Not much talk about one of my most favorite new features: Cover!

The cover system is so awesome and really different from anything in previous total wars,

I've been having a blast on a lot of defensive battles, setting up extremely tight defensive zones based around stone walls. It's really effective but challenging, since you need to seriously guard the flanks of the guys in cover.

This one was lots of fun as Russia against the Crimean Khanate:

http://screenshot.xfire.com/screensh...95583c12a6.jpg http://screenshot.xfire.com/screensh...a79540312d.jpg

I like it, but not being able (AFAIK) to stretch out a unit along cover is annoying.

Those massive infantry earthwork things you can build are great too, but only (I think) if you're defending.

cover is cool as is the defences u can build, the problem is that the ai reacts so poorly to it, ive seen my housemate slaughter armies which just stand there and do nothing cept die.

EDIT : i think they just need to adjust the AI's priorities

no 1. should be flank them
no 2. if they cant be flanked or a flanking attack is beaten off, try and draw them out, longer range infantry or even cannons or some form of horse gunner skirmishing (of course this depends on army makeup)
3. melee - no point having a shooting battle with someone sitting behind a wall. u will lose every time.


basically the ai just seems to get confused about which course of action to take when faced with units using cover.

I've noticed that one more than one occasion I've been behind a stone wall and only 1 troop in the unit will actually be firing. Other than the 1 the unit just sits there ducked behind the stone wall not firing. I haven't quite figured exactly why it behaves that way as of now.

Yeah, flank or get into melee asap if flanking is not an option.

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Originally Posted by Ardri

I've noticed that one more than one occasion I've been behind a stone wall and only 1 troop in the unit will actually be firing. Other than the 1 the unit just sits there ducked behind the stone wall not firing. I haven't quite figured exactly why it behaves that way as of now.

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Have you researched advanced shooting drills?

If not, then even if they are standing up, only the front rank will fire.

Yeah I have fire by rank researched, but on stone walls not even my front row has been shooting. I've had to pull my troops out from behind the stone wall on more than one occasion because they simply were not firing. I'll look at it some more today to see if maybe I'm going up against troops with greater range. Maybe I have been on the downhill slope and the computer troops firing down at me have a greater range and I just can't reach them.

I'm very early into things but when I did some fighting in RTI I had big units inside native-constructed buildings and it seemed as though they did nothing at all in spite of there being apparent windows to shoot out of. I thought I was setting up an impressive strongpoint whereas I was apparently just taking one of my units out of action.

I think I've noticed that behind cover units fire more quickly when not using guard mode, but I have been playing on VH which makes the computer troops look dominant as far as accuracy and reload speed so it is hard to tell. However, I can attest that my units die less quickly behind cover!

Yeah, the cover stuff is pretty damn cool.
Would be nice if they shot faster (having the guys behind doing reloading) or if you could drag them out thinner.

Does the cover feature only work when you are defending? And does the season make a difference? I seem to remember being attacked in Winter and not being able to dig any defences.

Yeah there's been battles where I'm pretty sure I was the defender, but I couldn't place any defences.

Is there any way to force which side of a wall a unit takes cover on?

It appears that each wall can only be manned on one side and I've been finding this aspect very annoying. I'ev even had a few walls where sections were different, so you end up with something like this if all units were taking cover.

.............................\/\/\/\/...............
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^^^^.^^^^.^^^^............^^^^....

It also means I rarely see a wall out in the field that I can make use of because it's usually the wrong way for what I need. For instance, there was a wall around a house which an enemy unit was occupying. I wanted my men to take cover behind the wall to shoot at the house, but they would only take cover on the house side of the wall.

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Originally Posted by Murmandamus

Is there any way to force which side of a wall a unit takes cover on?

It appears that each wall can only be manned on one side and I've been finding this aspect very annoying. I'ev even had a few walls where sections were different, so you end up with something like this if all units were taking cover.

.............................\/\/\/\/...............
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^^^^.^^^^.^^^^............^^^^....

It also means I rarely see a wall out in the field that I can make use of because it's usually the wrong way for what I need. For instance, there was a wall around a house which an enemy unit was occupying. I wanted my men to take cover behind the wall to shoot at the house, but they would only take cover on the house side of the wall.

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If you click and hold on the unit concered you can 'pull' them to the side you want

Units in cover behind a stone wall with canister shot cannon behind them is my new favourite defensive setup. The AI tends to go for the cannon and get really close to the cover sometimes, so it's even useful to put some infantry with the cannon in a second line. The guys in cover are pretty much completely safe from friendly fire. Cover is the new black (the new DFK?)!

It's been my experience that my units don't, or only very rarely return fire, when using a wall for cover. Forcing me to abandon them to actually kill enemies.

I didn't want to start my own thread, but am i the only one who thinks covers a bit broken? Surely it should be a lot harder to assault a unit behind a wall, or a fence, infact cavalry launching itself over a wall seems to do even better then one attacking a unit in a field? Surely defending a wall should make it very difficult for infantry or cavalry to assault over it?

It is indeed awesome,
I simply couldn't think of much to actually talk about it though.

Cover has started behaving crappy for me... More often than not units in cover won't fire at all. This is with fire by rank researched, maybe it has something to do with it...
I've also charged a unit in cover from behind several times with cavalry and lost a stupid amount of men in the charge. For example, a weak, decimated infantry unit in cover just took the charge in the back but the cav dies when they reach the wall or something. Very annoying and counter intuitive.

Cover is kinda buggy. :-\

But the defensive stuff is nice especially because normal towns don't have a town square anymore. I just fortified all the approaches to a garrisoned building with trenches and defeated a 1/2 stack of AI militia the 4 Line Infantry.

Hiding behind walls is actually a bad idea when facing melee units like buccaneers or Native Americans. First, the firepower of your units is lessened. Only the front row seems to fire. Some have said fire by ranks makes this better but it seems silly that I have to research that to get a decent RoF from my guys.

Second, cover doesn't really hinder charges much. In my experience, at least. If given a running start, units can jump straight over cover, right into your unit. This should result in a bayonet sandwich but it doesn't. Cavalry barely seem hindered in the initial charge. Once stopped, their horses can have issues getting over the walls but the impact is still quite hard. Infantry, who aren't as wall challenged, are worse.

So, you end up killing fewer enemies at range and then having little to no advantage in the ensuing melee. Since melee units can't shoot back, I'd rather just deploy my men normally, in longer lines, behind the walls. That way, they can give off one nasty volley before they have to melee and maybe some enemies get tangled up on the walls. The PITA is when you face the sometimes charge-happy light and line infantry. Never know if the AI will want to shoot it out, where cover is quite awesome, or charge, where cover doesn't help as much. Though I haven't tested them as extensively, all this also seems to apply to the deployable "trenches," which are really walls.

Now I, the player, would never charge my men in such a manner, it's a pointless waste of lives. There are better ways to assault such units. The AI, usually having plenty of men to waste and the tactical brilliance of Larry the Cable Guy, doesn't care. It seems strange that it works so well anyway.

Cover is bugged for me. Only 1 or 2 guys shoot while the rest scratch their balls. Also most of the time it feels like a deathtrap. Enemy cav just ROLLS right over the wall without pause whereas my cav stalls right in front of a wall and just gets annihilated by a coupla volleys. Also i find buildings buggy as well. Whenever the AI takes cover in the building i can barely hurt him even with 3 units shooting at him (okay makes sense, cool), then when i occupy the EXACT same building type AND being shot at from the same direction that i was shooting enemies before by a SINGLE unit, i steadily lose units and give back garbage return fire since only like 10 guys are shooting back. Now things like this really need to be addressed cuz most of the time i'm just forced to bullrush since cover and musketry ALWAYS work against me.

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Originally Posted by Warhammer3025

Cover is bugged for me. Only 1 or 2 guys shoot while the rest scratch their balls. Also most of the time it feels like a deathtrap. Enemy cav just ROLLS right over the wall without pause whereas my cav stalls right in front of a wall and just gets annihilated by a coupla volleys. Also i find buildings buggy as well. Whenever the AI takes cover in the building i can barely hurt him even with 3 units shooting at him (okay makes sense, cool), then when i occupy the EXACT same building type AND being shot at from the same direction that i was shooting enemies before by a SINGLE unit, i steadily lose units and give back garbage return fire since only like 10 guys are shooting back. Now things like this really need to be addressed cuz most of the time i'm just forced to bullrush since cover and musketry ALWAYS work against me.

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Yep same issue for me. Cover is an annoyance as it's something the AI gets to use and I don't.

There is the issue of cav charges. Cavs + hiding behind walls = death. Especially if you're caught between the wall and the horses. I've seen 1/2 of a unit die from that.

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Originally Posted by Warhammer3025

Cover is bugged for me. Only 1 or 2 guys shoot while the rest scratch their balls. Also most of the time it feels like a deathtrap. Enemy cav just ROLLS right over the wall without pause whereas my cav stalls right in front of a wall and just gets annihilated by a coupla volleys. Also i find buildings buggy as well. Whenever the AI takes cover in the building i can barely hurt him even with 3 units shooting at him (okay makes sense, cool), then when i occupy the EXACT same building type AND being shot at from the same direction that i was shooting enemies before by a SINGLE unit, i steadily lose units and give back garbage return fire since only like 10 guys are shooting back. Now things like this really need to be addressed cuz most of the time i'm just forced to bullrush since cover and musketry ALWAYS work against me.

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Just placing your units behind walls gives them some useful cover , without having to actually deploy right along it {ie without having to use the specific feature , like what you do in the tutorial behind those log piles} .
This allows your unit to use its' full firepower potential {unless the enemy is closer to the wall than you , in which case the greater advantage goes to them} .

Any bugging of the feature must be intermittant and/or specific to certain conditions because it worked pretty much "as advertised" for me last night .
Try just standing them behind {and close to} a wall in custom battles to see if that works for you .

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Originally Posted by knoddy

cover is cool as is the defences u can build, the problem is that the ai reacts so poorly to it, ive seen my housemate slaughter armies which just stand there and do nothing cept die.

EDIT : i think they just need to adjust the AI's priorities

no 1. should be flank them
no 2. if they cant be flanked or a flanking attack is beaten off, try and draw them out, longer range infantry or even cannons or some form of horse gunner skirmishing (of course this depends on army makeup)
3. melee - no point having a shooting battle with someone sitting behind a wall. u will lose every time.


basically the ai just seems to get confused about which course of action to take when faced with units using cover.

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In my games (VH/VH) the AI does 1 and 3 quite consistently, never saw it just stand there and die tbh.
As for 2, I dont ythink the AI has been in a position to do so yet; my armies are typically quite artillery heavy, so trying to outshoot me would be a bad choice. Which it didnt make.

The way I do it is position my units a little further behind cover, so that they shoot the enemy when they try to climb over those walls. I also always have some grenadiers to smoke out any enemy units trying to hide behind those walls :)

It works perfectly, as the eney is temporarily slowed when they climb over walls, I get at least 6 volleys (2 times all three ranks) before they return fire. I get at least 2 volleys if that is a cavalry unit comming.

All on VH/H

Yes I found also my units ducked behind the wall without firing. For the cavalry charge I saw, instead, that fences are a more hard obstacle, with many, sometimes half, of the horses refusing the first jump. A line at twenty paces of a rail, holding fire till the Cavalry is jumping has a good chance to stop cold the charge

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Originally Posted by quadalpha

Those massive infantry earthwork things you can build are great too, but only (I think) if you're defending.

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yeah, defending - but there must be other conditions as well - I have only seen it once so far :help:

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Originally Posted by Liberator

yeah, defending - but there must be other conditions as well - I have only seen it once so far :help:

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You have to be defending while not having moved the prior turn from what I've seen -- so not if you're intercepted or ambushed, or just took a city, etc. The infantry earthworks are decent but I don't use any of the other "cover" options due to horrible pathing and buggy behavior; It's more efficacious to position units a few steps back from a wall in normal 3-rank formation and let the wall slow any attackers.

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yeah, defending - but there must be other conditions as well - I have only seen it once so far

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Your army must be dug in, ie it must have been in the same spot on the campaign map for 1 turn without moving and have the wooden stakes shown around it. If this is the case and you are attacked you get the chance to build defences.

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Originally Posted by Feanaro

Hiding behind walls is actually a bad idea when facing melee units like buccaneers or Native Americans. First, the firepower of your units is lessened. Only the front row seems to fire. Some have said fire by ranks makes this better but it seems silly that I have to research that to get a decent RoF from my guys.

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I agree taking cover behind a wall is a bad idea when facing melee troops. But if melee troops approach your position pull the defenders back and shoot as they have to stop and clear the walls.

My men had no problems when it came to cover until the newest patch.... since then they've been out of formation and only one or two would actually fire, the rest would crotch like scared plebs rather than properly trained soldiers. I liked the cover system until that problem.

Using Buildings for cover seems somewhat useless as only 5 units fire and its hard to attract the enemy to the stationary position. At least the AI doesn't always stay in them while under cannon fire anymore, otherwise they'd be massive graves and not cover.

It all depends on the battle. it has utterly failed me before, but it also saved me. i used it to defend boston from the english with mob infantry. I also used it to defend against prussia who just laughed at me and charged me. it was ridiculously opposite battles. Those trenches you can build are awesome though. very cool feature.

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Originally Posted by Discoman

Using Buildings for cover seems somewhat useless as only 5 units fire and its hard to attract the enemy to the stationary position. At least the AI doesn't always stay in them while under cannon fire anymore, otherwise they'd be massive graves and not cover.

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On that note, Puckle guns will dismantle a building in seconds, it's been funny watching the eternally garrisoned militia disintegrate.

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Originally Posted by Discoman

Using Buildings for cover seems somewhat useless as only 5 units fire and its hard to attract the enemy to the stationary position. At least the AI doesn't always stay in them while under cannon fire anymore, otherwise they'd be massive graves and not cover.

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The AI in my game will stand in a building until it falls in on them. :dizzy2:

Anyways, buildings are terrible from a shooting standpoint. You'd be lucky to kill ten enemies before they get inside. Once inside, though, your troops have a significant melee advantage. As GB, one unit of my line infantry was in a small building and, using socket bayonets, went up against a pirate mob of 600. More than half of those pirates were killed or routed by that one unit.

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Originally Posted by Feanaro

The AI in my game will stand in a building until it falls in on them. :dizzy2:

Anyways, buildings are terrible from a shooting standpoint. You'd be lucky to kill ten enemies before they get inside. Once inside, though, your troops have a significant melee advantage. As GB, one unit of my line infantry was in a small building and, using socket bayonets, went up against a pirate mob of 600. More than half of those pirates were killed or routed by that one unit.

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The point of garrisonning isn't against other infantry, but against horses, as I found out in my doomed Maratha campaign.

I had an army of lancers, a demi-cannon and a few Bargir line inf., the Mughal had mostly crummy militia and one unit of those superduper musketeers of theirs (green jackets, red conical hats). On paper (and on the campaign map) it looked like an easy victory, and it started out as such. The lancers dealt with the militia in the open, then came the time to get those musketeers out of a townhall that was well out of cannon range.
Now, Barghir infantry are top notch shooters, but piss poor in melee, esp. without bayonets so first I tried shooting it out... to little effect. By the time I had killed 10 of theirs, 40+ of mine were dead, so I moved them back out of range and had the first unit charge in. Got them all killed, musketeers down to 55. Second unit charged, got slaughtered, musketeers down to 35. Last unit charges, gets slaughtered, musketeers were now down to a dozen or so... Against a bunch of elephants and 4 fresh units of lancers.
Close defeat, and my army torn to bits.

Incidentally, has anyone seen the AI deploy trenches?

I'm my game they always seem to use anti-cavalry defenses even though I typically have no more than 1 or 2 units of cavalry and large numbers of line infantry.

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Originally Posted by PBI

Incidentally, has anyone seen the AI deploy trenches?

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Yes, although much like the stakes it will often abandon the defensive positions to run halfway across the map for no apparent reason.

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Originally Posted by PBI

Incidentally, has anyone seen the AI deploy trenches?

I'm my game they always seem to use anti-cavalry defenses even though I typically have no more than 1 or 2 units of cavalry and large numbers of line infantry.

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That's because the expected use of cavalry for the AI is to hurl itself at an infantry unit as early as possible in a battle, to then be shattered before the infantry even arrive and flee from the battle. ;)

Seriously though, I've seen trenches a few times, but like you mostly anti-cav defenses. Like Ordani stated, they're almost always abandoned for some random stone wall far away from anything or for a nice artillery-target-practice-suicide-building. The AI also seems happy to abandon it's artillery when it's dug in, so it's wide open to a cavalry attack from behind, since it can't turn with those defensive sandbag things.

Actually, I have never ever had to assault a defensive position in this game. I have always been able to lure the enemy to me, except when they have a fort. The AI always seems to decide it's in trouble as soon as it loses men to missile fire, so as soon as I hit them with a mortar, they send everything that isn't garrisoned or in cover at my line and then I'm free to blow up the buildings the rest of them are hiding in. Alternatively you can flank them with light cavalry, which almost always results in some melee mob being obsessed with the flanking cavalry, to the point where it neatly follows it and walks right by your line to get annihilated, which then results in the previously mentioned behaviour of strange and meaningless attempts at retaliation.