Stardock's new game -- Elemental: War of Magic

Well either Brad deliberately misled us about the date so as to surprise us, or someone let the cat out of the bag a day early, because Gamespy has released an (apparently) exclusive first look at Stardock's new PC title. :jumping:


A fairly interesting feature is your leader/avatar, known as a "channeler". He's an immensely powerful character, but you can -- if you so choose -- to portion away some of this power to hero generals (whom you can hire as wandering NPC's), and also to grow your empire in the founding of new cities and whatnot. It sounds like it should be an interesting balance between having an individually strong leader, or sharing out his abilities so as to expand your realm.


There's five schools of magic: Life, Earth, Air, Water, & Fire. Of course, each school imparts its own bonuses and penalties. Your leader will also have a choice about being a positive or negative channeler -- apparently positive channelers will create verdant, lush land around their cities, while the empires of negative channelers will see something along the lines of Mordor-like terrain. Also (to directly quote the article): "Each type will receive various military bonuses or penalties based on the kind of terrain they're fighting on and which school of magic it's most connected to."


I have to admit, this part sounds particularly cool:

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The world map also plays a significant role in the way the game plays out. One of the design team's mantras is that everything the player sees should be "real." That is, everything in the game should represent a real strategic factor the player must take into consideration. Cities aren't just single-tile icons. Instead players can grow their cities according to specific strategic dictates. As cities expand, players can choose how to spread their cities across the map and can locate individual city elements within those tiles. This can lead to cities being used as fortresses to block specific mountain paths or a situation like the classical Greek cities of Athens and Piraeus in which the Greek city-state's naval power was extremely dependent on maintaining a thin, vulnerable strip of land that let them control the port city of Piraeus.

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I suspect I'm going to have a lot of fun with this aspect of the game. :2thumbsup:


There's some excellent news for modders as well:

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Elemental will also mark Stardock's entry into the realm of Spore-style game broadcasting. The game will do much more than offer support for modders, as the company is developing a back-end infrastructure through its proprietary Impulse service that will let players seamlessly integrate new races, units, spells, technologies, buildings and much more into their game. Every time a player starts a game of Elemental, they'll have the opportunity to seamlessly incorporate new content straight from the fertile minds of the game's biggest fans.

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Can't wait to see what people come up with. :beam:


Finally, the bad news:

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Elemental: War of Magic is currently scheduled for a February 2010 release.

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Gah! Over a year. I may very well go mad before then. :wall:

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Originally Posted by Martok

Gah! Over a year. I may very well go mad before then. :wall:

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Well, they usually allow pre-orders to beta well before release. So that may be your best hope for sanity.

Demigod isn't being released til Feb and I've been playing the beta for over a month now. :2thumbsup:

Cool beans :yes:. Thanks for the heads-up, Martok.

Seems interesting. I wonder if I'll be able to play it on my current rig when it comes out.

Either way, I'm fine with the late release date. Better to play it safe than haphazardly release it as fast as possible regardless of its state.

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

Well, they usually allow pre-orders to beta well before release. So that may be your best hope for sanity.

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I know. Problem is, I'm no more patient when it comes to beta-testing than I am with waiting. ~;p That, and I just like the idea of purchasing a game without knowing beforehand what the experience is really like -- I enjoy that "fresh and new" feeling.

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Originally Posted by makaikhaan

Seems interesting. I wonder if I'll be able to play it on my current rig when it comes out.

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I'd say it's very likely you'll have no problem on that score. One of Stardock's selling points is that they optimize their games so that it can run reasonably well on a wide variety of machines. (It's one of the reasons both GalCiv2 and Sins of a Solar Empire have sold so relatively well, despite both titles having very modest budgets.)

If you check out the two screenshots on the Gamespy preview, I think any concerns you have will be quickly mollified. ~:)

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Originally Posted by makaikhaan

Either way, I'm fine with the late release date. Better to play it safe than haphazardly release it as fast as possible regardless of its state.

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Oh, I know. The fact that they take their time and don't rush their games out the door is another reason I'm such a Stardock fanboy. :thumbsup:

That doesn't change the fact, however, that a year can still be a long time to wait. :sweatdrop:

By the by, here's the link to the game's home page. There's some more articles and previews linked under their News section as well.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go read up on the game more while I try to stop myself from salivating. ~;p

2010... Ohh man how am i going to wait...

Links to a couple more previews:


Edge-Online

Gamasutra



Some excerpts I found particularly interesting and/or cool:

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Elemental, which has been described by Wardell as a "franchise," will feature random map generation, integrated modding, city building, unit design, tactical combat, multiplayer and most of all, magic.

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As for multiplayer, Wardell said that there will be two modes: standard skirmish with simultaneous turns and a "Wars of Magic" mode. The latter is a persistent mode hosted on Stardock's Impulse Cloud servers, and offers a "variety of different game types."

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On the technical side, the game runs on an internally-developed 3D engine that’s been in the works for “a couple of years,” according to Wardell. It’s made specifically for strategy games. In Elemental, gamers will be able to zoom out and view the world as a cloth map that strategists can play on or zoom in for greater detail.

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“If you like Civilization or are a Master of Magic fan, this is a must-get," he claimed. "I’m zealot of those games, so I’m kind of a target audience for it."

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As with all of Stardock's games, it is targeting low system requirements, but also features an engine that dynamically scales performance to the number of CPU cores on a given machine.

As more cores are available, says Wardell, "the world just becomes richer. In the most extreme sense, this engine's been designed as such that at the lowest end with a really old machine, you can play almost with icons. But at the high end, you can zoom in and see squirrels running around in the trees. It all depends on your hardware."

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Gah! I know I'm fawning over this bloody game like some idiotic love-struck teenager, but I can't seem to help myself. There's just so much good stuff to get excited over. :smash:

So...

Its going to be like a cross between Civilization and Might and Magic? Interesting, very interesting...

Yeah, looks like it. :yes: Should be a fun combination!



IGN now has a preview up as well (along with more screenshots). A couple excerpts:

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You can capture and control cities on the map, and the game lets you zoom from the world map down close enough that you can see tiny people walking around your streets. Cities are built on tiles, and what's neat is that when the city grows and expands you can select which tile you want it to expand to. That way, you can create cities that mold the terrain, like rivers, instead of having sprawled out blobs of cities that are common in strategy games.

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And while things such as the map look like they were hand drawn, the cool thing is that the maps are randomly generated or user-created. Not only that, but most of the content in the game like units and buildings can be modified or replaced by users. The random map generator ensures that no two games are exactly the same, but users can type in their own names for major geographical features, such as forests, to make the map look like something straight out of Tolkien.

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There's so much coolness in these two passages that my head just might explode. :sweatdrop:

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Originally Posted by Martok

Gah! I know I'm fawning over this bloody game like some idiotic love-struck teenager, but I can't seem to help myself. There's just so much good stuff to get excited over. :smash:

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Well, you're not alone at least. It helps that this is the company with GalCiv2 under its belt, so we have some idea of what to expect in terms of turn-based strategy goodness.

Also, they know how to do a good public/pre-order beta, with the TA expansion for GalCiv as the model. I.e.... don't release the beta until it's fairly solid and fun to play, and keep the beta period interesting by dribbling out the new features (like race tech trees) over time. If they follow that model with Elemental, I'm jumping right on the pre-order beta. I was a little nervous about doing that with the GalCiv2 TA expansion, but it worked out fine. These are complicated games, and the beta period is a good time to learn the new rules and strategies.

So where's that beta, Stardock! :smash:

Me likey! :yes:

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Originally Posted by Zenicetus

So where's that beta, Stardock! :smash:

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Sounds like you'll have to wait til spring, possibly June.


Incidentally, I wonder how big the campaign maps are. They look pretty sizable, but it of course it's hard to tell when there's no scale to compare it to.

Very, very interesting. This sounds like the kind of game I'd like to make if I was in the business of designing games, heh. I'll be keeping an eye on this one for sure. ~:)

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Originally Posted by Martok

Incidentally, I wonder how big the campaign maps are. They look pretty sizable, but it of course it's hard to tell when there's no scale to compare it to.

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It would be neat if they followed the GalCiv2 model for the non-campaign, randomly-generated sandbox version of the game. The player can select different sizes of gameworld, from tiny to immense. That's not easy to balance well, but it does give a range of options. You can have intense games that finish quickly on small maps (because all the factions are crammed together), all the way to huge campaigns that take weeks to finish, because there is plenty of time to explore and develop before you have any major conflicts, and it takes a long time to dominate those huge maps.

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Originally Posted by Zenicetus

It would be neat if they followed the GalCiv2 model ... [where] you can have intense games that finish quickly on small maps (because all the factions are crammed together), all the way to huge campaigns that take weeks to finish, because there is plenty of time to explore and develop before you have any major conflicts, and it takes a long time to dominate those huge maps.

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Stardock is even toying with the idea of taking advantage of 64-bit machines, which allow in excess of 2 gigabytes of RAM, to support "huge, epic maps -- I mean, truly epic," Wardell noted.

"People play campaigns in Dungeons & Dragons in the real world that last for years. We could do that with 64-bit. We couldn't do it with 32-bit because you can't make the landmass that big -- that's been a big memory limitation," he claimed. "If someone wants to play a game that lasts for three years, who are we to stop them?"

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Gamasutra

I read that too, although I confess I don't understand the significance (of 32-bit and 64-bit machines). How is the latter so much better than the former?

And incidentally, how do I know whether my PC is a 32-bit or 64-bit? I'd sure like to know whether my computer could support "epic" maps. :smash:

Gamespot has a preview up:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Elemental: War of Magic is one part Master of Magic, one part Civilization, and one part Total War, with a dash of The Lord of the Rings fiction sprinkled in for good measure. And from our brief first look at the game, Elemental is also one of the more promising fantasy strategy entries to surface in a long while.

The powers of darkness continually encroach upon the land of men in Elemental.

That said, Elemental has no relation to Master of Magic, though rumors swirled in 2007 that publisher Stardock was attempting to secure the license. That didn't pan out, but the rumors of a new Stardock fantasy strategy game are a reality. Elemental takes place in the world of, um, Elemental. A great war ravaged the land, destroying almost all life. Powerful crystals that harnessed the power of the elements were shattered and scattered across the land. As life has slowly returned, beings known as "channelers" have arisen, able to access the magic of these crystal shards.

As the population of Elemental slowly gains in numbers, the world is being divided into two sides: men and the fallen. Men embrace farming, technology, and are generally good. The fallen embrace dark magic, combat, and adhere to a hierarchy of power. Naturally, men and the fallen don't care for each other.

In Elemental, you take on the role of one of the magical channelers and gather men or the fallen to your cause. You begin with one city and are charged with growing your kingdom. Much like in Civilization, you gather resources and grow your population. Unlike in Civ, you can grow your cities how you like, attaching a new land tile adjacent to any existing city tile. Should you want to grow a city in a long, straight line along a coastline for additional resources, you can. If your city is in a war-torn region, you may be better off surrounding your city hall with new tiles. Cities are only captured when city hall is taken, and these additional tiles add a defense bonus against invading armies.

Your kingdom can also be stylized however you like. In a separate Creator mode, you can edit city buildings to resemble medieval castles, like something out of a fairy tale, or crystalline structures that resemble Superman's Fortress of Solitude. As you gather resources, your population will grow and increase your military might, which can be used to further expand your kingdom.

There are several ways to achieve victory, such as simply defeating all your enemies in the world. You could also achieve a diplomatic victory by gathering all to your cause (sometimes under threat of force). If you are able to collect all the shards of magic hidden throughout the world, you will earn a magical victory. Finally, you can recruit enough heroes to your banner to complete a campaign called the Quest of Mastery.

Heroes, in fact, are everywhere in Elemental and range from classical knights to ultrapowerful dragons. By using skills of diplomacy, you can convince these heroes to fight for your cause, giving you great bonuses in battle. And because you are a channeler, you can imbue these heroes with magical abilities. There's one catch: You are not only a sovereign overlord with a handy top-down view of the world; you're also a character in the game, capable of moving to other areas and joining in every battle. If you die, it's game over. As a channeler, you have a large amount of magic to disperse among your cities and population. You even have to use a bit on the countryside if you want to build a new city there. Your heroes will be able to recover powerful magical artifacts from dangerous spots in the world, but you still have a finite amount of magic.

Armies are moved about on an overworld map before zooming in for massive battles.

Much of Elemental is played on a large overworld map. Zoomed all the way out, it resembles the hand-drawn maps of Middle Earth in The Lord of the Rings. If you zoom in closer, you'll notice a battle line where the darkness of the fallen's territory encroaches on the sunny and green territory of man. Sooner or later, these opposing forces will collide.

Battles play out similar to those in the Total War series. You'll move armies across the overworld map and then zoom into a 3D battle map. Battles do not play out in real time per se but are continually turn-based. You could pause the game to queue up various attacks or let the battles play out, issuing orders on the fly and playing the battles out as if they were in real time. Stardock is hoping the battles are as large as those in Total War as well. Company president Brad Wardell envisions thousands of units onscreen at once, ranging from infantry to archers, with dragons soaring overhead. If your channeler has sufficient magic and weapons, he will be able to cut through the opposing armies like a knife through butter, knocking dozens of foot soldiers to their doom with a single blow. The inspiration for these battles is none other than the prologue in The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring when Sauron dons the One Ring then attacks the armies of elves and men. If that's too hectic for you and you prefer to manage your kingdom from afar, you could also choose to auto-resolve your conflicts.

We didn't have much time with Elemental, but we did learn that Stardock is planning at least two multiplayer modes, including a skirmish battle mode in addition to a full competitive campaign mode in which empire building is also a focus. There are a set number of maps in addition to a random map generator, ensuring you never fight the same war of good versus evil twice, if you so choose. Also, Stardock is encouraging user-created content in the vein of Spore, allowing you to use a creator tool to build structures, races, maps, technology, and magical items to insert into the game.

Much could change between now and the estimated release date, but the lofty goals of Elemental should be enough to intrigue any fan of fantasy strategy. Elemental is currently slated for release in February 2010.

Also, Brad has released additional details about Elemental here (on the game's official forums). I loved his tongue-in-cheek response to the question about what kind of copy protection the game would include:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

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Most important question: what version of SecuROM will be used?

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It's using a combination of SecuROM and Starforce so that the game will require a CD in the drive, a USB key to be inserted and the reading of a particular word on a particular page of the user manual (which won't be hard since it'll only have a 2 page manual naturally).

The docs, which we expect to be written by fans, will be online only which will be fine since the game will require players to be on-line at all times due to the by-the-hour activation checks the game makes to the single player mode.

Also, the game won't work if you have any CD-ROM burning software including the built in media player software (users will naturally need to uninstall any media players including iTunes in order to play).

All of this will be integrated into the game by our eastern-european CD manufacturer (the copy we send there will be completely clean of course) so we're confident that no pirates will get it...
















(incidentally, this Q and A was a joke) ~;)

:laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Martok

I read that too, although I confess I don't understand the significance (of 32-bit and 64-bit machines). How is the latter so much better than the former?

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It's probably related to the amount of RAM that can be accessed. A 32-bit system has a ceiling of 4 gigs (IIRC), and the theoretical ceiling on 64-bit is something ridiculous like 16 million terabytes. Practically speaking, it just means you can get past the 4 gig ceiling, if people are willing to install more physical RAM. If you have 8 gigs of RAM in a 64-bit system, a game can use all of it (less the OS overhead, natch).

So here's why you'd want that in a strategy game. With something like a FPS game, local terrain can be loaded off the hard drive in chunks (often transparently, in the background) as the player moves around the game world. The world can be immense (WoW, for example), but the game never has to show more than what the player can see in the immediate surroundings.

A strategy game though, has to calculate all the actions and movements of every faction spread across the entire game map, on every turn... not just what the player can see for his or her own faction. It would slow down the time each turn takes, if the map had to be split up and loaded in pieces off the hard drive. So, a humongous strategy gameworld with multiple AI opponents requires humongous RAM.

I'm making assumptions here, but I think that's the relation to 32-bit vs. 64-bit systems. And it's the OS that has to support 64 bit too, not just the machine. I'm not up on current PC hardware and OS limits, so maybe someone else can jump in on that question.

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Originally Posted by Martok

Also, Brad has released additional details about Elemental here (on the game's official forums). I loved his tongue-in-cheek response to the question about what kind of copy protection the game would include:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

It's using a combination of SecuROM and Starforce so that the game will require a CD in the drive, a USB key to be inserted and the reading of a particular word on a particular page of the user manual (which won't be hard since it'll only have a 2 page manual naturally).

The docs, which we expect to be written by fans, will be online only which will be fine since the game will require players to be on-line at all times due to the by-the-hour activation checks the game makes to the single player mode.

Also, the game won't work if you have any CD-ROM burning software including the built in media player software (users will naturally need to uninstall any media players including iTunes in order to play).

All of this will be integrated into the game by our eastern-european CD manufacturer (the copy we send there will be completely clean of course) so we're confident that no pirates will get it...

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For a moment there I thought he was serious..... :laugh4:

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"Elemental: War of Magic is one part Master of Magic, one part Civilization, and one part Total War, with a dash of The Lord of the Rings fiction sprinkled in for good measure"

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Pinch me...

@Zenicetus: Ah, okay. I more or less see what you're getting at. Thanks for the explanation. :bow:

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Originally Posted by Quirinus

For a moment there I thought he was serious..... :laugh4:

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Sorry. I forgot to add in the line (which Brad deliberately posted after a long blank space) where he specifically says he's joking. ~;p

Yeah, he's said Elemental will come with no copy protection, just like GalCiv2 and Sins of a Solar Empire did. You only need to enter your serial number, and that's only in order to receive patches and updates. ~:)

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Originally Posted by seireikhaan

Pinch me...

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It does almost sound too good to be true, doesn't it? Still, I have faith in Stardock -- they can pull it off, if anyone can. :sweatdrop:

Incidentally, for anyone concerned about the game's visuals: Brad has also said that the screenshots are from a very early build, and that they'll look "100 times" better than they do right now. While even I take that statement with mountainous piles of salt, it's still makes me look forward to what the end product will look like. :egypt:

Man I really love stardock... They know how to treat their gamers... I make from this day a solemn vow never to illegally obtain any of stardocks software and games. EA on the other hand isnt even worth the bandwith or time.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Quote:
Most important question: what version of SecuROM will be used?
It's using a combination of SecuROM and Starforce so that the game will require a CD in the drive, a USB key to be inserted and the reading of a particular word on a particular page of the user manual (which won't be hard since it'll only have a 2 page manual naturally).

The docs, which we expect to be written by fans, will be online only which will be fine since the game will require players to be on-line at all times due to the by-the-hour activation checks the game makes to the single player mode.

Also, the game won't work if you have any CD-ROM burning software including the built in media player software (users will naturally need to uninstall any media players including iTunes in order to play).

All of this will be integrated into the game by our eastern-european CD manufacturer (the copy we send there will be completely clean of course) so we're confident that no pirates will get it...

I think he forgot about the random generated key code that they need to ask for and pay for every few days, and the limit of half of an install per computer with the full install coming only after you have 4 signed copies of proof of purchase

Some more info (all from EWOM's forums):



There will be multiplayer co-op campaigns:

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Co-Op campaigns are one of the things we'll have.

One thing to remember is that this design is being made for the long-haul. So we envision settings where a group of friends could play together against the Fallen on maps so large and so many techs and spells that it would take months of weekend get togethers to finish if they want (or they coudl play a smaller map and be done in an afternoon).

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While there's only two playable races (Humans and Fallen), there will be 12 playable civilizations:

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While Elemental comes with two races -- Men and Fallen, each of these races are split into 6 factions each (12 total). Each of these factions has its own technology tree and own spell book to make each faction play very very differently.

The thing to remember here, these are groups that have been split off from each other for a long time now and they have evolved in very different directions.

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Brad also talks about at some length his vision for how economics and troop production will work in Elemental:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

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Re-thinking 4X economics


One of the things in Elemental we've been thinking hard on is how the economic system in the game should work. Elemental is, first and foremost, about building a civilization that happens to exist in a world filled with magic.

So when it comes to building things, we are trying to get away from the classic "N production units". There are, for instance, no factories in Elemental. We want players to really understand just how big of a deal it is for a civilization to be able to produce mounted warriors who have metal armor and metal weapons. It's not just knowing how to build such a unit, it's being able to put together the infrastructure to produce such a unit.

Players don't research types of units, they research technologies. Players then design their own units and those designs require certain resources. A basic soldier with a club is pretty easy. You take a guy, arm him with a big stick. A better soldier might involve same guy, armed with same stick but trained. Now he's much much better but it will obviously take longer to get that unit. It's not about production then, it's about time.

A still better soldier might be equipped a bronze sword instead of the stick. But that bronze sword didn't just come out of nowhere. The metal had to be mined and then forged and then delivered. Of course, the challenge from a game-design point of view is that you don't want players to be forced to micro-manage such things. It's supposed to be a strategy game, not an inventory management game. And so, you make that issue something for your civilization to deal with - not the player.

A given land tile may have a metal resource on it. The player builds a mine on it. That mine then produces N units of metal per turn. That metal then flows to the keep's inventory (in the city). When the keep's inventory gets filled, it then starts getting sent out to other cities (little caravans start appearing on the map delivering this stuff). All of this is automated but evidence of a growing civilization. Players can build warehouses to store more inventory of a resource. A player can also build an armory which produces weapons which flow again into the keep's inventory and then into warehouses if built and then out to the country side to other cities. Players can build roads to increase the speed in which these resources make it (and incidentally, these caravans only go out sporadically so the map isn't going to be full of these units running around and they're not true units, they'll be almost like decoration except when attacked).

So when I go to build a unit, the amount of time it takes to build that unit is going to be based on decisions I made -- what am I equipping him with. How much training am I giving him? And of course, since populations of "cities" range from 100 to 1 million or so, one of the resources units require are people. A village of 100 people obviously can't conjure up a legion no matter how much money and resources you have.

How will all this actually be implemented? That's where the open beta will come into play. Our development tools allow us to quickly implement many different concepts and UI's. that's where a lot of our work has gone into so that we can make changes like this. Players saw hints of this in Galactic Civilizations where we could make dramatic changes to the game based on player feedback but it's nothing compared to what we've built for Elemental.

So for instance, do players want to prioritize where these caravans go? How much control do players want of this kind of thing? Would it be more fun to actually have technology branches dedicated to having governors (not AI, just bonuses to supply) that "manage" this. These are some of the many things that players will be involved in.

The main thing I wanted to get across is that we are not going to have the traditional "N units of production". Players will be able to design their units, design how much training (a small squad of elite soldiers or a huge mob of untrained brutes or somewhere in between?), decide how well equipped you want them to be and so on. It's not about sending out a knight. There is no "knight" unit unless you choose to call a unit you designed that has a horse, a soldier who has been trained, plate mail, sword, helmet, etc. a knight when you save it. How long would this knight take to create? Possibly very little time at all if you have the plate mail, sword, helmet, and horse ready to go. Then it's just a matter of the training time. Otherwise, it could take quite a long time (the game will estimate the time based on arriving supplies).

Hopefully this gives you a glimpse at the strategic depth we want to provide players. The choices for players in how they want to play this game are endless.

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Later on in the same thread:

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Originally Posted by Frogboy (Brad Wardell)

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Originally Posted by Tiavals

Ah, this seems to bring two things I yearn for to the game. It brings a certain sense of uniqueness to a city if it is the main contributor of a certain resource, and as such probably the place that uses those resources the most. "The heaviest armor in our Kingdom comes from Armouria." That kind of stuff.

And the second, which is quite important, is that you can't always just build the best unit in masses. Like in Civilization, once you've researched Knights, you'll just build 30 units of them and crush your enemies. I'm hoping that this system limits the amount of super-elite units you can get, forcing you to use a lot of "trash folk". Sauron's armies were mostly made of orcs, after all, not mountain trolls.

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You hit the nail on the head. What this system will do, in practice, is bring a more realistic and more fun way of playing the game - just because you have the technology to build something doesn't mean you can realy build it. Just because you can now, theoretically, train elite guardsman, who ride griffins, are armed with magic swords, etc. doesn't mean you're going to start cranking these things out. Do you have access to griffins? Has your sovereign imbued one of his armories with the ability to create magic weaponry locally or do the arms have to be shipped from across the world?

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I find this particularly cool, as it means your cities will actually be somewhat unique and/or important in different ways. No more generic 20 towns/cities all more or less alike.... :2thumbsup:

I'm probably not gonna get it, stardocks whole: "Were so scared of pirates were gonna force you to use this program while proclaiming were awesome for not having drm" Pisses me off.

Now excuse me while I spend time screwing with impulse to get the 2.0 patch for Galciv2 downloaded.
Can't fecking give a direct download... nope they gotta force people to deal with this crappy program called impulse... morons.

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Originally Posted by Rilder

Can't fecking give a direct download... nope they gotta force people to deal with this crappy program called impulse... morons.

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Or, they could just not release a freebie add-on... or, they could sell it in a box and make us pay for it.... :shrug:

I didn't like Impulse when it was beta, so I stuck with SDC (which still works for the most part), but once Impulse actually released, I tried it again and have been happy with it since. I'd get on their IRC channel and ask about your problems there. My Sins install wasn't being detected one time, and within about 10minutes of being on their IRC, I had a fix for it. :2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Martok

Brad also talks about at some length his vision for how economics and troop production will work in Elemental:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Later on in the same thread:

I find this particularly cool, as it means your cities will actually be somewhat unique and/or important in different ways. No more generic 20 towns/cities all more or less alike.... :2thumbsup:

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That sounds awesome. :yes:
My biggest concern will be the actual pacing of the game, but I probably won't know about that until I actually lay hands on it....

oops

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xiahou

Or, they could just not release a freebie add-on... or, they could sell it in a box and make us pay for it.... :shrug:

I didn't like Impulse when it was beta, so I stuck with SDC (which still works for the most part), but once Impulse actually released, I tried it again and have been happy with it since. I'd get on their IRC channel and ask about your problems there. My Sins install wasn't being detected one time, and within about 10minutes of being on their IRC, I had a fix for it. :2thumbsup:

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I just hate that overbloated piece of trash, and yes they could of charged people for a patch. The patch didn't even add much, they couldn't of sold it if they wanted to.

There's a new Q&A up at Gamespot.

Quote:

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Gamespot: Victory in Elemental can be achieved in more ways than simply wiping out your enemies. Tell us about the different victory conditions in the game.

Brad Wardell: The victory conditions are one of the things we've focused the most on. As a gamer, one of my pet peeves in strategy games is that nearly every path to victory involves, directly or indirectly, having the best economy/military. So when designing Elemental, we wanted to make sure there are other paths to victory that involve other distinctive resources than just that.

So first, you have the traditional military conquest mode. You also have the diplomatic victory that works much like what's in Galactic Civilizations, where if you ally with the other factions of your order (men or fallen), you win. You also have the spell of making, a powerful spell that you have to (a) research at great expense and (b) capture and hold enough shards of magic to get the mana to cast it. And lastly, you can win by completing the quest of dominion, which we'll talk a lot more about in the future.

But these four victory conditions are deceptively simple, because there's a lot more to them than what you'd normally expect. Without going into too much detail, let me give you an example:

Because so much of the game's key choices are made by the player character deciding how much of their essence to impart into their minions, you can't easily tell how powerful another player is. It's not like in GalCiv or Sins of a Solar Empire, where you see a big, honking fleet and know a particular player is going to wipe everyone out. That's because the power of armies is not obvious. One player may focus on making their player character ridiculously powerful, with relatively few champions leading armies. Another player may have tons and tons of armies. Who would win? It's not obvious.

But that's one of the parts we expect to be the most enjoyable about the game. It's not about players knowing they've got the game wrapped up in the first half hour and spending the next four hours mopping up. There are many different and subtle paths to achieving victory. The guy who cranks out eight cities in the first 20 moves will have a very weak player character for a long time (since those cities will involve taking a lot of their essence to revive the land they're on). There's just a ton of different choices for the player that are fun and interesting.

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Excellent find, ElectricEel. :2thumbsup: Did you watch the teaser trailer as well?

Okay, this is way too cool to *not* share. Brad talks about the game's persistent universe multiplayer mode:

Quote:

---

Elemental, like Galactic Civilizations, will have a very in-depth single player world. In fact, in terms of the single player game, it will have a lot more "stuff" to it than GalCiv had (such as a virtual persistent single player opponent which we'll talk more as time goes on).
But it will be in multiplayer that we really hope to bring new fans to the genre.
I love multiplayer games. But I am not an advocate of them in terms of taking resources up from the single player game for most types of PC games. That's because, as a practical matter, relatively few people play on-line. Not because they can't but because it's just usually not worth the hassle.
Playing on-line can take a long time, it can be frustrating and it can often end up as a total waste because of dropouts, crashes, whatever.
To address this, Elemental is going to add some new multiplayer options that we think will really help expand the interest in multiplayer.
One of those options is the persistent world: Empire vs. Kingdom. In it, players choose a side - The Empire or The Kingdom. Having chosen that, players then play on-line with various other players who are trying to help their side - The Empire or The Kingdom conquer the world of Elemental. Each battle takes place on a tiny part of the overall world of Elemental. Their opponents and friends are a mixture of real users and AI users based on what is necessary.
The AI work in Elemental is a little bit beyond what we've done before. We are aiming to provide virtual AI players who are competing in the game like a real player would. These virtual AI players would be able to join games (if no one else is available, real people get first dibs on joining games) and would play much like real people do (GalCiv players have an idea of what we mean).
Part of my work, as the AI developer at Stardock, would be to create lots of these virtual players, each with their own personalities and strategies, so that they're prepared to join up in games and provide varying degrees of a challenge to human players.
The idea here is to let people be able to get into games on-line and play without a lot of hassle remembering that this is an additional option to the other multiplayer modes available.
We'll be talking more in the future about how the Kingdom vs. Empire persistent multiplayer experience works later.

---

Damn. I have to say, even I'm now curious to play MP in Elemental. And most of you know that that's usually not my cup of tea -- I'm generally a singleplayer-only type of gamer.

But this....this, I just might have to check out. ~:cool:

Another interesting bit. It looks like Brad's going to do beta-testing, AI code-work, and MP modes somewhat differently than what seems to be the norm (and all at the same time):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

One of the first things we're going to be beta testing for Elemental is a new way of doing computer AI. As some of you know, the main reason I got into development in the first place was to write computer AI for games.

Elemental is an opportunity to try some new things. For example, the initial betas of Elemental are going to require the user to be on the Internet to play. The reason is that the computer AI won't be inside the game itself but instead be implemented as AI players on the Impulse game cloud that we're building.

So you would, in effect, start up Elemental like you would a multiplayer game except that the people joining your game wouldn't be people. They would be AI people. And the AI work won't just be in how they play the game but how they behave -- in the lobby and elsewhere with the goal to make them feel like real people (except not jerks).

These AI players will have their own Impulse accounts with their own standings in the rankings, their own achievements, etc. The code won't execute on your machine, it'll be all server-based.

The final version of the game, of course, will not require the user to be on the Internet. We will bundle a number of the AI players in with the game to play single player, off-line games.

But what I hope to do is to build a cloud of multiplayer AI players that I can constantly be updating and enhancing in near-real time based on the data I get back from them on how they were beat, what exploits were used against them, what chat messages were sent to it that it needs to respond to (I'll probably have it respond "no speako English" for the most part).

In the final version of the game, these AI bots will be out there ready to join on-line games. We will give players the ability to discriminate against the robots if they have some sort of anti-robot issue and don't want them joining their multiplayer games. But the match-making system otherwise won't know which players are controlled by humans and which are controlled by the robots.

The nice thing is that for people who are used to playing with strangers on-line, the robots will help fill out the on-line community with people to play against who are explicitly designed to play like people (well like decent people not the people who drop immediately).

I expect the first version of this to be included with Beta 1 of Elemental (i.e. this isn't some "future" thing) which we expect will be out this Spring.

Quote:

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The final version of the game, of course, will not require the user to be on the Internet. We will bundle a number of the AI players in with the game to play single player, off-line games.

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Phew. :sweatdrop:
That makes it sound much better. For a moment, I thought they were gonna require you to be online for single-player. I wonder if the offline AIs will be update-able to match what their online versions "learn"?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

Phew. :sweatdrop:
That makes it sound much better. For a moment, I thought they were gonna require you to be online for single-player.

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Heh. Yeah, I was wondering there for a minute as well. :beam:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

I wonder if the offline AIs will be update-able to match what their online versions "learn"?

---

Probably not, unless there's a special "online singleplayer" mode you can run the game in (which I highly doubt). Given the frequency with which Stardock usually releases patches/updates, though, I suspect the offline AI's will be able to keep up well enough.

With the game almost ready to go into beta-testing and all the new info that's being released in the last few days (much of it in preparation for the run-up to PAX), it seemed an appropriate time to resurrect this thread.

So with that being said, we've got some new articles and previews! Myself, I found the Kotaku article and IGN's discussion with Scott about the game's art to be particularly interesting:


IGN preview

IGN article -- Art of Elemental

Gamespot preview

Kotaku preview/interview


The newer screenshots (especially in the art conversation) look pretty friggin' sweet IMHO. They've come a long way just in the last 3-6 months.

As for the Kotaku preview, I'm extremely interested in how these royal families and their dynastic politics will fit into the game's diplomacy system. It sounds like it's somewhat similar to that in Paradox's Crusader Kings, although admittedly I don't know have first-hand knowledge of CK. Still, I admit to being quite intrigued. :thumbsup:

Im getting all gitty waiting for this game.

I've always been a big Master of Magic fan. I strongly suggest that anybody who can't wait see if they can find it somewhere or other. I'm not even going to venture a guess as to whether or not it truly qualifies as 'abandonware' now, since these days almost nothing is.

Anyway, it's a great game. It seems not so buggy to me, and I could run it without Dosbox on my old XP machine. I do remember that the AI could be quite viscous as well.

Other than that...
What, no death magic? One of the best parts about the original was getting a zombie army.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sheogorath

Other than that...
What, no death magic? One of the best parts about the original was getting a zombie army.

---

I don't know if you'll be able to raise zombie armies -- although one can hope ~;) -- but Elemental does have death magic. It's simply the flip side of life magic (which I'll admit I don't think Stardock has done the best job of making very clear). So have no fear; you should be able to indulge your inner necromancer to your heart's content. ~D

I'm a big Stardock fan (well, actually mainly a big GalCiv2 fan), and I've been looking forward to this. However, I'm having a hard time getting enthusiastic about the art style. I've read about the inspiration for the style, but it still isn't grabbing me. That hard-edge outline looks like an attempt at a comic book style, with a washed-out color palette. Oh well, I know this type of game isn't really about the eye candy, and at least it can't be accused of copying anything else out there. Just a minor quibble, and maybe it'll grow on me.

I'm not crazy about the square tile combat system either, but maybe that will grow on me too.

According to Brad's dev journal comments, the first open/pre-order beta is going to be very stripped-down to focus on game mechanics, so I think I'll wait to pre-order until there's a little more meat on the bones. I'll definitely jump in sometime before final release though.

From what I've seen, I love Elemental's art style. Here's some new screenies to take in.

I can't wait for the Beta to start....

I'll be honest: While functional, I wasn't overly-impressed with the game's visuals until the last few days. Now, however, I'm loving it. :2thumbsup:


As for the beta, I'm probably going to hold off, at least for now. Aside from my lacking the requisite patience to be a beta-tester, I'm also waiting for if/when the collector's edition is announced. ~;)

I actually stumbled upon this game not to long myself, and like you Martok, am waiting for this game to be released. I personally liked the art style from the get-go. Also, all the features seem to be really cool! The only things I am worried about is the diplomacy and the modding (which I hope is easy because this seems like a good game to mod imho :sweatdrop:)...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Decker

The only things I am worried about is the diplomacy and the modding (which I hope is easy because this seems like a good game to mod imho :sweatdrop:)...

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Well I think you'll be quite pleased with the modding aspect, as the team has already built some pretty amazing mod tools (although I don't know if they'll be included in the soon-to-be-released beta). By most accounts, GalCiv2 was fairly easy to mod -- although be advised that I can't claim first-hand knowledge of this -- and Stardock has repeatedly stated their intention to make Elemental even more so. And unlike certain game companies that shall not be named, generally speaking Stardock has actually come through on what they say they're going to do. ~:)

As for diplomacy, I have very few worries about it myself. GalCiv2 is one of a small handful of games I've played where diplomacy is actually meaningful -- although admittedly, I suspect probably not as much as in most Paradox titles -- and I cannot imagine Brad Wardell slacking off in that department with EWM. Indeed, between the recently announced dynasties feature and the just-announced vassals feature, the game's diplomatic system looks to be quite robust. :2thumbsup:

Oh I know about the modding (I've never modded before and this looks like a really good game at doing a first attempt haha :sweatdrop:)

And true, I hear a LOT about GalCiv2 (though I've never played any of the games). And wow! That is really cool! The more info on this game that gets out the more I cannot wait for it haha.

Found this a few days ago.
Gameplay Video

I wonder if any of Stardock's developers visit here...

Waiting for this one... Looks like I will have to be a very good boy this summer (down under Feb is at the end of summer)...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Papewaio

I wonder if any of Stardock's developers visit here...

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A couple of them have said they have in the past, although I don't know if they still do. I kinda got the impression they lost interest after Rome, but I may be mistaken in this regard.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Papewaio

Waiting for this one... Looks like I will have to be a very good boy this summer (down under Feb is at the end of summer)...

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Gah! Stardock really needs to update that already.... :wall:

I hate to be the one to break the news to you, Pape, but that release date of February 2010 is no longer valid. After having discussed the matter with the fans, Stardock decided to extend the beta to almost a full year, and subsequently the release date has been pushed back as well. There's no "hard" release date yet, but right now it looks to be somewhere around August/September of next year.

Personally, I think it's a good thing. However, I may also just go mad with the extra wait.... :sweatdrop:

As long as they don't do a Spore I will be ok.

Spore: A game made by TV Executives
Dumbed down for the audience and treats them like criminals because parents want to play it with their kids.

Huge opportunity missed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Martok

I hate to be the one to break the news to you, Pape, but that release date of February 2010 is no longer valid. After having discussed the matter with the fans, Stardock decided to extend the beta to almost a full year, and subsequently the release date has been pushed back as well. There's no "hard" release date yet, but right now it looks to be somewhere around August/September of next year.

Personally, I think it's a good thing. However, I may also just go mad with the extra wait.... :sweatdrop:

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If the beta for the last expansion for GalCiv2 is any indication, the Elemental beta will be playable much earlier than the final release date. I was having a blast with Twilight of the Arnor as a pre-order beta for something like 6 months before it went final.

This is a little different because they're building the engine from scratch, but they've been working on it for a while now. I'm just guessing, but I'll bet they have a pretty solid game in beta by mid-Winter, and the rest of the year will be just balance and FX tweaks.

It does take some patience to play a beta where the rules can change with each release, and you have to wait for missing features... but it's better than waiting a year.

Quote:

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As long as they don't do a Spore I will be ok.

Spore: A game made by TV Executives
Dumbed down for the audience and treats them like criminals because parents want to play it with their kids.

Huge opportunity missed.

---

It's Stardock, I highly doubt they'll blow this :sweatdrop:

Brad's released some early screenshots of the beta. :2thumbsup:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by someone in that thread

Looks like Sin(x) of a Solar Empire, to me.

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haha

I lol'ed. Brad's hilarious, not your typical CEO. :2thumbsup:

I DL'ed the first beta build and got a chance to sit down and play a game. I had a bunch of performance problems and video glitches at first, but somewhere between updating my video drivers, rebooting, and starting with a fresh save game, the issues seemed to go away for the most part.

The game is very barebones in it's current state, but what's there shows a lot of promise for what's to come. To start, I chose my faction, started my game used some essence to found a city. From there, I sent my sovereign across the spider infested lands (seriously infested) to hunt for items and grind for exp. After I got a level, I bumped into another sovereign who was still level 1... and I killed him. By the time I was level 4, I found another sovereign.... and I killed him. Eventually, I found some cities belonging to the remaining 2 factions. I conquered them and killed their sovereigns. Game over. :beam:

Along the way, I got to play with the unit designer- which looks like it will be really cool when finished. I also spent time researching tech that unlocked new buildings and weapons/armor to use when designing units.

The AI seems pretty rudimentary at this point. Obviously, it was able to found towns and raise a few troops, but none of the sovereigns I encountered were above level 1, whereas I was level 6 before the end of the game. Spiders were by far the most prolific monster- the only other creature I encountered was a troll. So far so good...


This was the game's title screen: :laugh4:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://img230.imageshack.us/img230/6480/beta1.jpg

How was the gameplay mechanics? Trade, building an economy, politics, creating and moving an army around??

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Decker

How was the gameplay mechanics? Trade, building an economy, politics, creating and moving an army around??

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In a word... "no".:clown:

Here's a roadmap for the beta.

Below is the status of where we are on the development of Elemental.

BETA 1

1. Initial Build: Basic Compatibility
2. Beta 1A: Initial Gameplay Skeleton
3. Beta 1B: Initial Economic system Implemented
4. Beta 1C: Initial AI system Implemented
5. Beta 1D: Initial Diplomacy system Implemented
6. Beta 1E: Initial Dynasty system implemented
7. Beta 1F: Initial Magic system implemented
8. Beta 1G: Initial Quest system implemented

BETA 2

1. Initial build provides basic multiplayer (player hosted – client/server)
2. Beta 2A: Persistent stat tracking
3. Beta 2B: Stardock hosted option.
4. Beta 2C: Stardock hosted persistent games
5. Beta 2D: Stardock hosted persistent universe game (persistent dynasties)

BETA 3

1. Initial Kumquat3D engine build of Elemental.
2. Beta 3A: Introduction to Dungeons
3. Beta 3B: Introduction to Magical Spells

BETA 4

1. Introduction to tactical battles
2. Beta 4A: New multiplayer mode: Arena
3. Beta 4B: Customized tactical battle options
4. Beta 4C: Super-Duper AI Update to tactical battles
5. Beta 4D: Polish Beta (extensive and ongoing)

BETA 5

1. Introduction to integrated modding
2. Beta 5A: Persistent universe mods
3. Beta 5B: Third-party Maya/3D Studio importing beta
4. Beta 5C: Modding group testing

They're at "Initial Build" right now. 1A is supposed to be out around Oct 1. I think the purpose of the initial build is just to make sure it runs ok on people's PCs and to stamp out any major glitches. Once that's done we'll hopefully see deeper gameplay start to unfold.

For now, basically all I can do is: Found cities, move about, design and train units, attack monsters/sovereigns/cities/ect, check map POIs for loot, and do some very basic research and city building. :shrug:

Here's a screenshot:
https://img269.imageshack.us/img269/...3248849.th.jpg
You can see my sovereign standing near the middle of the map and a scout in the upper right. In this game, I decided not to waste my own essence to found a city and just set out exploring- I found another faction's city and took theirs. :whip:

The other two cities also belonged to that faction. Around the time that I captured them, I also caught up with their sovereign and killed him off too. :skull:

As I currently understand it, the white rings around my towns represent my area of influence or where my magic has revitalized the land. Within those boundaries, I could found additional towns without having to expend my essence first. If you look close, you can see I've built some structures at the larger town, whereas the other two are still basic settlements.

This looks interesting, to say the least.

I recently completed a Stardock survey giving me a 20% discount on Impulse purchases till November 1st, as the game is available for pre-order, I might get involved (if that's not too miserly of me).

I've not been involved in such an early beta before, could be interesting...

The M&B Warband beta is currently monopolising my time though.

Incidentally, ShackNews has a new interview with Brad discussing the game. Some pretty good info to be found.

The Beta 1G update was released this afternoon. I've downloaded it, but probably won't have a chance to play it until this weekend. The changelog looks pretty impressive though:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------- Beta 1G Change Log -----------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------
--- MAJOR FEATURES ---
------------------------
**********
* Dynasties *
Overview:
The player can now get married (currently happens randomly) and have children (again, totally random). After 20 turns the children will 'come of age' and become champion units on the map. At this time, the "Arrange Marrage" option becomes available in diplomacy. Daughters will get married into the other faction (you lose her as a unit), but 2 of every 3 children will return to your faction when they grow up.
Details:
+ Added initial dynasty data stuff
- Players keep track of their family tree
- Sovereigns have a random chance to get married
- Married females have a random chance to give birth to a male or female child
- Children "grow up" after 20 turns
- Everything saves/loads
+ Added some basic dynasty debug info to the kingdom report wnd until the real dynasty screen is implemented
+ Fixed some missing ref releases
+ Message boxes release their message data on close so that they don't hold refs to data that they don't need and postpone destruction of the data
+ Fixed gender randomization for children
+ When a child in a dynasty grows up, they now clone whichever of their parents actually exists and are stationed in the first city built by the player
+ Started adding stuff for creating a new unit type and saving/loading it out, basically just an extension of what the AI is already doing when designing their units
+ When children grow up, they now create a separate unit type (though it's still just a clone of their parent's),
and can save/load its info
+ Started hooking up the dynasty wnd, added the dxpacks and some of the classes to the project
+ Added debug messages and asserts to code for making a child grow up, hopefully replacing the crash that Anthony got with an assert and some helpful info instead. If anyone hits the assert, please let me know so I can figure out what the deal is.
+ Added wedding rings picture to marriage message
+ Changed and moved some temp hardcoded strings to the string file
+ Added null pointer check to CUnitType copy cto
+ Fixed crash when a child grows up after their parents have died/don't exist
+ Implemented being able to arrange marriages through the diplomacy screen
+ Fixed some issues with marriage that popped up once this could be done
+ Added report items for births, marriages, and growing up in kingdoms you know about
+ Unhide now calls UpdateControls on the family tree subwnd, if it's shown
+ Added member variables m_pDummyListgrid and m_aStatsEntryWnds
+ Added private helpers FillInfoCardForSelected, CreateStatsEntries, FillStatsArea, and ClearStatsArea
+ Fixed a bug with the type of m_pUnitRelationsListbox
+ Implemented pretty much every part of this screen except for the family tree graphic, which has been temporarily replaced by a selectable list of all the family members
+ Also, all of the list grids are messed up, counting the number of visible entries incorrectly. I think I tracked down where the bug is here, but I wanted to check with other people before I went messing with the code. Once the list grid is counting the entries correctly, though, I checked that the data is all fine, so it should show up correctly after that.
+ Changed stuff to not be the children of cut scene windows, because that totally messes with the resizing of everything
+ Added some dummy controls to act as parents of the controls that were orphaned because of this cut scene window thing
+ Added a temporary list box to the area where the family tree will be displayed, so that functionality could be coded in without the graphic
being implemented yet
+ Added member variable m_pDynastyMember
+ Added AddParentRelation, AddSpouseRelation, and AddChildRelation
+ Added temporary functions SetDynastyMember and GetDynastyMember, which are just being used to flesh out the functionality of the dynasty wnd until the fancy family tree graphic is implemented
+ Implemented the core functionality of the dynasty screen
- However, it is missing the family tree graphic, and instead is using a temporary list grid of all of the members of the sovereign's family that you can click on to get the info for
- Also, I've run into a bug with the list grids where it is positioning the entries incorrectly. I think I know what is causing it, but I want to ask Cari/Jesse before I change any code to try to fix it. After that's fixed, though, the relations info and stats info should stop being positioned funny, and I've verified that the (invisible/poorly placed) data is correct
+ Added global function CreateRandomizedUnitType, which takes a unit type name and pointers to some unit type suggestions and generates a new unit
type out of it, adding it to the global vector of unit types but not saving it to xml or anything
+ However, it's not implemented yet, and just clones the first unit type suggestion for now
+ Fixed size and placement of dynasty screen list grids so that they display correctly
+ Children that have had a marriage arranged are listed as "betrothed" instead of "married" in the dynasty screen
+ Added missing images to various dynasty popups and report entries
+ Fixed some string/image mixups in the report entries
+ Fixed dynasty screen cutscene to display selected unit correctly, with animation
+ Created a new global function CreateRandomizedUnitType, which takes unit type suggestions and makes a new one out of it, adding it to the global
vector of unit types but otherwise not saving it anywhere else. It's not fully implemented, though, and just creates a clone of the first unit
suggestion passed in instead.
+ Slightly changed how stat calculation for units is done to support random unit types better
- Basically made two functions for setting a unit's level: SetLevel and GrowLevel. SetLevel should be called when initially creating a unit, as it looks in the level milestone info to get the stats that that unit should have. GrowLevel should be used on units that already exist and have a level, and it will grow the unit level by 1 and increase each stat by some percentage of the current value instead of looking in the level milestones again. Therefore, level milestones are useful for setting the stats of units that you create at arbitrary levels, but once a unit is created, they follow a different stat growth path.
- Because of this change, unit types created on the fly only need to set their stats when they are created, and don't need to worry about generating multiple level milestones to use as a path for ability growth.
+ Implemented more of the CUnitType function for creating a random unit type
- Randomizes unit stats
- Psuedo-randomizes equipment; basically, for each equipment slot, there is a chance of either equipping the item equipped in that slot by the suggested unit type passed in, equipping nothing, or equpping a completely random piece of equipment that fits in that slot and that the player satisfies the prereqs for.
+ Added line of succession information to the dynasty screen
+ Displayed where the quote for the unit is supposed to go, because I couldn't find a better place for it yet
+ Says how far away they are from the throne, or "King/Queen" if they are the current rulers
+ The succession order updates when people die, leave, or get added to the dynasty
+ Family members displayed in roughly oldest->youngest order in the dynasty screen list box, aka a breadth-first traversal of the family tree
that will eventually be displayed there
+ Implemented saving/loading of all the info in CUnitType in the game save file, for saving child unit types/NPCs
+ This fixes a bug in child unit types where they would get the wrong equipment on load
+ Added short display names for all the unit stats (e.g. Attack = ATK) for places where UI string length is cramped, like the dynasty screen
+ Randomized female unit types no longer get beards and will always equip one of the robes
+ Added a "capital city" for each player, which for now is just the first city built by that player
+ Fixed bug where setting the level of a champion unit didn't refresh all of the stats
********
* Quests *
Overview:
Throughout the course of the game, you'll be presented with the option to help the people of the land by embarking on Quests. Quests may trigger when a unit his a tile on the map, when your kingdom hits a given stat, or randomly.
Details:
+ This check-in introduces the initial (extremely basic) version of the quest system. Each player (both human and AI) has a Quest Manager (the class CQuestManager), which tracks all of their pending, active, completed and failed quests. Currently, active quests are updated every turn to see if they’ve been completed. Quest data is read in from XML from the Game\Data\English\Core Quests directory. The quest data structures are unfinished, but currently consist of a QuestDef, which contains the quest name, description, and trigger information. It also contains a number of QuestObjectiveDefs, which define the conditions that need to be met for the quest to succeed or fail.
+ Added a very simple test quest, “Damsel in Distress”, defined in QuestCityPop.xml, located in the Core Quests directory. When your kingdom hits a total population of 40, the quest dialogue pops up, tasking you with clearing out a swamp bandit goodie hut, which will appear in close proximity to your first city. When it is cleared out, the quest is completed, and a dialogue will pop up congratulating you.
+ Quests are now entirely event- and data-driven. Quests are only updated when specific events occur that may affect them (such as the population of a city changing, a monster being slain, or a goodie hut being cleared), which allows them to respond to changes immediately, without requiring constant condition checking.
+ Added world events for faction population change, and for a goodie hut being cleared.
+ The quest prompt now allows you to decline a quest.
+ Added a flag to CGoodieHut that identifies if it is the target of a quest. To access it, call CGoodieHut::GetIsQuestTarget( ). If the flag is set to TRUE, the goodie hut will not spawn a reward when cleared (as the quest itself will bestow any rewards we may want to give).
+ Added the ability for the quest system to support “fetch quests”, and updated the test quest “Damsel in Distress” so that it spawns a “damsel” item in your inventory, which then must be returned to your capital city to complete the quest. This also shows off the ability for the quest system to support multi-objective quests. As each objective activates, a dialog pops up to inform you what you need to do to complete it.
+ Added an event for when a unit enters a city.
+ Quests can now give gold as a reward for completing them successfully. The “Damsel in Distress” quest has been modified to give 500 gold on completion.
+ Added a new type of Game Object: Quest Locations. Similar to goodie huts, quest locations are placed on the map when you research certain technologies in the Adventure technology path (currently, researching Ruin Delving causes a small number of them to spawn around your capital). They are only visible and useable to a single player (though the functionality to allow any number of players to see a quest location exists). When a quest location is visited, it spawns a random quest, if one is available (currently only the test “Rats in the Basement” quest is set to trigger when a quest location is visited, and it is not flagged as repeatable, so only the first quest location visited will trigger a quest). At the moment, there is only one type of quest location, defined in Game\Data\English\Core Quests\CoreQuestLocations.xml, and it appears on the map with the kingdom inn cloth map icon and tile design as a placeholder.
+ Updated the Kingdom Report window with tabs to switch between the main view and the quest journal, which shows all the quest information for the player (and other players, if in debug mode).
+ Quests can now be flagged as repeatable if we want them to be able to appear more than once during the course of a game. They default to not repeatable, which means they may trigger once per player, per game.
+ Quest items can no longer be consumed or equipped.
+ Added a (very basic) Rats in the Basement quest that can be triggered by visiting a quest location.
+ Added events for visiting a quest location and unlocking a technology.
+ Expanded on the “Rats in the Basement” quest (renamed it to “Rats in the Ruins” to fit in better with the text I banged out for it, naturally we can always change this). It now has you clearing out a Rat Nest goodie hut, which results in you getting a “Dead Rat” quest item, and taking a few points of damage (scratches from the rats). You then have to return the Dead Rat to the Inn you received the quest from, which completes the quest, giving you a reward of 500 gold.
+ QuestDefs and QuestConditionDefs can now be assigned an arbitrary number of GameModifiers, which are applied upon completion of the quest/condition. Both test quests currently in the game, “Damsel in Distress” and “Rats in the Ruins” use them to give quest items, rewards, and (in the case of the rats) penalties.
+ Quest locations now remain on the map after being visited, and can be used in the quest itself (for example, the “Rats in the Ruins” quest has the player returning Inn quest location from which it is spawned as the final objective).
+ Quest data is now saved and loaded properly, and the save game version has been incremented (now at 11) to invalidate old save files.
+ Added a new event for when a unit is killed.
+ Added new quest condition trackers for killing units and building improvements, which allows those actions to be incorporated
into quest objectives.
+ Added an event for when a unit reaches a new level.
+ Quest can now be triggered by a unit reaching a specified level. A unit reaching a level can also be used as a quest condition.
+ Cleaned up the CQuestManager code to make it more modular, and easier to implement new quest triggers.
+ Added a Player game modifier that will spawn Quest Locations for that player, called SpawnQuestLocations. To use it, set the string value (StrVal) to the type of quest location you want to spawn (currently there is only one: QuestLocationTest), set Count to the number of locations you want, set Value to how much you want the number of locations to vary by (for example, if you set Count to 5 and Value to 3, between 2 and 8 quest locations will be spawned), and Radius to how far away from a city the location can appear (this functions as the maximum range; the minimum range is currently hard-coded to 4, and if Range is less than or equal to that, it is automatically bumped up to 5). Each quest location is spawned within the given radius of a random city owned by the player, so that they are distributed throughout your territory. Currently, a SpawnQuestLocations game modifier has been assigned to the Ruin Delving technology (Ruin_Delving_Altar, to be precise), so that when that technology is unlocked, 4 to 6 quest locations are spawned on the map.
******************************
* Faction and Sovereign Customization *
Overview:
Players now pick their sovereign and faction at the start of the game, or have the choice of creating their own. Saved races and sovereigns are saved out to the 'My Games/Elemental' directories of 'Units' and 'Races'.
Details:
+ Added missing AddRef for CCreateSovereignWndMessageData::GetFactionConfig ()
+ Added handling for drag end message for when items are dragged onto the unit scene view
+ Now uses passed-in faction config to initialize the sovereign unit type
+ Saves created unit type to the passed-in faction config
+ Unhide sets the faction spellbook name to TestSpellbook, instead of setting it as a starting spell
+ CopyDisplayTextIntoPlayer saves an internal name for the new faction, equal to the display name for now
+ Fixed bug in SetUnitTypeMale and SetUnitTypeFemale where it would skip unequipping some incompatible equipment because it was removing them while going
through the list and not updating the index correctly
+ Added m_lCustomizationPointsToAssign
+ Added GetPoints
+ SetUnitTypeMale and SetUnitTypeFemale call ResetInitialBackupHairAndClothes on g_pCreateSovereignAppearanceSubWnd, so it will keep the right hair and everything even if that subwnd isn't hidden at that point
+ Remembering hair and clothes when deselecting equipment
- People should play with it and see if it makes sense the way equipping/unequipping things behaves and is displayed now, because I tried out a few different combinations of displaying backup hair/clothes and whether equipment always overrides hair/clothes, and didn't find a way that felt particularly awesome. Right now, if you equip hair/clothes in a given slot, it remembers that when you equip some sort of equipment in that slot instead so that when you unequip the equipment, the hair/clothes are still there. But the entries don't appear equipped when there is a piece of equipment taking that slot instead, and equipping hair/clothes in a slot will still remove the regular equipment in that slot. This makes sense to me when I mess around with it, but other people should say if it doesn't and have other suggestions.
+ Made ToggleAbilityBonus public instead of private
+ Changed Callback to handle clicking and highlighting the same way the entries in create sovereign screen do
+ Made string controls non-transparent
+ Added UpdatePointsDisplay and OnEntryHighlighted
+ Replaced FillInfoForSelected with FillInfoForSelectedAbilityEntry and FillInfoForSelectedColorEntry
+ Changing abilities doesn't update the 3D scene anymore
+ Removed some unneeded refills of the ability and entry lists
+ Changed Callback to handle selection and highlighting of the various entries the same way the create sovereign screen does
+ Added bRecreateUnit parameter to Update3DScene
+ Update3DScene uses CreateRandomizedUnitType to make the unit for display
********
* Magic *
Overview:
You can now build up spell points and spend them on available magic spells. These can then be cast if you're tapping into the appropriate shards.
Details:
+ Mana Types
- Make simpler resource types for 'Fire Shard', 'Air Shard', etc...improvements give those
- List Global Player Resources and shards in the kindgom window
- Weed out Elemental Shards giving special mana types
- Not-Stored Generic resources calculating properly for the player
- easy APIs to grab the mana values from a player+ Fixed a problem with the stamp XML that was releasing too many refs from the tile data, causing the data to be trashed by the time the game tried to place a stamp.
+ Modified the spell casting code so that spells cannot be cast outside of their specified range.
+ Added a new XML tag “SpellType” to the SpellDef, which defines when a spell can be used. If set to “Strategic”, it can only be cast on the strategic map. “Tactical” spells can only be used in tactical battles, and “Universal” spells can be used anywhere.
+ Re-enabled spell casting. Currently, Volcanic Eruption is the only spell that shows up, since it’s the only one that’s had its type set to “Strategic”.
+ Fixed issue with CWorld::RaiseLandAtTile( ) and CWorld::LowerLandAtTile( ) not correctly adjusting the heights of the terrain.
+ Modified the spell casting selection graphic so that it turns red when the mouse is pointing at an invalid target (for instance, if the target is outside of the spell’s range), and green when it’s over a valid target. If the player attempts to cast the spell while over an invalid target, nothing will happen.
+ Added a SpellClass tag to the SpellDef XML, which dictates the conditions required for the spell to be cast. Current classes are “Offensive”, “Defensive”, “Terraform” and “Other”. Offensive spells cannot be cast on a tile that would affect the caster (which prevents the user from dropping a volcano on their sovereign and instantly losing the game). Terraforming spells cannot be cast on a tile with a unit or game object (i.e., improvement, goodie hut, resource, shard, ect.). Unless specified, all spells default to “Other”.
+ Added a SpellTargetType tag to the SpellDef XML, which defines where, and on what, a spell may be cast. Current target types include “FriendlyUnit”, “EnemyUnit”, “Monster”, “Self”, “FriendlyTerritory”, and “Any”. Unless specified, all spells default to “Any”.
+ Champion units other than the Sovereign are now able to cast spells (such as his children, after they come of age).
+ Created Mass Heal and Charm Monster spells, disabled the Volcanic Eruption spell. The Mass Heal spell can only be cast on friendly units, while the Charm Monster spell can only be cast on creature units.
+ There’s now only one generic type of mana, which is used to cast all spells, instead of the six (life, death, fire, water, air, and earth) we used to have.
+ Incremented the save game version to 12, as units now only save one current mana variable, rather than both the current and maximum values for each old type of mana.

****************
* Wandering Heroes *
Overview:
The world is now populated by a handful of wondering heroes, scouring the world for treasure and adventrure. They cannot be yet recruited, but give a nice XP boost if you best them in combat.
Details:
+ Created and added AiChampNPC. It is a class much like the AICreature class, a class to represent a player that is the AI brain for the NPC champs.
+ added faction type FACTION_TYPE_CHAMP_NPC
+ Added m_ulChampNPCPlayerID, GetChampNPCPlayerID(), IsWildCreaturePlayer(id), IsChampNPCPlayer(id), CreateChampNPCPlayer(), and GetChampNPCPlayer().
+ added m_ulChampNPCPlayerID to ctr
+ changed params of CreatePlayer() to also include a bool for whether or not the player being created is the NPC Champ player.
+ CreateChampNPCPlayer() creates a player to control the NPCs. Then creates 5 NPCs and puts them on the map.
+ when setting relations of players and creatures to PERMANENT_WAR, also set relations between the Champ NPC player and other players to be NEUTRAL.
+ added code so that the local player will not get the FIRST_CONTACT message from the NPC Champ player.
+ added a member vector of unit type pointers, so they can be saved and loaded
+ added function called StoreUnitType(), which takes a PUnitType param, and adds it to the vector
+ when Champ NPC player creates their 5 NPC champs from a randomized unit type, it now calls CAIChampNPC::StoreUnitType()
***********
* Leveling Up *
Overview:
You now get points to spend on stats when a unit levels up.
Details:
+ added member variable PUnitStatType m_pUnitStatType, initialized to NULL, set in ctr, SAFE_RELEASED in dtr.
+ removed member variable TString m_strUnitStatInternalName and adjusted code that used it to use m_pUnitStatType->GetInternalName() instead
+ removed code for the BONUS_VALUE part of the screen, since +/- buttons will now affect the stats cur value and there will no longer be a BONUS_VALUE section
+ displayed value for stat is m_fInitialValue + GetAddedValue().
+ GetAddedValue() returns result of m_pUnitStatType->GetAffectPerLevelUpPoint() * m_ulAddedPoints;
+ When LevelUpWnd is closed, stat increases are applied as before.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

The Beta 1G update was released this afternoon. I've downloaded it, but probably won't have a chance to play it until this weekend.

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Thanks Xiahou, I had almost forgotten about this! About time I dipped back in to it...

There's actually been a lot of developer journals released the last few weeks. Anyone interested in Elemental's lore, mechanics, gameplay, etc. would be well-advised to check them out!


EDIT: Whoops, forgot to include link....

Hmm, Stardock joining up with Random House to provide a backstory to Elemental. Interesting. There have been plenty of books based on games, and games based on books, but have they ever been jointly conceived from so early in the process like this?

Could be a cost effective and productive partnership, both parties working to their comparative advantages and reinforcing their joint product.

That said, having a bunch of non-named writers from a publisher is not a guarantee of a good or original story, so we could just see more Fantasy "cheese" like Dragon age. For that matter, they've already recycled the name Morrigan... meh.

Some footage of what next weeks Beta should look like. :2thumbsup:

Also, the release date is currently set for August- much sooner than I had expected....

I like the zoomed out map, looks a lot like the old maps in the LotR books.

Also, there's been quite a few previews released in the last week as well. Nothing terribly exciting in any of them, but they do contain a bit more new info.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

Also, the release date is currently set for August- much sooner than I had expected....

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I wouldn't count the eggs on that yet. Brad has said the release is largely going to depend on how good/bad the AI (for which he's still the primary programmer) is at that point, and that the game could easily be delayed if it's not up to his standards.

I just hope that Elemental is at least still released no later than September, as he's said that otherwise it won't be out til February. :sweatdrop:

Beta2 is out!
Here's a couple screens:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://img404.imageshack.us/img404/...1276327035.jpg
My capital city, ensconced within a protective cirque...


https://img541.imageshack.us/img541/...1276327044.jpg
A closer look...


https://img180.imageshack.us/img180/...1276327112.jpg
Extreme closeup!


https://img153.imageshack.us/img153/...1276352803.jpg
A different angle, that shows how protected we are geographically...

If you look closely at the city, you may notice a large number of gardens built throughout. These are a drawback to building a city away from fertile land. If I had a fertile land tile nearby, I could build a farm on it that could take the place of many of these gardens. At each stage of your city's growth, you only have so many usable tiles and having to dedicate so many to the food supply limits what you can use for more important structures- Often it felt like I was just filling my city with gardens and housing. Eventually, I alleviated this somewhat by founding a nearby town that had access to fertile land for a farm. But then, I'm outsourcing my city's food supply which would probably be a huge disaster if I lost my farming town. :sweatdrop: (Luckily, the AI is still fairly stupid at this point- so I shouldnt have to worry.)

Quote:

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I wouldn't count the eggs on that yet. Brad has said the release is largely going to depend on how good/bad the AI (for which he's still the primary programmer) is at that point, and that the game could easily be delayed if it's not up to his standards.

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Actually, according to Brad, the beta is well ahead of schedule. But either way I'm fine. I'll either be playing the retail game or the near-complete beta by this fall. :2thumbsup:

Oh... so tempting...

Can I still get into the beta if I pre-order now?

And as far as well-protected goes, just be glad modern artillery isn't in the game or you'd be looking at Dien Bien Phu. :P

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alexander the Pretty Good

Oh... so tempting...

Can I still get into the beta if I pre-order now?

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I believe the way it works is that whenever a new update comes out, all those that have preorded since the last one get in. So, in a week or so when the next update to Beta2 comes out, you'd get access. At least I think that's how it's supposed to work....

Quote:

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And as far as well-protected goes, just be glad modern artillery isn't in the game or you'd be looking at Dien Bien Phu. :P

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:sweatdrop:
They may not look it, but all those mountains to the rear are impassable.

You know, that game looks so good, i might actually having to install Impulse in order to play. Though, I would prefer a non-Impulse version or is there a way to play the game after you bought it without having impulse on?

Edit: Just pre-ordered it and actually installing Impulse now. I am going to do what I did Steam, and just only load it up when I want to play a game from it.

Edit4: "Cannot download datafile" that is the error message I am getting when I am trying to play.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Beskar

You know, that game looks so good, i might actually having to install Impulse in order to play. Though, I would prefer a non-Impulse version or is there a way to play the game after you bought it without having impulse on?

Edit: Just pre-ordered it and actually installing Impulse now. I am going to do what I did Steam, and just only load it up when I want to play a game from it.

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Once the game is installed, you only need Impulse to update it. You don't need to have it running or (afaik) even installed to play.

Quote:

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Edit4: "Cannot download datafile" that is the error message I am getting when I am trying to play.

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Find a way past that yet? I got lots of CTDs early in the beta, but I never had trouble launching the game. :shrug:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

Find a way past that yet? I got lots of CTDs early in the beta, but I never had trouble launching the game. :shrug:

---

I haven't. The residence I am staying at gets its internet through the Universities. The plus side is a cheap (£75 per year), unlimited, very fast internet (speeds of 6-10mb/s contantly).

Downside is, everything needs to be configured to use the internet in the proxy settings. While some games and programmes seem to work perfectly fine (Left4Dead, Steam, MSN, Firefox, Borderlands since MadMoxxi DLC), others don't (Games by EA, adobe flash installer plugin, etc). It seems this datafile is one of those things which fail to connect, thus making the beta inoperatable. Also, the datafile is meant to be part of the anti-piracy Stardock have in place for the beta, so it is something they will not be removing. I asked over on their forums anyway.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Beskar

Also, the datafile is meant to be part of the anti-piracy Stardock have in place for the beta, so it is something they will not be removing. I asked over on their forums anyway.

---

That sounds like it could be a bit frustrating....

I pre-ordered a while ago and have been playing around with Beta 2 for the last couple of days. I don't think you should feel like you are missing much yet.

Its a very clunky beta with zombie AI and basic issues (innability to save/reload) abound, over half the game is disabled for the Public beta.

That's the thing, they are still running a private beta before passing something out to the public. I can completely understand this from a marketing point of view, but it does tend to make the pre-order Beta a bit less meaty than one might (naively) imagine, and more like a PR stunt. Also, as the IP is still being built up (or in fact dictated by Stardock -not the beta players), there is such a wide constituency of opinions on what type of game Elemental should be that the forum discussions tend to be a bit rambling.

As far as i'm concerned, the game is shaping up to be an interesting 4X city based strategy game. The plans for tactical combat leave me a little cold, I'm not clear how they will work in practice or sure I'm too keen on them (this is one area where stardock has just decided for tiself what to do, which is of course their right!), but then no tactical combat has yet made it onto any public beta.

The game's premise of rediscovering and re-creating mankind and its civilisations (as if an appocalypse had occured in 1400 or so) means that the setting is very much Medieval/early renaissance tech, plus a helping of Magic and a side of pulp fantasy.

I am still highly dubious of the quality of the book which will accompany the game. As i think I posted before, I think its an interesting thing to do, I just don't know if a game designer's comparative advantage lies in novel writing.

I would also be very surprised to see anything released this summer. The repeated and heavy hints about "ready to take the time to make it right" etc strongly indicate to me that this won't be released before Feb 2011.

Yeah, between comments here, on the Elemental site, and on RPS I've decided to hold off on pre-ordering and just play the final product.

ok, I got around to playing this.

In short - It is Civ4.

It is the whole square city expansion system, turns, etc. Includes these odd random quests. Have a "hero unit" which goes around doing stuff.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alh_p

Its a very clunky beta with zombie AI and basic issues (innability to save/reload) abound, over half the game is disabled for the Public beta.

---

What?? Or more accurately, outside the zombie AI, what??? ~:confused:
I save and reload often... there's an autosave feature that's already in and functioning. The only limitation is that you must exit the game and re-launch to load the game. It has to do with the way the worlds are currently being created.

I've never heard a word about a public beta- where are you getting this idea from?

Edit: Beta2A will be out this week:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

This week we plan to release Beta 2-A of Elemental.

Once Beta 2-A goes out, we will be closing the beta for new users until Beta 3. To join the beta, simply pre-order the game.

Now, for those of you not used to being in a Stardock beta, let me emphasize once again: These betas are NOT fun. They are not supposed to be fun. They are NOT demos or representative of the final game play or even the final graphics.

What to expect from Beta 2-A

There have been a lot of game play changes based on player feedback.

In no particular order these are the areas we’ve been heavily modifying:

* Major changes to city building. Generally, a lot fewer improvements being built and the ones there have more impact. Generally speaking, you will only build 1 of a given improvement in a city. Better improvements will require higher level cities. 1 to 2 housing units is typically sufficient to go up (but food is more precious since you can’t crank out gardens anymore).
* More mobility in general (units get more moves)
* Monsters properly spawn based on toughness (i.e. generally no more crazy monsters right outside your base)
* AI improvements (still primitive though)
* More items
* More quests
* Beginning of cleanup to the tech tree
* Customize Sovereign enabled
* Lots of bug fixing (alt-esc crash fixed)
* Balance work on items, equipment, etc.
* Some graphics and animation improvements

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

I've never heard a word about a public beta- where are you getting this idea from?

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Ok, it's not a public beta. But because Stardock obviously can't send out un-quality assured code to its consumers, they are also running an internal Beta testing schedule. The Beta which pre-order customers have access to is in between a "public" Beta and an internal Beta. Essentially, it's very similar to Mount and Blade's development although Elemental is (currently) less complete/polished and hence less fun to test/play than Mount and Blade was.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xiahou

What?? Or more accurately, outside the zombie AI, what??? ~:confused:
I save and reload often... there's an autosave feature that's already in and functioning. The only limitation is that you must exit the game and re-launch to load the game. It has to do with the way the worlds are currently being created.

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Ok, well I've had a problem loading a saved game from a manual save file. Manual saves work fine. I've also had numerous other bugs, e.g. combat not triggering (and freezing the game) when attacking bandit hut. Plus graphics problems where city buildings jump about a bit or fail to be drawn by the 3d engine when zooming from cloth map to terrain.

I'm not making a big deal of these problems, my expectation is that the Beta isn't much fun and won't be for a while. Stardock are clearly keen to ensure no one is under any illusion to the contrary -as in your last post's spoiler.

Edit: I'm very pleased that they have at least fixed the memory leaks

It's an interesting experience being involved in the Beta though. I followed M&B's development very closely for over a year before its eventual release. Stardock are more consultative (or at least informative) than Taleworlds were, but it would be naive for anyone to think the pre-order Beta community really has that much sway over the product -Stardock have some very strong ideas on how the game should be. I should perhaps also be clear that they have every right to follow their vision, they are clearly the professionals!

Quote:

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I'm not making a big deal of these problems, my expectation is that the Beta isn't much fun and won't be for a while. Stardock are clearly keen to ensure no one is under any illusion to the contrary -as in your last post's spoiler.

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:yes:

Quote:

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It's an interesting experience being involved in the Beta though. I followed M&B's development very closely for over a year before its eventual release. Stardock are more consultative (or at least informative) than Taleworlds were, but it would be naive for anyone to think the pre-order Beta community really has that much sway over the product -Stardock have some very strong ideas on how the game should be. I should perhaps also be clear that they have every right to follow their vision, they are clearly the professionals!

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Actually, I sometimes worry that they listen too much to the community. There's been a couple of occasions where it sounds like they've been talked out of doing things I thought sounded good by the community. :sweatdrop:

Which were those things that you thought they should have kept but the community said otherwise?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Decker

Which were those things that you thought they should have kept but the community said otherwise?

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Well, for example, in the most recent beta, many players were complaining about the amount of housing structures you had to build to grow your town. I really didn't think you had to make that many and as I explained previously I thought the balancing act with food and housing on limited tiles was a nice strategic balancing act.

Here's the city from my earlier posts at the maximum population level:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://img690.imageshack.us/img690/...1276392850.jpg

I didn't really think that was too much urban sprawl- if anything, it still looked a bit tiny and yet:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brad

Major changes to city building. Generally, a lot fewer improvements being built and the ones there have more impact. Generally speaking, you will only build 1 of a given improvement in a city. Better improvements will require higher level cities. 1 to 2 housing units is typically sufficient to go up (but food is more precious since you can’t crank out gardens anymore).

---

Myself and a handful of others groused about this some, but I'm keeping an open mind about it and hoping/expecting that once I play with the changes, I'll like even better than the current. I just keep thinking in the back of my mind, "I hope they dont listen to the community too much and stick to their vision." Cuz frankly, you can't please everyone and if you try to, you're probably going to end up with a boring game.

Based on their track record, I think it's probably going to all work out for the best- but they definitely do seem to read beta players feedback and seem quick to implement anything they think is a good idea.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brad

Major changes to city building. Generally, a lot fewer improvements being built and the ones there have more impact. Generally speaking, you will only build 1 of a given improvement in a city. Better improvements will require higher level cities. 1 to 2 housing units is typically sufficient to go up (but food is more precious since you can’t crank out gardens anymore).

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I didn't really think that was too much urban sprawl- if anything, it still looked a bit tiny and yet:Myself and a handful of others groused about this some, but I'm keeping an open mind about it and hoping/expecting that once I play with the changes, I'll like even better than the current. I just keep thinking in the back of my mind, "I hope they dont listen to the community too much and stick to their vision." Cuz frankly, you can't please everyone and if you try to, you're probably going to end up with a boring game.

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I kind of understand why they might rationalise the list of buildings, there are a lot in Beta 2 which have the same effects and appear functionaly very similar. I also get that building 4*1 house is a bit lame write large over several cities. It would be simpler and easier for the player to build the "1 unit of housing" required to advance to the next city level in fewer steps. not sure what the downsides of that would really be either.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

Based on their track record, I think it's probably going to all work out for the best- but they definitely do seem to read beta players feedback and seem quick to implement anything they think is a good idea.

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:smile: I have to admit the possibility that the tactical combat decisions have had a disproportionate impact on my perception of how much they have been listening... :blush: