Chess - Game Thread [Concluded]

[El Barto]

My drunk reads are legendary.

This is what I was aiming about when I made an offhand comment, early in the game, about players (cofcofalsohankerchiefcofcof) being/getting hammered.

I got 800 posts and almost no sleep for a week in a guessing game. Time to put this habit down since I'm out of control.

I was thinking that to myself while we were playing. If we're stupid enough to let you hog the thread, fine, but you're still spending too much time on a game. Maybe you should only join games where the GM enforces a daily posting quota?

[Montmorency]

I hope we can help you maintain a healthy level of activity, next time.

I was thinking that to myself while we were playing. If we're stupid enough to let you hog the thread, fine, but you're still spending too much time on a game. Maybe you should only join games where the GM enforces a daily posting quota?

Limit number of posts by players during day (unlimited by night - or the reverse?)

[Askthepizzaguy]

This is what I was aiming about when I made an offhand comment, early in the game, about players (cofcofalsohankerchiefcofcof) being/getting hammered.

I was thinking that to myself while we were playing. If we're stupid enough to let you hog the thread, fine, but you're still spending too much time on a game. Maybe you should only join games where the GM enforces a daily posting quota?

Won't help, I will just end up fitting the same content into fewer posts and spacing them out.

Then the posts become even less effective because they're walls. I never mastered doing more with less, and it's because I can't.

I try roleplaying, I've played under alts (rarely), and eventually, if I'm town, the same patterns emerge. I have to be outside of my wolf game, I have to find the scums, I have to stop townies from being lynched, I have to get people to see the correct answers, I have to keep checking in case my own answers are incorrect, I have to.... have to have to have to.

It's in my nature.

Logic has a nature, Xiahou has a nature. I used that to make reads on them that were accurate and unique, what others didn't see. We all have a nature. My nature is not something I can change, once the compulsion triggers.

The only way to stop it is to not start it.

I don't even care that this compulsion leads me to suspecting the lovers for the latter bit of the game. Don't care. Even if I lynch Csargo and Monty dies and I was half right and right enough to win and successful in my endeavours, I still drained my body and mind and put my health at risk over a game where you guess things at people. And for what?

What is the point?

I don't have to see to be able to know, even if I succeed, that's still not winning. I've started to become a bad player by my own definition of what a bad player is. Hence, I can't see the dead quicktopic or scum quicktopic or chat.

I know what's in there, I can take a wild guess.

It's not worth it to me, or anyone else, for me to keep this up. I let the game get to me. I can't keep doing that.

[El Barto]

Hmmm. (I actually read that post). It seems that you lack the moderate amount of self-control that even I have. You're getting burned out and letting this get to you. For the record, I think that you began to overthink the game –this game, not necessarily the game in general, as I haven't been playing much myself this year. Yes, you really should drop it for the time being.

[Montmorency]

Won't help, I will just end up fitting the same content into fewer posts and spacing them out.

Then the posts become even less effective because they're walls. I never mastered doing more with less, and it's because I can't.

I try roleplaying, I've played under alts (rarely), and eventually, if I'm town, the same patterns emerge. I have to be outside of my wolf game, I have to find the scums, I have to stop townies from being lynched, I have to get people to see the correct answers, I have to keep checking in case my own answers are incorrect, I have to.... have to have to have to.

It's in my nature.

Logic has a nature, Xiahou has a nature. I used that to make reads on them that were accurate and unique, what others didn't see. We all have a nature. My nature is not something I can change, once the compulsion triggers.

The only way to stop it is to not start it.

I don't even care that this compulsion leads me to suspecting the lovers for the latter bit of the game. Don't care. Even if I lynch Csargo and Monty dies and I was half right and right enough to win and successful in my endeavours, I still drained my body and mind and put my health at risk over a game where you guess things at people. And for what?

What is the point?

I don't have to see to be able to know, even if I succeed, that's still not winning. I've started to become a bad player by my own definition of what a bad player is. Hence, I can't see the dead quicktopic or scum quicktopic or chat.

I know what's in there, I can take a wild guess.

It's not worth it to me, or anyone else, for me to keep this up. I let the game get to me. I can't keep doing that.

My unsolicited observation: what you're describing are general personality or psychological issues that need to be addressed as such, outside the scope of the gaming community. IIRC you once mentioned being affected by bipolar disorder, and how this influenced your play, and sometimes detracted from your enjoyment.

It would be selfish of us to want you sticking around all for the sake of our amusement; admittedly you are right. You shouldn't return to Mafia until you feel you have managed to get your worst excessive compulsions under control, and that surviving another game past D1 won't cause you to spiral out in a destructive or guilt-inducing way. If you decide the community can play some role at any time, I think we will be here for you.

I hope you succeed and return. All the best to you and Sooh.

[Kagemusha]

Won't help, I will just end up fitting the same content into fewer posts and spacing them out.

Then the posts become even less effective because they're walls. I never mastered doing more with less, and it's because I can't.

I try roleplaying, I've played under alts (rarely), and eventually, if I'm town, the same patterns emerge. I have to be outside of my wolf game, I have to find the scums, I have to stop townies from being lynched, I have to get people to see the correct answers, I have to keep checking in case my own answers are incorrect, I have to.... have to have to have to.

It's in my nature.

Logic has a nature, Xiahou has a nature. I used that to make reads on them that were accurate and unique, what others didn't see. We all have a nature. My nature is not something I can change, once the compulsion triggers.

The only way to stop it is to not start it.

I don't even care that this compulsion leads me to suspecting the lovers for the latter bit of the game. Don't care. Even if I lynch Csargo and Monty dies and I was half right and right enough to win and successful in my endeavours, I still drained my body and mind and put my health at risk over a game where you guess things at people. And for what?

What is the point?

I don't have to see to be able to know, even if I succeed, that's still not winning. I've started to become a bad player by my own definition of what a bad player is. Hence, I can't see the dead quicktopic or scum quicktopic or chat.

I know what's in there, I can take a wild guess.

It's not worth it to me, or anyone else, for me to keep this up. I let the game get to me. I can't keep doing that.

Pardon my French, but Pizza you have to take a step back and say fuck that. It is a game and supposed to be fun. If it is not and instead hurting you or your life you need to ditch the bastard and let it dry on the rocks. Maybe one day a beautiful flower will grow from that carcass and it will be again something to enjoy, if not fuck that. Life is important, loved ones are important. Your own well being is important. Fuck that shit if it hurts you in any way. Im sure there arent a single coherent English sentence at any of the forementioned, but im sure you understand the meaning.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I think a big part of it is that I've never been all that satisfied with my town game.

I have nothing left to prove as a mafioso. But my town game is maybe 50/50, as most people's town game is when they're over 100 games. You don't get significantly higher than that because it is a team game.

But this year in particular I've been working on it.

In the past 3 games, on here and on MTGS, I've caught 3 wolves in each game. That's 9 wolves in 3 games. But I didn't win either of the first two games I am mentioning here, because one got away.

And here. One got away. But it was within my power to make it happen, if I figured it out and convinced the correct people, because there might have been doc protection on me, leading the scums to shoot away. The other games, I died after finding a scum and pointing at the other two.

This was the game where I was gonna actually finish a game out. I was trying to prove something to myself, that my town game was not shit.

But even at the end, if I had gotten what I wanted and the final scum died, once that compulsion was over and done with, I'd still be here in this same situation.

It has to be okay to not catch every scum, and for me this game, it was not okay. I needed to get them all or I was a worthless player, and my town game was never going to be any good at all.

And I never held anyone else to such standards in all my years of playing mafia.

As recently cited to someone else about being a good player, because they thought they were not good enough to play on MU:

What makes a good werewolf player?

I have noticed over the years that players seem to be under the mistaken impression that they need to win oodles of games and/or win as werewolf and/or lynch all the scums as villager and/or never lynch villagers as villager in order to be a decent player.

I think I touched on this a bit before my first game here on this forum.

Okay, let us imagine this ideal werewolf player. They only accuse the wolves as villager, they never accuse villagers as villager, and they always win as wolf. Somehow. They win 90 percent of the games they play. They've been playing for 10 years.

Now let us imagine they have no further redeeming or endearing qualities. They don't really converse with their fellow players, they have no sense of humor, they think little of everyone else's earnest efforts, and they take the game personally. They also drop from games for no reason without explanation.

Is this person a good werewolf player?

No.

They might be skilled, but they aren't a good player.

A good player, let us imagine him or her for a second. The ideal good werewolf player.

They are wrong sometimes and right sometimes. (That's pretty much everyone.)
They want to share the game experience with other players, and get involved by conversing with the rest of the players, on their team or not.
They have a sense of humor or can appreciate others' attempts at humor.
They don't take it personally if you're wrong about them, or lose the game for their team.
They sign up for games only if they truly intend to give it their best effort.
They notify game hosts when they need to drop, with a reason why, preferably.
They are at least aware of the vote tally when one has been posted, and aware of when the round ends, and try to make decisions that help their team.

And that's it.

They don't need to be particularly good at accusing anyone. They don't need to be accurate. They don't need to be a leader, or extremely talkative.

It is, at the last, a guessing game between friends, a casual experience. Some really put in the effort and try to find all the wolves themselves, but that is not a requirement.

If you show up and try, and you keep things in perspective, and you notify game hosts when you can't play anymore, and it's not an every game thing where you need to drop out, then you are a good player.

I'd rather play with 20 good players than one "skilled" player who has no other redeeming qualities.

So please, take that to heart.

And keep it in mind if I kinda suck out loud one game. LOL

But this is the problem. I broke my own rule. I was basically becoming the wannabe skilled player with no other redeeming qualities. Harmful to my own enjoyment of the game and that of others.

That's really why I am stepping away.

I am holding myself to a double standard. I've always said it's okay for others to guess wrong, but I badly broke that rule this game, for myself.

[Montmorency]

Lord knows I myself expose a facet of the 'super-serious, anti-teamplay' drive, where I just know that with

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

A LITTLE MORE

power, I can pool the townies' efforts together, overwhelm the scums, and save everyone - even if I have to kill most of them to do it. All resistance must be quelched at any cost, else they doom us all.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

DOOM US ALL

As the Russian goes, "The refuser will be neutralized."

...

So, what made you read me so towny this game?

[Askthepizzaguy]

So, what made you read me so towny this game?

The part that finally convinced me, despite the fact that I had been pushing you down into the POE one day, on the 6 versus 3 correct solve I did (and wandered away from...)

After you claimed lover and it was clear we weren't lynching you ever, you spent hours doing analysis including that on potentially scum-reading your lover partner. Which, if I called your bluff and insisted we lynch, you lose.

You didn't have to do any of that, you'd have likely won with less. So you cleared the hurdle by the height of satellites in orbit around Earth.

If you hadn't done that on that day, then I would have had you and Csargo about equal and made more of an effort to convince him to lynch you, and vice-versa, as opposed to only trying to convince you to lynch him.

I can cite the post(s) in question, but I already have when I was trying to convince you to lynch him. When you put Csargo's behavior as potentially villainous many times, I thought you don't do that unless you're town.

That was when you finally got really out of the way of my suspicions. Had you not done that things may have gone differently.

[Montmorency]

The part that finally convinced me, despite the fact that I had been pushing you down into the POE one day, on the 6 versus 3 correct solve I did (and wandered away from...)

After you claimed lover and it was clear we weren't lynching you ever, you spent hours doing analysis including that on potentially scum-reading your lover partner. Which, if I called your bluff and insisted we lynch, you lose.

You didn't have to do any of that, you'd have likely won with less. So you cleared the hurdle by the height of satellites in orbit around Earth.

If you hadn't done that on that day, then I would have had you and Csargo about equal and made more of an effort to convince him to lynch you, and vice-versa, as opposed to only trying to convince you to lynch him.

I can cite the post(s) in question, but I already have when I was trying to convince you to lynch him. When you put Csargo's behavior as potentially villainous many times, I thought you don't do that unless you're town.

That was when you finally got really out of the way of my suspicions. Had you not done that things may have gone differently.

I said this a lot in the chat (to myself), but I really did want to vote Csargo at several junctures. You had a great case, even if it was misguided. Before the time when doing so would actually have amounted to throwing the game against my team - this was when I was still treated the game as unwinnable - I thought to myself how great it would make you feel, if you managed to convince me to vote Csargo and thereby lose the game. 'Pizza's so good he can convince a mugger to hand him a 20, a supervisor to endorse his promotion over them, and final scum to lynch themselves!' Same thing with Slaan, though I felt like I had to push back because the case was ultimately too ambitious turning on small points.

How could Town Monty resist the lure of such a detailed case against Classic Org Lurk-Scum Archetype? Really only the network impulse. If I'd had to claim D4 or earlier, I probably also wouldn't have been able to justify avoiding pro-Town self-sacrifice in the face of such good casework.


How about earlier in the game, D1 through Manasi's lynch? Something about the way I was interacting with Zack, among other things, led you to publicly declare an explicit townread on me.

[Kagemusha]

Pizza self reflection tells me you are healthy. Look at me back in the day i was sort of good player, when mafia was a new thing here at Org. Both as mafia and town. If i remember right im still undefeated in GH´s vanilla mafia´s as scum and i also saved the town as townie in the same games once or twice.

Looking at retrospect i peaked at Capo II at 2008 when i was able to unite the rivaling mafia factions in order to defeat the town, with daring united push of scum, but at the same time i became so happy with myself that i forgot what was the idea of the game: To win. I forgot that and lost with a grand bang of course, but still lost. From there on my mafia game has been a downward spiral of 9 years. Mostly because i always told myself how great i am, while accusing this and that for my blunders. Loosing energy to all kinds of nonsense and never really looking it from outside perspective and keeping it simple.

I remember when you appeared to the games here in Org and for some time i was pretty much obsessed with you, mostly in negative way as you seemed to be all over the place, which was yet another excuse to not self reflect for me. Why i could not cope with this talkative style of play? Because i did not bother to lay down the effort. My opinion about you though changed at point when we played together as scum in a vampire game, which name eludes me now. At that point i came to realize how brilliant and clear sighted you were behind all that talk and have appreciated you ever since.

Still no matter what i just kept getting worse and worse in this game, more frustrated i got, worse i got and in the end in my last games as scum or townie i was lynched at first rounds or i simply lost interest and got Wogged.

Thankfully in the end i got so busy in real life, having to run a company for couple years now and getting married last fall. I decided i did not need the stress of sucking at this game anymore. During this hiatus i came to understand how important stuff this really is and how big deal these games are... That is why i decided to try again and now without any pressure anymore this was actually fun and im sure il take another jab at the game again. How much i suck at this for me is a no concern anymore as long it will be fun.

[Askthepizzaguy]

My opinion about you though changed at point when we played together as scum in a vampire game, which name eludes me now.

Crazed rabbit's The Shadow Fort, one of the org's best flavorful games of all time.

[Montmorency]

My opinion about you though changed at point when we played together as scum in a vampire game, which name eludes me now. At that point i came to realize how brilliant and clear sighted you were behind all that talk and have appreciated you ever since.:

Seems like you had another vampire game, Andres' Daggers in the Night in 2010. It was the first Mafia game I ever spectated, a year before I played my first (online). Trademark ORG complexity and flavor. In those times, the post count seemed tremendous. Now I can't even imagine what a 40-player D1 would look like.