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(Note: I do not, in anyway, condone Holocaust deniars, neo-nazis, ro radical right wingers. I know the Holocaust occured, I do not deny it. This is a mere question I have proposed)
So, reading the laws regarding Holocaust Denial, I have noticed that those who apparently publically deny the Holocaust are fined and even jailed. Now, to the point, should Holocaust deniars be jailed for this?
No. It is ridiculous that in the fifteen-billion year history of the universe, one single event is not open to question.
For my part, I believe it happened.
Nope. If people want to be idiots, they have every right to do so.
What he said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
It comes down to freedom of thought and freedom of speech.
I for one believe that everyone is entitled to their opinion, and should be allowed to express their views. Whether they're idiots or not, whether they're are conspiracy theorists or not, or whether they are sane or not. If you don't agree with them then don't listen to them.
(I certainly don't!)
Why should one particular sort of offensive idiocy be illegal? Just say no to thoughtcrime. Freedom of expression rocks my world, baby.
No.
CR
Surely letting people say things "did not occur" is not a criminal act?
Whilst I can see that it is an imflamatory topic and highly charged - surely someone is allowed to have their opinion and voice it? Are these basic rights not what wars have been fought over?
A very small minority may think it a product of propoganda or an overstated attrocity but to ban them in voicing their "opinion" is pathetic.
Does that mean we will have to imprision the "flat earth" society?
Hey lets take it one step further - evolution v divine creation. Have a vote, a count up and then at the end imprision the minority for having an opinion.
No. People can have as many idiotic beliefs as they want and express them as much as they want, with a single condition - that what they express does not cause the harm of others. If someone wants to say the holocaust never happened, then they should be allowed to state that, whenever and wherever - if they had extremely bad taste, even in the accompany of Jewish people - but if they were to state, the holocaust never happened and look there is a Jew over there, lets go kill him - then, no, they should get punished in some way. (and the Jewish guy does get killed by someone) Just like people living in the West can denounce the West and have fundamentalist beliefs, but when they go around stating in public, bomb trains and behead civilians, that can't be right.
No. This is one case where it really is that simple. Again, hell no.
I agree with everyone else here. The mere hint of imprisoning someone simply for their own opinion (regardless of what that opinion is related to) is easily the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard.
Just for the record, I know the Holocaust happened.
The Government has no right to stop people saying what they want - No.
There is no reason to imprison such douchebags. Let the world laugh at them.
What they said.
If you wish to rid the world of idiots, education and debate is the way to go. Jailing the idiots isn't a good option.
No, they shouldn't be jailed or fined.
In fact, doing so seems to aim at quelling any dissent, suggesting that maybe it didn't occur (y'know, gvt cover up and all) :tongue2:
They shouldn't be jailed for denying that the holocaust took place. However, frequently holocaust deniers are either guilty of professional misconduct (in the case of certain so-called historians), or are guilty of using such claims to incite racial hatred - both of which are punishable through fines, and at the very least ruining professional careers. That's enough in my opinion.
Maybe it's a bit harch to fine people for being stupid. In essense I agree about freedom of speech. Too bad neo-nazies get those rights too... Only danish newspapers are condemmed.
If I lost my family to the nazi death-camps I would certainly be hurt if somebody said I was a liar or delusional. Maybe as much as if somebody called me a jewish *** (don't know any jewish racial slurs...) or something like that. So what is the difference?
Remember that many millions lost family and friends in those camps. Not only jews, but also communists, handicapped, homosexuals, gypsies and policemen from occupied countries.
No, and I vote for a poll. :smash:
Uhm, no... I can't think of a single time a nazi has said something and not been condemned...Quote:
Originally Posted by Magraev
Nope, why waste money on housing them in jails?
No. Jailing them gives them a vague sense of legitimacy, like the "government" doesn't want them spreading the word. They should be kept out in the open where people can point and laugh at them.
I am curious about a few things:Quote:
Originally Posted by SwedishFish
1. You're personal answer to the question you posed.
2. Are you surprised by the lopsided outcome of the responses?
3. What was your point to posting?
I find it odd to have such a question posed here in the backroom as it seems to be a forum of free thinkers anyway. The question posed seems to be answered by the very nature of the forum and its participants, yet no follow up adgenda:inquisitive:
I dont know your posting style, so I am curious. The holocaust is still a fairly sensative topic I have had a few misunderstandings about it here in my time. You've piqued my intrest, and for the record my answer is no I dont think they should be jailed.
Disclaimer: Just because I am curious as to your intent and reasoning dosent mean your wrong to post your query or need to justify it in anyway. However if you would oblige I would be most thankful. :medievalcheers:
If you mean me I am still really sorry, and if you don't, stillQuote:
Originally Posted by Odin
Yes you were one of them, we buried that hatchet frag its all good. Besides its just another example of how you changed my life. :flowers:Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Good. I shoudln't post when drunk. But I am not going to fall for these flowers either :2thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Odin
1. Well, it is tough for me. On one hand, jailing someone for an opinion, stupid as it may be, kind of blows in the face of "Free speech". On the other hand, this is an existing law put in place by a democratic government, and is (not to sure, if Husar would like to correct) open for amendment, this means that the people who do get jailed for this knowingly and willingly break a law put in place. And then there's wether or not people have this opinion because of poor education, or they use this to incite racial hatred and dissent.Quote:
1. You're personal answer to the question you posed.
2. Are you surprised by the lopsided outcome of the responses?
3. What was your point to posting?
2. Yes. I have posed this question to many before, and a lot of the answers I get contains the words "Insensitive", "Nazi", and "Racists". Therefore, this is the first time I really got the answer "People should not be jailed for opinion, even if it is stupid" especially when it comes to the Holocaust.
3. Simple question.
The answer is obviously no, but this thread is way too boring if I say what I think, so I am going to say the opposite.
Lets look at the facts. The holocaust happened. I mean, it really, really obviously happened.
Why might someone deny that fact?
1) they are ignorant of the evidence for the holocaust. Well, OK. Personally, before rushing out with a really whacky and very offensive point of view, I would check my facts a touch, but we'll give these guys some slack. They need some info. That's fine, we give them a book and send them home.
2) They are not relating to the holocaust as a historical fact, but as something else. OK, this gets a bit darker. Why would someone need to believe industrialised murder of jews (and others but mainly jews) didn't happen? Why would they need to communicate that belief. What agenda are they promoting, and should they be allowed public space to promote it? Is there a danger that their beleif may come to be seen to be legitimate? Maybe, even, a valid point of view?
I don't know about criminalisation, but there is a difference between being open minded and saying everything goes. If we are criminalsing not a private opinion but public advocacy, well, maybe its OK to impose some rules on public debate.
Ah, hell, I haven't even managed to convince myself. As you were, gentlemen.
Nice to see you around, Odin.
They shouldn't be jailed , they should be pilloried for their views, the entertainment value would be massive .
I was hopeing someone would go down this road to liven it up a bit. I guess the same could be said for enforcing a law against speaking ill of an event in human history? Guilt is a poweful emotion and criminalizing something that envokes it might be a little to preemptive for my taste.Quote:
Originally Posted by English assassin
Thanks EA, glad to see you as well. I might have to go back in the field again in the fall but for now I will be around soiling the good name of the backroom. :thumbsup:Quote:
Nice to see you around, Odin.
Thank you for the timely and direct reply, I appreciate it. :yes:Quote:
Originally Posted by SwedishFish
I can see it now: Sieg *cabbage to the face*Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
Yes, that too. :yes:Quote:
Originally Posted by English assassin
:thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian II
You EU boys always make me blush....
No rebuttals? :2thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Odin
Yep = same like deniars of soviet crimes and jewish crimes.
Why is that?Quote:
Originally Posted by KrooK
Please, don't post. I do not wish this thread to be locked.Quote:
Originally Posted by KrooK
Edit: Unless you can give me some non biased evidence of "Jewish crimes" then I will take the comment as a kind of anti Semetism, and even though I agree that the USSR had crimes, due to past reading, I will view the comment anti Russian as well
:2thumbsup:Quote:
Yep = same like deniars of Polish crimes
Haha Tribsey :2thumbsup: :laugh4:
Win, but I see where this will go, unfortunately.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
Personally, I've always been a big fan of smacking when it comes to dealing with the politically retarded...Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
no they should not.Quote:
Originally Posted by SwedishFish
Maybe our friend meant Meyer Lansky? ~:idea:Quote:
Originally Posted by SwedishFish
Maybe he did, but why anyone would want to shut up Krook is beyond me. He is by far one of the most entertaining backroom goers we have and should be considered for senior membership for his well thought out contributions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dâriûsh
Odin, cant' believe I haven't said this before, but welcome back from the Long Dark Night we all wander into from time to time. Good to have you back. I credit my rudeness to an enduring disbelief that you were ever really gone. ~:cheers:
I'm going the EA route and making an argument for outlawing holocaust denial (though I personally think you turn the lights on cockroaches, not stamp your feet and make them run & hide).
Our grandfathers weren't idiots. They had just witnessed one of the worst wars in mankind's history, and in absolute scale, it was the worst. But I think what scared them the absolute most was how thinking, rational people in Germany, Austria and other places could have been led to such a place (no offense to my German and Austrian friends. There were plenty of Nazis in the US in the 30's).
The violence rattled them, surely, but the ideas that had been pressed through Goebel's information machine and accepted as unassailable facts, this terrified them more than anything they had ever known. It would be as though after getting into Kabul, we learned that the Taliban had convinced the Afghans that the Sun was a death ray put in the sky by the USA, and therefore they only came out at night.
I think the legal minds of the time reacted rather strongly to this phenomenon. They wanted to make certain another Ministry for Public Enlightenment (Goebbel's little after-school club) could never come to pass. The laws against the Holocaust are as much laws against Gleichschaltung as anything else. And when you look at what they were able to accomplish in 15 short years, you understand why our grandfathers had the reaction they did. It happened so quickly, so thoroughly, and so beyond the bounds of human reason, our grandfathers were terrified about propaganda and misuse of information. Laws against denying the holocaust were seen as a 'canary in the coal-mine' if you will. So I understand them. I think their time has come and gone, however.
Thanks Don, you are still one of only a few people here that can reel me in via a PM and make me exhale. :thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Corleone
What everybody else said on the issue.
On a similar issue, what do you say about those guys that don't question the holocaust but the numbers? Is there a point to that? Does it make a difference whether it was 2 millions, 5 millions or 10 millions?
And is holocaust being exploited, to portray Jews as perpetual victims and give them more "manouvering space" today? Just wondering what makes Jews so special? Slavs were treated in very similar way, and in the end around 30 million Slavs was killed. Russian, Poles etc... Or the Chinese. How many of them were massacred?
I remember talking to some friends who were in Berlin as part of some student exchange organization and made a nice presentation about the city. They said that several years ago a cemetary was built that was supposed to be a memorial for all victims of the WW2. But under pressure, it was changed to exclusively Jewish memorial, although one already exists in Berlin.
Bottom line, are Jewish victims put before other victims? And if they are, do you think that is ok?
P.S. Should this be a separate thread?
Historical fact always needs questioning and confirmation, if it is done in an educated manner. It's still just as terrible no matter how many millions were killed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
Yes, it is. Indeed. There was an interesting incident with the DB a while back...I'll try to find a link.Quote:
And is holocaust being exploited, to portray Jews as perpetual victims and give them more "manouvering space" today?
I think that most countires/cultures/religions/races can use examples in history to plead that they were hard done by. Hell throw sex in there as well as woman have been oppressed as well.Quote:
And is holocaust being exploited, to portray Jews as perpetual victims and give them more "manouvering space" today?
But this kind of looking back just breeds more of the same in my opinion. The situation in Northern Ireland is an example. He did A to me - yeah because you did B to me - well I did that beacuse you did C and so on...
I do not think that anyone, German or otherwise (barring those that committed it) have to say sorry for the holocaust. This huge guilt, for an act commited so long ago that it will soon pass from memory to history, to be placed on a people that were not even born is pathetic.
Yes, learn about it in schools so that it (hopefully) will never happen again but feel no guilt.
I feel no guilt for the atomic bombs dropped on Japan in the war by my countries allies, I feel no guilt for the fire bombing of Dresden by the country my mother was born in. I am sad these things happened - but it is history now. Build a bridge and get over it.
Yes this may sound cold and heartless, but it is not. I genually feel sad and regret that these things happened. I just don't feel guilty. Does this make sence or is the meaning lost in my writing?
I think Tribesman is on the right track here.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not to their own facts.
Propounding a view that denies acknowledged and verified facts -- though I do not believe it should be criminal -- provides the listener with an easy means of evaluating the contributions made. Such voluntary proof of idiocy does, I agree, warrant ridicule.
The problem is that many of the facts are not actually facts, but are estimations.Quote:
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not to their own facts.
I can understand the government lockdowns on Holocaust denial, as it is very easy to cast doubt on much of what is claimed to have happened. Most people do not have the will to do any serious research of their own, and before the internet, did not have the resources either.
Scorned and derided, yes. Jailed, no. I rather like Tribesman's suggestion.
Ajax
I absolutely agree with Tribesman :2thumbsup:
If anyone want proof about jews murdering Poles - read about Salomon Morel or Helena Wolinska.
And if anyone wants evidence of the polish role in helping slaughter the Jews read the SS and German police reports .
Interesting that you mention Morel Krook , who was it who killed his parents and brothers and their families ?
You mind kind of like te German minorities in Poland being expelled and even killed by Soviet and Polish troops?Quote:
Originally Posted by KrooK
Noooooooo that was the Jews , don't you know that they are responsible for not only communism and capitalism but Polish nationalism too .Quote:
You mind kind of like te German minorities in Poland being expelled and even killed by Soviet and Polish troops?
Numerous facts supporting the systematic murder through negligence and overt execution of thousands upon thousands of people labeled as "undesireables" by the Nazi regime have surfaced. Yes, a number of the figures associated with the scope of the "Final Solution" are estimates based on these known facts rather than verified facts of themeselves. However, quibbling over the accuracy of estimates of the number of Jews versus Gypsies killed and the like is akin to re-arranging deck chairs on the SS Titanic -- it may be a laudable search for precision, but you are REALLY missing the larger point.Quote:
Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger
Well, exact Holocaust numbers are the realm of educated historians to debate. If they want to debate where between five and seven million the exact number was, they have every right to do so. It is pointless, because we will never know the exact number, but it's not Holocaust denial, it's not missing the larger point, and it can be done without any disrespect to Jews. I don't think Panzer is questioning the Holocaust, just stating that all numbers are not 100% accurate - which is true. The difference between, say, six million and five million nine hundred thousand is pretty inconsequential.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
I hope my point is understood properly.
Oh, and by the way, I found my earlier article:
http://www.news24.com/News24/World/N...303811,00.html
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...14/2215799.htm
The Holocaust was, in this case, being exploited by the organizers of this train, who called the Deutsche Bahn head a Nazi simply because he refused to massively disrupt the train schedule in Berlin for a moving Holocaust museum.
It should never be illegal to hold an opinion, however misguided that opinion may be.
Deniaaaaaaar!!
:gah:Quote:
Originally Posted by GoreBag
Difference beetwen Poland and Israel
Poles who were killing Jewish civilians are criminals here (however I have big respect for Poles who were killing jewish and non jewish members of NKWD). Jews who were killing Poles and German civilians are heroes of Israel.
Its truth that Morel killed mostly German civilians or people accused of supporting Germans. However he killed civilians and should be sentenced for that. He has not been due to help given by jewish state.
Who killed Morels brother - polish communists. Why? Because Morel and his brother organised band of criminals who robbed Polish civilians and polish communits catched that band (during WW2 all polish resistance was not only fighting with Germans, but with criminals too). Why Morel has not been killed - he put blame on his brother.
Of course into enlish Wikipedia (this edited by english language Jews) its being written that Morel has been into Auschwitz. However no one saw him there and dozens of people saw him not into Auschwitz.
All in all I think I ought to change my mind. Holocaust denials should be jailed only if Jews stop denying their crimes.
Well if anyone had any doubts that krook is a raving anti semite I am sure they are now thoroughly dispelled .
Though of course it does raise the question , are Nazis just stupid or is it a form of mental illness that they cannot help , or perhaps a combination of the two .
BTW just to point out more crap Krooks claim about the worldwide jewish conspiracy editing wikipedia is slightly undermined by most editing of the article being done by Indians and Poles .
Then again given the nature of the tripe he wrote that doesn't really need pointing out ...bloody Nazis aren't they strange .
Why you who is trying to put mental illness on nazis when irish are war criminels against inglish? before you trying to put into pole what is irish you should take big pole out of your own behind?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
And no such thing as bloody nasiz they are all crispy clean becuase they waipe blood of clothes always
Fixed for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
Louis that is really good :2thumbsup:
Cruel but good , though of course it does raise the question , does it constitute cruelty to dumb animals ?
OK chaps, jokes are one thing but personal attacks quite another.
Please lay off the latter.
Too much caffiene BG ?Quote:
Please lay off the latte
Perhaps some keks with your coffee
http://www.recipelink.com/mf/21/84
There is always a place for fruitcakes , an airtight tin is a good place to keep them .
That's right, folks. Get the thread locked, give Krook an excuse to feel a martyr.
:shame:Quote:
The Guild expects its patrons to remain civil even in the face of disagreements. Any kind of "flaming", slurs or insults adressed to an individual or a group is extremely inappropriate. Please respect etiquette at all times.
Three pages of people dismissing historical revisionism in the harshest of terms. Agreeing that public ridicule is a good counter-measure. Yet, when revisionism presents itself in fact, not in theory, and is duly satirised, people panic?
The .org is not for flame wars, nor should I take baits. But I've also been taught not to remain silent in the face of revisionism. It could be argued that the odd harsh satire and ridicule of revisionism might, in fact, be a proper reaction.
One can ridicule his views, not his person.Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
OK, so since when am I a moderator?
I know I'm not. I am just a member stating my view.
Oui papa. :shame:Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian II
Some evil supernatural force stole my ability to write coherent English some time ago. It's just gone, my pen has abandoned me, my mind restracted itself in a monolinguistic state. And satire needs to be a chrystal clear, razorsharp precision instrument. It is not to be wielded as a blunt sword by the incompetent. :embarassed:
I'll go and rewatch my Blackadder DVD's before another attempt at biting satire.
That was the Jews, they always do things like that , you are lucky they just stole it they could well have murdered you , in fact they would have murdered you if you was Polish .Quote:
Some evil supernatural force stole my ability to write coherent English some time ago.
I would disagree with the common negative connotation of historical revisionism. The definition of historical revisionism is the critical reexamination of historical facts. There's nothing wrong with revisionism, as long as it is done in an educated manner by educated historians, as I have stated before.Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
Goofwad sums it up quite nicely with this post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goofball
Indeed. Satire, as Louis so wisely states, should be a rapier not a cosh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian II
The quite extraordinary thing about this forum - and especially the Backroom - is that most members are moderators - in behaviour and expectation. That is, the level of personal responsibility and politeness alongside a gentle respect for others is astonishingly high and mostly requires naught more from those of us cursed with the tea towel than an occasional tap on the tiller.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian II
I guess this is an appropriate place to state how grateful I am for that consideration and thus how pleasant it makes this job.
:bow:
Probably. :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
Now, back to topic you varmints! :beadyeyes2:
So now , since there is general agreement that idiots should not be jailed for their views it does raise the question , how do you put an idiot in the pillory without making it personal ?Quote:
Now, back to topic you varmints!