Not flaming Ca

Not flaming the guys who have created a brilliant game. Would I pay double for the campaign, yes I would.

Got to have a slight moan though:

Steam. Nothing for me, plenty for you. I don't won't this memory resident software.

"Special forces". This is an add -on released at the same time as the game (I bought it) but left a bad taste in my mouth. Why? Is £35 not enough for you?

I am sure others have said this but just needed to put my two-penneth in.

CA, I love your games but don't take me for granted. I have friends who have not bought because of Steam.

regards

Yeah! I have to concur here, something has gone badly awry at CA, and I suspect its all down to bullying by SEGA.

First, of all we the customers were forced to accept an officially sanctioned piece of spyware being embedded on our computers by Medieval Kingdoms before we were allowed to play the game. This spyware is actually sold separately by SEGA to other game producers with the promise that it can be programmed to gather any marketing data they want on their customers, and has also been embedded in other games like Bioshock. Now we find we are forced to download another invasive piece of software to play this game.

I don’t blame CA for this, but if you play with sharks expect to get bitten. I find it sad that such a good company has fallen under the influence of such an immoral one.

I don't mind Steam at all. I am using it since 2003 and never had any problems. The Special Forces Editions on the other hand are a bad marketing idea imho. The game as a low unit diversity as it is. Why spread out a handful of unique units to different versions and charge extra for it. Hopefully they will add those units to all game versions later on.

But what really angered me is the state of the released game. How could this pass testing and go gold? I know the publisher putting pressure on the developer, they have no choice - granted. But this bugfest sets a new low even by CAs poor track record for buggy (but at its core great) games...

EDIT:

Remember when everyone was blaming Activision for putting pressure on poor CA and not allowing them to properly patch their game (RTW and the infamous save load bug comes to mind)? And the cheering when SEGA took over and everyone was oh so hopeful that it would all change for the better? Seems like there is not much difference between those two publishers after all.

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Originally posted by Didz
Yeah! I have to concur here, something has gone badly awry at CA, and I suspect its all down to bullying by SEGA.

First, of all we the customers were forced to accept an officially sanctioned piece of spyware being embedded on our computers by Medieval Kingdoms before we were allowed to play the game. This spyware is actually sold separately by SEGA to other game producers with the promise that it can be programmed to gather any marketing data they want on their customers, and has also been embedded in other games like Bioshock. Now we find we are forced to download another invasive piece of software to play this game.

I don’t blame CA for this, but if you play with sharks expect to get bitten. I find it sad that such a good company has fallen under the influence of such an immoral one.

---

Mike Simpson (CA Studio director) actually many times said in the press that CA are delighted by the fact that SEGA bought them, simply because of the stability and security that this move brought. In essence they are an in-house developer for SEGA and this means they have a greater decision freedom/stability-safety ratio. Word for word he said *Its great that we dont have to worry where from tomorrows meal will be coming from* or something to that effect (PC gamer/Spring 2008 me thinks).

As such, branding SEGA *immoral* and CA *such a good company* is with all due respect childish.

Steam is used by many other games/companies and has plenty of potential for the TW mp game too.

I for one hold the game developer CA responsible for delivering a quality product. In business people work all the time with deadlines and there is NO excuse for delivering an inferior product. I find it amazing that some users are happy with substandard products and grateful that they got what they got. I guess that is why used car salesmen are still successful.

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Originally posted by Veresov
I for one hold the game developer CA responsible for delivering a quality product.

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Hello Veresov,
Maybe you mean holding them responsible for not delivering a quality product?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Veresov

I for one hold the game developer CA responsible for delivering a quality product. In business people work all the time with deadlines and there is NO excuse for delivering an inferior product. I find it amazing that some users are happy with substandard products and grateful that they got what they got. I guess that is why used car salesmen are still successful.

---

I think you'll find that more often than not the people at the top, the suits, have very little comprehension of game development beyond the fact it can bring them money, and lots of it, too. One forum I visit, CG Society, has a thread dedicated to the idiocy some people come out with, and plenty of times, the bosses have turned out to be total morons. Seriously. Not giving relevant information, placing unrealistic deadlines, thinking it's all magic, that sort of thing. I suspect pretty much this has happened with the recent Total War games. The people on the shop floor do their darned best, but they can only do so much with some of the very much ridiculous restraints and pressures put on them. At the end of the day, if they can't get something done, they really haven't been allowed enough time, because that is what it takes - time. Unless a company is it's own publisher as well as developer, like Valve (with the Half Life games and Portal, to name but a limited number of games they've produced), then that company will face problems. And yes, you might think that the people running companies should have an idea about making games, but they don't - sometimes, the people assigned to running the shop floor don't always have what it takes, yet their word is gospel, you have to do what they say.

The state of the gaming industry will be determined by the attitude of the people at the top, the suits. If they want something, it's money, and they will get it, or your company could easily be finished, and the lives of your employees. It is sad, yes, but unless people vote with their feet by the tens of thousands, expecting only the best of titles like Total War, the people on the shop floor will remain slaves to the machine that is ignorance and greed combined.

CA have basically done the best they can under the circumstances, and in an economic downturn, they won't want to argue with any of their bosses because that can mean disaster. Their bosses probably won't understand anyway, and will wonder where the 'Make Campaign Map' button is and why no one has used it yet (disturbingly, that is a very realistic possibility with some people).

Hello Kaidonni, how come you left MTW to make the jump to ETW?

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Originally posted by Kaidonni
I think you'll find that more often than not the people at the top, the suits, have very little comprehension of game development beyond the fact it can bring them money, and lots of it, too. One forum I visit, CG Society, has a thread dedicated to the idiocy some people come out with, and plenty of times, the bosses have turned out to be total morons. Seriously. Not giving relevant information, placing unrealistic deadlines, thinking it's all magic, that sort of thing. I suspect pretty much this has happened with the recent Total War games. The people on the shop floor do their darned best, but they can only do so much with some of the very much ridiculous restraints and pressures put on them. At the end of the day, if they can't get something done, they really haven't been allowed enough time, because that is what it takes - time. Unless a company is it's own publisher as well as developer, like Valve (with the Half Life games and Portal, to name but a limited number of games they've produced), then that company will face problems. And yes, you might think that the people running companies should have an idea about making games, but they don't - sometimes, the people assigned to running the shop floor don't always have what it takes, yet their word is gospel, you have to do what they say.

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OR you can still accept the risks and stay independent - but not everyone is 28 or 34 for ever. People have mortgages and wife and kids to feed and some admittedly ambitions of grandeur that take far more than wife and kids. But this is the real world. And those that wish it better, start their own mods or their own game companies even or at the very least - they boycott effectively instead of hanging around the same scene for 9 years only just complaining. I am sure that the *suits* are laughing sardonically at such threads because, despite their *idiocy* they are smart enough to figure out that pc game fans complaining is a sort of a vice in many cases (not all). In other words it feels good. I would go as far to say that they consider it a good sign:laugh4:

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The state of the gaming industry will be determined by the attitude of the people at the top, the suits. If they want something, it's money, and they will get it, or your company could easily be finished, and the lives of your employees. It is sad, yes, but unless people vote with their feet by the tens of thousands, expecting only the best of titles like Total War, the people on the shop floor will remain slaves to the machine that is ignorance and greed combined.

---

Well thank God then that we talk about the game idustry and not any other vital one - it isnt exactly the end of the world if people that make decisions there are corrupt and greedy. At the most we ll have to stop playing games. Hardly significant loss - or not? :laugh4:

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CA have basically done the best they can under the circumstances, and in an economic downturn, they won't want to argue with any of their bosses because that can mean disaster. Their bosses probably won't understand anyway, and will wonder where the 'Make Campaign Map' button is and why no one has used it yet (disturbingly, that is a very realistic possibility with some people).

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CA have been *doing their best* eversince 2004 that they ve discovered that releasing a game with 100 times more bugs than up to then, with 100 more features that the AI cant use than up to then, 100 times less playtested than up to then, but with a 100 times better graphics than up to then, made the fanbase 100 times bigger than up to then :2thumbsup:

Now please expand...:beam:

I think the problem is the game industry/game journalism industry corruption. Spore was reviewed and got many 9/10s. That's enough to prove something's wrong.

When people stop trusting these liars, and rely only on word of mouth and forum feedback, then we'll see an improvement in the quality of games. As it is now, reviewers suck up to the games companies because otherwise their magazine/website has advertising pulled. So publishers can just boot a game out onto the shelves and they know if it's so hotly anticipated at E:TW was, it'll still bring in good reviews.

Unfortunately it'll be a while before people learn not to be such blind sheep.

Gollum: Actually, I don't have ETW. Won't be getting it for a while, if ever. Bad experience with Stalker: Clear Sky, you see.

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Originally posted by The_Reckoning
I think the problem is the game industry/game journalism industry corruption. Spore was reviewed and got many 9/10s. That's enough to prove something's wrong.

When people stop trusting these liars, and rely only on word of mouth and forum feedback, then we'll see an improvement in the quality of games. As it is now, reviewers suck up to the games companies because otherwise their magazine/website has advertising pulled. So publishers can just boot a game out onto the shelves and they know if it's so hotly anticipated at E:TW was, it'll still bring in good reviews.

Unfortunately it'll be a while before people learn not to be such blind sheep.

---

Hello The_Reckoning,
Well these *liars* are there for that reason precisely - however they do have a function - and that function is to review all titles not just the big ones. So instead of giving the responsibility to them why dont we turn the light right back to where it belongs ie to us the fans? How many of us buy games that have a good AI, take time to learn, are well thought out and balanced, have good support but lack a brand name and graphics? How many know about Les Grognards (http://www.battlefront.com/products/les_grog/) or 2nd Manassas (http://madminutegames.com/)? The people that develop them were amateurs like you and me that turned developers undergoing the risk of bankruptcy in the process. So?

Not many i presume... and why? Because they are for hardcores, boring etc etc etc. So now lets go all back to complain about CA/SEGA and after that play some more ETW, before we log back in to complain some more... :laugh4:

Hello Kaidonni, i see. Imho ETW is better than RTW/M2TW - however it isnt even on a par with MTW.

:bow:

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Originally Posted by Veresov

I for one hold the game developer CA responsible for delivering a quality product. In business people work all the time with deadlines and there is NO excuse for delivering an inferior product. I find it amazing that some users are happy with substandard products and grateful that they got what they got.

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Substandard compared to what? All software has bugs the bigger the software the more it is likely to have bugs in it. Just look at how often windows is updated. And Empire is a big bit of software which is a quality bit of work its just a shame due to time money and the size of it they could not sort out all the ruff edges but it is still playable.
Lets compare it to say CoD 4 that needs 8GB compared to Empires 15GB Its single player is a liner scripted campaign where as empire is much more complicated and less scripted and I've still had bugs and crashes in CoD 4 and it has still had patches.

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Originally Posted by Veresov

I guess that is why used car salesmen are still successful.

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I guess you are ether not old enough to have a car or rich enough not to worry about the cost of one. A well looked after car can last for years my sister has a 15 year old Nissan that has done 120k miles and is still going strong and it only cost her £500 she got a good deal for her 1st car I say.

And lastly new cars have problems too, need software updates and parts replaced etc.

I for one am enjoying playing Empire total war at the mo.

Maybe we should sticky one of the rant threads and avoid the repetition.

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Originally posted by quadalpha
Maybe we should sticky one of the rant threads and avoid the repetition.

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A dangerous proposition - complain threads especially early in a release spread like mushrooms, and actually for whatever reason people are complaining (bugs, dissapointment or for the sheer hell of it) its one of the things a forum is about. It is a good way out for the fans in case things are really wrong (and even if they arent :laugh4:) and a good gauge for the developer too.

Closing that route - would make the fanbase like a pressure cooker without a release valve :tnt:

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Originally Posted by gollum

As such, branding SEGA *immoral* and CA *such a good company* is with all due respect childish.

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Well sorry but how else do you describe a company that embeds Securom spyware into its products and then sells that spyware and the ability to code it to third parties.

Of course SEGA and its customers (like EA) don't tell you when you install one of their games that you are actually embedding a spyware program into your PC, that cannot be uninstalled again, even if you uninstall the game. That might put you off buying their product, instead they just slip it on the disk secretly so you will never realise its there unless it starts messing up your system, and even then you wouldn't know to blame Securom because you don't even know its there. The fact is everyone reading this forum probably has it embedded on their PC, and it does interfere with your system, as several class action suits against SEGA and EA have already shown.

You can find out more about this secret application which is embedded in your PC here http://www.securom.com, but its what this site doesn't tell you which is more interesting and worrying.

In the early days SEGA were quite bullish about using Securom on their products. They were so excited about this new era in game security and marketing that when you visited their website you could actually access and read SEGA's own marketing 'blurb' about the benefits of using this product for game publishers.

Since the class action suits SEGA have become a bit more secretive about advertising what Securom is capable of doing, and unless you actually buy the product you can't read about its full potential on their website, as its hidden behind 'customer only' restictions.

However, the main benefit they were peddling in the early days was that Securom comes with the potential to be coded by the customer who purchases it to 'gather any marketing information you consider relevant to your market and products' and 'to vary the content and nature of that data gathering over time as your marketing interests change'. The package necessary to code Securom was sold as a seperate ancillary product and came with the ability to update the Securom software already embedded on the PC's of your customers at any time.

Note: This ability is NOT limited to simple data gathering. If you read the class action suits you will see that Securom also has the potential to be used to prevent the customer running any application that the company owning the access rights to the software decides their customers should not be allowed to use. Eldridge lists a few that EA chose to inhibit, but effectively the list is only limited by the the coder, and could vary according to the desires of each Securom customer and over time.

In effect, not only is Securom a piece of spyware, but it has the potential to be a trojan horse which has its own key to bypass all your PC security programs. All it actually needs is for one game publisher who has purchased the marketing expansion from SEGA, to employ a dodgy coder, or allow someone to steal their access protocols and we could find Securom being used as a certain way of loading mailicious programs onto our PC's.

Now you can call me childish, for labelling the decision to not only use but sell this software immoral. Personally, I would say that it was not only immoral but criminal, and I'm not alone in this view as the following transcripts of the class action suits already lodged in the US show.

Eldridge-vs-EA

Cortez-vs-EA

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Originally Posted by The_Reckoning

I think the problem is the game industry/game journalism industry corruption. Spore was reviewed and got many 9/10s. That's enough to prove something's wrong.

When people stop trusting these liars, and rely only on word of mouth and forum feedback, then we'll see an improvement in the quality of games. As it is now, reviewers suck up to the games companies because otherwise their magazine/website has advertising pulled. So publishers can just boot a game out onto the shelves and they know if it's so hotly anticipated at E:TW was, it'll still bring in good reviews.

Unfortunately it'll be a while before people learn not to be such blind sheep.

---

Quoted for truth but I also agree with Gollums assertion that the responcibility should rest with the buyer themselves although lets face it, it's too much to ask people to think for themselves.
It's a sad state of affairs when you can guess the kind of score a game will get in major publications the moment it is announced but trust me, you can. I've been doing it for years. I knew that Empire: Total War would get rave reviews just like you can predict shallow tat like Spore getting rave reviews because the "innovation" of such games is hyped so much that by the time the review comes the reader has already bought it. Black and White was a great example of such a game. I'm not saying it was bad, but by God did the mainstream go mad over this thing in the day and although an enjoyable game it wasn't exactly the work of genius it was claimed to be.

Now as it happens, I love Empire and I've been fortunate enough to not have any problems aside from being unable to install from the second DVD. But on the matter of CA... I just don't know. I don't buy this "evil publisher ruling with an iron fist over the peasant developers who toil away alturistically" thing. The fact of the matter is that we've had this same experience time and again with this series and some people will always blame the publisher. They may well be a factor but I really doubt it's as simple as that. We just don't know.
As for CA being publically pleased having Sega as their publisher, well, they aren't exactly going to come out and say "yeah these guys suck, this will be a testing time" :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by gollum

Not many i presume... and why? Because they are for hardcores, boring etc etc etc. So now lets go all back to complain about CA/SEGA and after that play some more ETW, before we log back in to complain some more... :laugh4:

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The thing is E:TW would be an amazing game, if it were finished. I'm sure those games are fun, and maybe have awesome AI, but they're not Total War. If TW was just a battle simulator I'd probably not have played it.

It's the interplay between campaign map strategy and battles which makes the games fun and unique. It's not just a battle to kill the enemy, it's a battle where the consequences of losing mean that all the hard work on the strategy map pay off; the one which will put your rival out of the game, or the one which will mean your nation is done for.

E:TW is practically unplayable for me. I enjoy commanding the few pivotal battles, and spending the rest of the time on the campaign map. With so many aspects of the game in a beta state I can't play it. And it's not just for hardcore players, if it has good AI. It's about creating pivotal moments, they're the parts people enjoy. Some people are just too dumb to notice that when the AI's horrible, it makes no difference how well they do. Some enjoy the one-sidedness, where they don't have to do anything right to take over the world in the game. Where it's just a case of how qucikly they can do it, without a chance that the tables would be turned and they fail.

That's why multiplayer is so much more fun in most games, because you get comebacks, surprise tactics and innovation.

Why I blame the journalists, is if the corruption didn't exist, if they made their money being brutally honest and ripping games to shreds, like Yahtzee, rather than being fluffers for the publishing compaines who advertise with their media, then companies like SEGA would rather their dev. studios make the best product possible, the incentive to rush things would be massively reduced. They'd know that if their game came out and was so buggy as to be unplayable, they'd get bad reviews and bad sales.

It'd work the same way the restaurant industry works. You don't get bad food and well-reviewed restaurants, because critics are harsh, and make their names on being honest. The same of everything with a media complex surrounding it. The countries with the most liberal media are often the best governed.

Hello Didz,
you are preaching to the converted. All i tried to point out is not to let CA slip past the hook in your books. They know very well the game and play by the rules.

Hello The_Reckoning,
you are right mp has this advantage over sp - in case you are interested feel free to join the org ETW mp group;
http://steamcommunity.com/groups/etwmp

I think a point is, who has actually used the special forces units?

I certainly haven't, they are subpar to my other choices. They do nothing for the game for me, just a waste of space on the UI.

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Originally posted by Quickening
As for CA being publically pleased having Sega as their publisher, well, they aren't exactly going to come out and say "yeah these guys suck, this will be a testing time"

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Hello Quickening,
Actually CA in the past have made it publicly known that their previous publisher Activision wasnt all that good to them. They havent done it a single time yet with SEGA though and there are many reasons to believe that they are genuinely happy with them.

Just for the record Zerg,

I can't even play Empire because of all the well documented hardware incompatibilities. It is not a minor bug when you have sound issues and a consistent CTD after pressing the end turn button. I am one out of many, many users having problems. The technical help sections at the official forums are flooded with users unable to play this game. A gameplay bug is one thing but this is something absolutely unacceptable when you play for a game and can't play it.

Now perhaps you can understand why I review Empire as an unacceptably flawed product. I CAN'T EVEN RUN IT after several weeks of purchasing it and 3 patches to date! I hope now that you understand some of the hostility I have towards Creative Assembly and why I could care less about Sega, deadlines, ect. At the end of the day, Empire is an expensive coaster for me.

That sounds pretty bad Veresov,
good luck with it.

My advice for rule of thumb with TW games is never to buy before v2.0. And before you ask, yes that means not buying RTW/M2TW :laugh4:

For many of us Steam seems to be ok because it allows such quick updates.

The down side is you have to have them and you can’t go back if the fix causes some other problem to crop up.

All in all however, I have to say I like the way it is going.

The game has issues but it is getting fixed and the downloads from steam have been quick.

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Originally Posted by gollum

Hello Kaidonni, i see. Imho ETW is better than RTW/M2TW - however it isnt even on a par with MTW.

:bow:

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bottom line for me.....what Gollum said...at least with mtw units were responcive and went and did what ya told them to do...
had a calv unit chaseing a calv arty unit...in mtw l woulda had them dead...in etw they did everything but attack calv arty....across whole map they couldnt catch them or could l force them into a position to block......
anyway what Gollum said.......:thumbsdown:

dont know anything about steam.....yesterdays update was quick easy painless and not even noticed by most...brought everyones game stats up to par quicky without haveing to run around huntin a patch...guess this part has gotta be a good thing for us all




srry for 2 posts....just wakein up :O)

Hello CanCritter,
thanks for the kind words and i agree with you but there are few of us left now - the TW fanbase consist out of many people that never even played MTW. So its really a point of view between us and not for the community as a whole.

:bow:

PS The Main Hall its still going strong for those left...~;)

Why do people continue to complain about this?

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All software has bugs the bigger the software the more it is likely to have bugs in it.

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It has been that way since computers started, the only difference now is the Net allows companies to release software with more bugs in it. On the other hand, a game (or any software of this magnitude) would probably not even have been attempted without that allowance. There is not a single piece of software available any ware that is "bug-free." such a thing dose not exist, and if you think it dose you simply have not found the bugs yet. The best you can hope for with any piece of software is continued support and patches. Though admittedly CA has been lax in that department and will be a valid platform for complaint when they stop supporting Empires, as it is that they stopped supporting M2.

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I can't even play Empire because of all the well documented hardware incompatibilities.

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Try testing any piece of software with all possible hardware combinations and let me know how far you get, costs aside it will be impossible. It is greatly disturbing they released it incompatible with some big names (such as NVidia,) I'll give you that, even so such big names are well known to be incompatible with any software that was not expressly made for it (ie "presented by Nvidia" logo, which of course, costs the software company money) that's how they make the money to become such a big name. For most hardware incompatibilities they have temporary workarounds that should at least allow the game to run until there are compatible drivers or patches that make the game compatible.

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Originally Posted by gollum

Well thank God then that we talk about the game idustry and not any other vital one - it isnt exactly the end of the world if people that make decisions there are corrupt and greedy. At the most we ll have to stop playing games. Hardly significant loss - or not? :laugh4:

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You mean, like Wall Street, which used the same practices, and the ongoing global financial market meltdown? That's not significant? :shocked:

All software companies, not just game developers, are run by "suits," rather than by technically competent folks. On the other hand, the latter tend to fuss over and polish unimportant details to the point of never sending out a release. :wall:

So, as with anything in life, it's a question of balance. In this case, business needs (timely revenue/ROI) vs. product quality. As I've pointed out elsewhere, each successive CA release has been worse on the product quality. Sadly, this one sets a new low water mark. :bigcry:

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Originally Posted by gollum

A dangerous proposition - complain threads especially early in a release spread like mushrooms, and actually for whatever reason people are complaining (bugs, dissapointment or for the sheer hell of it) its one of the things a forum is about. It is a good way out for the fans in case things are really wrong (and even if they arent :laugh4:) and a good gauge for the developer too.

Closing that route - would make the fanbase like a pressure cooker without a release valve :tnt:

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A wise decision. :rtwyes:

Hello MikeV,
that paragraph you quoted was taken out of context - it was a reply to someone elses post that has nothing to do with what you post here.

Out of curiosity since when did you started playing TW and did you play mp as well as sp?

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Originally Posted by Quickening

It's a sad state of affairs when you can guess the kind of score a game will get in major publications the moment it is announced but trust me, you can. I've been doing it for years.

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A bit off-topic, but I've noticed the same things with movies from Hollywood: the more advertising near the release date, the more of a dog they're pushing. Since game companies are consciously imitating Hollywood (why ?!?! :stars:), the inverse correlation you note is probably to be expected.

Nowadays, I don't buy anything Hollywood is selling. Will the same become true of game software?

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Originally Posted by Fisherking

For many of us Steam seems to be ok because it allows such quick updates.

The down side is you have to have them and you can’t go back if the fix causes some other problem to crop up.

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Well, I think the decision to use Steam for "quick" updates to buggy software is deeply flawed (I can buy the MP justification, but imitating Micro$oft's lousy practice is Not Good). To date, they're not turning around the bug fixes any faster than the olde way.

I really, Really, REALLY hate the loss of control over patching this software. :rtwno: It needs to be under my control when to apply the patch, and I need to be able to undo/redo if it doesn't take (or makes things worse). I don't dare let Steam go into Online mode for the former reason, but I have no recourse for the latter (other than to wait for some other brave souls to try the new patch and let me know it's OK to proceed).

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Originally Posted by CavalryCmdr

It has been that way since computers started, the only difference now is the Net allows companies to release software with more bugs in it. On the other hand, a game (or any software of this magnitude) would probably not even have been attempted without that allowance. There is not a single piece of software available any ware that is "bug-free." such a thing dose not exist, and if you think it dose you simply have not found the bugs yet. The best you can hope for with any piece of software is continued support and patches.

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Your assertion is plausible for the old-fashioned, 20th Century, way of developing and publishing software. The critical issue is that there is not enough time and talent to work out all the (significant) bugs before release, and the folks are needed for the next project after the release.

However, the modern approach is to get as many eyeballs as possible on the code, and to spread the workload of finding and exterminating the bugs over as large a population as possible. Dare I say "open source"? A revolutionary notion, indeed -- 'way beyond simple modding via data changes. :idea2:

Dear me, gotta be careful what we post - dont wanna end up with the lions or something...:laugh4:

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Originally Posted by MikeV

Your assertion is plausible for the old-fashioned, 20th Century, way of developing and publishing software. The critical issue is that there is not enough time and talent to work out all the (significant) bugs before release, and the folks are needed for the next project after the release.

However, the modern approach is to get as many eyeballs as possible on the code, and to spread the workload of finding and exterminating the bugs over as large a population as possible. Dare I say "open source"? A revolutionary notion, indeed -- 'way beyond simple modding via data changes. :idea2:

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Silly hippie, this is a comercial product. :egypt:

What do you think open betas are for anyways? CA really should release one for the next game seriously, they should have learned by now that they can't stamp out all the bugs in house.

I concede that CA's past 2 releases (E:TW and M2) have seemed more of an "open beta" then a "commercial product."
Personally I don't mind, even an open beta would not track down so many bugs this quickly. So M2 was not a "finished product" until about 4 months after it was released (patch 1.2) but after that patch it turned out to be one pretty awesome game, IMO, and pretty darn fun to mod if I was bored of playing. For myself I have no problem going through the same thing again, so long as I get the same results, indeed that's why I bought the game the day it hit the shelves instead of waiting a couple months or reading "real" reviews. I also must say that E:TW is far more like a finished product then M2 was, so to me that's a step in the right direction.

Actually I think an open beta would probably fix most of the bugs, definetly those campaign stopping fleet clicking CTD ones! and those are the ones that make ETW an expensive coaster as well for now. and as far as I remember, I really don't remember Medieval 2 total war being this bad at the start, I could be wrong, but I don't remember having this kind of game stopping crashing bug which would end the game completely, I could be wrong, I mostly remember the bugs that ended battles that you were almost done with and won, more than campaign ending show stopping bugs.

I love the potential for ETW and I am glad that CA will fix these bugs eventually, but right now... I'm not overly impressed, I don't mind the bugs that are probably my fault, but those CTD's are just something you think they might have been able to pick up earlier... :smash:

I for one refuse to put STEAM on my computer. I had to buy a crappy $800 laptop for travelling (just so my good one would not be damaged), so I bought ETW and installed it on that. It is playable, but barely. I cannot install it on my beast gaming rig though, because I do not want STEAM on it. Now I am restricted to horrible performance and will never be able to enjoy the good graphics. The Special Forces Edition was just a way to milk the fans. I think SEGA needs a kick in the butt to be honest. These two things, as well as rushing the game out are my big complaints. I find the campaign fun (minus enormous load times, which on my laptop can be over 10 minutes - no exagerration), but the battles are ridiculous. The AI sends its crappy cavalry out at me way ahead of its other forces, lets me wipe it out in a volley, then splits its men into wacky and illogical groups and moves one unit forward a step, then the next unit forward a step, etc. So it ends up taking the 10 darned years to finally reach me (so as you can guess I have been doing all the attacking, even in defense battles :P). The will put thier men in front of cover instead of behind it, so I just march a group of line infantry up behind them and wipe em out. :P Got quite a few other battlefield gripes, but suffice it to say, that I loath fighting my own battles now. :P The campaign map is still fun though. (though also bugged :P) I have a feeling that most of these issues would not be in the game if SEGA had not rushed development so that CA is working like frantic to finish the game a month after release. Let's put it like this, I got no problem with CA (except their historical inaccuracy, but I forgave them for 90% of that when I saw quotes from Edward Gibbon in the game :beam:), but I really think they need a new publisher.

why won't you put steam on your gaming beast?

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Originally Posted by Durallan

why won't you put steam on your gaming beast?

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I can't answer for Vuk of course, but I know why I was reluctant to put it on mine, though I have. For me it boils down to preferring to manage my own games, file system and software. I'd mind less much if I felt that Steam were actually competent (I didn't mind so much putting Stardock Central and Impact on it, though Impact did cause me some worries when it first appeared and didn't work very well). How can I be confident in letting Steam manage parts of my machine when they do such a poor job at times of managing their own product?

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Originally posted by CavalryCmdr
I concede that CA's past 2 releases (E:TW and M2) have seemed more of an "open beta" then a "commercial product."

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Me too, only RTW was an open Alpha :laugh4:

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Originally posted by Vuk
I for one refuse to put STEAM on my computer.

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Yes you refused to installed it because you did so in the custom bought laptop for ETW - talk about model boycotting :laugh4:

Steams alright. I'd rather not have it but it's certainly not on the level of Securicom.

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Originally Posted by Quickening

Steams alright. I'd rather not have it but it's certainly not on the level of Securicom.

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SecuROM. Yes, I agree. Or even worse, Starforce.

It isn't that Steam is awful, just that it is frustrating. Most of the issues I have with it are only little things but ones that wouldn't be difficult for them to do better.

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Originally Posted by antisocialmunky

Silly hippie, this is a comercial product. :egypt:

What do you think open betas are for anyways? CA really should release one for the next game seriously, they should have learned by now that they can't stamp out all the bugs in house.

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I think you should document yourself a bit before throwing "pseudo insult"
Agile Unified Process
Agile software development
Who's Your Coding Buddy?
Real Ultimate Programming Power

Open Source approach had a great influence over the programming techniques in the last 10 years.

It look like Steam has a perverted negative influance over patch deployment for ETW. Yes it's easy to deploy patch but since it so easy to deploy, it look like less quality control was done. That would make a great Dilbert cartoon

@Vuk

Why the hell don't you want Steam? It's a brilliant program. Do you realise how many games are only sold over it now?

If it were flawed in any way then don't you think there'd be a massive amount of complaints?

Please, don't start that. Vuk can choose whatever opinion he wants on steam, as can anybody else. There is no "enlightenment" in a debate on steam, so you could say it is a pointless endeavour.

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Originally Posted by gollum

Hello MikeV,
that paragraph you quoted was taken out of context - it was a reply to someone elses post that has nothing to do with what you post here.

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Point taken, sorry.

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Originally Posted by gollum

Out of curiosity since when did you started playing TW and did you play mp as well as sp?

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I started with the original Shogun, and have tried every version and expansion since (except Alexander). I modded my copies of R:TW and M2:TW to do AORs and building trees more to my liking.

I've only ever used SP mode, and spent the vast majority of my time on the strat map. I've never enjoyed FPSs, MMO frag fests, or any of that sort of stuff. Chalk it up to being a 3-decade grognard, I guess.

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Originally Posted by MikeV

I really, Really, REALLY hate the loss of control over patching this software. :rtwno: It needs to be under my control when to apply the patch, and I need to be able to undo/redo if it doesn't take (or makes things worse). I don't dare let Steam go into Online mode for the former reason, but I have no recourse for the latter (other than to wait for some other brave souls to try the new patch and let me know it's OK to proceed).

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OK, I found a solution for this one. First, it's possible to set an option in the Steam client and ask it not to automatically patch the app (which, for some reason, it ignores/resets). Second, the Steam client has a "Back up game files" option that, for E:TW, with create either 14 CD images or 2 DVD images. Presumably, if the patch scrogs your system, you can roll back. A bit of a bludgeon, but workable.

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Originally Posted by Melvish

Open Source approach had a great influence over the programming techniques in the last 10 years.

It look like Steam has a perverted negative influance over patch deployment for ETW. Yes it's easy to deploy patch but since it so easy to deploy, it look like less quality control was done. That would make a great Dilbert cartoon

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Good point!

I doubt we'll ever see this code open-sourced, unless it's about to become abandonware. And, I'm not sure it's in any shape to be refactored easily. Given some of the chronic bugs that have lingered since R:TW, I'm not optimistic.

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Originally Posted by The_Reckoning

@Vuk

Why the hell don't you want Steam? It's a brilliant program. Do you realise how many games are only sold over it now?

If it were flawed in any way then don't you think there'd be a massive amount of complaints?

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Why aren't there massive amounts of complaints? Last time I looked there were. :P I have gotten into quite a few debates on quite a few forums since STEAM was announced with Half-Life 2 (one of the games I was looking forward to most in gaming history, but have not and will not buy because of STEAM). I have presented lots of data about it to very STEAM savvy people on the Half-Life 2 boards to explain why no one should support the spyware, but everyone wants convinience. :P I installed it on my traveltop to play ETW, but it will not go on any of the 4 other computers. Also, I find it an inconvienence to have STEAM manage everything for me, and it limits the amount of things you can go in there and mess around with. :P Not to mention it takes a hit on performance.
Market is right though, it is pointless to argue, and I am not gonna get into a debate about it here. Suffice it to say that this is the only STEAM powered game I am buying, and STEAM is not going any farther than this laptop. Also, true to my promise years ago, I have not bought Half-life 2 (even though it is very tempting), and will not.

Thanks MikeV
:bow:

To start I am NOT a fan of Steam, however there are a few points about it that I'd like to point out.

1, steam installs only with your consent.
2, Steam can be removed from your system.
3, Steam has an offline option that will stop it from uploading anything (note this dose not stop it's spy-ware capabilities!)
4, A third party (ie. not Microsoft affiliated) firewall with anti-spy-ware can block steam completely.

All these, at least, make it a far better option then SecuRom.
Finally, if your running Vista you already have so much "spy-ware" running on your system one more, whether Steam or SecuRom, will make little difference anyway, whether your worried about the hit on performance or spy-ware it's self.

Hi peeps.

The reason I don't like steam is because it gives me nothing. It is a very intrusive security system.

Seen some comments. Loved RTW, MTW2 was very poor.

I love this game CA but you are taking us for granted. Not only with Steam and the "Special forces" but that pamphlet you called a manual.

Next time I might wait until it comes on budget. Well I won't but some might.

Notwithstanding the above this game is brilliant.

Lets not forget the benefits of steam for mp that opens new horizons for SP only players too.

Iv been reading user reviews for a while now on ETW. Iv decided not to buy the game, not only does ETW appear to have massive bugs, but I have privacyphobia (I am extremely private, dont ask me why) and STEAM would bug the crap out of me.

I'm not a fan of invasive DRM software in any way (there are several games i havent bought purely because of the DRM technology theyve used), yet i really dont have any problem whatsoever with STEAM (once it got patched to the point that it works correctly). It's not invasive (note that steam can be configured to NOT RUN AT ALL on your computer unless you manually fire it up when you want to play a game), it's not spyware (does anyone have any kind of proof of this?) and it doesnt create any performance penalty (it possibly might have in the early days, but it doesnt on any system i've seen in the last 3 years). I'd much rather have steam than securom any day.

Here's what steam DOES give you. Quick and regular patches. And more of them. It streamlines the patching process and makes it cheaper. There have been four patches released already - more than we ever got in total for M2TW. The only people who have a legitimate problem with STEAM are those who it doesnt work for - it's not 100% bug free even now, so there are some people out there who can't play the game they paid for. But some people wouldnt have been able to play anyway due to invasive DRM on a standalone DVD release.

I'm all in favour of being in total control of what's running on my computer, but being paranoid about STEAM violating your precious data privacy when the operating system you've installed it on is microsoft goddamned windows is... beyond ridiculous. :rolleyes: :grin:

Whine bitch moan complain!!! complain bitch bitch moan whine bitch whine whine moan!

OK that is my moaning whining and complaining out of the way now a few points:

1. I have seen complaints about hardware incompatibilities. How many different variants of PS3 or Xbox hardware are there?? 1 maybe 2 but the core is the same. How many different varieties of PC are there? conservatively, I would suspect 2000-3000 if you include custom built equipment. Now, as an engineer of both hardware and software, I know how hard it is to write something to work of 10 different varieties without fault first time. 2000? not a hope!
2. Tell me, has anyone even noticed steam doing a patch for your game? I havent I have only found out by checking the logs. Cool, seamless upgrades without them bugging me. On the flip side Rockstar's "social club" fails to upgrade GTA4 and I have to manually upgrade the software even with the ability in the software.
3. I dispute the fact that this software is "full of bugs" I have had a couple of minor faults but it works well apart from that, and I know I am not the only one.

I think I am going to change my name to "Threadkiller" It seems that every time I post in a forum I kill the thread!

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Originally Posted by Daveybaby

There have been four patches released already - more than we ever got in total for M2TW.

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But none of these four patches appear to be significant. Nothing fixes the real problems: (1) AI cannot transport troops; (2) AI stupid diplomacy; (3) CTD when switching from campaign to battle map.

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But none of these four patches appear to be significant. Nothing fixes the real problems: (1) AI cannot transport troops; (2) AI stupid diplomacy; (3) CTD when switching from campaign to battle map

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Uh... So? These are not trivial problems - is steam supposed to help with fixing these bugs?

The entire point is, with steam, once a given issue is fixed, we will get the fix sooner, rather than having to wait months and months for ALL (or actually just most) of the bugs to be rolled up into one big super patch which is all that the budget will allow for (due to the long and expensive patch QA and release cycle we used to have). And once these big bugs are fixed there is more chance that support will continue, and we might continue to get smaller fixes and AI tweaks for much longer, because it's not a long and expensive chore to release a patch.