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I found the "Imam recall" interesting. I wonder what the implications will be on a wider scale? Saudi Arabia is certainly capable of exerting it's influence to other nations.
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I found the "Imam recall" interesting. I wonder what the implications will be on a wider scale? Saudi Arabia is certainly capable of exerting it's influence to other nations.
Any thoughts on this?
Good news for us, but it will probably just inflame anti-government sentiment there.
The Saudi's have shown themselves capable of staying in power, however, so will that really be a problem?
Don't trust 'em, 'nuf said.
Perhaps. I would venture to guess it depends on how much US backed support they receive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
What do you mean by support? Saudi Arabia is hardly strapped for cash.Quote:
Perhaps. I would venture to guess it depends on how much US backed support they receive.
I don't think it'll have any sort of drastic effect. You can't just 'retrain' people and tell them that they should now stop believing in something, moreso in religious matters, which tend to be held with more conviction than ordinary matters. But I guess it's a step in the right direction-- at least the government has made official gestures towards moderation.
If people are willing, I think it can work. My priest from a long time ago used to be a real fire and brimstone ranter, he went away to train/learn/whatever, and came back still pretty extreme, but certainly less than before, and his sermons were much more bearable.
Saudis are worried that clerics are slipping out of their control, that's all. Muslim extremism, alongside oil, is still their primary export product and I'd be very, very surprised if they attempt serious reforms in that area.
Hah! They've been funding it for the past 20 years.
Money means nothing if you can't spend it on anything. We provide them with a great deal of support.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myrddraal
Equally, you could say support means nothing without people with cash to buy it...Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladimir
Well, this is Saudi Arabia. I don't think they'll have much trouble bringing in the executioner if necessary. How they would charge the individual would be interesting, but I'm sure they could think of something.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quirinus
Throwing all political correctness aside, I'm of the opinion that if we can make Islam as a whole at least as moderate as Christianity or Judaism are as a whole, it's a good thing. :bow:
Only last week, a prominent cleric called for the beheading of two liberal writers who had questioned the orthodox view that Muslims can not change their religion.
:shame:
Is it possible to get more extreme than the saudi royal family...?
Or did you mean "evil terrorist" when you said "extremist"?
It'd be interesting to see the international community's reaction to that. :grin: I wonder what those people who condemned Muslims wanting to execute Salman Rushdie or the Danish cartoonists would make of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
I don't think executing them would be an answer, though-- it'd only make the clerics into martyrs and turn Muslim opinion against the Saudi government.
I can imagine the protest solgans now...Quote:
Originally Posted by Quirinus
Death to the King!
Burn the Shahadah!*
Raze Mecca to the ground!
Ah, protestors...really. :laugh4:
*The inscription upon the Saudi flag.
A lot of people say that they're taking it out of context, the whole execution to those that change their religion. I agree, the Quran refers to those that turn their back on the belief in god, not Islam.
Considering that its likely that the belief held back when that book was written was that there was only one true god, it would be the same, wouldn't it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fahad I
Not really, that's one of the common misconceptions people tend to think about Islam. The fact is that Allah is god, and the two other religions (Christianity and Judaism) are considered to be the origins of the Quran. It's just that Muslims believe that Jesus was a messenger/prophet, we don't call Jews or Christians non-believers.Quote:
Originally Posted by FactionHeir
Perhaps I'm just confirming my common misconception here, but I thought Muslims distinguished themselves from others by accepting Allah as the only God, and also accepting that Mohammed is his Prophet, thus excluding other faiths of the book.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fahad I
I don't think I've made it clear enough. Allah is the same god that Jews worship, I can't say it's the same god that Christians worship because I don't know whether Christians consider Jesus is god himself or the son of god. The Quran still holds Moses, Jesus, Abraham, etc. in high regard, we consider them the ones who paved the way, which basically means that the Bible and Torah are the origins of the Quran.Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoffrey S
Anyway, on topic, crazy extremists take it out of context and decide to go back to the middle ages and perform Jihad, on an unnecessary cause.
Well these same extremists are treated with the utmost respect don't count on us here we are in a permanent state of stockholm syndrome
I don't think I made myself clear enough. I thought that there were two foundations defining Muslims:Quote:
Originally Posted by Fahad I
1. There is no God but God.
2. Mohammed is the (or a?) Prophet of God.
The point first non-Muslims can adhere to, though indeed there has been the matter of the perceived idolatry of Christ. But certainly earlier prophets are held in high esteem. The second point, however, is something no Christian or Jew can do, and defines Islam as something separate.
Like that is any better. :2thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Fahad I
If that is the case, slightly - it opens the door for conversion to Christianity and the Judaism.Quote:
Originally Posted by Viking
Kind of both. Jesus is God's son, but Jesus is also part of the Holy Trinity, making Jesus both the Son of God and God the Son.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fahad I
That's a little hard to understand, are you saying that we respect these maniacs?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
And Allah is god, I'm not seeing where this is going.... It's all the same one god really, this is just a different name.Quote:
1. There is no God but God.
A prophet of god.Quote:
2.Mohammed is the (or a?) Prophet of God.
Sorry, I find this a little hard to understand, something separate from what?Quote:
The second point, however, is something no Christian or Jew can do, and defines Islam as something separate.
How is that? I'm curious.Quote:
If that is the case, slightly - it opens the door for conversion to Christianity and the Judaism.
I believe he's saying that his people (the Dutch) do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fahad I
Geoffrey's asking a question I've had for some time as well. Isn't a belief that Mohammed was God's prophet, in fact God's greatest prophet, necessary for being a good muslim? Doesn't Islam call for the conversion of people not just to a belief in God, but to a belief in Mohammed? In the interest of full disclosure, yes, of course, Christianity does hold a similar requirement. It's not enough to believe in Yaweh (which would make you Jewish), but that the Messiah of the prophesies has come, and His name was Jesus Christ.Quote:
And Allah is god, I'm not seeing where this is going.... It's all the same one god really, this is just a different name.
A prophet of god.
Sorry, I find this a little hard to understand, something separate from what?
How is that? I'm curious.
*Not trying to straw-man you. As a Roman Catholic that resents being told he's either a cannibal or deluded, I understand there may be some nuances of your belief system that are lost on me.
Also, another question I have about Islam (or Judiasm, for that matter...) Okay, you don't accept that Jesus the Christ was the Messiah. Do you believe one will come? In light of Yaweh of the Old Testament's frequent statements that the Law can only guide man, it cannot justify man to God again, how is it that Muslims believe they can ascend to heaven? And to my Jewish friends out there... what is your concept of the afterlife, in light of the broken relationship issue?
Yes, to be a true Muslim, you need to believe in god and his prophet Muhammad. The point I was trying to make is that the Quran does not mention that you need to take out a sword, start a needless war, and fight those that already believe in god. Also, did you know that Jews are referred to as "cousins" in the Quran?
You mean do we believe a Messiah will come? I don't exactly know the definition of Messiah but we do believe that Jesus will come and guide us, and before that, Muhammad's grandson.
I hope this was the info you were looking for, it's kind of hard explaining all this.
The Dutch respect extremists? ......Where have I been?:wall:
Edit: Nvm, I never knew what stockholm syndrome was until you mentioned it, forgive my ignorance. :bow:
If you go back and read many of the propechies from the time of the Captivity, there is the call for a "Messiah", a deliverer of mankind who will mend the breach and make it possible for man to be reconciled with God. I think Jews believe this entity has yet to appear. I'm curious as to the Muslim view of a redeemer and savior. The Old Testament prophesies do not explicitly claim the redeemer to be divine, nor do they preclude it. Some could argue (and have) that the 'redeemer' was always intended to be a very human figure, a Jewish King Arthur if you will. In fact, some people have even claimed that the prophesised messiah, as well as the Arthur of legends, never referred to a specific person, so much as 'he who takes up the mantle of saving his people', and that there may be in fact several Messiahs or Arthurs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fahad I
My statements about a belief in Mohammed's special role weren't meant to be derogatory or touch a nerve. I'm trying to assess objectively. I can objectively state that my own religion, Christianity, is probably the most exclusionary of the three monotheistic religions, as it requires the greatest departure from commonly accepted belief of the other two. The followers of all three appear to suffer from a holier than thou attitude which belies the message to which said followers claim to adhere.
As for the Dutch, I'll leave that to one of the numerous Dutch members that would be able to offer a more informed view of Dutch views on extremism than I could possibly hope to offer. Fragony's viewpoint has been expressed before, and usually there are one or two of his countrymen that take issue with his assessment. I know enough to know that I do not know enough to weigh in on the issue.
Yes, that's pretty much it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Corleone
Thanks, just wanted to make sure I got that right. That seems to be the main sticking point between the religions of the book. Christians need to believe in Christ, Son of God, and there's little to no room for another prophet after Him (though sometimes, I wonder). For Muslims, it is heresy to believe in Christ being divine, on equal footing to God - there, it is essential to view Mohammed as a prophet of God.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fahad I
Several reasons I'm curious about this matter. For starters, the weight attached to the hadith is directly linked to the importance of Mohammed, as arguably the majority of the bits interpreted as 'you need to take out a sword, start a needless war, and fight those that already believe in god' stem from those writings. And in my opinion, the majority of reform which can legitimately take place inside Islam will probably have to be in the form of permitting up-to-date interpretations of hadith.
However, the main reason is that I have heard it said among a fair number of Muslims that they find it worrying, the importance placed on hadith and the person of Mohammed and how literally some take his doings as an unchangeable manual over hundreds of years. To them, it seems certain Muslims practically make themselves guilty of idolizing Mohammed. That is my reason for being interested exactly what his role is in being Muslim.
Because if that is the case, it leaves room for those who still wish to follow the book but no longer Mohammed - hence, conversion to Judaism and Christianity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fahad I
I think most Dutch are pretty bewildered, too. Most of the time, it seems that there is precious little middle ground between what is deemed politically correct multiculturalism and what could be termed 'mass-correct' anti-immigration tendencies, particularly aimed at Muslims. As usual I'd say it's more a matter of politicians taking what is a relatively minor but because of the media highly visible issue, blowing it out of all proportion, and scoring cheap points while actually doing precious little real work on the matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Corleone
That sums it up alright. Muslims are a bit caught between blind multiculturalism, or the old left as we call it, and the at times rather hysterical right. But as I said in an earlier thread we are comming to our senses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoffrey S
forgive my ignorance.
That's ok I invented it ~;)
Ok, now I'm confused, you believe Jesus will come after Mohammed's Grandson?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fahad I
Leaving aside the Holy Trinity for a moment Christians believe Jesus the Christ was the last prophet, God's final messenger. That's the crux of the belief. Additionally it was decided by 318 Bishops around 1,650 years ago that he was also not only the Son of God but also God himself. That is to say the corporeal manifestation of God on Earth.
Essential to Christian belief is the death and ressurection of Christ, because when he died he is supposed to have decended into Hell, returned to Earth and then returned to Heaven. Jesus is therefore the sacrifice for our sins which allows us a chance at redemption, because he was the only perfect sinless man, and he takes on the weight of our sins.
Does that make sense? My point is that there is no room in Christianity for Prophets after Jesus. I thought that in Islam Mohammed was Allah's final Prophet, but you seem to be saying that that is not so.
So I'm really confused now.
The extreme and anti-human ideology remains, regardless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoffrey S
Why are you posting in this thread, just to insult people's beliefs?Quote:
Originally Posted by Viking
Aristotle had something to say about Atheists. They're boring.
Aristotle was himself (and still remains, just read it) something of a bore...Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
Anyway do you mean that since some Corrupt Mollah stated that conversion to Christianity or Judaïsm was MAYBE possible, we should not keep on opening our eyes on what the same wise men support, that is: you can become Christian, even Jew? Very nice. Just try to call yourself Atheist. Killing you would still not be a crime to their eyes.
Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla, do you think keeping the door open for the legal murder of Atheists is not "extreme and anti-human ideology"? Until they change their minds on THAT issue, I won't believe Saudis "counter muslim extremism".
And mind you, Saudi SUPPORTS Muslim extremisms. Any sign of the contrary is likely to be a lie in order to please their allies.
I'll bite. You mean the Saudis, extremist Muslims, or Muslims in general? Because as it stands, your comment isn't very helpful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Viking
I suppose Viking was talking about the official Saudi position. Obviously.
Not obvious, he could even be talking about Christians, Muslims and Jews. "Anti-human" idiology is something regularly leveled at Protestant Christians especially.
He's trolling, if he wanted to add to the arguement he's post more than a half sentence.
Paranoïd, Philipvs?:laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
Sorry, I see your point.
Viking has, as I can have, an Atheist reaction: aggressive. We have been hunted for 3500 years and we're liable to bite back easily now we can (where we can, obviouly in few countries). Maybe too easily, I admit. But your reaction, as quoted above, can be seen as a bit hysterical:clown: (sorry again, small agression in memoriam of our fellow atheists who died on the pyres)
About the "trolling", maybe you're right, I don't know what was Viking's point exactly.
If I try to guess, I'd say he thinks that an "opening", coming from such an awful government's officials, does not deserve more than a half sentence. (and that's my opinion too, there are too many bright INDEPENDANT muslim thinkers who think inside Islam to waste our time listening to those official Saudi Ulemas)
That's a bad excuse. What happened thousands of years ago shouldn't matter, or I'd be aggressive to Jews and Italians because of the crucifixion, or towards Russians because of what they did to my family after WWII.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tristuskhan
That's no reason to troll or be aggressive at all.
By "few" countries, I can only presume you mean the entire Western world?Quote:
(where we can, obviouly in few countries).
Total population count?Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
I was trying to apologize for a common attitude among Atheists like me. We seldom see it coming from the other "side". But it's all offtopic, I stop "trolling".
Back on Saudi's race towards modern religious standards: what a good move, everything is gonna change now, maybe I should date those scholars, we could have a good civilised argument, there is often a fascinating poetry and a fair amount of wiseness in Islam, maybe we could share knowledges. I know quite a bit on Epicurian, Stoic and Cynic philosophy. Early Soviet poetry. Ecology and forestry.
Just a dream, someone like me does not deserve life for a corporate Saudi Ulema.
Just stop it, okay?
You just keep picking, you make a good point and then you go back to being aggressive. Atheists persecuted? Protestants, Catholics, Methodists, Baptists and many other groups have been persecuted at one time or another and that's just within Christianity, I'm sure Muslim, Jews and even Budists could give you examples of sectarian conflicts within their religion.
It is your chouce to be an Atheist, that's your right, but if you start attacking people with theistic beliefs than you are worse than the historical groups you bemoan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal...s_within_Islam
The article in english is ridiculously short but nevermind, if you want a fertile exchange of thoughts with Islam, you'd better try to talk to people like Malek Chebel, Abdelwahab Meddeb or Muhammad Arkoun, but if you prefer the mellow words of Saudi liars, it's up to you. I just bet it's gonna be fruitless.
And:inquisitive: my vicious verbal attacks on Saudi Ulemas make me worse than those supporters of death penalty, lovers of women inferiority, ennemies of arts, freedom of speach and thoughts? I bend to the sheer weight of your judgement...
Back on topic, please: those Saudi Ulemas are paid by the royal familly, any word they say has a political purpose. Most of time their "modernism" is just a cheap way to please their (US, and especially fundamentalist protestants, as a matter of fact) allies, and keep in mind they are too tighly linked with a dictatorial regime to be trusted.
When you say that Saudis are funding these extremists, do you mean the extremists who are inside the country or the others around it?
Now this has blown way out of proportions and it seems that people ignore the context as they self see fit.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
It should be pretty obvious that the ideology that I was referring to was:
Quote:
A lot of people say that they're taking it out of context, the whole execution to those that change their religion. I agree, the Quran refers to those that turn their back on the belief in god, not Islam.
It is pretty silly of you to bring in ad hominem in the discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
Again, it is written clear enough in the context which it stands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoffrey S
I merely stated my disgust over the idea that people should be killed because of their beliefs and thoughts, and did so in a most civil manner.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tristuskhan
I'll try to be more accurate. Saudi Arabia funds mosques all around the world to spread the official Saudi version of Islam, which is not just slighly conservative.
Saudi Arabia also trains a good share of clone Wahabbi preachers (normal, they are the only ones who have money to do so), whose speeches are fearsome.
Many of the Mullahs in Europe were trained in Saudi Arabia and they efficiently kill any kind of alternate vision and practice of Islam. My mother's husband is a devout muslim (egyptian) and has changed mosque twice in the last three years, beeing fed up with Saudi-inclined "scholars" who try to force fear and hate in the hearts of men. He found a mosque where the majority is Turkish, so is the Mollah and the man speaks of faith and personnal Jihad, not politics and aggressive Jihad.
Religion was a political tool in the hands of Ibn Sa'ud to come in power, and is still used as a political tool by Saudi monarchs today, that's the reason why I can't trust an official Saudi religious authority.
So to answer your question Farhad, what I see is Saudi Arabia funding a very conservative stance at home (calling them "extremists" is a question of viewpoint, I would call them so) and encouraging a notoriously perverted form of Islam abroad.
Don't want to derail the thread but one question for you Tristan, are there any consequences for switching mosks? Heard story's about the so-called 'nephews' that *ahum* encourage people to keep it real.
What do you mean exactly by 'switching mosques'? I've never heard anyone say this before.
I mean going to another one because you don't like the violent message of some imams, there are a few mosks here where the jihad is preached, I heard they can be a real pest if you decide to go to a more moderate mosk. Creepy phonecalls at night, that sort of thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fahad I
Uhh....:inquisitive: I switch mosques all the time, I don't get creepy phone calls. And besides, all mosques have the same topics on Fridays, so if one was preaching violence, than all of them would, but they don't. Maybe it's different in Europe?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
When I talk about islam I talk about islam in europe, it's the only one I know. As I said earlier, nothing is being done about imam's that preach violence, politicians are too scared to be labeled as a islamophobic. What is said here would probably be enough to be jailed in a muslim country.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fahad I
This should give you bit of a hint of the situation,
https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...snum=0&spell=1
This is in England, the political correctness capital of the world, I say they are complete idiots. What you see there is above al critisism.
I'm a Muslim myself and I'm saying that's ridiculous. What is said here would probably be enough to be jailed in a Muslim country??? No not really, here in the UAE, an imam was arrested because he went completely off-topic and against the board by preaching violence, he was expecting popularity, he was wrong. Saudi Arabia is probably the only Gulf country that executes people for such things, there are more liberal (and religious at the same time) Muslim countries than you think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Also, Christians and Jews aren't referred to as 'kuffaar'.
We don't hit a woman for not wearing a hijjab, that's just stupid.
I can agree with that. Personally, I don't give a damn what they do inside 'their' country, reprehensible though it is, but I am constantly amazed that other nations don't take a zero-tolerance policy against their funding of foreign mosques and preachers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tristuskhan
You know, I'm tempted to take a very cheap shot at Obama and Wright here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
I meant what the imams say would be enough to be jailed, sorry for the confusion. I believe you that these things aren't said where you live, but they are being said here in europe, if you want to understand why some of us aren't very fond of the islam, well now you know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fahad I
Yeah, it's a shame really. But isn't this really the same case as the Nazis of Germany? I mean we don't call Germans Nazis do we? With Iran, Hezbollah, etc. supporting these things, I don't think it'll ever be put to rest.
Muslims aren't really the problem, there are problems but that's mostly criminal youths. They just don't know how far they can go because they are actually encouraged to keep stretching the borders of what is acceptable to us, and they can't know when they are tresspassing. Once the idiotic political correctness and islamfetisjm is gone it's going to be just fine, all it takes is a bit of a respectable distance from both sides.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fahad I
Tristuskhan, Vicious is never good, but I was reffering to your pyres and "3,500 years of persecution post.
Viking, it's not obvious, becuase this is an internet forum. If you had written "Just because Islam allows you to convert to teo other religions doesn't make it any better." That would have been clear, and I didn't produce an ad hominem for any reason than to demonstatrate that that was all you seemed to be producing.
Now, on topic.
Fahad, I think that in general Iraq, Iran and Saudi are considered very extreme these days, Syria as well probably but it doesn't get a lot of news time these days. Lebenon and Palastine obviosly have powerful extremists elements as well.
The Hijab is a particular sticking point for Western men because many find it offensive, in so far as woman only feels safe with a man if she's covered, or worse that she does not feel safe with them at all.
Succinct and agreeable. Major problem now is not seeing the forest for the particularly extremist trees, as it were.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Nice word didn't know that one had to look it up. Getting there no? Anti-political correctness is just as aggresive as political correctness nowadays (even more then I like, I like), the old left isn't playing at home anymore they will have to work for it. Looks like we are to guide europe nations toward common sense, again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoffrey S
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
I was only referring to the execution, not as the religion as a whole.
Quote:
Like that is any better.
There is no way you can turn that into an anti-Islam comment otherwise you want it to be just that. If you considered it unclear, you'd not jump the gun and load off all the ammunition you got.
Any Muslim country in war is going to have groups like Hamas or Hezbollah. I see what you're saying, but did Iran really do anything to be labeled as a 'terrorist nation'?Quote:
Fahad, I think that in general Iraq, Iran and Saudi are considered very extreme these days, Syria as well probably but it doesn't get a lot of news time these days. Lebenon and Palastine obviosly have powerful extremists elements as well.
The Hijab is a particular sticking point for Western men because many find it offensive, in so far as woman only feels safe with a man if she's covered, or worse that she does not feel safe with them at all.
I mean since he lives with my mother (he moved from Paris to Brittany to do so), he went to the closest mosque, was bored, tried the next, dangerous (he said) and found people he is pleased to pray with when he found the third (and last...). The man being 6ft 8in (2 meters) tall and fit as a bull no one blamed him for having changed. I don't think such behaviour (phone harrassment) is widely used in France.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fahad I
Iran has done almost nothing to be labelled 'terrorist', but the many people remind the fearsome and extreme methods used by Iran in her (heroic and defensive) war against Irak. Add the rethorics of Iran's rulers, the support offered by them to unreliable resistance movements here and there and you have obvious reasons for Iran to have a rather poor image in the west. Do Iranians deserve it, I'd say no.
I'm not going to argue semantics with you. Regardless, I have unloaded nothing but mild dissaproval.Quote:
Originally Posted by Viking
Just an example doesn't have to apply to france, but it's true people are pressured once they moved through the wrong door? He didn't get any, let's say disaproving gazing?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tristuskhan
As far as I know, not more than if he had changed his football team.