Geert Wilders interview

Geert Wilders is the Dutch politician responsible for the controversial Fitna film comparing the Koran to Mein Kampf, and our own Fragony often refers to his views with some admiration. Since I don't speak or read Dutch, it has been difficult for me to get a balanced view on this gentleman's actual stance - and when someone is accused of the sort of racism apportioned to Mr Wilders, nuance is important - at least to me.

As I've noted before, I have some sympathy for Fragony's views on multiculturalism and its potential for conflict, but somewhat less for the generalisations and simplifications that often attend. When I came across this BBC Radio 4 interview with the fellow, it therefore presented a chance to further my understanding. I offer it here in case anyone else might be intrigued.

In short, I can understand where Mr Wilders is coming from, but find him utterly unconvincing because of his blanket characterisation of a complex problem. It is interesting to speculate with the interviewer about the origin of his opinions, and also to hear his misunderstandings being addressed. I suppose the disconcerting thing for me is the utter certainty with which Mr Wilders presents. There is no shadow upon his conviction, no hint of shades of grey, and no doubt in his absolute mission. Whilst making allowances for his profession, it still disturbs me to hear such absolutism - so he does not persuade, and loses his valid points in a surge of unbending assurance. However, he is not (at least on this evidence) a ranting demagogue.

BBC Radio 4 Listen Again: The Choice (right hand sidebar).

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However, he is not (at least on this evidence) a ranting demagogue.

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perhaps the description is more along the lines of alarmist prick who buries any real message about real issues with his paranoid and closed minded absolutist nonsense .

My baby :yes:

He keeps you awake at night?

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Originally Posted by Geoffrey S

He keeps you awake at night?

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Beats being asleep all day :yes:

Ah well, let me give me opinion it's a forum after all. Geert Wilders is a political troll, he makes outragious statements and it's hilarious to see how other politicians react, oh the holy indignation. He is shooting at the wrong folks though, he shouldn't be shooting at the muslims he should be shooting at the multicultural left. Only a complete idiot falls for the islam is peace crap, but without the cult it would be insignificant. But keep shooting mia muca, I don't really care who he hits as long as he shoots. He goes too far but he got my vote anyway.

You like him because he's a windbag?

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Originally Posted by CrossLOPER

You like him because he's a windbag?

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To heal you must hurt sometimes. I don't agree with him, there isn't such a thing such as a book that turns people into mindless killers, in a way mr Wilders has more faith in the quran then the average muslim. But on the other side you have the lefties who are so sick with multicultural desire that they leave a slippery trail all the way to the mosk whenever the muslims ask for something. That has got to stop and one extreme can outweight the other, so I conveniently vote for mr Wilders. He is no Fortuyn but he will just have to do for now.

So you like him because he's a rightist windbag? :smartass:

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Originally Posted by CrossLOPER

So you like him because he's a rightist windbag? :smartass:

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With an awfull hairdo.

Personally I can't stand the guy though Frag. While you need to have balance, and you need someone to point out problems. However when pointing out problems it would always be nice, if one points out the actual problems, and in decent manner. He's just an ***. Now, I didn'lt Fortuyn that much at all either, but at least he had some decency at times, and wasn't blind and stupid.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Beats being asleep all day :yes:

Ah well, let me give me opinion it's a forum after all. Geert Wilders is a political troll, he makes outragious statements and it's hilarious to see how other politicians react, oh the holy indignation. He is shooting at the wrong folks though, he shouldn't be shooting at the muslims he should be shooting at the multicultural left. Only a complete idiot falls for the islam is peace crap, but without the cult it would be insignificant. But keep shooting mia muca, I don't really care who he hits as long as he shoots. He goes too far but he got my vote anyway.

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Islam isn't violent. Just because there's a bunch of Muslim fanatics out there right now means nothing. Hell, don't you remember the reason they hate us to begin with? For about 1700+ years, Christianity had the most violent followers on the planet. Doesn't mean that Christianity is a violent religion, does it?

And anyway, what's wrong with saying, hey, maybe we shouldn't burn people alive because they don't eat crackers on Sunday?

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Originally Posted by Reverend Joe

Islam isn't violent.

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Well, he said it wasn't peace. :eyebrows:

Perhaps avoiding labelling ideologies as absolutely one thing or the other is teh betters.

OT; for some reason I don't feel like listening to the clip.

I'll start my admitting that I didn't view the interview in the original post. Not much chance there's anything unfamiliar in it. If you're interested, there's a video of an interview he did for Fox News on his party's website (that I watched for a few minutes before I got bored)

As far as media coverage and his treatment by "fellow" politicians go, Wilders is a glorified enfant terrible.
But in regards to the voting market, Wilders fills a niche. It's very telling that he was originally booted out of his previous party (the VVD; socially liberal but otherwise right wing) because he refused to conform to the party line in regards to Turkey's future accession to the EU. I'm pretty much on Fragony's side on this one, I think having Wilders around is probably a healthy thing. No chance I'll ever vote for him, of course.

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Originally Posted by Reverend Joe

Islam isn't violent.

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Disagree! Even when muslims aren't lashing out externally, the institution promotes and supports appalling violence within.

God bless Mr Wilders. If only other Euros had the testicular fortitude this man does.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

Disagree! Even when _________ aren't lashing out externally, the institution promotes and supports appalling violence within.

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Fill in the blank!

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Originally Posted by Fragony

He is shooting at the wrong folks though, he shouldn't be shooting at the muslims he should be shooting at the multicultural left.

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That's my boy. :2thumbsup:

Novel on prophet's wife pulled for fear of backlashWhat is this? The 1930's? Novels pulled out of fear? How long until these dhimmis demand entrance to our libraries and art museums to burn and censor anything that might offend someone somewhere?
These dhimmis give Muslims a bad reputation like this.

Has Wilders' movie been broadcast on any Dutch televison channel yet, Fragony? Or are they still censoring the works of their own politicians? Are the Dutch still reduced to the level of Birmese and Zimbabweans - that is, relying on the internet to find out the political program of their government's opposition?

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Originally Posted by CrossLOPER

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

Disagree! Even when _________ aren't lashing out externally, the institution promotes and supports appalling violence within.

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Fill in the blank!

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Fascists? ~;p


(And communists. And, indeed, totalitarian religions.)

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God bless Mr Wilders. If only other Euros had the testicular fortitude this man does.

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If only Wilders had a brain and testicular fortitude he might be worth listening to more and taking seriously .

You have to see his value though Tribesman, he is the society's dog whistle, allowing people to release their inherently natural dislike of "others" before it all become too much and boils over.

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Originally Posted by Reverend Joe

Islam isn't violent. Just because there's a bunch of Muslim fanatics out there right now means nothing. Hell, don't you remember the reason they hate us to begin with? For about 1700+ years, Christianity had the most violent followers on the planet. Doesn't mean that Christianity is a violent religion, does it?

And anyway, what's wrong with saying, hey, maybe we shouldn't burn people alive because they don't eat crackers on Sunday?

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You are aware of how Mohammed spread Islam, don't you? And how it spread across a great part of the world after his death, right? And what the Koran says about infidels and apostates and Jews, etc., etc., right?

Oh, wait, you obviously aren't. No, you're obviously just an anti-Christian bigot.

CR

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You have to see his value though Tribesman, he is the society's dog whistle,

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Oh come on , at least Van Gough described himself as the village idiot who might just provoke some thought with his rants , this Wilders plonker really takes himself seriously .
Consider if you will Enoch Powell and then the pillocks that thought they were sending the same message as Enoch .

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You are aware of how Mohammed spread Islam, don't you? And how it spread across a great part of the world after his death, right? And what the Koran says about infidels and apostates and Jews, etc., etc., right?

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An example of one that thinks they are spreading a message with substance .

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Oh, wait, you obviously aren't. No, you're obviously just an anti-Christian bigot.

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A confirmation that the example is very valid .

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Has Wilders' movie been broadcast on any Dutch televison channel yet, Fragony? Or are they still censoring the works of their own politicians? Are the Dutch still reduced to the level of Birmese and Zimbabweans - that is, relying on the internet to find out the political program of their government's opposition?

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Parliament offered Wilders the most prestigious media venue of The Hague for a public showing of his movie, but he declined. He is both too vain and too sensationalist to engage in any sort of debate of his views. He is neither a good debater like Ayaan Hirsi Ali, nor a brilliant jester and artist like Van Gogh. The outcast image of him which you apparently swallowed hook, line and sinker is about Wilders' only asset and he loves to cultivate it.

These things are never as simple as they seem to the ideologically blinded. If you want to see in Mr Wilders a cause célèbre at all costs, feel free. Invite him to France, cuddle him, keep him forever. No one will miss him here, no one will take him seriously in your country either.

The real teagedy is that smart, authentic voices, both Dutch and immigrant, are smothered by this Wilders circus.

The real tragedy is that van Gogh is murdered. That Fortuyn is murdered. That Hirsi Ali was outcasted from the Netherlands.

These are the smart, authentic voices, both Dutch and immigrant, that I would have loved to hear. They're gone...

Wilders then, is what remains. Each country the politicians it deserves. You can keep Wilders though. A village idiot. Not even a proper extreme right politician, but an anti-Islamic fanatic maniac.

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

The real tragedy is that van Gogh is murdered. That Fortuyn is murdered. That Hirsi Ali was outcasted from the Netherlands.

These are the smart, authentic voices, both Dutch and immigrant, that I would have loved to hear. They're gone...

Wilders then, is what remains. Each country the politicians it deserves. You can keep Wilders though. A village idiot. Not even a proper extreme right politician, but an anti-Islamic fanatic maniac.

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Fortuyn's death had nothing to do with Wilders' cause or with Islam as a whole. The fact that you throw him in proves how easily people are confused about these issues.

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

Fortuyn's death had nothing to do with Wilders' cause or with Islam as a whole. The fact that you throw him in proves how easily people are confused about these issues.

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The fact that you do not see a connection proves how confused you still are over these issues. (yay! At last, exchanging YouTube-esque back-and-forth insults on the .org. :jumping:)

Who killed Fortuyn? Not a Muslim. An alarmist extreme leftwinger did. As a pre-emptive strike. Fortuyn, he thought, and this was a common notion, would've plunged the Netherlands into fascism and dictatorship. It the mind of this blinded ideologist, it was 1933 and this was his last change to stop Auschwitz.

Van Gogh was killed by a Muslim. But this was almost incidental. One mistaken fanatic.

Worse is what happened to the co-author of his movie, Hirsi Ali. Chosen one of the world's 100 most influential thinkers. One of the most foremost European Muslims. For both reasons, the Hague should've made an all-out effort to protect her, just to make a statement that Dutch society does not stand for political murder and intimidation.
What happened? Within two years of the murder of Van Gogh, she, a member of parliament no less, was driven away from the Netherlands. By whom? Not by Muslims. By blinded ideologists. Jealous of her status, furious that she, uppity Muslim, did not tow the correct multicultural discourse. Some way to honour Van Gogh. I'd go so far as to say that it was a renewed murder of Van Gogh, commited, again, not by Muslims, but by blinded ideologists.

And if Wilders is ever murdered, driven out, or otherwise censored, again it won't be by Muslims.

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

The fact that you do not see a connection proves how confused you still are over these issues. (yay! At last, exchanging YouTube-esque back-and-forth insults on the .org. :jumping:)

Who killed Fortuyn? Not a Muslim. An alarmist extreme leftwinger did. As a pre-emptive strike. Fortuyn, he thought, and this was a common notion, would've plunged the Netherlands into fascism and dictatorship. It the mind of this blinded ideologist, it was 1933 and this was his last change to stop Auschwitz.

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I don't know where you got all that nonsense.

Fortuyn's killer was a vegan and an animal rights activist. He remained silent for months after the murder and only later, during his trial, came up with various weak motivations calculated to gain some public sympathy which no one, including the judge, found in any way convincing.

Van Gogh's killing was not incidental at all. Various groups of such muslim fanatics have been arrested or broken up ever since.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali on the other hand chose to leave the country because she was about to be stripped of her Dutch citizenship, which she had acquired illegally.

After her voluntary departure to the United States the Dutch government announced it would at some time have to end her government-financed security and she would have to pay for her own security out of her own pocket. In the U.S. this is standard procedure, but she made a huge issue out of it as if she had been cheated out of her civil rights. Once again, the truth of the matter isn't half as dramatic as you make it out to be.

So the only 'incidental, mistaken fanatic' in this affair was actually Fortuyn's killer. On the other hand the threats from muslim fanatics against politicians and opinion leaders such as Van Gogh have continued and are very real. Ayaan Hirsi Ali, finally, wasn't murdered symbolically, but unmasked as a cheater.

So much for perspective. Of course you are free to continue in your merry rambling about unconnected issues and wrong assessments, but I'm afraid it makes you look just as incoherent as Mr Wilders.

You haven't died your hair now, have you, Louis? :mellow:

Hirsi Ali was "booted" because she lied in order to get refugee status. She was born in Somalia but had lived in Kenia, a stable country back then, before coming to Europe. Since too many years had passed since she was acknowledged as a refugee, the status couldn't be revoked. That wasn't true for her citizenship because her naturalization was several years later. Since she didn't lose her original refugee status, the only consequense was that she couldn't retain her seat in parliament. She left for America on her own accord to get a job at the American Enterprise Institute.

Anyway, how come the French taxpayers aren't paying for her bodyguards she wants in America? I recall that some French minister promised as much, wich is more than the Dutch government ever did.

EDIT: dang, only just noticed Adrian's post

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Oh come on , at least Van Gough described himself as the village idiot who might just provoke some thought with his rants , this Wilders plonker really takes himself seriously .
Consider if you will Enoch Powell and then the pillocks that thought they were sending the same message as Enoch .

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Fair enough, I propose that this fellow cut of his ear and maybe his nether regions. Then place himself on a pedestal in the Tate modern. If anything, at least there will be something of interest in that awful place.

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

And if Wilders is ever murdered, driven out, or otherwise censored, again it won't be by Muslims.

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I don't hate him that much.

Louis VI the Fat has more brains then the entire european left combined :beam:

What seems to complete elude AdrianII is that people don't vote for Wilders because of what he is but because of what he's not. I am perfectly fine with admitting that mine is a protest-vote, I am not a complete idiot despite my psychotic episodes and I certainly don't fall for all that crap, nor does mr Wilders believe what he says, don't underestimate him he is a clever politician he plays the status-quo like a violin. He isn't here to stay though and he annoys the crap out of me as well. How a self-proclaimed right-wing politician can even consider banning books, insane. But it gets the liquids flowing, Frag happy.

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

The real teagedy is that smart, authentic voices, both Dutch and immigrant, are smothered by this Wilders circus.

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Oh? Who? Where? How? Most of all who?

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

Ayaan Hirsi Ali, finally, wasn't murdered symbolically, but unmasked as a cheater.

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Que? Unmasked? You know what she should have done, talk and don't mean it and grow fat on my money like the rest of them as was expected from her, you know just as well as me that it was all about Verdonk and never about miss Magan. A brave woman among dhimmi's and carreerists.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Oh? Who? Where? How? Most of all who?

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Ahmed Aboutaleb for instance. Ahmed who? Yeah right. This guy had excellent ideas long before Fortuyn or Wilders ran away with the issues. Now Aboutaleb is under attack for having two passports (Moroccan and Dutch) whilst being Undersecretary of Social Affairs and Employment. He should get all the support he needs. Instead we are spending all our time discussing the non-issues introduced by your great peroxide leader. It's sickening.

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

Ahmed Aboutaleb for instance. Ahmed who? Yeah right. This guy had excellent ideas long before Fortuyn or Wilders ran away with the issues. Now Aboutaleb is under attack for having two passports (Moroccan and Dutch) whilst being Undersecretary of Social Affairs and Employment. He should get all the support he needs. Instead we are spending all our time discussing the non-issues introduced by your great peroxide leader. It's sickening.

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If you have two nationalities you can't be in the dutch parlement what's so hard about it? You say why not but he can easily give up his marrocan identity if he cares that much, but riding the waves is just that much easier. Maybe it means nothing to you but it means something to him, he would rather change the rules here then give up that little piece of him that you find so very very neglectable. So why do you? Ahmed is a great guy I agree (even know him personally) but being a non-caucasian just isn't enough.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

If you have two nationalities you can't be in the dutch parlement what's so hard about it?

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QED

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

QED

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Oh but we are so very strict about it, it applies for business, Remkes even had to give up his membership of the jenever-society so that there can be no doubt, but Aboutaleb can keep his foreign nationality? Maybe it's just me but isn't that a little inconsistant?

The funniest thing is that when I said there are smart, authentic immigrant voices, you asked "Oh? Who? Where? How? Most of all who?"

Now it turns out you personally know Ahmed and you think he's a 'great guy'.

So why did you have to ask me? :shrug:

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

The funniest thing is that when I said there are smart, authentic immigrant voices, you asked "Oh? Who? Where? How? Most of all who?"

Now it turns out you personally know Ahmed and you think he's a 'great guy'.

So why did you have to ask me? :shrug:

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Well you only have to look at Marmouch and the backing he recieves from your lot, I am not asking anything, can't get it anyway but you need a miracle I need patience. I think the moderate muslims here are trying, and I don't think you are helping.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

I think the moderate muslims here are trying, and I don't think you are helping.

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We put the best of them in government positions, and you call it 'unhelpful'? Man, you are confused.

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

We put the best of them in government positions, and you call it 'unhelpful'? Man, you are confused.

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You put ' the best of them' and I am the one that is confused, you put them there, why? Almost like the counting horse trick, why not just take a black buttler if you can afford it. Just leave them, and me, just be, and we will all be just fine.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Just leave them, and me, just be, and we will all be just fine.

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Oh, suddenly we're all into wu pu wei instead of beating up migrants.

Have you spent your holiday in a Taoist monastery or something?

i agree with Frag, a nation should not accept divided loyalties from its politicians, particularly not those occupying cabinet posts.

I think the moderate muslims here are trying, and I don't think you are helping.

But geert is ? or by being part of a hate culture is he pushing them the other way ?

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

Oh, suddenly we're all into wu pu wei instead of beating up migrants.

Have you spent your holiday in a Taoist monastery or something?

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Ah there we go he pulls a tribe, I said that 4 years ago at the Paris riots and I was wrong, I was upset what can I say. But what I am really saying; that's it? Is that all there is?

is that all there issssss if that's all there is my friends, then let's keep dancingggg, let's bring out the booooooooooooooooooooze

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Ah there we go he pulls a tribe, I said that 4 years ago at the Paris riots and I was wrong, I was upset what can I say. But what I am really saying; that's it? Is that all there is?

is that all there issssss if that's all there is my friends, then let's keep dancingggg, let's bring out the booooooooooooooooooooze

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And haaaaaave a baaaaall..

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

And haaaaaave a baaaaall..

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Good taste mia muca, keep humming while my sercretary files you under pwned

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Originally Posted by LittleGrizzly

I think the moderate muslims here are trying, and I don't think you are helping.

But geert is ? or by being part of a hate culture is he pushing them the other way ?

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Well that is what I don't like about him, Banquo's Ghost got him nailed in his original post. He is not a man of any substance and certainly not of any solution but he is what he is and it is what it is and we will just have to make the most out of it.