Our American Brothers in Arms (Thankfull Words from the French Army)

Original.

Approximate translation:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

“We have shared our daily life with two US units for quite a while - they are the first and fourth companies of a prestigious infantry battalion whose name I will withhold for the sake of military secrecy. To the common man it is a unit just like any other. But we live with them and got to know them, and we henceforth know that we have the honor to live with one of the most renowned units of the US Army - one that the movies brought to the public as series showing “ordinary soldiers thrust into extraordinary events”. Who are they, those soldiers from abroad, how is their daily life, and what support do they bring to the men of our OMLT every day? Few of them belong to the Easy Company, the one the TV series focuses on. This one nowadays is named Echo Company, and it has become the support company.

They have a terribly strong American accent - from our point of view the language they speak is not even English. How many times did I have to write down what I wanted to say rather than waste precious minutes trying various pronunciations of a seemingly common word? Whatever state they are from, no two accents are alike and they even admit that in some crisis situations they have difficulties understanding each other.

Heavily built, fed at the earliest age with Gatorade, proteins and creatine - they are all heads and shoulders taller than us and their muscles remind us of Rambo. Our frames are amusingly skinny to them - we are wimps, even the strongest of us - and because of that they often mistake us for Afghans.

Here we discover America as it is often depicted : their values are taken to their paroxysm, often amplified by promiscuity lack of privacy and the loneliness of this outpost in the middle of that Afghan valley. Honor, motherland - everything here reminds of that : the American flag floating in the wind above the outpost, just like the one on the post parcels. Even if recruits often originate from the hearth of American cities and gang territory, no one here has any goal other than to hold high and proud the star spangled banner. Each man knows he can count on the support of a whole people who provides them through the mail all that an American could miss in such a remote front-line location : books, chewing gums, razorblades, Gatorade, toothpaste etc. in such way that every man is aware of how much the American people backs him in his difficult mission. And that is a first shock to our preconceptions : the American soldier is no individualist. The team, the group, the combat team are the focus of all his attention.

And they are impressive warriors! We have not come across bad ones, as strange at it may seem to you when you know how critical French people can be. Even if some of them are a bit on the heavy side, all of them provide us everyday with lessons in infantry know-how. Beyond the wearing of a combat kit that never seem to discomfort them (helmet strap, helmet, combat goggles, rifles etc.) the long hours of watch at the outpost never seem to annoy them in the slightest. On the one square meter wooden tower above the perimeter wall they stand the five consecutive hours in full battle rattle and night vision goggles on top, their sight unmoving in the directions of likely danger. No distractions, no pauses, they are like statues nights and days. At night, all movements are performed in the dark - only a handful of subdued red lights indicate the occasional presence of a soldier on the move. Same with the vehicles whose lights are covered - everything happens in pitch dark even filling the fuel tanks with the Japy (JP-8) pump.

And combat? If you have seen Rambo you have seen it all - always coming to the rescue when one of our teams gets in trouble, and always in the shortest delay. That is one of their tricks : they switch from T-shirt and sandals to combat ready in three minutes. Arriving in contact with the enemy, the way they fight is simple and disconcerting : they just charge! They disembark and assault in stride, they bomb first and ask questions later - which cuts any pussyfooting short.

We seldom hear any harsh word, and from 5 AM onwards the camp chores are performed in beautiful order and always with excellent spirit. A passing American helicopter stops near a stranded vehicle just to check that everything is alright; an American combat team will rush to support ours before even knowing how dangerous the mission is - from what we have been given to witness, the American soldier is a beautiful and worthy heir to those who liberated France and Europe.

To those who bestow us with the honor of sharing their combat outposts and who everyday give proof of their military excellence, to those who pay the daily tribute of America’s army’s deployment on Afghan soil, to those we owned this article, ourselves hoping that we will always remain worthy of them and to always continue hearing them say that we are all the same band of brothers”.

A Backroom Thanksgiving. :2thumbsup:

an American combat team will rush to support ours before even knowing how dangerous the mission is - from what we have been given to witness, the American soldier is a beautiful and worthy heir to those who liberated France and Europe.

Amen to that!

Who cares about the voice of a french soldier anyway ? We all know they're cheese eating surrendering monkeys ~:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Meneldil

Who cares about the voice of a french soldier anyway ? We all know they're cheese eating surrendering monkeys ~:rolleyes:

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I really wouldn't call that stuff cheese

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Originally Posted by Meneldil

Who cares about the voice of a french soldier anyway ? We all know they're cheese eating surrendering monkeys ~:rolleyes:

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Ah hah! Finally an admission from a Frenchman! (you should also notice how I used a capitol "F" ~;) )

~;p

Damn. I hate to use the word "heartwarming" -- it feels almost cliche -- but it feels appropriate in this case. That article brought a smile to my face like no other has in some while. :bow:

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Originally Posted by Martok

Damn. I hate to use the word "heartwarming" -- it feels almost cliche -- but it feels appropriate in this case. That article brought a smile to my face like no other has in some while. :bow:

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Agreed. I had a strange burning in my eyes when I read it. I'm not sure why, maybe someone popped a tear gas canister nearby or something. ~;)

Thanks for posting that. Classy piece.

agreed, an interesting piece.

i respect both the french and the US military tradition.

This just in:

French soldiers look like Afghanis, friendly fire ensues.

:2thumbsup:

That's a nice article.

I wonder how you came about it? ~:confused:
Has your Francophilia gotten you to read French blogs? I note that even your YouTube is French nowadays. Aaahh...the sweet, tempting lure of 'la douce France'...

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Heavily built, fed at the earliest age with Gatorade, proteins and creatine - they are all heads and shoulders taller than us and their muscles remind us of Rambo. Our frames are amusingly skinny to them - we are wimps, even the strongest of us - and because of that they often mistake us for Afghans.

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I'll never get used to this. Americans are so bulky. ~:eek:

There are obese people in France. There are muscular men in France. But what is distincly American, is that odd combination between the two. Fit young men weighing twice as much as I. Always in their baggy clothes, impossible to tell whether fat or muscle is hidden beneath the huge clothes they wear. It's only the men. The women are normal. Americans remind me of elephant seals on South Georgia. There too, the males are twice as large as the females. And as with Americans, one will quickly regret confusing bulk with 'slow and fat'.

To think some of them fight live grizzly bears for sports! http://matousmileys.free.fr/anbet2.gif

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Ici on découvre l’Amérique, comme souvent elle est dépeinte : les valeurs qui sont les leurs sont ici portées à leur paroxysme, amplifiées par la promiscuité et la solitude du poste au milieu de cette vallée Afghane. Honneur, Patrie.

[Here we discover America as it is often depicted : their values are taken to their paroxysm, often amplified by promiscuity lack of privacy and the loneliness of this outpost in the middle of that Afghan valley. Honor, motherland - everything here reminds of that: the American flag floating in the wind above the outpost, just like the one on the post parcels.]

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I can't help but be reminded of 'arrse', that British armypedia. Even in the - rather crude - translation above, the difference in language, refined observations, and manners is striking.
The English gentleman is still an example to the world. But beyond that, I do wonder whether my shock was owing to my lack of experience with 'barrack language', or owing to different cultural expectations. Brenus will have to enlighten me about French army standards.

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Originally Posted by Meneldil

Who cares about the voice of a french soldier anyway ? We all know they're cheese eating surrendering monkeys ~:rolleyes:

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a) Yes, I know. b) It already belongs to a different world. It's history, where it belongs. Why care about the old?

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

I'll never get used to this. Americans are so bulky. ~:eek:

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Haven't been to the US yet, but I've been surprised by the size of the average Canadian student. They're indeed bulky. Most of them have arms larger than my legs ;-( Too bad they can't dress properly (ie. not like a 16 years old baseball player when they're 25).

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a) Yes, I know. b) It already belongs to a different world. It's history, where it belongs. Why care about the old?

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It just reminded me of the good old times, when every topic in the backroom was about how France is bad, how France did that, how France did this. :clown: I wasn't trying to bash anyone or anything like that.

So here I go for my serious and pointless comment :
"I don't have much respect for the current French military, nor for any other military actually, but glad to see that French and American soldiers can get along pretty well despite what have happened in the last few years".

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

That's a nice article.

I wonder how you came about it? ~:confused:
Has your Francophilia gotten you to read French blogs? I note that even your YouTube is French nowadays. Aaahh...the sweet, tempting lure of 'la douce France'...

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:laugh4: I've already told you of my backroom epiphany. Maybe my biggest problems were with de Gaulleism (which in the proper context, I agree with) and Parisians (who seem to share many traits with New Yorkers); education changes perceptions, so does fighting alongside someone. Besides, without French influence Belgian beer wouldn’t be nearly as good as it is.

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Originally Posted by Meneldil

It just reminded me of the good old times, when every topic in the backroom was about how France is bad, how France did that, how France did this. :clown: I wasn't trying to bash anyone or anything like that.

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Oh but they still are here my friend. However, eventually one discovers that it is best not to criticize someone for being arrogant and rude by being arrogant and rude. ~;)

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Originally Posted by Meneldil

It just reminded me of the good old times, when every topic in the backroom was about how France is bad, how France did that, how France did this. :clown: I wasn't trying to bash anyone or anything like that.

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I don't mind you being angry about it. You are, for a start, absolutely right. But, and this is my usual consideration, is it the whole story?

What was written on French forums in 2004? Was it not a mirror image? Anti-Gallicism and anti-Americanism of this period were quite alike. A political decision, reduced to an innate moral deficit of an entire people, this is how the mutual political decisions to go or not to go into 'Iraq' were described. Ignorant, fat and trigger-happy. That is what Americans were described as. And this is what apparently caused them to attack Iraq. Just as being a cheese eating surrender monkey is what made France decide not to join.

But what is written on forums, I don't care about.

The shock was that the US and UK governments, amidst all their other lying and spinning, played the francophobe card. ('Surely we are not wimpy French? We are at war, people! A war on terror! Unlike the surrender monkeys, we do attack when under imminent threat from Iraq')
This was an outrage.

However, I will not have a holier than thou attitude about it. Firstly, that tends to bounce back at you at some point. Secondly, no French government ever played the anglophobe card?

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

eventually one discovers that it is best not to criticize someone for being arrogant and rude by being arrogant and rude.

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But...I love arrogant and rude! (And even more so in women :embarassed:)

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all of them provide us everyday with lessons in infantry know-how. Beyond the wearing of a combat kit that never seem to discomfort them (helmet strap, helmet, combat goggles, rifles etc.)
[...]
they are all heads and shoulders taller than us and their muscles remind us of Rambo. Our frames are amusingly skinny to them - we are wimps
[...]
And combat? If you have seen Rambo you have seen it all
[...]
To those who bestow us with the honor of sharing their combat outposts and who everyday give proof of their military excellence, to those who pay the daily tribute of America’s army’s deployment on Afghan soil, to those we owned this article, ourselves hoping that we will always remain worthy of them and to always continue hearing them say that we are all the same band of brothers”.

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Well if I were a wimpy, 55 kilo French soldier with :daisy: equipment and stuck in Afghanistan, I'd make sure to bond with a few 246lbs American Rambos too...


Might as well share some of my opinions. Frenchmen are unshakable in their arrogance and couldn't care less what people think. Americans, on the other hand, are not and do, so they love to hear what the world thinks of them. For all their tough talk, they just want to be liked. :hug:

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They have a terribly strong American accent - from our point of view the language they speak is not even English. How many times did I have to write down what I wanted to say rather than waste precious minutes trying various pronunciations of a seemingly common word? Whatever state they are from, no two accents are alike and they even admit that in some crisis situations they have difficulties understanding each other.

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Most US accents don't pose a problem to me. Canadian, Oz, NZ and South Africa don't either. It are the minority British Isles accents that get me. A Scotsmen, a scouser and even the Irish might as well speak in Icelandic and it wouldn't make them any more comprehensible to me.

(Which reminds me of one of my pet peeves. Why is it so difficult to get a DVD with English programs and movies subtitled in English? I can't watch them dubbed, this destroys a movie for me. And I can't always understand English programs without subtitles.
I've got all Blackadder DVD's. In translation, the puns and wittycisms are lost. In English, it goes well over my head and I don't understand the half of it. Fortunately, I got hold of a few subtitled copies.

Surely, there must be a huge market of people like me? Non-native speakers who insist on watching English programs in English, but who do need the aid of the written word?)

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And that is a first shock to our preconceptions : the American soldier is no individualist. The team, the group, the combat team are the focus of all his attention.

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The rule is: Americans are indivualists with a great community and team spirit. The French thrive on communities, but lack any team spirit or community values. :shame:

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an American combat team will rush to support ours before even knowing how dangerous the mission is - from what we have been given to witness, the American soldier is a beautiful and worthy heir to those who liberated France and Europe.

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Surpringly for many Americans, or maybe not, there is always genuine respect for the Americans who died in WWII. It is part of mainstream common sense. Even in 2004, during the sixtieth anniversary of Normandy, the low-tide in Transatlantic relations didn't really interfere with it.

“Brenus will have to enlighten me about French army standards.”:
I can’t help to much on this. In 1979, the standards were quite different. The Army was different.
When I joined the French Army was still equipped with material like sub-machine guns MAT 49 and rifles MAS 49-56. The figures at the end are the years of production.
So, a sub-machine gun produced in 1949 and a rifle produced in 1949 then modified in 1956. Well, let say material used by my father in (almost) Vietnam and Algeria. He could have used them. Because in fact in Indochina he used US weapons (Thompson and USM1) and some Japanese machine-gun.
The Russian had at the time the AK47 and US the M16.

The mentality at the time was really anti socialo-communist with a quite understanding with Le Pen position.
However, it was as well a formidable tool of integration with the conscripts system.
Some learned the hard reality of driving a tank (and to do the maintenance) and to change the caterpillar under the rain and in the mud of Mailly when they were used to drive a Jaguar (the car, not the plane)…
Armenians from Marseilles mixed with the Turks from Lyon, Chti with the Black feet from Avignon, all these men lost in the Middle of Alsace when suddenly the ones from the Martinique were confronted with the Alsacians speaking their own language.
And of course villages’ names almost always finishing by “heim” or “berg”.

The French Army “legend” is actually based on Indochina and Algeria. Military vocabulary used a lot of Arab words, as chouf, mechta, djebbel, baraka… In Sarajevo, he hills around the towns were named like the one around Dien Bien Phu (Anne-Marie, Béatrice, Claudine, Eliane, Françoise, Gabrielle, Huguette (and the most known) Isabelle, and Julliete.
My promotion’s was named about a Indochina veteran who was Chasseur Alpin and volunteer to jump on Dien Bien Phu when the battle was lost.

The training was and is probably still hard. I started with a platoon of 36. We ended 15 graduated.
The French Army trained in Jungle warfare in Guyana and Desert warfare in Djibouti. And believe me, Commando Centre No1 in Collioure (sp?) and Mont Louis is nothing to do with tourism. I did HATE these tourists taking me in picture when I was suffering and sweating on the cables and various obstacles… 4 hours of sleep in 3 days, pain, hard work, explosives,
Commando techniques on how to strangle (or knife) a guard, to blow a train or a bridge, training pushing the limits so far that you become just a big huge pain with red eyes without mind but one will: to go to bed….

We were not so impressed by the US army at that time I have to say.
But we never question the courage of the US. Just their capacity to endure…
It is what this letter is saying. Hey look, they are like us. Proud of their flag, proud of what they are… Honneur et Patrie, Honour and Motherland, is what WE, French, have on our Regimental Flag.
This letter is in fact saying that finally the US Army is reaching our level.
You spoke about arrogance? There you are.

I was 63 kg when I joined, 70 after one year of training, and nothing was fat… But we French are short. I had to admitted it when working in Yugoslavia, when you can always see where I am on a picture within a group of Serbs, Croats or Bosnians, yeah, the shorter one, right there…

“The French thrive on communities, but lack any team spirit or community values”. No entirely true. Of course, in the Army you function as a team, but you will find the same kind of attitude in MSF, MDM or others charities. We do have steam spirit when there is a need or an incentive…

“there is always genuine respect for the Americans who died in WWII”: Yeap. And none of as will ever compare the US soldiers with Nazism.

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Originally Posted by Meneldil

I don't have much respect for the current French military

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Originally Posted by Brenus

I joined

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Which reminds me of Dans la Tête.

That's, hilarious? :confused:

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Which reminds me of Dans la Tête.

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This is America speak American

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

What was written on French forums in 2004? Was it not a mirror image? Anti-Gallicism and anti-Americanism of this period were quite alike. A political decision, reduced to an innate moral deficit of an entire people, this is how the mutual political decisions to go or not to go into 'Iraq' were described. Ignorant, fat and trigger-happy. That is what Americans were described as. And this is what apparently caused them to attack Iraq. Just as being a cheese eating surrender monkey is what made France decide not to join.

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I was one, if not, the most vocal French bashers at that time...
I want to say I'm sorry to you Louis and especially you Meneldil because my attacks were very unfair. At the time I was still in the military and my mindset was quite self righteous (of course that really hasn't changed much, has it!!!)

I did enjoy the article and it is a good reminder of the ties the French and the Americans have had and how disrespectfully we treat the very folks that supported us during our kicking the everloving crap out of those damn Limey pig dogs!!!:laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Brenus

Yeap. And none of as will ever compare the US soldiers with Nazism.

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Don't worry, the US has the democratic party for that!!!:laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Which reminds me of Dans la Tête.

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Heh, heh. Fate prevails. Always.

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Originally Posted by Brenus

But we never question the courage of the US. Just their capacity to endure…
It is what this letter is saying. Hey look, they are like us. Proud of their flag, proud of what they are… Honneur et Patrie, Honour and Motherland, is what WE, French, have on our Regimental Flag.
This letter is in fact saying that finally the US Army is reaching our level.
You spoke about arrogance? There you are.

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Arrogance is as necessary a part of a soldier's kit as a helmet and rifle, IMO. As is a personal appreciation of his likely fate - and measured gratitude when he escapes that presumed fate, the one his brothers-in-arms met.

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Originally Posted by article

...an American combat team will rush to support ours before even knowing how dangerous the mission is - from what we have been given to witness, the American soldier is a beautiful and worthy heir to those who liberated France and Europe.

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My time in the American Army straddled two armies, the 'Nam-era draftee army (into which I was inducted), and the late 70's and 80's all-volunteer army. To me - and this is only a personal impression - that first army, the sons of WWII soldiers, saw immediately the futility of 50's and 60's missions and the absurdities of war and military service in general.

While not outright rejecting those missions and absurdities, they looked at them with jaundiced eyes, suspecting ineptitude, if not incompetence in their leadership. Shake-and-Bake Lieutenants, Up-or-out career-climbing field-grade officers, and an emasculated NCO Corps left these draftee city-kids fighting a jungle war without trustworthy leadership. Result: a body of constantly-transitioning soldiers, necessarily more concerned with their own personal survival than mission accomplishment or their buddy's welfare.

I don't mean that as a slam against the soldiers; heck... I was one of them. Rather, I blame the leadership, from Company Commander to up to policy-maker.

Then VOLAR happened. Draftees left in droves. Those who stayed (and converted to volunteer from draftee) got money, better barracks, actual accomodation of families (no more: "If the Army wanted you to have a wife, they'd have issued you one!"), treatment as a professional. A new wind blew in. Some of those winds went too far (waaaay-relaxed grooming standards, voluntary officer-saluting, perma-prest uniforms), but after 5-6 years (by 1978) they found the happy medium.

Helping this effort (tho' they couldn't have known it at the time) the army disbanded most of the SpecOps units, and spread their NCO Corps among the regular Army. This had a very large positive effect on RA infantry, engineer, arty, and other combat arms units. These guys knew how to build teams, and were demonstrably expert in their specialty fields. Setting the example, and encouraging excellence and leadership (that 'arrogance' we spoke of before), those fellas re-formed the NCO Corps, who in turn re-formed my army.

By the time I got tagged as Platoon Sergeant, ordinary soldiers no longer had to be 'encouraged' to join in mission-accomplishment. Rather, my main job seemed to be to hold back (a little) their enthusiasm, so as to direct it where it'd be best used.

OK, I've rattled on long enough now about the olden times. If you've read this far, please accept my apologies, and gratitude. :)

In sum: IMO the American soldier reflects his nation, and always has. If the country is sad and in malaise, so is he. If the country is optimistic and proactive, so is he.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

This is America speak American

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I'm sorry, but I couldn't find the video in Spanish.

YouTube, however, does has a version with English subtitles.

-~-~-~-~-<o0O0o>-~-~-~-~-

Two more art school videos, just for fun. Neo-Nouvelle Vague? Maybe not in style, but they are new, and vague, and they sure took their lessons from Jean-Luc Godard:

Autoroute - Pixar meets David Lynch. (The full text is Bonsoir! Un café s'il vous plaît. Serré - Good evening. One coffee please. Strong. ('espresso'))
'All you need for a movie is a gun and a girl' - Jean-Luc Godard.

Psyche. Pretty.
Godard: 'To be or not to be. That's not really a question'

What do all three movies mean? Beats me. Or is that asking the wrong question about them? Are these movies neo-existentialist, a continuation of Camus? Then we need not seek clarity and meaning when there are neither.
Godard taught film the cinematic consequence of Camusian existentialism: 'To me style is just the outside of content, and content the inside of style, like the outside and the inside of the human body. Both go together, they can't be separated'

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Originally Posted by KukriKhan

OK, I've rattled on long enough now about the olden times. If you've read this far, please accept my apologies, and gratitude. :)

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It is a distinct pleasure to have you back.

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

I'm sorry, but I couldn't find the video in Spanish.

YouTube, however, does has a version with English subtitles.

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The power of French cinema is incomprehensible to my American brain. I bow to Gallic superiority.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

The power of French cinema is incomprehensible to my American brain. I bow to Gallic superiority.

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I don't understand it either. In fact, I haven't got a clue what it's all about. ~:confused:

That's why I knew it would look way cool and impressive to all of you guys. People are always more impressed by what they don't than by what they do understand. :sweatdrop:

Which, in a rare case of honesty, reveals to you one of the main tricks of the trade of Gallic flash intellectualism. Heck, one can build a career out of it.

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Originally Posted by KukriKhan

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Heh, heh. Fate prevails. Always.



Arrogance is as necessary a part of a soldier's kit as a helmet and rifle, IMO. As is a personal appreciation of his likely fate - and measured gratitude when he escapes that presumed fate, the one his brothers-in-arms met.



My time in the American Army straddled two armies, the 'Nam-era draftee army (into which I was inducted), and the late 70's and 80's all-volunteer army. To me - and this is only a personal impression - that first army, the sons of WWII soldiers, saw immediately the futility of 50's and 60's missions and the absurdities of war and military service in general.

While not outright rejecting those missions and absurdities, they looked at them with jaundiced eyes, suspecting ineptitude, if not incompetence in their leadership. Shake-and-Bake Lieutenants, Up-or-out career-climbing field-grade officers, and an emasculated NCO Corps left these draftee city-kids fighting a jungle war without trustworthy leadership. Result: a body of constantly-transitioning soldiers, necessarily more concerned with their own personal survival than mission accomplishment or their buddy's welfare.

I don't mean that as a slam against the soldiers; heck... I was one of them. Rather, I blame the leadership, from Company Commander to up to policy-maker.

Then VOLAR happened. Draftees left in droves. Those who stayed (and converted to volunteer from draftee) got money, better barracks, actual accomodation of families (no more: "If the Army wanted you to have a wife, they'd have issued you one!"), treatment as a professional. A new wind blew in. Some of those winds went too far (waaaay-relaxed grooming standards, voluntary officer-saluting, perma-prest uniforms), but after 5-6 years (by 1978) they found the happy medium.

Helping this effort (tho' they couldn't have known it at the time) the army disbanded most of the SpecOps units, and spread their NCO Corps among the regular Army. This had a very large positive effect on RA infantry, engineer, arty, and other combat arms units. These guys knew how to build teams, and were demonstrably expert in their specialty fields. Setting the example, and encouraging excellence and leadership (that 'arrogance' we spoke of before), those fellas re-formed the NCO Corps, who in turn re-formed my army.

By the time I got tagged as Platoon Sergeant, ordinary soldiers no longer had to be 'encouraged' to join in mission-accomplishment. Rather, my main job seemed to be to hold back (a little) their enthusiasm, so as to direct it where it'd be best used.

OK, I've rattled on long enough now about the olden times. If you've read this far, please accept my apologies, and gratitude. :)

In sum: IMO the American soldier reflects his nation, and always has. If the country is sad and in malaise, so is he. If the country is optimistic and proactive, so is he.

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Let me start by saying that I have the highest respect for soldiers serving democracies, and the USA in particular.

Do you ever wonder if your particular opinions were a result of generational differences? I mean, do guys 10 years older or 10 years younger generally feal different about war (in general) than you do?

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Originally Posted by Fenring

Do you ever wonder if your particular opinions were a result of generational differences? I mean, do guys 10 years older or 10 years younger generally feal different about war (in general) than you do?

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Sure. But, it's not just generational it also has to do with one's individual life experiences, and ones testosterone level. I have several relatives who were badly psychologically damaged by the Vietnam war. So when I turned 18 I did not even consider going off to fight for the flag. Now I'm 30 my aggression and desire for adventure have dimmed somewhat, but strangely I value my country and my flag much much more.

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Originally Posted by Fenring

Let me start by saying that I have the highest respect for soldiers serving democracies, and the USA in particular.

Do you ever wonder if your particular opinions were a result of generational differences? I mean, do guys 10 years older or 10 years younger generally feal different about war (in general) than you do?

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Good, and interesting question. At age almost-58, I find that age, as a pro-war or anti-war determinant doesn't work reliably. But, I can make a generalized statement that, in my experience, very young (13-19 year olds) men, and over-45 women and men who have never been in the military are the most likely to clamour for military action to be taken when some 'wrong' has been done, or threat perceived. In the gap - men and women aged 20-45, it runs about 50%-50% pro- or con-war in general.

Among those who serve or have served, regardless of age or gender, the conversation seldom judges whether war in general, or a particular war is right or wrong. Rather, they talk logistics: what it would take to achieve some military goal. What factor was overlooked in some previous conflict. That kind of thing. There seems an acceptance that armed conflict has been, is, and shall likely be, inevitable.

The overwhelming majority of vets I personally know agree with "The Powell Doctrine" ("Don't Go; but if you must: Go Big, with a specific, measureable goal").

I hope that answered your fine question, Fenring.

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Originally Posted by KukriKhan

I hope that answered your fine question, Fenring.

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It does. Thank you :bow:

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Originally Posted by KukriKhan

Among those who serve or have served, regardless of age or gender, the conversation seldom judges whether war in general, or a particular war is right or wrong. Rather, they talk logistics: what it would take to achieve some military goal. What factor was overlooked in some previous conflict. That kind of thing. There seems an acceptance that armed conflict has been, is, and shall likely be, inevitable.

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Very true. I never thought of that before. And yes, the Army is a good barometer of the state of the U.S. The Marines are the same; crazy doesn't change. ~;p

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

The Marines are the same; crazy doesn't change. ~;p

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God Love them. Training to wade through the surf and run across an open beach AT a machinegun nest wearing nothing but a shirt and a whole lot of pride. Couldn't have done it myself.

It's a sad statement on humanity that we have a need for men to do such, but I am damn glad we have them.

“I mean, do guys 10 years older or 10 years younger generally feal different about war (in general) than you do?”.
I don’t know if it is due to age or experience of wars.
I am still convinced some wars have to be fought. I am a pacific man, not a pacifist. That is due to my education and culture.
I am not proud to be French because I did nothing for it. I have born French. The fact that Victor Hugo, Voltaire and Jaures (list is not exhaustive) were French have nothing to do with me, in my achievements.
But, somewhere I am proud to belong to France, to be part of the entity.
Strange but true I succeed the reconciliation this two feelings.
The Flag in the wind still move me, to present arms when the flag raised to the sky was always a source of pride and emotion, don’t ask why…

When I joined, I saw war like an adventure quite far in the horizon. I was hoping to go in French African interventions, Chad, Ivory Cost or other things, but not really a really open war against the Red.
Then I was trained to face a Red Invasion, Red Tempest from the East… The reality of war still didn’t occur to me, even with the attack on the paratroopers in Lebanon and the Falkland (against the British, but it made a European involvement in a war more real).

Then I went to war. Amazingly enough not as a soldier but working in Charities.
I enjoyed it. Shouldn’t say it, but I enjoyed the adrenaline rush, I enjoy to save lives, I enjoy to cross check points or to cross corridors under the permanent fear of attack.
Even what I saw there (and you don’t want to know what I saw. No you don’t), the fact that I went under shelling, bullets flying around me, misery and refugees didn’t really affect this feeling.
Then I went in a looted house. I saw the pictures on the floor. You know, these stupid pictures, I and my girlfriend in the sea, I and my mates in holidays, mum and dad, all these stupid pictures, not really well framed, colours fading away, spread on the floor. The notbook of a young teenager left open, of furniture broken, some papers burned on the floor, the smell of rotten blankets, the hole in the roof, and the cold, the freezing cold of Bosnia in winter…
And the reality of war is this. You can find another job, you can rebuild a house, you can even overcome the lost of your family, but the pictures of you when you were four are lost for ever.
These pictures came the symbol of war, the lost for ever of things.

Wars are done against real people. We kill and injure real people.
I saw the young soldiers who will live all their live on a bed because a bullet cut the wrong part of their body. Are they lucky to be alive?

So, I am more careful about war. I is not an adventure, it is a tragedy.
As I said, I still think some have to be fought, but as written in Louis the Fourteen cannons, Ultimo Ratio, the last resource of the king.

Have to go to work, not sure I will continue, but perhaps...

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Which reminds me of Dans la Tête.

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That is brilliant :2thumbsup:

Wonderful and moving post, Brenus. :bow:

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Originally Posted by Brenus

Have to go to work, not sure I will continue, but perhaps...

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You always say that, so I know that you will continue. Here or in another thread. It's what you always do. After a thousand posts, your ramblings here have turned into a veritable œuvre. A book.

You need to retire to your beloved Serbia. Get yourself that quiet house on a hillside, overlooking the Dinarides, have a wine at sunset, ponder the beauty of the land and the unhappiness of its history - the melancholic combination of which have a psychological link to you yourself in a way that I haven't yet figured out - and write it all down.

:2thumbsup:


Or wait for me to copy-past your posts into a book and get myself famous at your expense... :sneaky:

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

It's a sad statement on humanity that we have a need for men to do such, but I am damn glad we have them.

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Sad? I rather think of it as a brilliant concession of human nature to admit, and to fulfill the need to have men like this. To suggest otherwise would be, in human or at the very least an admission of apathy toward the nature of men.

Of course Special Forces like army rangers, I couldnt agree more. :laugh4:

“You need to retire to your beloved Serbia. Get yourself that quiet house on a hillside, overlooking the Dinarides, have a wine at sunset, ponder the beauty of the land and the unhappiness of its history - the melancholic combination of which have a psychological link to you yourself in a way that I haven't yet figured out - and write it all down.”

Well, that is the plan. Buying a house near Novi Sad (Sarmatian’s town), enjoying the view on the Danube banks, (even with what did they do to the Strend? Sarmatian…!!!!!) dinking beers or/and white wine with my kum.

I did write the book. Never got published, I wrote the Serbian side and the Serbs were the bad guys. And nowadays, nobody in interested on what happened there. Especially the one who lied and lied and lied again…

I like Serbia for the Serbs. They like food, to talk politic, they have beautiful women and are proud. Err, they are French, somehow, the French of 50 years ago.
They welcome others (even I you are Croats/Turk/Bosnian etc).
Landscapes are not great. Nice pieces time to time but when you went in the Alps, Massif Central, Ardèche or other gorges du Verdon, well, you know what I mean…
No. I link with the Serbs because they are me, as you my dear French. Drink, food, women and politic…:2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Brenus

I did write the book. Never got published

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I just knew you had the urge to tell it all and write it all down. As another guess, I bet your book reads as a dissertation. Solid, factual, to the point and unreadable.

Be like me - always give centre stage to your inner idiot when writing something! Unlike with forum posts, where a press of the 'enter' key means one's blathering nonsense is unleashed to the world, there for all to read and for you to bitterly regret two days later, a book gives one the opportunity to polish and normalise the excesses of your writings when sanity resumes.
When writing something, never hold back. Let the stream of thought do its work, and polish it up upon re-reading.

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Well, that is the plan. Buying a house near Novi Sad (Sarmatian’s town), enjoying the view on the Danube banks, (even with what did they do to the Strend? Sarmatian…!!!!!) dinking beers or/and white wine with my kum.

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Well I hope some beers or white wine will help you and Sarmatian to 'kum' together one day.
[/Beavis and Butthead]

See? Even if I didn't quite nail it (unlike you and Sarmatian :sneaky:) just writing the first thing that popped to mind presented me with the opportunity of a joke, that, after careful polishing, should resemble a - pityful, doomed, but nevertheless present - attempt at humour.

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I wrote the Serbian side and the Serbs were the bad guys. And nowadays, nobody in interested on what happened there. Especially the one who lied and lied and lied again…

I like Serbia for the Serbs. They like food, to talk politic, they have beautiful women and are proud. Err, they are French, somehow, the French of 50 years ago.

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I know exactly what you mean and couldn't agree more. Even if I had never thought about it this way. Always the sign of a great argument. Like a gift that you've always wanted but never knew existed until you were given it.

Me, I am going to retire in Savannah, Georgia. Write a book that will make Tocqueville obsolete. Unlike Serbia, America is not the France of fifty years ago. It has instead forever been the future of France in fifty or fifteen years time. A dystopia and a promise. Should be good. Like all French works about foreign countries, it is, in the end, not about them, but about France. And what's written about France is, in the end, never about France but about the author. Aaah...the gift of being a total, utter, pigheadedly self-obsessed pompous twit. :2thumbsup: