sooh

Let me tell you a secret. I was kinda sad that Monty changed his kill, because I was looking forward to the mind:daisy: moment when you had to decide who would die.

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lol, well, I think Monty would have died for the wrong reasons in that case. Hell, maybe even fro the right ones, going back and rereading his posts on the final day with full knowledge makes me feel like they weren’t quite as rock-solid as the early one, specifically around justifying his vote and how he talked to Pizza. I’m not sure if I would have figured it out, but I’m confident that the signs were there and I could have done it.

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Originally Posted by Dp101

lol, well, I think Monty would have died for the wrong reasons in that case. Hell, maybe even fro the right ones, going back and rereading his posts on the final day with full knowledge makes me feel like they weren’t quite as rock-solid as the early one, specifically around justifying his vote and how he talked to Pizza. I’m not sure if I would have figured it out, but I’m confident that the signs were there and I could have done it.

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It's funny, because in my view those were some of my towniest intonations all game.

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

I think this is definitely the first game I've won as Mafia without being carried by Pizza.

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Actually, that's not quite true. There was the Pizza-hosted Darkling game with Diana, Zack, and edse. I got lynched D1 and pissed Diana off by expressing pro-town positions in the QT. (She got her revenge in Pirate II)

And for the epitome of "carrying" there's History of Violence, the Visor game Pizza sometimes references in regard to me and bussing. He lynched me, his only partner, D1 and soloed the game.

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Originally Posted by Pizza

I still can't believe I called myself an "unstoppable mafia god" and got away with it.

This game was nuts.

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It's true. He said this after a mislynch with a couple rounds to go, and still won:

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Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

ON SNAP, PIZZA WINS AGAIN!!! WOOOT WOOT WOOOOOT

Play the freaking victoly music.

I am an unstoppable mafia GOD!!!!

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I wonder where Pizza is. I hope he hasn't been driven mad by late events.

(Pizza... wherever you are... we're thinking of you)

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Originally Posted by Sooh

Just something so simple as rand has so much to say for a game. Had Slaan or Pizza been randed into the lover pair instead, the game might have been very very different. It certainly would have made things trickier for Monty :)

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Oh I probably would've been just as bamboozelt... lovers on my homeforum always win together, so if they are town/wolf they are essentially 3p with the wolfpartner having access to wolf chat so I'd assume that monty had no reason to lie to me and I'd just assume that we were v/v without ever looking at it >_>

Grats monty, wp. I had come to the conclusion that it could have been anyone but Pizza, this POE was annoying.

Funnily enough I started scum reading Slaan for his positive read on you. I should have pursued the nag on you after the ISO, but I legitimately couldn't get why anyone why someone would just seemingly make up reads...I mean I guess I should change the approach, but I'm not really sure how to handle that. Even without the Slaan stuff, I'm not sure the outcome would have been much different, maybe we get a CSargo lynch, but we had the chance when we lynch Barto, I was right on my read on Csargo though, just lynching less townie over slightly more townier townie at that point.

Pizza will join us when he has gotten some distance to things I think.

~~~An Appreciation of One of Our Betters~~~

Friends, Orgahs, fellow countrymen. I stand before you all today with the intent to extol the many virtues of one of our number. You may be surprised by whom I about to speak of, but the reason for my doing so is simple: Among his many admirable qualities, his humility perhaps shines most gloriously of them all. Thus the task falls upon me to wax poetic about the man who deserves all of the accolades we can think of. I speak, of course, about GeneralHankerchief [sic].

If you're not familiar with GeneralHankerchief, perhaps you might know him by one of his alter egos. GH, Jeff Probst, he even briefly went as Fuchs in a very successful tenure in the legendary game MU Anniversary where, of course, he was immediately named a Gentleman and a Scholar, and hastened Visorslash's release to a remote cabin in the woods for a month with no internet access, where he recorded a failed folk album. His post total accumulated from that single expedition was high enough to receive lucrative offers from Yates and faZ, and his name still rightly strikes fear in the heart of many a Werewolf.

He is a decorated and exemplary host, welding together the same universe in his famous Mafia X series with the raw power of an electric razor yet also the fine precision of a jackhammer. In terms of hosting games set in a dubiously historical universe - which I notoriously despise - there is perhaps no finer and more talented figure at this than GeneralHankerchief. His French Revolution game somewhat demonstrates his skill at this always-difficult task.

GeneralHankerchief's skill as a player is also, of course, unmatched. Truly khaan's better half, GeneralHankerchief has weaved through the myriad of thankless roles he has been assigned over the years, always cutting the most robust figure on the dance floor that is our lives. He also made the finals of the annual Mafia Championships a year after such noted competitors as Zack and Askthepizzaguy, and did better than Visorslash, who could only muster up a D3 lynch while GeneralHankerchief, known for his perseverance and refusal to give up, lasted all the way until D4.

Yes, truly GeneralHankerchief is a shining example and role model to all of us on all possible fronts that you can think of. While Montmorency may have been GeneralHankerchief's only wolf teammate to ever survive a game, while Seamus Fermanagh may have the best hand-written notes, while Askthepizzaguy may have been a more active member of the community, and while Visorslash may be the Mike to my Hunt, there is one person who shines above them - and us - all. I speak of the one and only...

Heart-stopping,

Pants-dropping,

House-rocking,

Earth-quaking,

Booty-shaking,

Pelt-taking,

Looooooove-making...

The one...
The only...

The great...

GeneralHankerchief!!!

Long may he grace us with his presence!

Pelt-taking?
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Wolf pelts. :curtain:

Logic-taking?

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

Pelt-taking?

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wolf pelts

So apparently one might consider that Zack enjoyed playing with GH..:square:

Congratulations, winners.

Thanks for hosting, Sooh.

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Originally Posted by Sooh

Pizza will join us when he has gotten some distance to things I think.

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As for my fellow orgahs:

Keep your sabers up. I've enjoyed spending the past decade playing with you.

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

Pelt-taking?
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Wolf pelts. :curtain:

Logic-taking?

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What do I have to do with this? Zack's extolling GH, and never once mentions me (nor an uncapitalized logic.)

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Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

As for my fellow orgahs:

Keep your sabers up. I've enjoyed spending the past decade playing with you.

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Why are you making it sound like you are leaving.

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Originally Posted by Dp101

Why are you making it sound like you are leaving.

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These games are destroying the relationships I have with my friends.

And I am compulsive and cannot stop myself from trying. It's not healthy.

I got 800 posts and almost no sleep for a week in a guessing game. Time to put this habit down since I'm out of control.

I'm so sorry.

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

I'm so sorry.

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Don't be. You rocked this game. This is all inside my head, it has nothing to do with you. Had town won the game, I'd feel the same way.

Going to school and trying to pay attention on no sleep is not realistic. Being unable to stop myself means I have to not put myself in this position.

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Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

I got 800 posts and almost no sleep for a week in a guessing game. Time to put this habit down since I'm out of control.

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I feel you. I dont make 800 posts in a game, but many times i have gone too deep in the game and it becomes draining. Now after a long break i feel rejuvenated and also have healthier less emotional view in the game. It has always been a pleasure to play with you or against you. Rest and relax now old friend and come back when you feel like it.:bow:

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Originally Posted by Winston Hughes

My drunk reads are legendary.

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This is what I was aiming about when I made an offhand comment, early in the game, about players (cofcofalsohankerchiefcofcof) being/getting hammered.

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Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

I got 800 posts and almost no sleep for a week in a guessing game. Time to put this habit down since I'm out of control.

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I was thinking that to myself while we were playing. If we're stupid enough to let you hog the thread, fine, but you're still spending too much time on a game. Maybe you should only join games where the GM enforces a daily posting quota?

I hope we can help you maintain a healthy level of activity, next time.

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Originally Posted by El Barto

I was thinking that to myself while we were playing. If we're stupid enough to let you hog the thread, fine, but you're still spending too much time on a game. Maybe you should only join games where the GM enforces a daily posting quota?

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

Limit number of posts by players during day (unlimited by night - or the reverse?)

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Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

Don't be. You rocked this game. This is all inside my head, it has nothing to do with you. Had town won the game, I'd feel the same way.

Going to school and trying to pay attention on no sleep is not realistic. Being unable to stop myself means I have to not put myself in this position.

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Well, yeah, that's why I only post like 5 times a phase these days, because I'm being realistic and knowing I don't have time for much more than that.

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

I hope we can help you maintain a healthy level of activity, next time.

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I'll try and host such a game soon™, i.e. after term ends, if there's nobody else hosting.

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Originally Posted by Choxorn

Well, yeah, that's why I only post like 5 times a phase these days, because I'm being realistic and knowing I don't have time for much more than that.

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Yes, believe it or not, whenever I'm playing during a term at uni I place a limit on how much time and attention I dedicate to mafia. This last year or so I've even played only the one game at a time.

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Originally Posted by El Barto

This is what I was aiming about when I made an offhand comment, early in the game, about players (cofcofalsohankerchiefcofcof) being/getting hammered.

I was thinking that to myself while we were playing. If we're stupid enough to let you hog the thread, fine, but you're still spending too much time on a game. Maybe you should only join games where the GM enforces a daily posting quota?

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Won't help, I will just end up fitting the same content into fewer posts and spacing them out.

Then the posts become even less effective because they're walls. I never mastered doing more with less, and it's because I can't.

I try roleplaying, I've played under alts (rarely), and eventually, if I'm town, the same patterns emerge. I have to be outside of my wolf game, I have to find the scums, I have to stop townies from being lynched, I have to get people to see the correct answers, I have to keep checking in case my own answers are incorrect, I have to.... have to have to have to.

It's in my nature.

Logic has a nature, Xiahou has a nature. I used that to make reads on them that were accurate and unique, what others didn't see. We all have a nature. My nature is not something I can change, once the compulsion triggers.

The only way to stop it is to not start it.

I don't even care that this compulsion leads me to suspecting the lovers for the latter bit of the game. Don't care. Even if I lynch Csargo and Monty dies and I was half right and right enough to win and successful in my endeavours, I still drained my body and mind and put my health at risk over a game where you guess things at people. And for what?

What is the point?

I don't have to see to be able to know, even if I succeed, that's still not winning. I've started to become a bad player by my own definition of what a bad player is. Hence, I can't see the dead quicktopic or scum quicktopic or chat.

I know what's in there, I can take a wild guess.

It's not worth it to me, or anyone else, for me to keep this up. I let the game get to me. I can't keep doing that.

Hmmm. (I actually read that post). It seems that you lack the moderate amount of self-control that even I have. You're getting burned out and letting this get to you. For the record, I think that you began to overthink the game –this game, not necessarily the game in general, as I haven't been playing much myself this year. Yes, you really should drop it for the time being.

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Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

Won't help, I will just end up fitting the same content into fewer posts and spacing them out.

Then the posts become even less effective because they're walls. I never mastered doing more with less, and it's because I can't.

I try roleplaying, I've played under alts (rarely), and eventually, if I'm town, the same patterns emerge. I have to be outside of my wolf game, I have to find the scums, I have to stop townies from being lynched, I have to get people to see the correct answers, I have to keep checking in case my own answers are incorrect, I have to.... have to have to have to.

It's in my nature.

Logic has a nature, Xiahou has a nature. I used that to make reads on them that were accurate and unique, what others didn't see. We all have a nature. My nature is not something I can change, once the compulsion triggers.

The only way to stop it is to not start it.

I don't even care that this compulsion leads me to suspecting the lovers for the latter bit of the game. Don't care. Even if I lynch Csargo and Monty dies and I was half right and right enough to win and successful in my endeavours, I still drained my body and mind and put my health at risk over a game where you guess things at people. And for what?

What is the point?

I don't have to see to be able to know, even if I succeed, that's still not winning. I've started to become a bad player by my own definition of what a bad player is. Hence, I can't see the dead quicktopic or scum quicktopic or chat.

I know what's in there, I can take a wild guess.

It's not worth it to me, or anyone else, for me to keep this up. I let the game get to me. I can't keep doing that.

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My unsolicited observation: what you're describing are general personality or psychological issues that need to be addressed as such, outside the scope of the gaming community. IIRC you once mentioned being affected by bipolar disorder, and how this influenced your play, and sometimes detracted from your enjoyment.

It would be selfish of us to want you sticking around all for the sake of our amusement; admittedly you are right. You shouldn't return to Mafia until you feel you have managed to get your worst excessive compulsions under control, and that surviving another game past D1 won't cause you to spiral out in a destructive or guilt-inducing way. If you decide the community can play some role at any time, I think we will be here for you.

I hope you succeed and return. All the best to you and Sooh.

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Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

Won't help, I will just end up fitting the same content into fewer posts and spacing them out.

Then the posts become even less effective because they're walls. I never mastered doing more with less, and it's because I can't.

I try roleplaying, I've played under alts (rarely), and eventually, if I'm town, the same patterns emerge. I have to be outside of my wolf game, I have to find the scums, I have to stop townies from being lynched, I have to get people to see the correct answers, I have to keep checking in case my own answers are incorrect, I have to.... have to have to have to.

It's in my nature.

Logic has a nature, Xiahou has a nature. I used that to make reads on them that were accurate and unique, what others didn't see. We all have a nature. My nature is not something I can change, once the compulsion triggers.

The only way to stop it is to not start it.

I don't even care that this compulsion leads me to suspecting the lovers for the latter bit of the game. Don't care. Even if I lynch Csargo and Monty dies and I was half right and right enough to win and successful in my endeavours, I still drained my body and mind and put my health at risk over a game where you guess things at people. And for what?

What is the point?

I don't have to see to be able to know, even if I succeed, that's still not winning. I've started to become a bad player by my own definition of what a bad player is. Hence, I can't see the dead quicktopic or scum quicktopic or chat.

I know what's in there, I can take a wild guess.

It's not worth it to me, or anyone else, for me to keep this up. I let the game get to me. I can't keep doing that.

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Pardon my French, but Pizza you have to take a step back and say fuck that. It is a game and supposed to be fun. If it is not and instead hurting you or your life you need to ditch the bastard and let it dry on the rocks. Maybe one day a beautiful flower will grow from that carcass and it will be again something to enjoy, if not fuck that. Life is important, loved ones are important. Your own well being is important. Fuck that shit if it hurts you in any way. Im sure there arent a single coherent English sentence at any of the forementioned, but im sure you understand the meaning.