Do you use Client Rulers and recruitable Generals?

My trials and tribulations with a host of bugs related to cloned AI Client Rulers have brought me to this very question. It may be that my extensive use of Client Rulers and recruitable mercenary generals is atypical. As in most people don't bother.

The two are included together, because you can't really have one without the other. Unless you've had a typeIV government (which of course automatically spawns a client ruler - who is technically a general), you can't build the fifth tier of regional barracks which enables the recruitment of mercenary Generals.

In the only way I can gauge such a thing, I thought of a poll. Feel free to comment on how/why you use them or don't.

I don't use client rulers early in my game when I have more family members than I have settlements. I can put at least one family member in each settlement as the governor, and then use the rest as army commanders.

But later when I expand too fast, or come into situations where my family members die out too quick to be replaced, I set up very few type IV settlements for producing generals - for the purpose of providing emergency governors or commanders (though if that mercenacry general turned out to be very effective at managing a settlement I let him remain as governor instead of letting my family member take over).

I have made Equites Consulares recruitable in Rome and use these pretty much everytime playing the Romans my Empire expands beyond what could be staffed with gouvernors form the family tree. Thanks to hundreds of Senators and dozends of ex-magistrates, the Romans would have always been able to send (more or less) suitable members of the ruling class to every province.

Use Client Rulers all the time. I love them. I've never had any problems with them except for when I used the speed-up script.

Mercenary Generals very rarely - only when I have a mainly regional troop army to lead.

I haven't used any recruitable generals in my current Seleukid campaign so far, but I have in all my Roman campaigns. Client rulers are a main stay of my government, though.

I, too, am very fond of both client rulers and mercenary generals, it is a great innovation by EB and I am grateful for the feature every time I play; when at all possible I try to insert them historically; under different circumstances I use them where it seems plausible. The generals are most for the fun and role-play of leading allied armies of foreign units.
I´ve never had any problems with them besides the occasional need for a manual add_trait "..." Type4Governor.

I use both, mainly for roleplaying I.E. type 4 settlements are counted as separate nations with their own armies and generals.

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Originally Posted by Skandinav

I, too, am very fond of client rulers, it is a great innovation by EB and I am grateful for the feature every time I play; when at all possible I try to insert them historically; under different circumstances I use them where it seems plausible.
I´ve never had any problems with them besides the occasional need for a manual add_trait "..." Type4Governor.

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Now the latter is something I never considered using. In my current game I deleted the client ruler section of the script, which has made things a lot more stable. Using that I could turn generals into client rulers and use type IV goverments again.

I use client rulers, mostly because I don't know how to disable them. In my Roman campaign they stopped getting the trait halfway through the game so every time I build a lvl 4 gov I get an interloper if I don't park him outside the city and hope he dies from a cold during the winter :D

I'm one of those cheats that start by building a lvl 4 if I can use the lvl5 native MIC, then change governments when it's done. Don't judge me :)

The client rulers and rectruitable generals were a cool addition, but unfortunately it seems like they ruin the game (ctds) more than they add to the fun.

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Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius

Now the latter is something I never considered using. In my current game I deleted the client ruler section of the script, which has made things a lot more stable. Using that I could turn generals into client rulers and use type IV goverments again.

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When doing so, press up or back or something when first opening the console after a new client ruler has been given to you upon finishing building a new client state, you will then get his internal name displayed instead of having to search for it.

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Originally Posted by Hegix

I use client rulers, mostly because I don't know how to disable them.

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Easier to fix than you'd think, literally just delete that section from the script. Takes a minute or so if you click where it starts, hold shift, scroll down to where it ends, click there and press delete.

Now changing the Interloper business is more work, I didn't bother with that.

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Originally Posted by Hegix

I'm one of those cheats that start by building a lvl 4 if I can use the lvl5 native MIC, then change governments when it's done. Don't judge me :)

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If it's any consolation, I do the same. Although in my present game, only in my capital, where it made sense that I could recruit mercenary generals there.

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Originally Posted by Hegix

The client rulers and rectruitable generals were a cool addition, but unfortunately it seems like they ruin the game (ctds) more than they add to the fun.

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Agreed, I love the idea of them and how they work. Not so keen on how they seem to nerf my game, though. Which is why I took the drastic step of just removing them.

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Originally Posted by Skandinav

When doing so, press up or back or something when first opening the console after a new client ruler has been given to you upon finishing building a new client state, you will then get his internal name displayed instead of having to search for it.

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I took the spawning bit out of the script, so I can't do that. In any case as Epeiros at least, generals have the same internal name as external, so easily done.

I never use Generals and use Client Rulers mostly just if I really want a regional MIC5 in a province or if there's no other way to get public order high enough to avoid rebellion.

I'm playing mostly barbarian and hellenistic factions. As barbarians I often don't have enough money for generals. I'm also still convinced that Generals do affect birth rates, so I'm afraid of using them in my hellenistic campaigns where they could interfere with my dynastic plans.

I also tend to change the gov from lvl4 to something better after a while since the building options are not that good. In the later game, with only large cities, more public order buildings are really welcome.

I' m also currently testing a script without client rulers. I never had that many CTDs and only one clone, but the game does seems more stable and a lot faster.
I left the Interloper trait in however, so that I can't use good gouvernors in lvl4 cities.

Unfortunately, the primary statement doesnot apply to me. As stated in an earlier post, I had disassociated the gov4 structure, and had deleted the complete client script.

I now use the following formula:
Gov1 native5 and regional3

Gov2 native4 and regional4

Gov3 native3 and regional5

and I have been using mercenary generals using process_cq throughout.

The good news is that mercenary generals along with a disassociated gov4 has lead to Zero CTDs. This includes adoptions as well.

yes you got that right Zero CTDs since April 30.

Ps. I count to hundred at the end of every battle, before clicking on the victory screen.:2thumbsup:

Yep, thats my solitary vote.

so , can we have client rulers without the client ruler script!? :surprised: that would be awesome!! :beam:

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Originally Posted by ||Lz3||

so , can we have client rulers without the client ruler script!? :surprised: that would be awesome!! :beam:

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Sort of; as long as you can recruit a mercenary general you can give them the Client Ruler trait. I think giving it to an FM might cause problems.

What would be the exact command to give the client ruler trait to a general?

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Originally Posted by danielc

What would be the exact command to give the client ruler trait to a general?

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As Skandinav said open the console and type:
give_trait "[firstname lastname]" Type4Governor

sweet... :beam: now I'm only waiting a reponse from bovi, if I can erase the client ruler part from lordbula's script

I guess it's a little more difficult with roman names though

Would it be possible to put some sort of disabling marker in the script to make it just ignore the client ruler section, without having to remove it entirely?

Of course, I guess I could always just make a copy before messing with it... but for argument's sake, would the above be possible?

Yes, you have to place comment character ';' at the beginning of each line in client ruler script section.

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I'm only waiting a reponse from bovi, if I can erase the client ruler part from lordbula's script

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Yes you can. It will stop script spawning of characters ( everything else will work so if you recruit general and put him in govIV settlement for 1full turn he will become new client ruler )

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Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius

As Skandinav said open the console and type:
give_trait "[firstname lastname]" Type4Governor

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Thank you!

Though I selected "don't use either", that's not precisely true. I do make a minimal but nonzero use of Type IVs in outlying areas. If I ever get the regional MICs up to level 5 I might recruit a general or two just for fun, but odds are I'll achieve the campaign victory conditions (finally!) first.

I'm playing 1.0, so maybe this changed, but I'm quite unimpressed by client rulers, primarily because they can't sally on the first turn of a siege. I've read that they can sally, so I infer that the script lets them move after the siege has been in place for a full turn, or something like that. So RPing a Judean client state was an error - now I have to keep a ~half stack field army next to the city to trigger a battle whenever the next Ptolemaic suicide squad comes along.

Seeing the client general in combat - he's OK, nice big unit, but not as good as the heavy cav I can recruit normally.

The ability to recruit generals isn't a big deal in EB; I always have lots of FM, and if there's a temporary shortage I'm happy to just sit in place until the next teenager finishes his education to lead the next offensive. EB is an incredibly long campaign, no harm letting 5-10 years pass uneventfully. If the recruitable generals were significantly different from normal FM they'd be more appealing. So I could see KH using IVs to get cavalry generals, or other factions getting infantry generals if that's possible (Gallic provinces offer those, right?). From what I've read, Casse must love IVs... ~:)

Well I build type 4's rarely, usually with a specific sort of r/p house rule in mind. Eg I usually have an independent gallic kingdom in Ankara and Tylis, or a Skythian one at Olbia. Once I have them I allow myself to hire the appropriate mercs (their king has "lent" me some troops), so I try to grab an Hai city befoerwe I hire Georgian inf, or a steppe city before I hire HA mercs etc. Also I can raise local allied forces as police/garrison and elites for my FL, and build merc generals once the MIC is maxed to lead out an "allied army" (usually to go hunting for a similar kingdom to found, eg Ankara wants Tylis, Olbia wants the crimea or Tanais to found another type 4).

So I build a few clients, and fewer mercs. I have a secret wish to build an army of generals, say 4 Verrix, 4 germans, 4 Nomad generals and 4 Hellenistic or Eastern mercs for a nice balanced force. Do they get 2 hp like FM's? I forget.

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Originally Posted by Cyclops

So I build a few clients, and fewer mercs. I have a secret wish to build an army of generals, say 4 Verrix, 4 germans, 4 Nomad generals and 4 Hellenistic or Eastern mercs for a nice balanced force. Do they get 2 hp like FM's? I forget.

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Family Members' bodyguards don't get two hit points, they've only got one. The officers and the actual FM have more hit points, but that's hardcoded.

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Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius

Easier to fix than you'd think, literally just delete that section from the script. Takes a minute or so if you click where it starts, hold shift, scroll down to where it ends, click there and press delete.

Now changing the Interloper business is more work, I didn't bother with that.

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Basically the same: Open EDCT, search for the triggers pointing to that trait and delete them. No one should get the trait now. (not save-game compatible!)

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Originally Posted by konny

Basically the same: Open EDCT, search for the triggers pointing to that trait and delete them. No one should get the trait now. (not save-game compatible!)

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I opened it and did the search, then gave up when I realised it would take a lot more effort than deleting the client ruler section of the script did.

Now there's even an easy solution with being able to give a general the Client Ruler trait.

Interesting, basically client rulers are used a bit, but generals not so much.

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Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius

Interesting, basically client rulers are used a bit, but generals not so much.

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Most people install the highest government level that is possible in a region, plus getting to a level 5 barracks costs a lot, and in some if not the majority of cases, the only unit recruitable there is the general. So I figure most people don't bother.

I use client rulers heavily at the first half of the game.

Typically I follow QS's houserules closely. I don't worry about conquering too early because every conquered settlement gets a client ruler installed, and the settlement is ruled autonomously in every fashion. Thus, it is still an independent state, and vassal ally. I don't even move spies or assasins into the cities to add challenge. I don't bump up the govt. until the CR is dead, allowing for the settlement to fully stabalize itself and have some ready-to-go components (roads, military, some minor economy) already installed by the time the FM shows up.

Thus, romanization can take 20-25 years, thus, I can conquer much earlier with less guilt.

Once the late republic gets started, there are never enough FM's to go around, this is when I turn to recuitable generals

I used client rulers but lately they are all developing the nasty trait of "interloper".

Is there any way to solve this?

on the flip side.

i just started a new romani campaign using konny's houserules, and i must say that it makes more sense. the provinces develop much easier and you economy doesn't take such a nasty hit.

A type four government is nothing more than a permanent alliance with a small settlement. just as if you were allying with a large faction, you must pay a tribute/bribe to keep the ally happy with you and doing your bidding. The same is true with a type IV govt: you are paying the client ruler to keep the settlement in check for you. The fees of keeping up a client ruler is negligible; however, more than 3 can be taxing esp. when you are trying to expand or at war with a competitive faction.

my best advice is to not use a type IV unless you NEED it. they are really expensive to keep up and are nothing more than a sure-fire way to make (and keep) an alliance.

On my last Roman game, I never found the expense of client rulers to be a big deal at all. And I had a lot of them. Literally every new province would get one, and I'd progress through the government types at 30-year intervals.

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Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius

On my last Roman game, I never found the expense of client rulers to be a big deal at all. And I had a lot of them. Literally every new province would get one, and I'd progress through the government types at 30-year intervals.

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Yeah, but Rome has a strong economy. Then again, if you expand so much that your client rulers become a big upkeep, you should also have a strong economy as a result of that expansion (or you've been expanding into the desert or something).

I'd like to know what roleplay excuses you employ to change your lvl 4 gov to something above. After all it is an allied state, where you don't have any rights officially. People might know that they have to obey Makedonia or your respective faction, but they still consider themselves independent.

For example, yesterday the client ruler of Mytilene died. What I generally do is to destroy the gov building, move the garrison out and set the taxes to very high. Normally that makes for a good riot, but unfortunately it didn't work so I voluntarily destroyed the Temple to Asklepios and the Askleipion of the city. that brought me my riot, and the subsequent turn I took a general and let him march into the city. Now I ordered a lvl 2 gov.

So I roleplayed that Makedonia, as the "good shepherd and protector of the people of Lesbos", took the initiative and marched into the city, to re-establish "the good order etc.". So how do you do it?

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Originally Posted by Centurio Nixalsverdrus

I'd like to know what roleplay excuses you employ to change your lvl 4 gov to something above. After all it is an allied state, where you don't have any rights officially. People might know that they have to obey Makedonia or your respective faction, but they still consider themselves independent.

For example, yesterday the client ruler of Mytilene died. What I generally do is to destroy the gov building, move the garrison out and set the taxes to very high. Normally that makes for a good riot, but unfortunately it didn't work so I voluntarily destroyed the Temple to Asklepios and the Askleipion of the city. that brought me my riot, and the subsequent turn I took a general and let him march into the city. Now I ordered a lvl 2 gov.

So I roleplayed that Makedonia, as the "good shepherd and protector of the people of Lesbos", took the initiative and marched into the city, to re-establish "the good order etc.". So how do you do it?

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I use the govt buildings as depictions of how we treat non-hellenic people. Changing govt one level up then means increasing hellenization or something. It's not something I pay a lot of attention to, though, much like I don't do to other buildings. I usually build a L3 when the first client ruler is dead, and a L2/1 when I need it (as in no more construction options or need a different barracks). Sometimes I install a second client ruler.

ok so now I have a plan... erase client ruler script section , and everytime I conquer a new settlement I'll cheat to build level 5 barracks , recruit a general , destroy the barracks and then remove any extra mnai I might have gained :idea2:

so I'll be able to roleplay while keeping the AI to recruit them :beam:

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Originally Posted by bigmilt16

on the flip side.
i just started a new romani campaign using konny's houserules, and i must say that it makes more sense. the provinces develop much easier and you economy doesn't take such a nasty hit.

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you mean making equites consulares recruitable?

Quintus I've a question you surely have a lot of experience in this matter :sweatdrop:

say I've a general called Cnaevs Fabivs Ambvstvs , what would be his name? "CnaevsA Romanvs" or Cnaevs Fabivsambvstvs" ?

EDIT: nevermind it was:

give_trait "CnaevsE Romanvs" Type4Governor

both are widely used: in my AS campaign for example, I had 10 trained genreals, another 5-8 clients, and lots of other things by 205BC (when I won).

In IBFD, its even more pronunced a trend: my best general was trained (a guy named Asparus); he is legendary to this day (one of only 3 10 star generals I ever had; if only those F***ers the WRE didn't attack him at sea). 50% of all IBFD generals by 442AD (when I won), were trained.

My client rulers nearly always end up with the Impostor trait because I inevitably upgrade to type I or II government after the province has been developed as far as possible. I love using these guys, they can make a big difference if the garrison gets attacked but also they can become good earners too.

Normally i don't use client rulers but during a terrible war with Macadonia (as Romanii) i had to use the last of my reserves cuz Maca had like toooooo many fullstacks. Mind you i didnt start the war, but took a border town from the Getai. Maca was even my ally!!!!

But i started winning and had to little time to establish gov II's and had not enough FM's so i started building gov IV's. Now the whole of Greece is ruled by client rulers. So if needed i use them extensivly.

Merc. Generals i use as fireman to plug holes in my limes. If the need is there my two Merc. Generals are there to try to fix a border dispute or slow down the enemy till the legion or consular army (if needed) can take over the war or battle.

My two cents.....