OOC Thread

Announcing an exciting and radically new WotS-style PBEM!

The purpose of V&V is to revive the basic concept found in the KotR test game, but taken a step further and hopefully more successful! Like the KotR test this is not intended to be a full-fledged game, all though it could last much longer than previous test games if people are having fun.

V&V will be very different from other games of it's type. Each player will control an avatar who, although part of a Kingdom/Empire, has a personal demesne which he controls like his own mini-faction. You'll have your own personal income, your own armies, navies and agents which you pay from your own treasury, and you're free to work in conjunction with your fellow countrymen or treat your vassalage like a mere formality. They'll be no Chancellor, since nothing belongs to the Kingdom as a whole. I'll be advancing the turns myself at regular intervals. Also, we'll be using Lands to Conqueror Gold, which requires the Kingdoms Expansion pack.

I've got the rules written down, but I'm going to sleep on it and reread them tomorrow to make sure I've got everything, as well as get them better organized on paper. I'm looking for two to four people to join me in testing these rules, any more than that will have to wait until generals become available ingame.

Anyways, feel free to ask any questions if you're interested! I'll give a more detailed explanation tomorrow, but I'll be happy to answer any questions in the meantime!

I'm in! Looks very interesting and I'm curious to see how you intend to make it work. :beam:

Looks like I'm going to have to buy Kingdoms at last, eh?

Is LTC Gold compatible with the Steam version of Kingdoms anyone?

:egypt:

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Originally Posted by Ramses II CP

Looks like I'm going to have to buy Kingdoms at last, eh?

Is LTC Gold compatible with the Steam version of Kingdoms anyone?

:egypt:

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Evidently you can, as the LTC installation instructions say "If you have Steam you will need to use the Medieval II Launcher to run the mod."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheFlax

I'm in! Looks very interesting and I'm curious to see how you intend to make it work. :beam:

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The key is the add_money console command. Aside from giving each player a 'King's Purse' all the income and expenses will be what they are in the game, so as long as I know what they *should* be at the start of each turn I can make it so, without having to worry about the inscrutable methods that Medieval II uses.

Good, so if I don't get a chance to pick up a copy at a retail joint I can always just use steam. Count me in then. :2thumbsup:

:egypt:

Hmmm...count me in for the test. :beam:

Count me in as well :2thumbsup:

Excellent, we've got five people! This is the most number of people we can accomodate at the beginning, so we're going to be playing as the Kingdom of France in the early era campaign. You all can go and reserve one of the starting generals now, with the exception that I've reserved King Philip Capet for myself.

As a matter of fact, (sorry for the double post, but I want people to know there's new information without viewing the thread) I'm going to post the save we'll be starting with.

Vassals&Valor-1080

Even though I haven't posted the rules yet, once you reserve an avatar you can use this save to look at the starting situation and determine you how you want to spend your money et. cetera.

The avatar you chose will start with the settlement he is in and all the soldiers in his stack. So remember that the amount of money you gain at the start of the next turn will be equal to the income of your city minus the upkeep of your troops, plus 250 bonus florins. (750 if you're the prince). You all start with 1000 florins in your treasury, except for the first person to reserve the Prince. He gets 2000.

Can I reserve the Prince then? :beam:

Quick question - is it safe to install Kingdoms, the 1.5 patch, and play LotR?

I think so, before I had to reformat my comp a bit ago I was playing LotR with 1.5. with no adverse effects.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by YLC

Quick question - is it safe to install Kingdoms, the 1.5 patch, and play LotR?

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I'm running LotR and Kingdoms from the same install, so yeah. Don't remember what order I installed them in though, or if that even matters.

I'll take Guillemot de Lyon.

And so I would get Dijon, right?

I'll take Prince Louis. :yes:

I'll take whomever is left over after everyone else picks. Going to pick up Kingdoms tomorrow and install it. :sweatdrop:

:egypt:

All right, here are the rules. Up until the first time we pause to discuss the rules, whenever there is a question about the rules, I will simple clarify it myself and adjust the wording of the rules unilaterally. After the first time we discuss how the rules are working, any subsequent queries or disputes about the rules will be solved immidiately by myself. The issue will then be raised again and put to vote during the next rules disscussion automatically if there are opossing ideas.

The game is now officially begun. Since this is the first turn, and everybody may need some time to get used to the rules, the current turn will end at 0:00 GMT on Friday, Jan. 30th. I will also consider extending the turn if anybody's having trouble, but only for the first five turns.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Vassals & Valor

I. Introduction and Purpose

1. Vassals & Valor is test PBEM, aimed at taking WotS-style PBEMs in a new direction. It's purpose is to test and develop mechanics for players owning property and having their own personal finances. In order to facilitate this, many concepts have been removed for simplicity.
2. This game will be played on Lands to Conqueror Gold, Hard Campaign, Very Hard Battles, Manage All Settlements, Show CPU Moves, Battle Timer On.
3. Each ship can only carry two units of soldiers.
4. Each player will role-play a general of the chosen faction. This game will not be modded, so until we have a level-3 stables there will be no RGBs. Adoptions and MoHs will be decided by the benefactor. Princess will marry a groom chosen by their father. If a new player wants a general, he will have to wait until one is available. Once it becomes possible to train RGBs, a new player can chose to have one recruited for him at no cost to any player. A new player is always free to chose whether or not he wants a general that’s available to him.
5. There will be an OOC Thread, a thread for rule and the taking and uploading of saves, and IC ‘Faction Leader’s Council’, a Battles & Stories thread, and an SOT thread.

II. Settlements and Income

1. Each player’s avatar may own one or more settlements, which are considered their property.
2. When a settlement is conquered, the General in charge of the Army that took it has the right to name it’s Lord. The General in charge of the Army also gains all income from seizing settlements, and can choose the settlement’s fate.
3. The General in charge of the Army pays for and receives money from ransoming. He determines the fate of enemy soldiers captured in battle, as well as whether or not to pay for troops that are captured from the army under his command.
4. Each player receives the income from their settlements into their own personal treasury, as well as any money gained from destroying buildings in those settlements.
5. Each player must pay for the upkeep of troops and ships under their control from their own personal treasury.
6. Each player gains a bonus income each turn by virtue of their position. For the Faction Leader, this is the in-game king’s purse. For the Faction Heir, it is one-half the in-game King’s Purse. For all other players it is 250 florins.
7. No player has to pay for the income of his personal bodyguard.
8. When missions are given to the faction, the player who owns the army/navy/agent that completed the mission gets the reward.
9. The player’s money for the upcoming turn shall be determined by the following formula: (Money at start of current turn) – (upkeep and spending for current turn) + (income from assets for a current turn) = Money at start of next turn
10. To reiterate, the income and upkeep a player has at any given turn is added/removed at the beginning of the next turn.
11. The settlements under a players control are referred to as their ‘demesne’. A player must designate one of the settlements in their ‘demesne’ as their capital. This is where their treasury is stored, and it *can* be taken in PVP or lost to the AI factions!
12. The tax rates of all settlements must be set to ‘normal’ at all times, except when an avatar is present in the settlement at the end of a turn.
13. Any lord has the privilege of setting a ‘scutage’, or a tax on his vassals as payment in exchange for his protection. This can be defined as a flat rate or a percentage of their income, it can be the same for every vassal or different for each one of them, or any other term that the Faction Leader can come up with.
14. Any player can gift a settlement to new player in exchange for the new player swearing fealty to his benefactor.
15. An oath of fealty is two-way contact between lord and vassal. The Lord is expected to offer protection to his vassal and recognize that the settlement(s) is his vassal’s property. The vassal in turn is expected to fight for his lord upon request, as well as pay whatever scutage his lord requires of him.
16. At the start of the game, the King is a lord and all other players are his vassals. Over time the King can create more vassals by granting tracks of land and his own vassals can create their own vassals the same way.
17. Vassals in service to the King are known as Dukes. Vassals not in service to the King are Counts.

III. How the game is run.

1. There is no Chancellor in Vassals & Valor, since there is nothing that belongs to the “Kingdom” as a whole; everything belongs to one of the players.
2. Each turn lasts 48-72 hours. I will post the time at which each turn ends. Regardless of when I take the save to advance the turn, I will take the last save to be uploaded before the deadline.
3. During a turn players may take the save to move their soldiers and spend their money. When a player spends money immediately, such as when building watchtowers, forts and recruiting mercenaries, he must list the transaction and how much it cost when he returns the save.
4. There is no Senate/Diet/Magnuara in Vassals & Valor. However, ever fifth turn we will discuss the rules and how they are working. When the fifth turn’s 48-hours are up, I will post a poll asking players whether further play is needed to determine the validity of the rule system or whether we should stop playing and do an AAR.
5. Players can barter with each other with every resource that they have. Any agreements that have long-lasting terms, such as troops on loan for a limited time or payment stretched over a given timeframe, must be posted in the SOT thread by both parties.
6. If a player is going to to be away IRL for a period of time, his avatar can appoint another avatar as a steward to watch over his demesne. Although presumably necessitated by OOC reasons, this is an IC position. The Lord who is going away must specify in his SOT thread which powers the Steward has access to, such as whether how much access to the treasury the Steward has, whether the Steward can use the soldiers of the away lord, whether the Steward can alter the build queues, etc.
7. Whenever it is mentioned in these rules that a player has the right to gain something, make a decision, or receive a benefit or reward he can choose give portions of his rewards or share his decision-making. Similarly, whenever a player is required to pay for something he can always share this payment with other players, presuming he can find someone to agree to it. Any standing agreements must be noted in all parties SOT thread.

IV. Military Forces/Agents

1. Every stack in the game is owned by one of the players.
2. Battles can only be fought by a player whose avatar is part of the battle. If there are no avatars present, the battle will be autoresolved unless the owner of the stack previously issued an order to retreat upon contact.
3. The General in charge of the Army is determined by unanimous vote of the players present in the army. If unanimity cannot be reached, the General in charge of the Army is whichever player the game places in charge
4. Whenever multiple stacks with multiple owners are merged in order to fight a battle, the ownership of each unit will be written down and posted so as to keep track.
5. Players can loan, gift, sell, or agree to raise regiments to/for other players.
6. With the exception of diplomats, each player can recruit their own agents for their own use. In the case of merchants and priests, which can only be recruited in limited numbers, each player cannot recruit more than his fair share. However, it is possible for player to trade/gift their fair shares to other players.
7. Diplomats can only be recruited by the Faction Leader.

A questions and a clarification:

Rule II-4 states: "Each player receives the income from their settlements into their own personal treasury, as well as any money gained from destroying buildings in those settlements."

Is our starting amount of money 0 or something else? (I assume the income is received at the end of turn)


Also,

Rule II-12 states: "The tax rates of all settlements must be set to ‘normal’ at all times, except when an avatar is present in the settlement at the end of a turn."

Those this mean that if your avatar leaves a town, the taxes revert back to normal? Just want to make sure I'm understanding this one correctly.

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Originally Posted by TheFlax

A questions and a clarification:

Rule II-4 states: "Each player receives the income from their settlements into their own personal treasury, as well as any money gained from destroying buildings in those settlements."

Is our starting amount of money 0 or something else? (I assume the income is received at the end of turn)


Also,

Rule II-12 states: "The tax rates of all settlements must be set to ‘normal’ at all times, except when an avatar is present in the settlement at the end of a turn."

Those this mean that if your avatar leaves a town, the taxes revert back to normal? Just want to make sure I'm understanding this one correctly.

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Originally Posted by Cecil XIX

You all start with 1000 florins in your treasury, except for the first person to reserve the Prince. He gets 2000.

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This is correct. I know that's a bit of a change, but it should work out nicely. (And if it doesn't, well that's why we're doing this.)

The primary reasoning behind that rule is to answer the question "Why would anybody want to vassalize someone if it means giving up a province?" This way there's an incentive to gift a province to a vassal so he can manage it in your stead, ultimately providing you with more income for the loss of some control.

It also offers different ways to roleplay threats. Will you stay inside your city for that extra income until the enemy is at the gates, letting others do the fighting for you? Or will you ride at whenever bandits threaten the land, for the good of the people and at great cost to yourself? And say you own a castle and a town. In times of danger you'll be tempted to relocate your person to your castle, but doing so will cost you extra income, so what will you do?

Now that you mention it though, I think at one point I was considering a variation of that rule where you could only *lower* taxes if a settlement didn't have a govenor, and in order to raise them back up you'd have to enter the city. Would that be more agreeable to everyone?

One of the things about these rules that I think could really work is that being chivalrous or dreadful would mean a lot more, since either path means less money for yourself.

Will an IC thread be put up soon? I feel we must discuss the vile presence of the English in our lands. :clown:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cecil XIX

You all start with 1000 florins in your treasury, except for the first person to reserve the Prince. He gets 2000.

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Gah! I totally forgot about that previous post. :shame:

As for the taxes, I'm all for trying it like that. It makes for interesting choices and if it doesn't work, we can always change it as you said.

I'll definitely consider joining the main game.

Taking the save.

Well now, I've finally got the other four thread up! From now on this will be the OOC thread. For convenience, the other threads are linked below.

The King's Council
Battle Reports and Stories
Rules, Saves and Turn-By-Turn Reports
The SOT Thread

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zim

Figured out my finances for the next turn. :2thumbsup:

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Excellent! Did your numbers also have you starting next turn with 1161 florins?

I had a much lower number, actually, because I'd forgotten my share of the King's purse. :clown:

Including that I also come up with 1161. :yes:

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Originally Posted by Cecil XIX

Excellent! Did your numbers also have you starting next turn with 1161 florins?

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Having some installation issues to work out. Not everything wants to play nice together. :juggle2:

I expect I'll be up and running tomorrow.

:egypt:

I am watching this test game with immense interest. This is the first truly new game idea I've seen in the Throne Room in a long time, and I hope it's very successful. I have a few questions to satisfy my own curiosity, if you don't mind.

1) Who is going to keep track of all the financial information? Is Cecil going to do it for everyone?
2) If no one is paying bodyguard upkeep or wages, where is that money coming from?
3) Following on from #2, are the financial figures going to be balanced with all of the actual in-game numbers, or will it be simplified in some manner?

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Originally Posted by TinCow

1) Who is going to keep track of all the financial information? Is Cecil going to do it for everyone?
2) If no one is paying bodyguard upkeep or wages, where is that money coming from?
3) Following on from #2, are the financial figures going to be balanced with all of the actual in-game numbers, or will it be simplified in some manner?

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1) I will be keeping track of all financial information, but players are encouraged to do it themselves as well. That way mistakes are more likely to be caught.
2) This game requires use of the add_money command at the start of every turn.
3) Every effort will be made to adhere to the ingame ledger, aside from free General's Bodyguards and each player receiving bonus income. As you know, the ledger does accurately describe how much money is gained/lost each turn; it is frequently wrong. But using the add_money command I keep the same mechanics for money generation in the game, but I ensure that they also come out the way I want.

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Originally Posted by TheFlax

Here is my accounting: (Correct me if I made any mistakes)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

1000 (Starting Sum)
+600 (Donation from the King)
-1600 (Town Watch in Dijon)
0

Florins gained next turn:

856 (Taxes)
+250 (King's Purse)
-510 (Troop upkeep)
596

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Actually, as stated in Rule II.10,

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To reiterate, the income and upkeep a player has at any given turn is added/removed at the beginning of the next turn.

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So the money the King gave Guillemot does not reach him until next turn. Is the rule not clearly worded enough? A player's treasury will only change during the course of a turn if they receive money from completing a mission or taking a settlement. All other changes only come into effect at the beginning of the turn.

So since you can't afford to build a Town Watch you've spent no money, and will start next turn with 2196 florins.

Ok, I missed that. I'll go and correct it right now.

Just to update my issues, Kingdoms is installed fine. I think it's fully patched. LTC gold is installed, and I can play games in it. I cannot load the saves for this game. They do the load bar and then just drop back to the menu screen.

I've done one full reinstall already, which is a really annoying process due to the amount of stuff added onto MTWII. I'd like to avoid having to do another one. Are there any more patches or addons I need to throw into this mix to make things work?

:egypt:

Do you have patch 1.5 for Kingdoms? That created some problems for a hotseat a friend and I were playing. Just be wary of the link in the Citadel. It leads to a version that doesn't work for people who bought the American non Gold versions. Better to get the patch from Totalwar.com.

Hmm, not sure what to say. Where did you download LTC from? Do the loading screens show up? I'd recommend going to twcenter.net's LTC Forum and asking for help.

Since it looks like this could take a while, I'm going to go ahead and move the game forward now. If Ramses hasn't fixed things by the time the next turn is over I'll extend it.

EDIT: Wait, scratch that. Ramses, you can still start campaigns, right? If you start up a campaign in the early era as the French I'll let you choose a character, as well as decide if you want to do some recruiting/constructing, for this turn. You have 1000 florins to spend.

Okay, I'll do that tonight and work on fixing the problem afterward. Will get back to you.

:egypt:

I'll take Perrin Gassou. I still have no idea why I can't load the save, but presuming no one else has yet I'd like to lay siege to Caen with Perrin, his two archers, and one company of spearmen. Mind doing that for me Cecil? For the time being no recruitment, per the King's request.

:egypt:

Oh, and for siege equipment, three ladders and start a ram.

:egypt:

It shall be done. I'll take the save tomorrow.

I sorted it out, up and running now. It was just an install order issue.

I'll upload a save with Caen under siege shortly.

:egypt:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/uyzwze...lor-1080-4.zip

:egypt:

Sorry for being so slow, life keeps getting in the way. I guess I'll take that guy no one wants, Raoulet Poitevin

:clown:

Reading the Reports thread, it seems like this is proceeding relatively smoothly. I've got a few more questions now:

1) Cecil XIX: How long does it take you to do the start-of-turn financial summaries? Do you feel like this is a job you'd be willing to do for the entire game?
2) Everyone else: How much of a burden has it been to do math when doing all purchases and recruitments?
3) General: Is PvP going to be included in the final version of the game? If so, what form will it take?

Since the math is simply additions and subtractions, it takes me about 5 minutes to calculate everything. I'd say the longest is to make sure you haven't missed any units and make sure everything is ok. In my opinion, its a small price to pay to have more control over your domain. It really feels like being the governor of a semi-autonomous province.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TinCow

Reading the Reports thread, it seems like this is proceeding relatively smoothly. I've got a few more questions now:

1) Cecil XIX: How long does it take you to do the start-of-turn financial summaries? Do you feel like this is a job you'd be willing to do for the entire game?
3) General: Is PvP going to be included in the final version of the game? If so, what form will it take?

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1) For the first part, it depends on whether or not people take their saves. In the first turn saves were taken gradually over the course of the turn, and after each save I could calculate an individual's numbers. By the time the turn was over, there wasn't much left to to do. For this last turn, the opposite is true. Right now I feel confident that I can indeed continue to do this for the duration of the game.

3)Strickly speaking, there's nothing to prevent PVP from happening right now. In order to formalize the rules, I'd simply add a statement along the lines of "If you want to attack somebody's holdings, move your forces adjacent to theirs and publically state your intent." I rather like the idea of allowing surprise attacks, as it promotes territoriality and suspicion.

Since this is the fifth turn, it will be extended so that we can discuss how the game is going so far.

So, what do you guys think? How are you liking the rules? Any additions, changes, or subtractions you'd like to propose?

Only a few -

Financial calculations could be made clearer. At first, I was confused for which turn I was doing my calculations. However, this is only wording, not something wrong with the financial system.

Control of Units in battle being led by another player - as is shown, You kind of abused my men and I gained nothing for it. Had I been in the battle, I would have ignored your men and fought it out myself, with only just my men, and would have suffered fewer casualties. We need to be able to select whether or not we wish to have our men participate in battle. Otherwise we can have some disgruntled players being abused by someone with more command.

To solve the above, make it that separate players must maintain separate stacks, so that they cannot merge. If a battle occurs, the player not playing also needs more say - does he wish to act as reserve (as I would have wanted), or does he wish to take to the front? A combination? This will keep players happy I think.

Finally, I'd love to be able to have multiple avatars to control. This may be unreasonable however, so we could limit ourselves - maybe to an Adjutant?

So far it seems to work fine with me. We won't really see a test of the rules until we develop a PvP situation IMHO.

:egypt:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Quote:

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Originally Posted by YLC

Only a few -

Financial calculations could be made clearer. At first, I was confused for which turn I was doing my calculations. However, this is only wording, not something wrong with the financial system.

Control of Units in battle being led by another player - as is shown, You kind of abused my men and I gained nothing for it. Had I been in the battle, I would have ignored your men and fought it out myself, with only just my men, and would have suffered fewer casualties. We need to be able to select whether or not we wish to have our men participate in battle. Otherwise we can have some disgruntled players being abused by someone with more command.

To solve the above, make it that separate players must maintain separate stacks, so that they cannot merge. If a battle occurs, the player not playing also needs more say - does he wish to act as reserve (as I would have wanted), or does he wish to take to the front? A combination? This will keep players happy I think.

Finally, I'd love to be able to have multiple avatars to control. This may be unreasonable however, so we could limit ourselves - maybe to an Adjutant?

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1. Fair enough, now that I've actually been doing it I think I can state it more clearly. What if I were to change rules 1.9 and 1.10 like so?

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1.9 The formula for calculating income each turn is this:

(Money Carried Over From Last Turn)+(Personal Income)+(Settlements)+(Merchant Trade)-(Agent's Wages)-(Army Upkeep)-(Construction)-(Recruitment)+(Diplomacy)+(Sacking/Ransoming)=(Money At Start Of Current Turn)


1.10 - Personal income, Settlement income, Merchant Trade, Agent's Wages, and Army Upkeep are determined as they are immediately before the 'End Turn' button is pressed. Money for construction, recruitment, diplomacy, sacking, ransoming and missions are added/subtracted at the moment the change occurs. You cannot spend more on those things than what you have in your treasury. There is one exception this, in that you can go in to debt to pay the ransom of your faction's soldiers.

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2. As an aside, it was the King's men who took the walls and Raoulet's men helped take the square from the enemy cavalry. I must confess I made a mistake here, as I placed to much importance on the 'Spear' and not enough on the 'Militia' I had the Spearmen engage the cavalry first and then the bodyguards when it should have been the other way around.

You bring up a good point, but I think it's an IC point rather than an OOC point. That kind of conflict is hopefully what makes this game interesting - don't lend your soldiers to someone you don't trust.

And as for not getting anything back - Well, letting the King use your soldiers for his own purposes is part of the feudal system. What you get in return is the knowledge that if you're in trouble the King will (should) marshall everything at his disposal in order to protect you.

This concept is essential to this PBEM; in KotR and LotR it was basically assumed at vassals were serfs and were obligated to do whatever their Lords. But in reality Lords had obligations to their vassals as well as vice-versa, and either party could conceivably find itself in a situation where it could claim the other had violated the contract through inaction, rendering said the feudal contract null and void.

Your alternative proposal is interesting, but I don't think it's enforcable. If a player wanted to ignore advice he could simply not tell anyone how the battle was fought. We can't change that. The current system leads you to judge me by results, which can't be faked.

Finally, I want to make it clear, in case it wasn't, that PVP is allowed in this game. It's basically the same as in LotR, except that you can attack anybody at anytime without restriction. Be suspicious!

Zim performed an illegal move by moving and disbanding the soldiers of the King who were stationed in Toulouse.

The illegality of this may not have been sufficiently clear in the rules. Therefore, I am proposing that rule IV.6 be amended as follows.

Quote:

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Whereas rule IV.6 originally read, in it's entirety,

"Players can move units under their control anywhere they wish. This means they can start wars with other factions, and players."

It shall now read:

"Players can move units under their control anywhere they wish. This means they can start wars with other factions, and players. No one can move a players soldiers except that player, unless that player makes an illegal move."

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In any case, since this is the first time this kind of situation has ocurred, I've corrected the mistake while still moving Zim's units in the same manner.

I had soldiers belonging to who in Toulouse?

I assumed anything in one of my settlements had to be mine. :clown:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zim

I had soldiers belonging to who in Toulouse?

I assumed anything in one of my settlements had to be mine. :clown:

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Indeed, that would have been the correct response in every other PBeM so I don't blame you. Does my rules clarifcation help?

Basically, if you suddently notice some soldiers in your settlement that you didn't recruit, than instead of saying "Hey, I've got some extra soldiers I can move." you should think "Hey, who put these here?"

I'm thinking of adding rules allowing players to bar other player's units from entering their settlements, as well as throwing someone else's units out. How does that sound to anyone?

My thought was more "Hmm, troops in Toulouse, guess I had recruited them".

I would certainly approve of a rule that required permission before troops could be moved into someone else's settlement. At the very least some kind of notification. Otherwise keeping track of what troops in your settlements are yours and aren't could be very confusing if the faction grows much.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cecil XIX

Indeed, that would have been the correct response in every other PBeM so I don't blame you. Does my rules clarifcation help?

Basically, if you suddently notice some soldiers in your settlement that you didn't recruit, than instead of saying "Hey, I've got some extra soldiers I can move." you should think "Hey, who put these here?"

I'm thinking of adding rules allowing players to bar other player's units from entering their settlements, as well as throwing someone else's units out. How does that sound to anyone?

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Nothing to see here... *whistles*

I am having some time issues. Because of the extra time needed to count up unit upkeep (especially after battles where every unit's upkeep may change) and settlement income (which does change every turn, a little) I find the turns taking rather longer than in most games I'm in. I also find myself forgetting the exact makeup of my armies after playing turns in multiple other games, which was part of the reason I didn't notice new troops had appeared in my castle.

I may be a bit absent in the near future, although things might clear up a bit when I'm no longer Megas in LotR. If it would be better for a more active player to take the Prince I'd understand.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ramses II CP

New save:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/bncm5z...Valor-1093.zip

One issue, I had sent some of my sergeant spearmen from Dijon east towards the crossing to England and they've been merged with the King's stack. These were the men from the very start of the game so they're definitely 'mine' but I actually don't have any idea if they can be taken like that or not. If they're still mine to control I'd like to move them out of the King's stack and as far in the direction of Caernarvon as possible. They're the unit at the end of his stack, with movement remaining.

In the current save I left them where they were since I don't know exactly how the rules handle captain stacks.

:egypt:

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My apologies, what I did was very much against the rules. Since this is the second time confusion over this issue has arisen, and it's with a different person, I have edited Rule IV.6 in the hopes of improving clarity. That rule now reads:

Quote:

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Players can move units under their control anywhere they wish. This means they can start wars with other factions, and players. No one can move a players soldiers except that player, and a player can move his soldiers under any circumstances provided the move is legal.

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Fortunately what I did will not delay that unit of Sergeant Spearmen from reaching Ramses II CP, he is perfectly free to move it along out of the King's Stack, otherwise I will send it on it's way before the end of the turn.

I see now that keeping track of your soldiers is as important as keeping track of your income. I would advise everyone to do both of these things, in order to prevent yourself from accidentally taking people's unts or having them taken.

At this point, things seem to be running smoothly enough that I can safely say the basic mechanics are sound. Does anybody agree/disagree?

In any case, there are a few points that need clarification.

1. Rules - I'm worried that the way I've organized and written my rules isn't as clear and concise as in LotR. Do any of you think they need to be changed.

2. PVP - Ramses said that this test should also test the PVP, something I agree with. If we all agree that the rules have been found to be sound, then I think we should end this test with a Civil War event, as is custom. :laugh4:

3. Next step - If the test is successful, then the question is what to do next? Although I chose France as the faction for the test, I must say I'd like to see it used in the main game as well. France was, at the start of this time period, supposed to be an example of Feudalism in it's most raw and delicate form. I think my rules fit there pretty well. I definitely want to play a faction that whose structure is essentially Fuedalism.

The problem is there aren't many factions like that bigger or as big than France. So either we start as England, the HRE (again), or we go to a smaller faction with a bit of a wait until we can get RGBs.

Granted, there are effectively only three players anyway. So we could start the main game as Poland or Hungary, recruit new people as new generals become available and once we get RGBs start a general recruitment thread.

The final option is to let the Civil War, if we do one, to mark the transition from the Test Game to the main game.

Any thoughts?

Bump.

I need your opinions guys, so I can judge where to take this next.

Sorry about that, meant to write something but I kept pushing it back. :embarassed:

Rulewise I haven't seen many problems, except maybe a little confusion about unit ownership. I doubt the rules can help much in that department, players simply have to be vigilant. A part from that, I found that everything ran pretty smoothly.

As for a Civil War, well I'll admit I'm not a big fan of PvP myself, especially when there are no real stakes. Since this is a test game I care little about my character and since the PvP will be like KotR/LotR (right?), I wouldn't think it needs much testing. Then again, if you and Ramses want to duke it out, I have no problem with that.

For a main game, I'm not too keen on France, the starting avatars having already too much history for me (from two test games). Anywhere else though would be fine by me, Poland and Hungary sound like great choices to me. As you said we are three for now and other people can join easily enough as we expand.

Finally, as I haven't invested myself much in my character, I'd much rather start a new game. I usually approach the test games from purely a rule testing standpoint and not a story standpoint. In a new game I promise to be much more involved. :2thumbsup:

With limited involvement and slim character development a civil war scenario would really only be a single PvP battle at this point. I think we know how that would come out, but I'm totally up for trying it.

As far as the faction for the actual game, France would work fine for me, but I think Poland would be fun as well. More of a rough and tumble background and potentially a more difficult path to expansion. France has lots of room to grow, like the Byz in LotR, and so it may be awhile before real conflict begins within the player base.

:egypt:

I'd also vote for Poland, on the basis that it is essentially one theater, not several which are separated by large expanses of water and vast movement killing mountains.

Hungary is another great choice :yes:

england! or maybe the teutons or the templars? :D

anyway, this looks interesting. When the main game lifts up, i'll read up on the rules (and probably join :D)

All right, I think now is the time to stop the test game. I'll get the main game ready, and post it tomorrow.

All right, I've decided that the we're going to play as the Kingdom of Hungary in an Early Era Campaign. There are three avatars: King Laszlo, Prince Kalman, and a general named Istvan. The King will start with the settlements of Budapest and Zagreb, the Prince with Bran, and Istvan will have Ragusa.

I'll be playing as Istvan. I'm giving Ramses II CP first pick of the other two, because he hasn't played a FL yet. Since this is just a regular campaign in LTC, you both can just start a campaign to get a sense of things. Once Ramses makes his pick I'll post the first save and we can start the first turn.

I've been thinking about this and actually I don't want to take the King. I'll take the Prince if that's okay.

Sorry for the delay, I wanted to sort out how much time I could expect to have.

:egypt:

I guess I'll be the king then, woe betide you all. :clown:

Sorry for the delay guys, had some ill-timed computer problems.

Here's the save for the main game.

Some notes:

1. The King starts with 6000 florins, the Prince with 4000 florins, and the General with 1000.

2. We're going to be using the same threads for the main game, with one exception. I'm going to creat a new 'King's Council' Thread.

3. I also plan to make a Library thread and a History thread. I'll take care of that stuff tomorrow.

4. The save is now open, it will end no sooner than 24:00 GMT on Wednesday the 25th.

Taking the save.

V&V-1081[H]

The Kingdom of Hungary now has the largest treasury in the known world.

This save will end no sooner than 24:00 on Saturday the 28th.

https://img165.imageshack.us/img165/1316/vv1081.jpg

:shame:

I somehow did not notice the game had started! While it is clear the deadline is today... Sorry about that Cecil, I'll get to this turn ASAP.

V&V-1081(H)-1

King Laszlo has ordered the converting of Zagreb to a Motte and Bailey (-800) and the beginning of Land Clearing near Budapest (-1000).

His daughter, Pioska, has secured Trade Rights with the Polish.

As soon as the King's Council is open, King Laszlo will have an announcement to make.

Taking the save.

:egypt:

Save is back:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/zj2notgmhyt/V&V-1081[H]-2.zip

Hired all the mercenaries in the area (-1940), started a stables at Bran (-2000), trained a units of Magyars (-450) and tried to retrain some of the slav levies after the capture of Bucharest (-19 maybe, no slots to retrain so it might not work). Total spent: 4409.

:egypt:

I forgot to move taxes at Bucharest to 'low,' if you don't mind doing that when you take the save Cecil.

:egypt:

Excellent, we have our new King. I'll upload the save in a few hours, and the turn will begin.

Before I finish compiling the data, I need to know whether the King intends the cavalry he sends to Bran to be permanently transferred to the service of the Prince. In the future, this must be explicitly stated in any such transaction.

I would like to include a statement to this effect in the rules. Do either of you agree?

This is what was intended for my part. It was simply done so that those HA were at my disposal earlier.

Turn will be a little delayed, due to AI negotiations. In the meantime, let me treat you guys to the result of the siege of Sofia.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://img516.imageshack.us/img516/...4161830247.png

Captain Tamas may be the most competant AI 'character' I've ever seen.

Fortunately Boris of Szolsa has been adopted by the King. I'm not going to take him, since I really want to see someone else take him. He's the first charcter who hasn't started with land, so I wanna see how that plays out.