Poll: scale the difficulty of each campaign

Hello,

Please rate the campaigns by order of difficulty and give your opinion on what could be done to make it more friendly to the average player.

From hardest to easiest:

1. Hayasdan
> possible fix: adding basic mines building in all caucasus city and upping population, making core relationship with seleucid "allies"
2. Saba
> adding basic mines building in meroe, tamane and carna, a fleetport in homna, making core relationships with seleucid/ptole "ally"
3. Saka
> not much to do, rush or die
4. Pahlava
> Adding mines in cities bordering the caspian sea, making the reformed parthian gov a lvl 1 native MIC
5. Sauromatae
> just like saka, not much to do

All the factions listed after that don't suffer any severe problem and would not require a tweak.

6. Pontus
7. Getai
8. Casse
9. Sweboz
10. Arverni
11. Aedui
12. Baktria

The easy factions:

13. Seleucid
14. Lusotanian
15. Greeks
16. Epirus
17. Macedon
18. Ptolemaioi
19. Carthage
20. Romani

Having "hard" factions is entirely a good thing IMO. That way it allows a player to progress through the game and encourages replayability.

Having said that I didnt find either Saba or Sauromatae to be particularly difficult. Saba you get all the time in the world to subdue arabia, and finances are pretty strong. The hard part is that beating the ptolies on the battlefield requires different tactics to most factions as they have no "obvious" way to kill phalanxes. Also they do tend to suffer high casualties so invading far from your homeland without access to reinforcements isnt straightforward. But overall you have a secure and easily defendable position, its just expansion thats tricky.

With the sauros, the money part is tough, but using horse archers and one FM its easy as hell to win almost every battle with extremely low casualties. Taking on the other nomads is a little tougher though.

I suspect many people might put Pontus in the tough category also. But certainly no-one needs a "fix" IMO.

To me every faction gives you a different experience.
What ruins the game is the tendency of the AI to attack the player regardless the diplomatic relations. But I believe that the M2TW system will "fix" that.
In RTW what's missing is the genuine alliance...

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Originally Posted by Cambyses

Having "hard" factions is entirely a good thing IMO. That way it allows a player to progress through the game and encourages replayability.

Having said that I didnt find either Saba or Sauromatae to be particularly difficult. Saba you get all the time in the world to subdue arabia, and finances are pretty strong. The hard part is that beating the ptolies on the battlefield requires different tactics to most factions as they have no "obvious" way to kill phalanxes. Also they do tend to suffer high casualties so invading far from your homeland without access to reinforcements isnt straightforward. But overall you have a secure and easily defendable position, its just expansion thats tricky.

With the sauros, the money part is tough, but using horse archers and one FM its easy as hell to win almost every battle with extremely low casualties. Taking on the other nomads is a little tougher though.

I suspect many people might put Pontus in the tough category also. But certainly no-one needs a "fix" IMO.

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Sure hard campaigns are good, and pontus is hard. But possible, because you can funnel the AI into specific cities and hold them here.
Arguably, you can theorically conquer the world with HA factions with zero casualties, and players have done that (or, they claim they have without cheating anyway). Altho my experience is that a quickly stretched front without a developped military chain eventually leads to not enough horse archers remaining and cities depleting of their pop.

But hayasdan... how can you realistically complete this campaign with low population cities, no mines, and the seleucid attacking you on 3 fronts, and pontus joigning the party as soon as they can?
Saba... i've been trying several strategic campaign (not taking carna to avoid early wars, rushing for ptolemais theron/elephants) and eventually saba doenst make enough money to counter the stack spam from memphis/alexandria. Sure, you can beat a few half assed stacks of ptollies with elite units (but it's goddan hard), but you cannot beat the spam.

And as Arjos says, if the AI didn't permanently break alliances to ruin the player life, no campaign would be difficult anyway.

hell, in one of my pahlava attemps, the seleucid was litterally emptying the west and bringing all their stacks to me at some point (i was up to persepolis and sacked susa/ekbatana) - wasn't making enough money to rebuild so had to quit.

Also with M2TW the whole "control the town square for 3 minutes" is out, along with the control of the gateway. This would make the RTW's hard campaings into really impossible ones, if it wasn't for the new diplomacy...

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Originally Posted by Arjos

Also with M2TW the whole "control the town square for 3 minutes" is out, along with the control of the gateway. This would make the RTW's hard campaings into really impossible ones, if it wasn't for the new diplomacy...

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eh? You control the town centre in M2 as well, just the same as in R. But now u can also do it when the enemy still has some guys left alive in the square, so that you dont need to kill every last warrior. Provided that you have a huge numerical advantage. AFAIK some other mods have fiddled with this feature a bit, but its definitely still there.

Controlling gates (and towers) is also much improved in M2 IMO. Im afraid I dont see how this will make the campaign harder at all. If anything the free upkeep units and multiple recruitment/turn will make things quite a bit simpler (in defence at least).

Uhm... Maybe someone had it modded out (I don't play vanilla XD)
About the gateway, I meant that even if you take control of it, the defender can still enter, and you can't enter it at leat you destroy the gate...

Hayasdan is possible to win wtihout cheating, but it's not very fun at all without force diplomacy

umm... I've played hayasdan before, no rush, no cheat (unless toggle_fow), and I got entire asia minor in 223 BC. That's was on VH/M, just remember you have caucasian archers!!!

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Originally Posted by Sonic

have caucasian archers!!!

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Exactly, but a whole army of "Sun Shaders" isn't enjoyable nor accurate XD

hell, in one of my pahlava attemps, the seleucid was litterally emptying the west and bringing all their stacks to me at some point (i was up to persepolis and sacked susa/ekbatana) - wasn't making enough money to rebuild so had to quit.[/QUOTE]

In persepolis, destroy the tomb, it will get you 10000, and try this: go ahead with all your horse archers you can quickly get, attack, spend all your arrows, then retreat if you are in a serious situation. I currently play with pahlava on VH/M, AS isn't posing that much of a threat. Now, i am a rusher, but picking lone squads and raiding pretty much does the job. I only once lost a city, and took it back the next turn. it is winter 268bc, and i am at susa, and The Gray Death is on the way to it's own death. Baktria is still far from hostilities, and Sakas are too busy dealing with two AS provinces i left as a buffer to them. Now, with AS sufficiently weakened, i turn to baktria and it's mines. Pahlava is on a steady way of becoming my favorite faction... And for hayasdan, i think it is hardest. I played it once, but i really was pretty bad back then. I should try it again. Pontos isn't that hard, Nomads in generall are the hard ones, because you have to preserve your armies (or army, with sakae i gather one army and roll). Any faction that gives you a lot of infantry and places you far from nomads, is generally easy. And yes, breaking alliances is what keeps the campaign alive, i agree.

I think to a certain extent people tend to underestimate the difficulty of the Romani campaign. They have a good starting position, stable economy and good troops, but as the Romani you have to conquer a LOT of land, which makes for a grueling campaign. Plus, once you run into the Yellow Fever or Silver Death, reinforcing provinces becomes very difficult when they're half-way across the map. I wouldn't say the Romani are as hard as Pontos, Pahlava or Hayasdan, but I just thought I'd put in a good word for them. -M

Maybe it is if you want to end it as fast as possible.
The roman campaign is the second one I played till 14 AD (fulfilling the victory conditions) and I had to face the yellow death, it happened that I had to fight something like 3-4 major battles in a sigle turn for three times, but it wasn't anything special. I was facing also several Agema phalanxes...
But as I said I don't feel like there are hard ones and easy ones, everyone is unique...

Actually, trying to end it as quickly as possible would make it easier - hence why blitzing is frowned upon by some. I've played the Romani twice. My first game lasted until 30 BCE and my second game lasted until around 110 BCE. I'm just trying to point out that the Romani present their own unique set of challenges, which I think is pretty similar to your point. -M

Absolutely...
By quickly being more difficult, I intended using the polybian troops instead of marian, 'cos of the smaller AoR ^^

1. Pontos - starting army is big, but severely lacks assault troops ( -> hire a unit of Enoci Curoas, you really won't regret it). Also a very vulnerable position.
2. Hayasdan - pretty similar, with a weaker army but more versatile units.
3. Sauromatae - highly useful army, but no money. Also the weakest economy in the game and bugged campaign.


Unlike some other mods and games, all faction campaigns in EB are entirely possible to win. Once you got behind EB gameplay, even the hardest factions aren't too difficult.
With Lusotannan, Swêboz, Saka, and Sauromatae you have to blitz like mad unless you want to disband the starting army.

Can't tell which is the hardest. I've made a succesfull campaigns with Hayasdan (where I remade the persian empire), conquered egypt and India with Saba and conquered Italy with the Sauromatae. The hardest campaign I had was an Arverni game actually, my first 1.x campaign. But that was because of roleplaying rather than the campaign.

Saka & Pahlava I tweaked and modded lots of things but for them there is no second option than offence is best defence.
If you have not much experience on cavalry warfare with horse archers which needs time consuming micromanaged battles, do not try them :laugh4:
I hate blitzing but my eternal enemy AS does not give up sending full stacks against me until I destroy her.
For me it is very easy to play with them because "I know myself and my enemy very well" and "I never attack strong points of my enemy while their weaknesses is waiting for me." :book:

Hayastan is a hard faction? Maybe on VH/VH, but on H/M is pretty easy even without rushing. The same for Saka and Sauromatae.

NB: I'm playing my own minimod where all the spearmen have -4 attack. But I think it doesn't make any difference in this case

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Originally Posted by Skuda

Hayastan is a hard faction? Maybe on VH/VH, but on H/M is pretty easy even without rushing. The same for Saka and Sauromatae.

NB: I'm playing my own minimod where all the spearmen have -4 attack. But I think it doesn't make any difference in this case

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What?:inquisitive::inquisitive::inquisitive:
If you dont rush wih Saka you must wait like 40 turns to make money, even more with sauromatae and hayasdan is hell if the seleucs decide to atack you.
It isnt impossible (I have never seen the pc beat me^^), but it is tedious as hell fighting stakc after stack.


Anyway I hate playing all the rush or die factions, because one of the funny parts of EB is building your cities to economical greatness, which is nearly impossible the first 100turns with these factions.
The only exception beeing the lusotans, which are easy to manage after you conquer one or two settlements.

Anyway if this were Vanilla you would give you a*** handed to you if you had like 10 levy units and you were atacked by a fullstack of elite infantry and cavallery.:book:
Ebs high defense and moral system makes for intense battles, but I think its broken, when it comes to horse archers. They werent the dominant force in EBs Timeframe, but in EB they are the strongest units.

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Originally Posted by Skuda

Hayastan is a hard faction? Maybe on VH/VH, but on H/M is pretty easy even without rushing. The same for Saka and Sauromatae.

NB: I'm playing my own minimod where all the spearmen have -4 attack. But I think it doesn't make any difference in this case

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So what's your strategy with hayasdan? How do you cope with AS relentless attacks?

Honestly, I played two campaing (not finished as i got bored) with Saka and Sauromate (as a rider myself, I've a weakness for cav. based armies!!!) and I don't get why people say it's so diffivult. with saka. the first few turns are tricky, but when you get out of the red in your finances, the game's over! (meaning, you literally can kick the ass of anybody! I mean, their bodyguard, like sauromates, are literally german tiger tanks that came down from world WWII (3 FM alone can stand their own against "almost" anything). the only real danger when playing one of those two are the other (Sauro when you play Saka and vice versa). I played both on hard and well... with sauromates, go west and you can eat getai and hellenes for breakfest, go south with Saka!

In any cases, they're not the hardest faction I played! (well, it's only a personal experiance, I'm not saying they're "easy" factions, far from that, new commers would probably be discouraged if they tried Saka first!)

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Originally Posted by siegfriedfr

So what's your strategy with hayasdan? How do you cope with AS relentless attacks?

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You mean, Ptolemies? ;) Together with Pahlava they smashed AS to splinters and I even had to save them conquering in one campaign with my faction heir whole Mesopotamia and then giving it to Seleucids back.

Now I'm holding against Ptolemaioi. It's not very hard if you have Karkathiokerta. It's a perfect city for sallying because it's located on the hill and two of its walls are situated just over the steep slopes (and enemies always attack from these two directions). I keep strong garrison here with 4 units Eastern slingers and 4 HAs (Armenian and Scythian), some infantry and FM. I've had at least half dozen heroic victories here and attackers just have no chance. Call it cheating if you like ;)

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Originally Posted by seienchin

What?:inquisitive::inquisitive::inquisitive:
If you dont rush wih Saka you must wait like 40 turns to make money, even more with sauromatae and hayasdan is hell if the seleucs decide to atack you.
It isnt impossible (I have never seen the pc beat me^^), but it is tedious as hell fighting stakc after stack.

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Of course I conquer 5-6 provinces for Saka in first turns (for Armenia you need to to have no more then 3 to have a strong and stable economy). But then you can sit back and build up or raid your enemies' cities with army of HAs :)

I really cannot wait for EB2, The AI in M2 seems to be less hellbent on destroying the player.

The Hai game is meant to be hard. In history they failed. Admittedly they lasted for a while but still went in the end. Thats what I like so much about this mod, if I want to change history I have a big uphill battle to fight. Especially considering I am too lazy to be very 'gamey' (or strategic) with my tactics. I tend to make a big line of dudes and charge the enemy and hope that enough of my guys come out the other side still alive. Tends to work most times, at least I am a good player on the macro campaign, I just suck at micro control.

Man, I am gonna go play a game of them now. Thanks for the inspiration guys.

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Originally Posted by siegfriedfr

But hayasdan... how can you realistically complete this campaign with low population cities, no mines, and the seleucid attacking you on 3 fronts, and pontus joigning the party as soon as they can?

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Been there, done that.

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Originally Posted by Olaf The Great

Hayasdan is possible to win wtihout cheating, but it's not very fun at all without force diplomacy

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I find it to be one of the most fun campaigns, and I don't even use FD (I find FD boring).

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Originally Posted by Arjos

Exactly, but a whole army of "Sun Shaders" isn't enjoyable nor accurate XD

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It's accurate enough if you're referring to the Hye, and it certainly isn't enjoyable watching people die unless you're a sadist. Indeed.

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Originally Posted by siegfriedfr

So what's your strategy with hayasdan? How do you cope with AS relentless attacks?

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You don't cope with the Seleukid attacks, you counter-attack. Cope implies a defensive posture. The turtle's shell will eventually crack. Come out of the shell and blow with your hammer where it hurts the most. Cut through, slicing the Seleukid empire in two. Break their lines.

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Originally Posted by vartan

Been there, done that.

I find it to be one of the most fun campaigns, and I don't even use FD (I find FD boring).

It's accurate enough if you're referring to the Hye, and it certainly isn't enjoyable watching people die unless you're a sadist. Indeed.

You don't cope with the Seleukid attacks, you counter-attack. Cope implies a defensive posture. The turtle's shell will eventually crack. Come out of the shell and blow with your hammer where it hurts the most. Cut through, slicing the Seleukid empire in two. Break their lines.

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Just like every dood who claim completion of the hardest campaigns, you prefer to brag ("i've done it"), than actually explain what are your army composition, which settlement you go for first, did you develop before attacking, did the ptolemaioi keep the seleucid busy whiile you were being superman, how far you went before quitting, or provide a screenshot.

Please enlighten us.

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Originally Posted by siegfriedfr

Just like every dood who claim completion of the hardest campaigns, you prefer to brag ("i've done it"), than actually explain how you did, and how far you went, or provide a screenshot.

Zero credibility.

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He actually did it...:mean: show respect!

Well here is my Hai campaign, H/M no cheats, no modifications.
https://a.imageshack.us/img827/8392/haiempire.png

I fought my way to Persepolis with my faction leader who wanted to see it before he died. He ended up making the trek back to Armavir with his army intact and he's still hanging out there. He has great command skills, but is totally inept at running the capital. I would put him in the field but I wanted to retire him. Another family member recently captured Trebizond giving him the Arkhan Arkah trait as well.

At war with AS and Ptolies. I lucked out and Sauros never attacked me in this campaign. They are even more difficult to deal with than AS when playing as Hai. Basically I started off conquering the Caucasus regions, then invaded Karkiotherta. Held it while my main army sacked Seleucia giving me enough funds to build mines which, when completed financed a good enough army to move east taking Ecbatana, Susa, Gabai, and Persepolis. With these towns I could afford a small second army which headed south and took Seleucia and Arbela. I bought Babylon from the AS during a brief ceasefire, Charax rebelled from them and I grabbed it. They attacked me again and so I conquered Gerrha even though I don't really want it but they had a full army in it and a full merc army wandering the desert around town so I didn't want them in my rear. Now Ptolies attacked me and Pontus. I'm doing well, Pontus is not. I should be able to counterattack Ptolies soon and maybe gift Pontus some territory so I can consolidate my nice little Persia-Hai Empire.