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Thread: Saudi Arabia Counters Muslim Extremism

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    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Saudi Arabia Counters Muslim Extremism

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    I found the "Imam recall" interesting. I wonder what the implications will be on a wider scale? Saudi Arabia is certainly capable of exerting it's influence to other nations.

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    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: Saudi Arabia Counters Muslim Extremism

    Any thoughts on this?

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    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Saudi Arabia Counters Muslim Extremism

    Good news for us, but it will probably just inflame anti-government sentiment there.
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    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: Saudi Arabia Counters Muslim Extremism

    The Saudi's have shown themselves capable of staying in power, however, so will that really be a problem?

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    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Saudi Arabia Counters Muslim Extremism

    Don't trust 'em, 'nuf said.


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    The Usual Member Ice's Avatar
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    Default Re: Saudi Arabia Counters Muslim Extremism

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
    The Saudi's have shown themselves capable of staying in power, however, so will that really be a problem?
    Perhaps. I would venture to guess it depends on how much US backed support they receive.



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    Shaidar Haran Senior Member SAM Site Champion Myrddraal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Saudi Arabia Counters Muslim Extremism

    Perhaps. I would venture to guess it depends on how much US backed support they receive.
    What do you mean by support? Saudi Arabia is hardly strapped for cash.

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    Deranged rock ape Member Quirinus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Saudi Arabia Counters Muslim Extremism

    I don't think it'll have any sort of drastic effect. You can't just 'retrain' people and tell them that they should now stop believing in something, moreso in religious matters, which tend to be held with more conviction than ordinary matters. But I guess it's a step in the right direction-- at least the government has made official gestures towards moderation.
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    Shaidar Haran Senior Member SAM Site Champion Myrddraal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Saudi Arabia Counters Muslim Extremism

    If people are willing, I think it can work. My priest from a long time ago used to be a real fire and brimstone ranter, he went away to train/learn/whatever, and came back still pretty extreme, but certainly less than before, and his sermons were much more bearable.

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    Come to daddy Member Geoffrey S's Avatar
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    Default Re: Saudi Arabia Counters Muslim Extremism

    Saudis are worried that clerics are slipping out of their control, that's all. Muslim extremism, alongside oil, is still their primary export product and I'd be very, very surprised if they attempt serious reforms in that area.
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    Intifadah Member Dāriūsh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Saudi Arabia Counters Muslim Extremism

    Hah! They've been funding it for the past 20 years.
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    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Saudi Arabia Counters Muslim Extremism

    Quote Originally Posted by Myrddraal
    What do you mean by support? Saudi Arabia is hardly strapped for cash.
    Money means nothing if you can't spend it on anything. We provide them with a great deal of support.


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    Come to daddy Member Geoffrey S's Avatar
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    Default Re: Saudi Arabia Counters Muslim Extremism

    Quote Originally Posted by Vladimir
    Money means nothing if you can't spend it on anything. We provide them with a great deal of support.
    Equally, you could say support means nothing without people with cash to buy it...
    "The facts of history cannot be purely objective, since they become facts of history only in virtue of the significance attached to them by the historian." E.H. Carr

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    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: Saudi Arabia Counters Muslim Extremism

    Quote Originally Posted by Quirinus
    I don't think it'll have any sort of drastic effect. You can't just 'retrain' people and tell them that they should now stop believing in something, moreso in religious matters, which tend to be held with more conviction than ordinary matters. But I guess it's a step in the right direction-- at least the government has made official gestures towards moderation.
    Well, this is Saudi Arabia. I don't think they'll have much trouble bringing in the executioner if necessary. How they would charge the individual would be interesting, but I'm sure they could think of something.

    Throwing all political correctness aside, I'm of the opinion that if we can make Islam as a whole at least as moderate as Christianity or Judaism are as a whole, it's a good thing.

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    Friend of Lady Luck Member Mooks's Avatar
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    Default Re: Saudi Arabia Counters Muslim Extremism

    Only last week, a prominent cleric called for the beheading of two liberal writers who had questioned the orthodox view that Muslims can not change their religion.

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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Saudi Arabia Counters Muslim Extremism

    Is it possible to get more extreme than the saudi royal family...?

    Or did you mean "evil terrorist" when you said "extremist"?
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    Deranged rock ape Member Quirinus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Saudi Arabia Counters Muslim Extremism

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
    Well, this is Saudi Arabia. I don't think they'll have much trouble bringing in the executioner if necessary. How they would charge the individual would be interesting, but I'm sure they could think of something.
    It'd be interesting to see the international community's reaction to that. I wonder what those people who condemned Muslims wanting to execute Salman Rushdie or the Danish cartoonists would make of it.

    I don't think executing them would be an answer, though-- it'd only make the clerics into martyrs and turn Muslim opinion against the Saudi government.
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    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: Saudi Arabia Counters Muslim Extremism

    Quote Originally Posted by Quirinus
    It'd be interesting to see the international community's reaction to that. I wonder what those people who condemned Muslims wanting to execute Salman Rushdie or the Danish cartoonists would make of it.
    I can imagine the protest solgans now...

    Death to the King!
    Burn the Shahadah!*
    Raze Mecca to the ground!


    Ah, protestors...really.

    *The inscription upon the Saudi flag.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Saudi Arabia Counters Muslim Extremism

    A lot of people say that they're taking it out of context, the whole execution to those that change their religion. I agree, the Quran refers to those that turn their back on the belief in god, not Islam.

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    Relentless Bughunter Senior Member FactionHeir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Saudi Arabia Counters Muslim Extremism

    Quote Originally Posted by Fahad I
    A lot of people say that they're taking it out of context, the whole execution to those that change their religion. I agree, the Quran refers to those that turn their back on the belief in god, not Islam.
    Considering that its likely that the belief held back when that book was written was that there was only one true god, it would be the same, wouldn't it?
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    Default Re: Saudi Arabia Counters Muslim Extremism

    Quote Originally Posted by FactionHeir
    Considering that its likely that the belief held back when that book was written was that there was only one true god, it would be the same, wouldn't it?
    Not really, that's one of the common misconceptions people tend to think about Islam. The fact is that Allah is god, and the two other religions (Christianity and Judaism) are considered to be the origins of the Quran. It's just that Muslims believe that Jesus was a messenger/prophet, we don't call Jews or Christians non-believers.

  22. #22
    Come to daddy Member Geoffrey S's Avatar
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    Default Re: Saudi Arabia Counters Muslim Extremism

    Quote Originally Posted by Fahad I
    Not really, that's one of the common misconceptions people tend to think about Islam. The fact is that Allah is god, and the two other religions (Christianity and Judaism) are considered to be the origins of the Quran. It's just that Muslims believe that Jesus was a messenger/prophet, we don't call Jews or Christians non-believers.
    Perhaps I'm just confirming my common misconception here, but I thought Muslims distinguished themselves from others by accepting Allah as the only God, and also accepting that Mohammed is his Prophet, thus excluding other faiths of the book.
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  23. #23

    Default Re: Saudi Arabia Counters Muslim Extremism

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffrey S
    Perhaps I'm just confirming my common misconception here, but I thought Muslims distinguished themselves from others by accepting Allah as the only God, and also accepting that Mohammed is his Prophet, thus excluding other faiths of the book.
    I don't think I've made it clear enough. Allah is the same god that Jews worship, I can't say it's the same god that Christians worship because I don't know whether Christians consider Jesus is god himself or the son of god. The Quran still holds Moses, Jesus, Abraham, etc. in high regard, we consider them the ones who paved the way, which basically means that the Bible and Torah are the origins of the Quran.

    Anyway, on topic, crazy extremists take it out of context and decide to go back to the middle ages and perform Jihad, on an unnecessary cause.
    Last edited by Paradox; 03-24-2008 at 18:33.

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Saudi Arabia Counters Muslim Extremism

    Well these same extremists are treated with the utmost respect don't count on us here we are in a permanent state of stockholm syndrome
    Last edited by Fragony; 03-24-2008 at 18:47.

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    Come to daddy Member Geoffrey S's Avatar
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    Default Re: Saudi Arabia Counters Muslim Extremism

    Quote Originally Posted by Fahad I
    I don't think I've made it clear enough. Allah is the same god that Jews worship, I can't say it's the same god that Christians worship because I don't know whether Christians consider Jesus is god himself or the son of god. The Quran still holds Moses, Jesus, Abraham, etc. in high regard, we consider them the ones who paved the way, which basically means that the Bible and Torah are the origins of the Quran.
    I don't think I made myself clear enough. I thought that there were two foundations defining Muslims:
    1. There is no God but God.
    2. Mohammed is the (or a?) Prophet of God.
    The point first non-Muslims can adhere to, though indeed there has been the matter of the perceived idolatry of Christ. But certainly earlier prophets are held in high esteem. The second point, however, is something no Christian or Jew can do, and defines Islam as something separate.
    Last edited by Geoffrey S; 03-24-2008 at 20:07.
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    Hǫršar Member Viking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Saudi Arabia Counters Muslim Extremism

    Quote Originally Posted by Fahad I
    A lot of people say that they're taking it out of context, the whole execution to those that change their religion. I agree, the Quran refers to those that turn their back on the belief in god, not Islam.
    Like that is any better.
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    Come to daddy Member Geoffrey S's Avatar
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    Default Re: Saudi Arabia Counters Muslim Extremism

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking
    Like that is any better.
    If that is the case, slightly - it opens the door for conversion to Christianity and the Judaism.
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    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: Saudi Arabia Counters Muslim Extremism

    Quote Originally Posted by Fahad I
    I don't know whether Christians consider Jesus is god himself or the son of god.
    Kind of both. Jesus is God's son, but Jesus is also part of the Holy Trinity, making Jesus both the Son of God and God the Son.
    Last edited by Evil_Maniac From Mars; 03-24-2008 at 20:46.

  29. #29

    Default Re: Saudi Arabia Counters Muslim Extremism

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony
    Well these same extremists are treated with the utmost respect don't count on us here we are in a permanent state of stockholm syndrome
    That's a little hard to understand, are you saying that we respect these maniacs?
    1. There is no God but God.
    And Allah is god, I'm not seeing where this is going.... It's all the same one god really, this is just a different name.
    2.Mohammed is the (or a?) Prophet of God.
    A prophet of god.
    The second point, however, is something no Christian or Jew can do, and defines Islam as something separate.
    Sorry, I find this a little hard to understand, something separate from what?
    If that is the case, slightly - it opens the door for conversion to Christianity and the Judaism.
    How is that? I'm curious.

  30. #30
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Saudi Arabia Counters Muslim Extremism

    Quote Originally Posted by Fahad I
    That's a little hard to understand, are you saying that we respect these maniacs?
    I believe he's saying that his people (the Dutch) do.

    And Allah is god, I'm not seeing where this is going.... It's all the same one god really, this is just a different name.

    A prophet of god.

    Sorry, I find this a little hard to understand, something separate from what?

    How is that? I'm curious.
    Geoffrey's asking a question I've had for some time as well. Isn't a belief that Mohammed was God's prophet, in fact God's greatest prophet, necessary for being a good muslim? Doesn't Islam call for the conversion of people not just to a belief in God, but to a belief in Mohammed? In the interest of full disclosure, yes, of course, Christianity does hold a similar requirement. It's not enough to believe in Yaweh (which would make you Jewish), but that the Messiah of the prophesies has come, and His name was Jesus Christ.

    *Not trying to straw-man you. As a Roman Catholic that resents being told he's either a cannibal or deluded, I understand there may be some nuances of your belief system that are lost on me.

    Also, another question I have about Islam (or Judiasm, for that matter...) Okay, you don't accept that Jesus the Christ was the Messiah. Do you believe one will come? In light of Yaweh of the Old Testament's frequent statements that the Law can only guide man, it cannot justify man to God again, how is it that Muslims believe they can ascend to heaven? And to my Jewish friends out there... what is your concept of the afterlife, in light of the broken relationship issue?
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