Not flaming Ca

[gollum]

Hello MikeV,
that paragraph you quoted was taken out of context - it was a reply to someone elses post that has nothing to do with what you post here.

Out of curiosity since when did you started playing TW and did you play mp as well as sp?

[MikeV]

It's a sad state of affairs when you can guess the kind of score a game will get in major publications the moment it is announced but trust me, you can. I've been doing it for years.

A bit off-topic, but I've noticed the same things with movies from Hollywood: the more advertising near the release date, the more of a dog they're pushing. Since game companies are consciously imitating Hollywood (why ?!?! ), the inverse correlation you note is probably to be expected.

Nowadays, I don't buy anything Hollywood is selling. Will the same become true of game software?

[MikeV]

For many of us Steam seems to be ok because it allows such quick updates.

The down side is you have to have them and you can’t go back if the fix causes some other problem to crop up.

Well, I think the decision to use Steam for "quick" updates to buggy software is deeply flawed (I can buy the MP justification, but imitating Micro$oft's lousy practice is Not Good). To date, they're not turning around the bug fixes any faster than the olde way.

I really, Really, REALLY hate the loss of control over patching this software. It needs to be under my control when to apply the patch, and I need to be able to undo/redo if it doesn't take (or makes things worse). I don't dare let Steam go into Online mode for the former reason, but I have no recourse for the latter (other than to wait for some other brave souls to try the new patch and let me know it's OK to proceed).

[MikeV]

It has been that way since computers started, the only difference now is the Net allows companies to release software with more bugs in it. On the other hand, a game (or any software of this magnitude) would probably not even have been attempted without that allowance. There is not a single piece of software available any ware that is "bug-free." such a thing dose not exist, and if you think it dose you simply have not found the bugs yet. The best you can hope for with any piece of software is continued support and patches.

Your assertion is plausible for the old-fashioned, 20th Century, way of developing and publishing software. The critical issue is that there is not enough time and talent to work out all the (significant) bugs before release, and the folks are needed for the next project after the release.

However, the modern approach is to get as many eyeballs as possible on the code, and to spread the workload of finding and exterminating the bugs over as large a population as possible. Dare I say "open source"? A revolutionary notion, indeed -- 'way beyond simple modding via data changes.

[gollum]

Dear me, gotta be careful what we post - dont wanna end up with the lions or something...

[antisocialmunky]

Your assertion is plausible for the old-fashioned, 20th Century, way of developing and publishing software. The critical issue is that there is not enough time and talent to work out all the (significant) bugs before release, and the folks are needed for the next project after the release.

However, the modern approach is to get as many eyeballs as possible on the code, and to spread the workload of finding and exterminating the bugs over as large a population as possible. Dare I say "open source"? A revolutionary notion, indeed -- 'way beyond simple modding via data changes.

Silly hippie, this is a comercial product.

What do you think open betas are for anyways? CA really should release one for the next game seriously, they should have learned by now that they can't stamp out all the bugs in house.

[CavalryCmdr]

I concede that CA's past 2 releases (E:TW and M2) have seemed more of an "open beta" then a "commercial product."
Personally I don't mind, even an open beta would not track down so many bugs this quickly. So M2 was not a "finished product" until about 4 months after it was released (patch 1.2) but after that patch it turned out to be one pretty awesome game, IMO, and pretty darn fun to mod if I was bored of playing. For myself I have no problem going through the same thing again, so long as I get the same results, indeed that's why I bought the game the day it hit the shelves instead of waiting a couple months or reading "real" reviews. I also must say that E:TW is far more like a finished product then M2 was, so to me that's a step in the right direction.

[Durallan]

Actually I think an open beta would probably fix most of the bugs, definetly those campaign stopping fleet clicking CTD ones! and those are the ones that make ETW an expensive coaster as well for now. and as far as I remember, I really don't remember Medieval 2 total war being this bad at the start, I could be wrong, but I don't remember having this kind of game stopping crashing bug which would end the game completely, I could be wrong, I mostly remember the bugs that ended battles that you were almost done with and won, more than campaign ending show stopping bugs.

I love the potential for ETW and I am glad that CA will fix these bugs eventually, but right now... I'm not overly impressed, I don't mind the bugs that are probably my fault, but those CTD's are just something you think they might have been able to pick up earlier...

[Vuk]

I for one refuse to put STEAM on my computer. I had to buy a crappy $800 laptop for travelling (just so my good one would not be damaged), so I bought ETW and installed it on that. It is playable, but barely. I cannot install it on my beast gaming rig though, because I do not want STEAM on it. Now I am restricted to horrible performance and will never be able to enjoy the good graphics. The Special Forces Edition was just a way to milk the fans. I think SEGA needs a kick in the butt to be honest. These two things, as well as rushing the game out are my big complaints. I find the campaign fun (minus enormous load times, which on my laptop can be over 10 minutes - no exagerration), but the battles are ridiculous. The AI sends its crappy cavalry out at me way ahead of its other forces, lets me wipe it out in a volley, then splits its men into wacky and illogical groups and moves one unit forward a step, then the next unit forward a step, etc. So it ends up taking the 10 darned years to finally reach me (so as you can guess I have been doing all the attacking, even in defense battles :P). The will put thier men in front of cover instead of behind it, so I just march a group of line infantry up behind them and wipe em out. :P Got quite a few other battlefield gripes, but suffice it to say, that I loath fighting my own battles now. :P The campaign map is still fun though. (though also bugged :P) I have a feeling that most of these issues would not be in the game if SEGA had not rushed development so that CA is working like frantic to finish the game a month after release. Let's put it like this, I got no problem with CA (except their historical inaccuracy, but I forgave them for 90% of that when I saw quotes from Edward Gibbon in the game ), but I really think they need a new publisher.

[Durallan]

why won't you put steam on your gaming beast?

[Lord of the Isles]

why won't you put steam on your gaming beast?

I can't answer for Vuk of course, but I know why I was reluctant to put it on mine, though I have. For me it boils down to preferring to manage my own games, file system and software. I'd mind less much if I felt that Steam were actually competent (I didn't mind so much putting Stardock Central and Impact on it, though Impact did cause me some worries when it first appeared and didn't work very well). How can I be confident in letting Steam manage parts of my machine when they do such a poor job at times of managing their own product?

[gollum]

Originally posted by CavalryCmdr
I concede that CA's past 2 releases (E:TW and M2) have seemed more of an "open beta" then a "commercial product."

Me too, only RTW was an open Alpha

[gollum]

Originally posted by Vuk
I for one refuse to put STEAM on my computer.

Yes you refused to installed it because you did so in the custom bought laptop for ETW - talk about model boycotting

[Quickening]

Steams alright. I'd rather not have it but it's certainly not on the level of Securicom.

[Lord of the Isles]

Steams alright. I'd rather not have it but it's certainly not on the level of Securicom.

SecuROM. Yes, I agree. Or even worse, Starforce.

It isn't that Steam is awful, just that it is frustrating. Most of the issues I have with it are only little things but ones that wouldn't be difficult for them to do better.

[Melvish]

Silly hippie, this is a comercial product.

What do you think open betas are for anyways? CA really should release one for the next game seriously, they should have learned by now that they can't stamp out all the bugs in house.

I think you should document yourself a bit before throwing "pseudo insult"
Agile Unified Process
Agile software development
Who's Your Coding Buddy?
Real Ultimate Programming Power

Open Source approach had a great influence over the programming techniques in the last 10 years.

It look like Steam has a perverted negative influance over patch deployment for ETW. Yes it's easy to deploy patch but since it so easy to deploy, it look like less quality control was done. That would make a great Dilbert cartoon

[The_Reckoning]

@Vuk

Why the hell don't you want Steam? It's a brilliant program. Do you realise how many games are only sold over it now?

If it were flawed in any way then don't you think there'd be a massive amount of complaints?

[A Very Super Market]

Please, don't start that. Vuk can choose whatever opinion he wants on steam, as can anybody else. There is no "enlightenment" in a debate on steam, so you could say it is a pointless endeavour.

[MikeV]

Hello MikeV,
that paragraph you quoted was taken out of context - it was a reply to someone elses post that has nothing to do with what you post here.

Point taken, sorry.

Out of curiosity since when did you started playing TW and did you play mp as well as sp?

I started with the original Shogun, and have tried every version and expansion since (except Alexander). I modded my copies of R:TW and M2:TW to do AORs and building trees more to my liking.

I've only ever used SP mode, and spent the vast majority of my time on the strat map. I've never enjoyed FPSs, MMO frag fests, or any of that sort of stuff. Chalk it up to being a 3-decade grognard, I guess.

[MikeV]

I really, Really, REALLY hate the loss of control over patching this software. It needs to be under my control when to apply the patch, and I need to be able to undo/redo if it doesn't take (or makes things worse). I don't dare let Steam go into Online mode for the former reason, but I have no recourse for the latter (other than to wait for some other brave souls to try the new patch and let me know it's OK to proceed).

OK, I found a solution for this one. First, it's possible to set an option in the Steam client and ask it not to automatically patch the app (which, for some reason, it ignores/resets). Second, the Steam client has a "Back up game files" option that, for E:TW, with create either 14 CD images or 2 DVD images. Presumably, if the patch scrogs your system, you can roll back. A bit of a bludgeon, but workable.

[MikeV]

Open Source approach had a great influence over the programming techniques in the last 10 years.

It look like Steam has a perverted negative influance over patch deployment for ETW. Yes it's easy to deploy patch but since it so easy to deploy, it look like less quality control was done. That would make a great Dilbert cartoon

Good point!

I doubt we'll ever see this code open-sourced, unless it's about to become abandonware. And, I'm not sure it's in any shape to be refactored easily. Given some of the chronic bugs that have lingered since R:TW, I'm not optimistic.

[Vuk]

@Vuk

Why the hell don't you want Steam? It's a brilliant program. Do you realise how many games are only sold over it now?

If it were flawed in any way then don't you think there'd be a massive amount of complaints?

Why aren't there massive amounts of complaints? Last time I looked there were. :P I have gotten into quite a few debates on quite a few forums since STEAM was announced with Half-Life 2 (one of the games I was looking forward to most in gaming history, but have not and will not buy because of STEAM). I have presented lots of data about it to very STEAM savvy people on the Half-Life 2 boards to explain why no one should support the spyware, but everyone wants convinience. :P I installed it on my traveltop to play ETW, but it will not go on any of the 4 other computers. Also, I find it an inconvienence to have STEAM manage everything for me, and it limits the amount of things you can go in there and mess around with. :P Not to mention it takes a hit on performance.
Market is right though, it is pointless to argue, and I am not gonna get into a debate about it here. Suffice it to say that this is the only STEAM powered game I am buying, and STEAM is not going any farther than this laptop. Also, true to my promise years ago, I have not bought Half-life 2 (even though it is very tempting), and will not.

[gollum]

Thanks MikeV

[CavalryCmdr]

To start I am NOT a fan of Steam, however there are a few points about it that I'd like to point out.

1, steam installs only with your consent.
2, Steam can be removed from your system.
3, Steam has an offline option that will stop it from uploading anything (note this dose not stop it's spy-ware capabilities!)
4, A third party (ie. not Microsoft affiliated) firewall with anti-spy-ware can block steam completely.

All these, at least, make it a far better option then SecuRom.
Finally, if your running Vista you already have so much "spy-ware" running on your system one more, whether Steam or SecuRom, will make little difference anyway, whether your worried about the hit on performance or spy-ware it's self.

[gellis23]

Hi peeps.

The reason I don't like steam is because it gives me nothing. It is a very intrusive security system.

Seen some comments. Loved RTW, MTW2 was very poor.

I love this game CA but you are taking us for granted. Not only with Steam and the "Special forces" but that pamphlet you called a manual.

Next time I might wait until it comes on budget. Well I won't but some might.

Notwithstanding the above this game is brilliant.

[gollum]

Lets not forget the benefits of steam for mp that opens new horizons for SP only players too.

[Mooks]

Iv been reading user reviews for a while now on ETW. Iv decided not to buy the game, not only does ETW appear to have massive bugs, but I have privacyphobia (I am extremely private, dont ask me why) and STEAM would bug the crap out of me.

[Daveybaby]

I'm not a fan of invasive DRM software in any way (there are several games i havent bought purely because of the DRM technology theyve used), yet i really dont have any problem whatsoever with STEAM (once it got patched to the point that it works correctly). It's not invasive (note that steam can be configured to NOT RUN AT ALL on your computer unless you manually fire it up when you want to play a game), it's not spyware (does anyone have any kind of proof of this?) and it doesnt create any performance penalty (it possibly might have in the early days, but it doesnt on any system i've seen in the last 3 years). I'd much rather have steam than securom any day.

Here's what steam DOES give you. Quick and regular patches. And more of them. It streamlines the patching process and makes it cheaper. There have been four patches released already - more than we ever got in total for M2TW. The only people who have a legitimate problem with STEAM are those who it doesnt work for - it's not 100% bug free even now, so there are some people out there who can't play the game they paid for. But some people wouldnt have been able to play anyway due to invasive DRM on a standalone DVD release.

I'm all in favour of being in total control of what's running on my computer, but being paranoid about STEAM violating your precious data privacy when the operating system you've installed it on is microsoft goddamned windows is... beyond ridiculous.

[Gargravarr]

Whine bitch moan complain!!! complain bitch bitch moan whine bitch whine whine moan!

OK that is my moaning whining and complaining out of the way now a few points:

1. I have seen complaints about hardware incompatibilities. How many different variants of PS3 or Xbox hardware are there?? 1 maybe 2 but the core is the same. How many different varieties of PC are there? conservatively, I would suspect 2000-3000 if you include custom built equipment. Now, as an engineer of both hardware and software, I know how hard it is to write something to work of 10 different varieties without fault first time. 2000? not a hope!
2. Tell me, has anyone even noticed steam doing a patch for your game? I havent I have only found out by checking the logs. Cool, seamless upgrades without them bugging me. On the flip side Rockstar's "social club" fails to upgrade GTA4 and I have to manually upgrade the software even with the ability in the software.
3. I dispute the fact that this software is "full of bugs" I have had a couple of minor faults but it works well apart from that, and I know I am not the only one.

[Gargravarr]

I think I am going to change my name to "Threadkiller" It seems that every time I post in a forum I kill the thread!