Should Holocaust deniars be jailed?

[Odin]

1. Well, it is tough for me. On one hand, jailing someone for an opinion, stupid as it may be, kind of blows in the face of "Free speech". On the other hand, this is an existing law put in place by a democratic government, and is (not to sure, if Husar would like to correct) open for amendment, this means that the people who do get jailed for this knowingly and willingly break a law put in place. And then there's wether or not people have this opinion because of poor education, or they use this to incite racial hatred and dissent.

2. Yes. I have posed this question to many before, and a lot of the answers I get contains the words "Insensitive", "Nazi", and "Racists". Therefore, this is the first time I really got the answer "People should not be jailed for opinion, even if it is stupid" especially when it comes to the Holocaust.

3. Simple question.

Thank you for the timely and direct reply, I appreciate it.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

They shouldn't be jailed , they should be pilloried for their views, the entertainment value would be massive .

I can see it now: Sieg *cabbage to the face*

[Adrian II]

Nice to see you around, Odin.

Yes, that too.

[Odin]

Yes, that too.

You EU boys always make me blush....

[KarlXII]

Thank you for the timely and direct reply, I appreciate it.

No rebuttals?

[KrooK]

Yep = same like deniars of soviet crimes and jewish crimes.

[CountArach]

Yep = same like deniars of soviet crimes and jewish crimes.

Why is that?

[KarlXII]

Yep = same like deniars of soviet crimes and jewish crimes.

Please, don't post. I do not wish this thread to be locked.

Edit: Unless you can give me some non biased evidence of "Jewish crimes" then I will take the comment as a kind of anti Semetism, and even though I agree that the USSR had crimes, due to past reading, I will view the comment anti Russian as well

[Tribesman]

Yep = same like deniars of Polish crimes

[CountArach]

Haha Tribsey

[KarlXII]

Win, but I see where this will go, unfortunately.

[HoreTore]

I can see it now: Sieg *cabbage to the face*

Personally, I've always been a big fan of smacking when it comes to dealing with the politically retarded...

[JR-]

I have noticed that those who apparently publically deny the Holocaust are fined and even jailed. Now, to the point, should Holocaust deniars be jailed for this?

no they should not.

[Dâriûsh]

Edit: Unless you can give me some non biased evidence of "Jewish crimes" then I will take the comment as a kind of anti Semetism

Maybe our friend meant Meyer Lansky?

[Odin]

Maybe our friend meant Meyer Lansky?

Maybe he did, but why anyone would want to shut up Krook is beyond me. He is by far one of the most entertaining backroom goers we have and should be considered for senior membership for his well thought out contributions.

[Don Corleone]

Odin, cant' believe I haven't said this before, but welcome back from the Long Dark Night we all wander into from time to time. Good to have you back. I credit my rudeness to an enduring disbelief that you were ever really gone.

I'm going the EA route and making an argument for outlawing holocaust denial (though I personally think you turn the lights on cockroaches, not stamp your feet and make them run & hide).

Our grandfathers weren't idiots. They had just witnessed one of the worst wars in mankind's history, and in absolute scale, it was the worst. But I think what scared them the absolute most was how thinking, rational people in Germany, Austria and other places could have been led to such a place (no offense to my German and Austrian friends. There were plenty of Nazis in the US in the 30's).

The violence rattled them, surely, but the ideas that had been pressed through Goebel's information machine and accepted as unassailable facts, this terrified them more than anything they had ever known. It would be as though after getting into Kabul, we learned that the Taliban had convinced the Afghans that the Sun was a death ray put in the sky by the USA, and therefore they only came out at night.

I think the legal minds of the time reacted rather strongly to this phenomenon. They wanted to make certain another Ministry for Public Enlightenment (Goebbel's little after-school club) could never come to pass. The laws against the Holocaust are as much laws against Gleichschaltung as anything else. And when you look at what they were able to accomplish in 15 short years, you understand why our grandfathers had the reaction they did. It happened so quickly, so thoroughly, and so beyond the bounds of human reason, our grandfathers were terrified about propaganda and misuse of information. Laws against denying the holocaust were seen as a 'canary in the coal-mine' if you will. So I understand them. I think their time has come and gone, however.

[Odin]

Odin, cant' believe I haven't said this before, but welcome back from the Long Dark Night we all wander into from time to time. Good to have you back. I credit my rudeness to an enduring disbelief that you were ever really gone.

Thanks Don, you are still one of only a few people here that can reel me in via a PM and make me exhale.

[Sarmatian]

What everybody else said on the issue.

On a similar issue, what do you say about those guys that don't question the holocaust but the numbers? Is there a point to that? Does it make a difference whether it was 2 millions, 5 millions or 10 millions?

And is holocaust being exploited, to portray Jews as perpetual victims and give them more "manouvering space" today? Just wondering what makes Jews so special? Slavs were treated in very similar way, and in the end around 30 million Slavs was killed. Russian, Poles etc... Or the Chinese. How many of them were massacred?

I remember talking to some friends who were in Berlin as part of some student exchange organization and made a nice presentation about the city. They said that several years ago a cemetary was built that was supposed to be a memorial for all victims of the WW2. But under pressure, it was changed to exclusively Jewish memorial, although one already exists in Berlin.

Bottom line, are Jewish victims put before other victims? And if they are, do you think that is ok?

P.S. Should this be a separate thread?

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

On a similar issue, what do you say about those guys that don't question the holocaust but the numbers? Is there a point to that? Does it make a difference whether it was 2 millions, 5 millions or 10 millions?

Historical fact always needs questioning and confirmation, if it is done in an educated manner. It's still just as terrible no matter how many millions were killed.

And is holocaust being exploited, to portray Jews as perpetual victims and give them more "manouvering space" today?

Yes, it is. Indeed. There was an interesting incident with the DB a while back...I'll try to find a link.

[El Diablo]

And is holocaust being exploited, to portray Jews as perpetual victims and give them more "manouvering space" today?

I think that most countires/cultures/religions/races can use examples in history to plead that they were hard done by. Hell throw sex in there as well as woman have been oppressed as well.

But this kind of looking back just breeds more of the same in my opinion. The situation in Northern Ireland is an example. He did A to me - yeah because you did B to me - well I did that beacuse you did C and so on...

I do not think that anyone, German or otherwise (barring those that committed it) have to say sorry for the holocaust. This huge guilt, for an act commited so long ago that it will soon pass from memory to history, to be placed on a people that were not even born is pathetic.

Yes, learn about it in schools so that it (hopefully) will never happen again but feel no guilt.

I feel no guilt for the atomic bombs dropped on Japan in the war by my countries allies, I feel no guilt for the fire bombing of Dresden by the country my mother was born in. I am sad these things happened - but it is history now. Build a bridge and get over it.

Yes this may sound cold and heartless, but it is not. I genually feel sad and regret that these things happened. I just don't feel guilty. Does this make sence or is the meaning lost in my writing?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I think Tribesman is on the right track here.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not to their own facts.

Propounding a view that denies acknowledged and verified facts -- though I do not believe it should be criminal -- provides the listener with an easy means of evaluating the contributions made. Such voluntary proof of idiocy does, I agree, warrant ridicule.

[PanzerJaeger]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not to their own facts.

The problem is that many of the facts are not actually facts, but are estimations.

I can understand the government lockdowns on Holocaust denial, as it is very easy to cast doubt on much of what is claimed to have happened. Most people do not have the will to do any serious research of their own, and before the internet, did not have the resources either.

[ajaxfetish]

Scorned and derided, yes. Jailed, no. I rather like Tribesman's suggestion.

Ajax

[KrooK]

I absolutely agree with Tribesman

If anyone want proof about jews murdering Poles - read about Salomon Morel or Helena Wolinska.

[Tribesman]

And if anyone wants evidence of the polish role in helping slaughter the Jews read the SS and German police reports .
Interesting that you mention Morel Krook , who was it who killed his parents and brothers and their families ?

[KarlXII]

I absolutely agree with Tribesman

If anyone want proof about jews murdering Poles - read about Salomon Morel or Helena Wolinska.

You mind kind of like te German minorities in Poland being expelled and even killed by Soviet and Polish troops?

[Tribesman]

You mind kind of like te German minorities in Poland being expelled and even killed by Soviet and Polish troops?

Noooooooo that was the Jews , don't you know that they are responsible for not only communism and capitalism but Polish nationalism too .

[Seamus Fermanagh]

The problem is that many of the facts are not actually facts, but are estimations.

I can understand the government lockdowns on Holocaust denial, as it is very easy to cast doubt on much of what is claimed to have happened. Most people do not have the will to do any serious research of their own, and before the internet, did not have the resources either.

Numerous facts supporting the systematic murder through negligence and overt execution of thousands upon thousands of people labeled as "undesireables" by the Nazi regime have surfaced. Yes, a number of the figures associated with the scope of the "Final Solution" are estimates based on these known facts rather than verified facts of themeselves. However, quibbling over the accuracy of estimates of the number of Jews versus Gypsies killed and the like is akin to re-arranging deck chairs on the SS Titanic -- it may be a laudable search for precision, but you are REALLY missing the larger point.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Numerous facts supporting the systematic murder through negligence and overt execution of thousands upon thousands of people labeled as "undesireables" by the Nazi regime have surfaced. Yes, a number of the figures associated with the scope of the "Final Solution" are estimates based on these known facts rather than verified facts of themeselves. However, quibbling over the accuracy of estimates of the number of Jews versus Gypsies killed and the like is akin to re-arranging deck chairs on the SS Titanic -- it may be a laudable search for precision, but you are REALLY missing the larger point.

Well, exact Holocaust numbers are the realm of educated historians to debate. If they want to debate where between five and seven million the exact number was, they have every right to do so. It is pointless, because we will never know the exact number, but it's not Holocaust denial, it's not missing the larger point, and it can be done without any disrespect to Jews. I don't think Panzer is questioning the Holocaust, just stating that all numbers are not 100% accurate - which is true. The difference between, say, six million and five million nine hundred thousand is pretty inconsequential.

I hope my point is understood properly.


Oh, and by the way, I found my earlier article:

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/N...303811,00.html

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...14/2215799.htm

The Holocaust was, in this case, being exploited by the organizers of this train, who called the Deutsche Bahn head a Nazi simply because he refused to massively disrupt the train schedule in Berlin for a moving Holocaust museum.

[Goofball]

It should never be illegal to hold an opinion, however misguided that opinion may be.