this makes me sad

last night i was thinking about veterans day, as i was listening to the radio. then came up a few commercials that made me shameful of what this society, at least in America, has become. these commercials were having sales and the like for veterans day.
what have we become? on memorial day we also have sales and picnics and have fun, even get a day off of school, but not much about our brave soldiers who gave up their lives to keep us free.
its really sad.
what is going on? why is our society almost completely throw away any military significance to these days?
does it have to do with the "wussification" of america?
~:(

The US Military is a national source of pride. I don't think there's a free country that recognizes those who serve in a higher regard.

The holiday season is gearing up, hoohaguy. If we had a national holiday commemorating Mother Goose's Nursery Rhymes there would be huge sales for it. No big deal

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Originally Posted by Proletariat

The US Military is a national source of pride. I don't think there's a free country that recognizes those who serve in a higher regard.

The holiday season is gearing up, hoohaguy. If we had a national holiday commemorating Mother Goose's Nursery Rhymes there would be huge sales for it. No big deal

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Aww... I'm disappointed...

I was hoping to see The Proletariat rage against blind consumerism, greed, and excess. :no:

I don't think there's a free country that recognizes those who serve in a higher regard.

Possibly Israel, maybe other threatened countries also... like taiwan....

on memorial day we also have sales and picnics and have fun, even get a day off of school, but not much about our brave soldiers who gave up their lives to keep us free.

I think to some people... the idea is to enjoy the day in honour of those that made it possible through thier sacrifices

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Originally Posted by Proletariat

The US Military is a national source of pride. I don't think there's a free country that recognizes those who serve in a higher regard.

The holiday season is gearing up, hoohaguy. If we had a national holiday commemorating Mother Goose's Nursery Rhymes there would be huge sales for it. No big deal

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israel, as littlegrizzly said, does.
for a minute, life stops as air-raid sirens go off. everyone, no matter where they are, even on the highway, stop, get out of thier cars (if on the road), and stand at attention.
why cant we do something similar here? i bet you of all the times the prez calls for a moment of silence, only a small percentage actually do it.

Unless I missed something, network television went on like any other night - Dancing with the Stars, etc. etc. :no:

It's not a military thing. It's a holiday-in-general thing these days. How much thought at Christmas is given to Christ? Most of the Christmas music in stores and on the radio is secular, and Santa and shopping get the majority of the attention. How much of Halloween is gearing up for All Saints' Day or warding off witchcraft and how much is trying to maximize candy consumption? Thanksgiving doesn't really lend itself to consumerism and so is mostly forgotten, the big holiday being the day afterward when all the Christmas sales kick into higher gear. The purpose of holidays in America now is consumption and materialism. Whatever meaning they may previously have had is mostly forgotten, and they're just an excuse for more commerce.

Ajax

I hate blind consumerism, greed and excess.

You happy now khaan?

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Originally Posted by CountArach

I hate blind consumerism, greed and excess.

You happy now khaan?

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Yes, but you're not Proletariat. You're just a corporate prostitute. :smash:

Feel dirty yet? :toff:

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Originally Posted by hooahguy

israel, as littlegrizzly said, does.
for a minute, life stops as air-raid sirens go off. everyone, no matter where they are, even on the highway, stop, get out of thier cars (if on the road), and stand at attention.
why cant we do something similar here? i bet you of all the times the prez calls for a moment of silence, only a small percentage actually do it.

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Same here, 3 minutes of silence a year it's taken very seriously.

http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=mkUYZ628_Hs

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Originally Posted by hooahguy

israel, as littlegrizzly said, does.
for a minute, life stops as air-raid sirens go off. everyone, no matter where they are, even on the highway, stop, get out of thier cars (if on the road), and stand at attention.
why cant we do something similar here? i bet you of all the times the prez calls for a moment of silence, only a small percentage actually do it.

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Because.... It would be stupid?

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Because.... It would be stupid?

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Why stupid? :inquisitive:

Encouraging everyone to take time and reflect on the terrible cost of war, however justifiable - to think of the faces and lives of those men and women lost to us in the flower of their youth - to imagine the real, painful, destructive cost of death on the battlefield, as if it were us lying beneath those serried ranks of uniform crosses, interred along with our own hopes and dreams - might be a reflection that helps more people appreciate how awful war is - an enterprise not to be undertaken lightly.

Particularly in regard to the Great War, so characterised by grainy film of young men grinning with joy as they march off to fight for country, flag and nonsense - stirred by false patriotism and driven by the views of their peers and leaders that suffocating to death in a blood-soaked mud-hole is somehow a glorious sacrifice - such an annual reflection might just stop the same fatuous patriotism and false demons being used to send more young people to die uselessly in foreign fields.

Two minutes a year when the cash tills, petty whingings and rat races suspend? I would argue it is stupid not to do so.

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Originally Posted by seireikhaan

Yes, but you're not Proletariat. You're just a corporate prostitute. :smash:

Feel dirty yet? :toff:

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:cry:

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Because.... It would be stupid?

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Distasteful as this attitude is to me personally; many brave young men have paid the ultimate sacrifice in defense of the freedom to publicly express one's feelings/opinions/protests without government sanction. I vehemently disagree that taking a moment of National silence to honor this is stupid, however I defend your right to express it.

Imo, the biggest downside of the elimination of the US military draft in 1973 and the institution of the All-Volunteer armed forces is being demonstrated on these military remembrance holidays today. Most American families are not directly affected, and have no loved one in the military putting their life on the line. Those that do bear the lion's share of sacrifice. Dad or Mom is away from home for extended periods of time, the spouse at home has to fill dual parenting roles and make up/get by on the lost income, the children are without Dad/Mom, the soldier misses some of the most special events in his children's lives and can never get them back etc... And this they voluntarily sacrifice for us along with the possibility of death/serious injury/psychological scarring that the violence of war can bring.

What do we voluntarily sacrifice in comparison to that? Hardly, if anything, at all. The very least we can do is take a few minutes from our busy little world and acknowledge them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYlrrAWCTRg

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Originally Posted by Video Description

On November 11, 1999 Terry Kelly was in a Shoppers Drug Mart store in Dartmouth, Nova Scotia. At 10:55 AM an announcement came over the store's PA asking customers who would still be on the premises at 11:00 AM to give two minutes of silence in respect to the veterans who have sacrificed so much for us.

Terry was impressed with the store's leadership role in adopting the Legion's "two minutes of silence" initiative. He felt that the store's contribution of educating the public to the importance of remembering was commendable.

When eleven o'clock arrived on that day, an announcement was again made asking for the "two minutes of silence" to commence. All customers, with the exception of a man who was accompanied by his young child, showed their respect.

Terry's anger towards the father for trying to engage the store's clerk in conversation and for setting a bad example for his child was later channeled into a beautiful piece of work called, "A Pittance of Time". Terry later recorded "A Pittance of Time" and included it on his full-length music CD, "The Power of the Dream".

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We watched that just before the minute of silence we observe in our special chapel at school. If someone had of talked, I would have hit them in the face.

But yes, holidays have lost their true meaning, I recognised that many a year ago.

Thanks for sharing that song and the story behind it pever. It is a beautiful song and got me all choked up.

Veteran's Day (Armistice Day) just isn't really a big thing here in the States. My guess is that it's due to the disparity of the casualty figures between the US and the other combatants of WWI. Coming between Halloween and Thanksgiving, and having been slowly absorbed into the Christmas shopping season probably doesn't help. Memorial Day is better, although it is still an excuse to watch cars go fast in a circle and drink beer. The price you pay for getting the day off, and it's basically the start of summer, but more people observe Memorial Day than Veteran's Day.

I like the way Armistice Day is honored in Europe, and I think it would be great if the VFW would push for a moment of silence at 11am. Just a quick reminder of the price we have paid for our freedom.

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Originally Posted by hooahguy

last night i was thinking about veterans day, as i was listening to the radio. then came up a few commercials that made me shameful of what this society, at least in America, has become. these commercials were having sales and the like for veterans day.
what have we become? on memorial day we also have sales and picnics and have fun, even get a day off of school, but not much about our brave soldiers who gave up their lives to keep us free.
its really sad.
what is going on? why is our society almost completely throw away any military significance to these days?
does it have to do with the "wussification" of america?
~:(

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Little late for this sentiment. I dunno if you've noticed but Christmas is a commercialized joke in the States compared to elsewhere. I'd be curious to know what percentage of Americans more readily associate Christmas with Santa Claus than Baby Jesus...

We have ANZAC day here (New Zealand) as our day to remember those who have made the untimate sacrifice.

As I recall this year we had anti-war protestors at the dawn service in Wellington (where I live).
This is despite the fact that we are not at war with anyone (we have some troops in Afganistan and East Timor).

Anti-war protests at a rememberance service - that I find far more offensive than advertising.

But as was stated above the utimate sacrifice paid was so that people like that could have their say.

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Originally Posted by El Diablo

We have ANZAC day here (New Zealand) as our day to remember those who have made the untimate sacrifice.

As I recall this year we had anti-war protestors at the dawn service in Wellington (where I live).
This is despite the fact that we are not at war with anyone (we have some troops in Afganistan and East Timor).

Anti-war protests at a rememberance service - that I find far more offensive than advertising.

But as was stated above the utimate sacrifice paid was so that people like that could have their say.

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indeed.
did you hear about the supreme court overturning a ban on the navy using sonar for their exercises off the coast of California, because the animals may get hurt? its madness, i tell you! madness that the lower courts would do that! thank god for the supreme court!

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Originally Posted by hooahguy

indeed.
did you hear about the supreme court overturning a ban on the navy using sonar for their exercises off the coast of California, because the animals may get hurt? its madness, i tell you! madness that the lower courts would do that! thank god for the supreme court!

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Madness? THIS IS SPARTA CALI!:charge:

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Originally Posted by hooahguy

did you hear about the supreme court overturning a ban on the navy using sonar for their exercises off the coast of California, because the animals may get hurt? its madness, i tell you! madness that the lower courts would do that! thank god for the supreme court!

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The animal rights people are under the control of the octo-squids. Sonar is our first line of defense when the attack finally comes. The Supremes are to be commended, but Breyer, Ginsburg, and Souter are compromised and must be eliminated.

i prefer our national security over the security of our marine friends (regarding fish, not the Marines)

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Originally Posted by hooahguy

i prefer our national security over the security of our marine friends (regarding fish, not the Marines)

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Then do it in the Atlantic...

but then, bythe enviromentalist POV, the navy would be hurting all the fish over there.....
also, the USN is based in san diego. do you know how much it will cost to move the entire fleet there?

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Originally Posted by hooahguy

also, the USN is based in san diego.

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Err......as a naval enthusist, I'd have to correct you.

The United States Navy is known as the "Two Sea Fleet", as it operates in both the Atlantic and Pacific. The US Pacific Fleet is based off Pearl Harbour, and the Atlantic Fleet is based off Norfolk, if I recall.

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do you know how much it will cost to move the entire fleet there?

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Again, being a Two Sea Navy, you would not be moving the entire fleet, as there is already one in the Atlantic. We could easily test sonar in the Atlantic as in the Pacific.

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Originally Posted by El Diablo

Anti-war protests at a rememberance service - that I find far more offensive than advertising.

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An anti-war protest at such a day, now that's something I can support. What better way can you pay respect to someone than to work against that which killed them?

But standing at attention? Oh please, unless Norway decides to send a UN contingent somewhere within the end of 2009, I won't stand at attention anymore for the rest of my life. No way. And certainly not in civilian clothing, that's just plain wrong.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

An anti-war protest at such a day, now that's something I can support. What better way can you pay respect to someone than to work against that which killed them?

But standing at attention? Oh please, unless Norway decides to send a UN contingent somewhere within the end of 2009, I won't stand at attention anymore for the rest of my life. No way. And certainly not in civilian clothing, that's just plain wrong.

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i cant tell if you're joking or being serious...... :brood: :no:

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Originally Posted by hooahguy

i cant tell if you're joking or being serious...... :brood: :no:

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He's serious and he's not the only one who feels that way. I personally don't sing our national anthem for the same reason - I don't like what it represents. If something is a symbol and you don't like what that symbol represents, why would you continue to support that symbol?

At least I am fairly sure that is what HoreTore is on about.

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Originally Posted by SwedishFish

Err......as a naval enthusist, I'd have to correct you.

The United States Navy is known as the "Two Sea Fleet", as it operates in both the Atlantic and Pacific. The US Pacific Fleet is based off Pearl Harbour, and the Atlantic Fleet is based off Norfolk, if I recall.



Again, being a Two Sea Navy, you would not be moving the entire fleet, as there is already one in the Atlantic. We could easily test sonar in the Atlantic as in the Pacific.

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i stand corrected, i guess.

but why should you hold sonar tests in the atlantic when the subs which you want to test it on are in the pacific?
anyhow, they will be both harming sea life....

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Originally Posted by CountArach

He's serious and he's not the only one who feels that way. I personally don't sing our national anthem for the same reason - I don't like what it represents. If something is a symbol and you don't like what that symbol represents, why would you continue to support that symbol?

At least I am fairly sure that is what HoreTore is on about.

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i dont think its a symbol. its a matter of moral, IMO. even if you dont like the government or whatnot, give respect to those who gave up your lives for you.

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Originally Posted by hooahguy

i cant tell if you're joking or being serious...... :brood: :no:

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There is an ideology called Pacifism. Many people support it, and many people can't understand what that concept means. Ghandi did. I like him more because of that.

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Originally Posted by hooahguy

i dont think its a symbol. its a matter of moral, IMO. even if you dont like the government or whatnot, give respect to those who gave up your lives for you.

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On the other hand, what if my morality tells me that by fighting back against the Government which got this person killed I can save more lives? Surely that moral argument would trump any other moral argument about respect for the dead.

Armistice Day is very much an anti-war day for me. I don't remember the soldiers, I remember the madness that send them to their doom and the horrors of war.

Let us not forget that the US has a Veteran's Day at 11-11. (Continental) Europe has several local variants of Remembrance Days. The death, the destruction is remembered.
I could be grateful for the sacrifice of soldiers. But...one nation's remembrance of military sacrifice would be another nation's remembrance of destruction. Why should I be grateful for the killing of Germans? Me, I want to remember together with the others in a spirit of peace and 'never again'.

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Originally Posted by hooahguy

i dont think its a symbol. its a matter of moral, IMO. even if you dont like the government or whatnot, give respect to those who gave up your lives for you.

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I see working to prevent the thing that killed them from killing more people as a very good way of showing respect for them.

"War would end if only the dead could speak."

Why not say what they are unable to say?

besides that, I'm relentlessly opposed to any notion of patriotism, nationalism or glorifying war. War is hell - noone deserves to be exposed to it.

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Let us not forget that the US has a Veteran's Day at 11-11. (Continental) Europe has several local variants of Remembrance Days. The death, the destruction is remembered.
I could be grateful for the sacrifice of soldiers. But...one nation's remembrance of military sacrifice would be another nation's remembrance of destruction. Why should I be grateful for the killing of Germans? Me, I want to remember together with the others in a spirit of peace and 'never again'.

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:2thumbsup:

the government didnt get them killed. our enemies killed them. they were thier because they wanted to be. if there was a draft, which there isnt, then you could say the government killed the unwilling folks. but they went over there on thier own decision to fight for us, and deserve that respect.

i personally look down on any anti-war protest on memorial days and at soldiers funerals.
on all other days i couldnt care less if they do that, but not on veterans/memorial days.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

besides that, I'm relentlessly opposed to any notion of patriotism, nationalism or glorifying war. War is hell - noone deserves to be exposed to it.

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true, war is hell, but that doesnt mean we shouldnt remember those who died. remembering the fallen soldiers isnt glorifying war or in any such matter. no one is being "exposed" to war. you dont even have to see any pictures of the dead. just pay them respect, and that doesnt include, IMO, having anti-war rallies.

war is a very important thing to human nature. it will never end, no matter what. world peace is an unrealistic idea. while the cause is noble, do you really think some warlord in africa will put down his AK-47 for world peace?
get real. :whip:

The wussafacation of America? I would like insecure men to stop running out on the kids and beating on there wives. I would also like them to grow a backbone. Thats the real problem these days.

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Originally Posted by Gregoshi

Unless I missed something, network television went on like any other night - Dancing with the Stars, etc. etc. :no:

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Sad... no body cares really. I mean, after 9/11, people cared... for awhile. It seems now people just treat that like another tragedy and walk away like nothing happens.

Plus, you show respect for the people who defened your country... If you don't, maybe you should go and fight then? :yes:

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Originally Posted by hooahguy

the government didnt get them killed. our enemies killed them. they were thier because they wanted to be. if there was a draft, which there isnt, then you could say the government killed the unwilling folks. but they went over there on thier own decision to fight for us, and deserve that respect.

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Are you... are you... serious...? America is far more aggressive than almost any other nation out there... I don't see how it is your enemy's fault for defending their homeland when threatened.

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Originally Posted by hooahguy

i personally look down on any anti-war protest on memorial days and at soldiers funerals.
on all other days i couldnt care less if they do that, but not on veterans/memorial days.

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Again, we are showing respect. We are not commenting on the personal actions of any one person - we are commenting on the actions of the machine which sent them there. This is our way of showing respect for the dead - we are preventing anyone else who is alive, and hence able to be saved, from having to go out and die.

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Originally Posted by hooahguy

war is a very important thing to human nature. it will never end, no matter what. world peace is an unrealistic idea. while the cause is noble, do you really think some warlord in africa will put down his AK-47 for world peace?

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Well excuse me if I'm just trying to make the world a better place. Just because war is inevitable (Which I don't believe it is) doesn't mean we shouldn't try to stop it. If no one fights for an idea then we can never make progress towards that idea.

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Originally Posted by hooahguy

i stand corrected, i guess.

but why should you hold sonar tests in the atlantic when the subs which you want to test it on are in the pacific?
anyhow, they will be both harming sea life....

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We have submarines in active service in the Atlantic Fleet, all able to be tested as well.

Oh, anyway, I always stuck with this quote:

"There cannot be democracy without dissent"

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Originally Posted by hooahguy

true, war is hell, but that doesnt mean we shouldnt remember those who died. remembering the fallen soldiers isnt glorifying war or in any such matter. no one is being "exposed" to war. you dont even have to see any pictures of the dead. just pay them respect, and that doesnt include, IMO, having anti-war rallies.

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What? Many anti-war rallies are protesting the government that is sending these young men to die. They do not get off to reports of dead soldiers, quite the contrary, they are paying a great amount of respect by trying to prevent more deaths.

The Westboro "Church" however.....

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Originally Posted by hooahguy

remembering the fallen soldiers isnt glorifying war or in any such matter.

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But the fact that people with your political ideas are behind such things makes my belly squirm ~;)

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Originally Posted by CountArach

Are you... are you... serious...? America is far more aggressive than almost any other nation out there... I don't see how it is your enemy's fault for defending their homeland when threatened.

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hmmm...... i am serious. you really think that terrorists bullets arent responsible for soldiers deaths? you think that the government is shooting their own soldiers?
wow, just wow. to completely blame the government on the deaths of soldiers. IMO, there are people pout there (islamic fundamentalists) who want me dead. these soldiers fight to keep me safe. they deserve all my respect. protest the government, but not on a day when we are to honor the soldiers, not the government.

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Originally Posted by CountArach

Again, we are showing respect. We are not commenting on the personal actions of any one person - we are commenting on the actions of the machine which sent them there. This is our way of showing respect for the dead - we are preventing anyone else who is alive, and hence able to be saved, from having to go out and die.

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you have 263 other days in the calendar to protest. heck, you can protest every day, but i dont think its right to have one on veterans and memorial day. but what i do think is fine are solemn, silent marches. not ones with screaming people in it crying for GWB to be impeached and stuff.

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Originally Posted by CountArach

Well excuse me if I'm just trying to make the world a better place. Just because war is inevitable (Which I don't believe it is) doesn't mean we shouldn't try to stop it. If no one fights for an idea then we can never make progress towards that idea.

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its one thing to fight for a cause in one country. but for 190+ countries? not everyone has your views, CA. im a realist in some ways and an idealist in others. world peace isnt a realistic idea. im not saying that i dont wish for world peace (b/c according to judaism if there is world peace the messiah will come) but i dont honestly believe it will come in our lifetime. maybe after the first nuclear war or something.

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Originally Posted by SwedishFish

We have submarines in active service in the Atlantic Fleet, all able to be tested as well.

Oh, anyway, I always stuck with this quote:

"There cannot be democracy without dissent"

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true, but there are subs in both fleets that need to be constantly tested. again, its no use to only test the subs in the atlantic, b/c the subs in the pacific also need to be tested constantly.
just because the sonar system work in one sub doesnt mean it will work in all of them. they need to be constantly tested. besides, then well probably upset the environmentalists on the east coast.....
no-win situation for the navy if the listen to the environmentalists.