Representative Democracy [Concluded]

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Originally Posted by Zack

wtf are you talking about

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This. Aggressive and confrontational. Dismissive and ridiculing.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticising the persona. I enjoy it.

It's just that I've seen you use it as scum. Like in that championship heat last year or that game on CFC where we were scum together.

What I'm trying to do here is see something more. Something you can't fake.

honestly can't think of a response to that post that isn't dismissive

Zack, why did you think Cuth was a wolf?

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Originally Posted by Monstrbro

Zack, why did you think Cuth was a wolf?

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his early game was wolfy for him specifically and i never saw anything that convinced me otherwise

he's dead so if you want more detailed reads on a dead guy you can read my posts™

No soft claim here. I made it pretty clear that we would deal with cuth and barto. I thought for sure we would lynch cuth and I'd kill barto but it worked out the other way around. It was also why I was asking who peoples second suspect was...

Going back through D3 I see Zack being very firm on Barto being scum, BSmith breadcrumbing Vig on #2759/2760, Monstr asked me pointed questions in a post I completely missed (sorry!), and Monty throwing shade on Monstr over his Barto pushes on D2/D3.

In hindsight, Montmorency's repeated argument for lynching Cuth regardless of whether he was the scummiest should have bothered me more than it did. Even if you accept that he'd be on the block until lynched (not a guarantee IMO - I was starting to think he looked better by EoD3) you should try to lynch the guy you think is a wolf. Going for Cuth like that is an attempt to duck responsibility for a possible town flip.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

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Originally Posted by BSmith

Or is there another consensus target that would benefit being removed from the game?

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Originally Posted by BSmith

My reads are pretty much the same as what I posted the other day. I don't have a full list all worked out, nor will I as I don't have the time and am mainly on mobile. I'll be at work Thursday/Friday this week amd should have some keyboard time then.

Outside of cuth or barto, who would you eliminate if you had the opportunity?

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Originally Posted by BSmith

I dont need to answer that question for myself. :clown:

As for Fenn and Schema... I dont have a lean either way to be honest. Fenn seems much more active than Csargo, but otherwise their posts have gotten lost in all the noise for me.

Anyone able to do a tally for me? I have no sense of how the lynch is stacking up and who the alternatives/runners up might be.

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not that i didn't believe your claim but yeah that's a true claim 99% of the time

dunno why you would claim though

X-Post with BSmith. He almost has to be town if not counterclaimed, and maybe even if so.

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Originally Posted by BSmith

No soft claim here. I made it pretty clear that we would deal with cuth and barto. I thought for sure we would lynch cuth and I'd kill barto but it worked out the other way around. It was also why I was asking who peoples second suspect was...

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Where are your reads right now?

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Originally Posted by Fenn

Let me get back to you on that. First thoughts without rereading are that Zack maybe improves a little from wanting to lynch Barto in addition to Cuth (who knows if he would heave kept that up) and being the target of Barto's accusations, Visor slides a little with his dicetosser vote - not weighing in on Cuth vs Barto - and Monty, idk.

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Take your time, have a read, and get back to me with something more substantial on each of them. :bow:

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Originally Posted by Zack

I'd probably need to re-read which I don't feel like doing right now, before giving a definitive read. From what little I saw when digging up that quote to throw in your face, you halfheartedly had Barto in your POE without really talking about him, choosing instead to tunnel me. Which isn't a good look.

Didn't seem to care before now.

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Originally Posted by Winston Hughes

More evasion, plus a hint of shade for good measure.

I'm really trying to townread you here, Zack, but you're just giving me nothing.

I've been on your case for ages, so how the hell don't you have any kind of read on me for tone or anything?

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Originally Posted by Fenn

Let me get back to you on that. First thoughts without rereading are that Zack maybe improves a little from wanting to lynch Barto in addition to Cuth (who knows if he would heave kept that up) and being the target of Barto's accusations, Visor slides a little with his dicetosser vote - not weighing in on Cuth vs Barto - and Monty, idk.

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Originally Posted by Winston Hughes

Take your time, have a read, and get back to me with something more substantial on each of them. :bow:

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LOL

Vote: Winston Hughes

:P Barto! GG Renata, thanks for being a rock, Cuth hi5 for effort under pressure <3

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Originally Posted by Zack

obviously cass is town with cuth's flip

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o/

Atheotes claims the actual lynch of Barto though. Not sure what to make of that at present.

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Originally Posted by Monstrbro

I would say visor should be catching a wolf or dying soon but his tone d1 was really good so I'm willing to let our differences on cuth slide

Winston is lock clear from Barto spew, less than 5% of the time that's w/w omgus from Barto

Zack looks good from Barto too I think, but I haven't done my reiso of Barto yet this is all just from memory

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Re-reading, but of all Visor's D1 stuff I found the early/OTT Cuth push worst tone-wise? And IMO Visor moving off both wagons here to Dice looks pretty bad?

WRT Barto I think it's better to look at how other players progressed on him. AoRN I'm not trusting Winston's progression off Barto onto Zack.

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Originally Posted by Monstrbro

Cass_

Because I mean well lol

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Gotta redraw Districts anyway. Ideas on where you want to go?

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

I think I should focus on discovery from now on.

Please refer to following statement for D4 and possibly beyond:

A. One of Zack and Visor will be scum.
B. One of Al Sipsclar and Winston will be scum.
C. One of Fenn and Schema will be scum.

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Flesh these out please?
Who do you think's most likely in each pair, and why?

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Originally Posted by Zack

I assume Cuth was a vig shot, no way scum kill him

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That was the first thing I thought. Scum killing him would be such a waste from their perspective.

I thought visor's d1 was really pure

iirc he also talked about thinking all of the d1 candidates (chox/barto/cuth) were scum, should probably look into that

don't want to lynch him

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Originally Posted by Fenn

Going back through D3 I see Zack being very firm on Barto being scum, BSmith breadcrumbing Vig on #2759/2760, Monstr asked me pointed questions in a post I completely missed (sorry!), and Monty throwing shade on Monstr over his Barto pushes on D2/D3.

In hindsight, Montmorency's repeated argument for lynching Cuth regardless of whether he was the scummiest should have bothered me more than it did. Even if you accept that he'd be on the block until lynched (not a guarantee IMO - I was starting to think he looked better by EoD3) you should try to lynch the guy you think is a wolf. Going for Cuth like that is an attempt to duck responsibility for a possible town flip.

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But I didn't shade Monstr for Barto pushes, the opposite if anything. Monstr's actions hence directly contradicted the available case for a partnership, which I didn't uphold outside the moment where the thread got acrimonious.

You argued that Cuth should be lynched before Barto, for the record.

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Originally Posted by Cass

Flesh these out please?
Who do you think's most likely in each pair, and why?

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Not sure I will ever be able to. Willing to try ISO on Winston.

Ride or die Fenn-Winston-Visor.

14 players - 3 districts. Recommend you, Monstr, and atheotes in separate districts: Rep candidates.

Vote: Winston

Try to draw the districts in a way that all districts will have a good townie rep and also having people who will actually elect that person

Monty why would you not think BSmith should be a rep

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Originally Posted by Zack

I thought visor's d1 was really pure

iirc he also talked about thinking all of the d1 candidates (chox/barto/cuth) were scum, should probably look into that

don't want to lynch him

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Theories on GH/Cuth/Chox/Bart - two-for-two with one already flipped - don't necessarily look great. Works well enough as camo.

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Originally Posted by Zack

Monty why would you not think BSmith should be a rep

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I only choose three, and those are the best candidates. BSmith, dice, and Jabbz can sub in I suppose, but as I already described earlier Cass, atheotes, and Monstr are the last elites standing.

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

Theories on GH/Cuth/Chox/Bart - two-for-two with one already flipped - don't necessarily look great. Works well enough as camo.

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2/4 doesn't look good? seems like impossible standards

his style isn't to bus anyways, though with how chox and tak were playing i wouldn't rule bussing out

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Originally Posted by Zack

2/4 doesn't look good? seems like impossible standards

his style isn't to bus anyways, though with how chox and tak were playing i wouldn't rule bussing out

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Let me be more precise. One scum is dead, so offering a trio of candidates (of whom one later flips scum, and the others town) is not particularly clearing. Whether it's scummy has to depend on other Deep-Wolf factors.

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Originally Posted by Zack

LOL

Vote: Winston Hughes

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What, the inconsistency?

The fact that I've called you evasive for failing to give a read on me, but I've given Fenn a friendly nudge for giving only superficial reads on the people I asked him about?

The difference is that I've spent half the game poking you, and you have extensive knowledge of my meta, whereas Fenn joined the game late, and (afaik) has no meta on the players in question.

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Originally Posted by Zack

his early game was wolfy for him specifically and i never saw anything that convinced me otherwise

he's dead so if you want more detailed reads on a dead guy you can read my posts™

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Bold - afaict one of your main reasons was his push at Visor, which he, specifically, has done as Town?

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Originally Posted by Cass_

Bold - afaict one of your main reasons was his push at Visor, which he, specifically, has done as Town?

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pushing a specific person isn't alignment indicative in itself, it's how you do it. obviously.

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Originally Posted by Zack

pushing a specific person isn't alignment indicative in itself, it's how you do it. obviously.

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Ok. Work with me here. What was it about Cuth's early play that was specifically wolfy for him iyo?

Like I said to someone else, I already talked about this in the thread. If you want my reads on a dead guy, go find them. I'm not wasting my time on such a pointless inquiry.

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Originally Posted by Cass_

AoRN I'm not trusting Winston's progression off Barto onto Zack.

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I'm not progressing off Barto onto Zack. Barto's flip makes Zack look townier.

Zack's responses to me are the reason I'm still unable to escape the tunnel, try as I might.

I'm fully aware of the dangers of confirmation bias, and I am doing my best not to fall into that trap, which is why I'm not straight scumreading Zack for his evasion when I asked for his read on me. It's quite possible that I'm barking up the wrong tree, and it's simply Zack's personality that is tripping my scumdar.

But what I keep coming back to is that Zack is being way more touchy about people suspecting him - and way less willing to answer potentially revealing questions - than he ought to be as town.

Even if dice is a wolf, genuine apology to the rest of the village for me not voting Barto even though I thought he was a wolf. It's been a longstanding flaw of my town game that I tag someone as a wolf and then proceed to ignore them and look for other wolves instead of killing them.

So ya, apologies.

Cuth dying is okay, though after eb is confirmed his eod1 was probably too out of place to be a wolf (no point in what he did given wagons)

I do feel a little bit or pride that I didn't vote cuth though

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Originally Posted by Winston Hughes

I'm not progressing off Barto onto Zack. Barto's flip makes Zack look townier.

Zack's responses to me are the reason I'm still unable to escape the tunnel, try as I might.

I'm fully aware of the dangers of confirmation bias, and I am doing my best not to fall into that trap, which is why I'm not straight scumreading Zack for his evasion when I asked for his read on me. It's quite possible that I'm barking up the wrong tree, and it's simply Zack's personality that is tripping my scumdar.

But what I keep coming back to is that Zack is being way more touchy about people suspecting him - and way less willing to answer potentially revealing questions - than he ought to be as town.

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I get you on the Zack being touchy etc and it bugs me too/It's not an attitude that I ever find helpful for Town.

By not trusting your progression off Barto onto Zack, I mean D1 -> D2 though, where you voted Barto off the bat D1 and then moved off onto Zack D2. Continued to push Zack for 'bad boy' behaviour over Barto D3.

Zack has displayed that attitude previously as Town, his posting style and attitude changed, nothing Barto added to the thread was clearing, but you ?gave Barto the benefit of the doubt over Zack.

You say you don't hate the attitude, have you seen Zack play this way as Town?