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Playing as the Ottomans last night I finally got the hang of using Grenadiers.
It gave me great joy to see the well placed grandes decimate a company of line infantry.
Back these up with the Turkish hand mortar and finally the Ottomans have some teeth!
I've found them to be excellent to dislodge an enemy from behind stone walls. Usually causes an insta-route.Quote:
Originally Posted by Konig Prasatko
They can also be placed behind a wooden fort wall during a defensive siege battle. Their grenades have just enough range to shatter enemy units throwing up grappling hooks. After they run out of grenades they are useful for counter-melee.
Good tip as I have found my cannon and muskets are almost usless in a fort!Quote:
Originally Posted by Miracle
If you auto-calc most of the time, grenadiers give you a great boost. It seems the auto-calc routines value a grenadier unit at 1.5x or 2x line inf. Forces me to fight a battle manually when someone attacks me with stacks that have a lot of grenadiers (Sweden must die!).
Is the most effective use of grenadiers to run up and throw grenades once the lines have started exchaning fire?
I tried to hide my grenadiers on the flanks and throw grenades as the enemy advanced the last distance but all the grenades explode harmlessly behind the enemy. Should wait until the enemy is stationary, yeah?
They're also good for dealing with enemy units garrisoned in buildings. Chuck 1-3 grenades in there and the unit will break and evacuate the building without the need to charge in and melee them.
Is that 1.5x or 2x per unit or per man? Because grenadier units are .5x the size of line units...Quote:
Originally Posted by anweRU
Per unit. A grenadier unit will defeat a line inf. unit in auto-calc.
To be honest i've never found much use for them. When i pit them against a unit of line infantry or militia, sure their grenades do a fair bit of damage, but a volley from the enemy unit usually reduces their numbers by 50% because the unit is tiny.
Perhaps i'll keep them in reserve and only use them where there is an opportunity to throw the grenades but keep out of combat. I won't need to use them for dislodging enemy units from buildings, i have mobile 12-pounder foot artillery in my army for that.
I haven't been satisfied with them in manual battles as well, though they do seem to dish out a lot of damage in melee. I prefer line inf. though.
They are great for auto-calc battles, as I wrote above.
Support unit, innit. 'ave your line infantry tally ho up and get all frisky with them fellas in the doolally pants like, aight? Then when the mish-mash is all a-thunder, hurl in a couple units of the bang-bang troupe onto an *already engaged* unit. Cripes Son, bajesus, you've just whacked a bloody great hole in thier line, strike me bloody pants to me knees. Thrust, strap on, we're going in - whatever way we can? Cool.
Yeah, if you have enemy infantry pinned down in a firefight with one of your infantry lines, you can really shred them if you can get a grenadier unit over to their flank and hurl grenades at them. Just make sure your grenadiers don't end up in the firefight. It can be hard because they're not exceptionally fast movers, and if the direction of the infantry firefight changes you can have a bad friendly fire situation. But between the infantry firefight and getting shredded by grenades, even a high-quality enemy unit can rout pretty quickly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead Guy
Also, the improved grenades tech does seem to make a difference. Using a full 60-man grenadier unit, I've seen casualty rates as high as 20 enemy men after one volley of grenades as soon as they're within range, once you have the improved grenades.
I love grenadiers. In fact, they are the only units I give specific names to. So my line infantry units are named the 1st Royal regiment ect. my grenadiers are named after the commanding General, things like Frommels Grenadiers and Grenadiers vonSchilben. But only once they get a chevron do they get a name.
While their small units size is a detriment they more than make up for it with shooting accuracy, grenades and in meele.
They also have longer range than regular line infantry. For that reason, and their fewer numbers, I never have the Grenadiers in the front line. I use them as a reserve force and initially place them BEHIND the front line units. In this role I'll also stretch the Grens to 2 ranks, or 30 men wide. With their longer range, if you place them behind the line infantry, your initial volley will be 2x as strong!
Let the line infantry act as meat shields, drawing the attention and attacks of the enemy, and once the enemy units have engaged your line infantry, THEN move you Grenadiers in to do special stuff.
@ Servius: Are you using your grenadiers to execute your own line infantry? It seems you should be suffering from a lot of friendly fire, courtesy of E:TW's abyssmal targeting routines.
They are excellent support-units. I usually leave them in a compact formation behind the lights and line to be able to rapidly maneuver them where they are needed. Or to dash forward in a shallow 2-line formation and to throw the grenades against a standing line unit. With the improved grenade tech they can devastate enemy troop concentrations. As as said before they are especially useful against sheltered enemy units.
Does it bother anyone that you can't set them to throw grenades only but have to select the grenades for each volley. It would be easier if they could just remain in the grenade mode.
How realistic is the use of grenadiers as grenade-throwers? Didn't they quickly develop into "the big guys" who were used as shock melee troops rather than grenade-throwing (and just kept the name)?
It can be inconvenient, but if I could have them stay in grenade mode, I could see myself forgetting about them to deal with something else in the battle, and then they end up having to stay too close to enemy troops in order to stay in grenade range, which risks friendly fire.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarquinius
Anyone else hate fighting against hand mortars?
Well i just used grenadiers and they're absolute crap. I'm Prussia and was fighting against Austrian line infantry, a single unit with no experience, mine had no experience. Battle difficulty on medium.
I had a unit of Austrian line infantry march through a small part of the town on its own and i sent a unit of my own line infantry against it with my grenadiers marching by their side. My line infantry unloaded a volley from each rank and my grenadiers threw a volley of grenades. Out of 150 soldiers in the Austrian unit, 126 were remaining after 3 volleys (fire by rank) from my line infantry and a volley of grenades.
They then unloaded a volley into my line infantry, they didn't have fire by rank so just 1 volley, and i charged them with my line infantry. We both had ring bayonets. They destroyed my line infantry, which is crazy considering Prussian line infantry's stats are majorly superior to theirs. I then threw my Grenadiers into the melee, who also took heavy casualties but did manage to route the single unit of Austrian line infantry.
I also tried using a second unit of fresh grenadiers to throw grenades into an Austrian building garrisoned by a unit of line infantry. 60 grenadiers threw grenades, some went into the building, some bounced off and landed at the grenadiers feet. The grenades exploded and killed 2 Austrian soldiers, and 6 of my grenadiers.
It was during this battle i decided i will never bother to recruit or use them again, unless a patch does something to change them.
Change your battle difficulty to medium?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dayve
Grenadiers are very specialist troops. I use them for shock actions like flanking or storming a fort. Their small unit size and better stats make them useful point assault troops for scaling a wall or storming a heavily defended gate. Their grenades make for useful shock action - toss and charge - on a pinned unit's flank. They won the battles of Vienna and Gdansk for me, the first against the Austrians, second against the Prussians.
Essentially, they're more versatile, but slower moving cavalry units for me. I keep them on the wings or as a reserve.
It was on medium, i said on the second line of my post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marquis of Roland
I generally have them parked right behind my main body of line infantry. If I have eight units of line infantry, I will have 3-4 units of grenadiers right behind them. I wait for both lines to fire and time my orders. When I know that crossfire is no longer a danger, I'll send my grenadiers straight through my own lines to toss grenades at the enemy. A good hit will usually mean that 15-20 casualties will be sustained by each enemy unit. The opponent will either have to move their units to minimize the impact of my grenades, delaying their reloading progress, or leave their lines where they are. Usually, if I land good hits with my grenadiers, I'll send them off into melee, since they will already be close to the enemy, which will either be moving away with their backs turned, or being severely reduced in number by grenades. Man for man, a grenadier will beat a line infantriman. So, if I should send my grenadiers forward into melee, I'll also have my line infantry wheel around and take the rear or flank, joining the melee.
As mentioned before, grenadiers are perfect for assaulting walls or taking garrisoned buildings, either by throwing grenades or storming the structure. They are attack specialists. I think of them as first-generation Sturmtruppen.
Used correctly, these guys can change the course of battle in seconds. Toss and charge into the flanks and you have screaming infantry running for the hills..
I've never read or studied warfare from this period in history, but is throwing grenades into the flank of an enemy unit whilst one of your own is engaged with it not just a tad unrealistic?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wandarah
What he said.
It's fiddly, it requires micro-managing, but it's vast amounts of fun.
It even works online -- whilst three or more units of enemy line infantry (though it makes me happiest to do it to someone's guard units) are busy adjusting the perfect field of fire, smash into him with a unit you do not mind losing that you know will lose out hand to hand. Then whilst their busy dealing with the suicide squad run the grenadiers up & get them to unleash.
I usually lose half the grenadier unit to incoming, but the resulting vast cloud of smoke & pile of dead bodies where my opponent's line used to be rather makes up for it, I feel.
I love grenadiers.
That is all :bow:
I use them as spacers between my artillery .Quote:
Originally Posted by Dayve
My developed battery goes puckle gun centre , grenadiers either side , filed guns either side of those and line infantry arranged so the battery is in a slightly refused centre .
Behind this forward battery is a unit of guards or ordinary line infantry and then a howitzer battery . When the enemy charge it {A.I. almost can't resist} the guards and grnadiers move forward {put them in a line pre battle and group then once the battle starts , place them where you want in the line . When enemy charges just drag as a group and the should form up smoothly without getting mixed up} and they are almost sure to win a melee together .
Meh - it works. I never studied the history of the period either, but from every account I've heard and tried out, standing around trading musket volleys under cannon fire results in excessive casualties. It's fine when I'm holding the line, but I prefer a little more elan on my offensives. Mostly because the AI is so damn stupid anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dayve
I find Grenadiers completely useless for my own use. The AI is more uncaringly suicidal and reckless, so it can annoy me with them, but they're still not truly effective. An army with a unit of grenadiers is an army that's short of a unit of howitzers.
on VH battle difficulty, i found that grenadiers were the only troops that even had a chance against enemy line infantry. To maximize casualties, wait till the enemy are bunched up, and exchanging fire with another of your units. you can easily cause massive casualties amongst the bad guys by charging up to nade range and letting loose some volleys back to back. grenadiers seem to die a little slower than regular line infantry as well. Not to mention they don't run away so easily.
IMO anyone that thinks grenadiers don't work are simply using them incorrectly. The battles I was using them in (and losing), the tall boys were inflicting 100+ casualties per 60 man unit, almost exclusively from grenades.
They also do a marvelous job with units behind stone walls. I tend to mass four of them per stack and use them en masse either to punch a hole in enemy Line Infantry with melee charge or use their grenades.
Yes it is quite period. Read up on the Ottoman assault on Malta. The Knights of St. John used grenades (and a lot more stuff thrown from the battlements) to fend off the Turks for three months. 700 knights won over some 30,000 turks with large assault guns.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dayve
Yes Grenadiers did evolve into just big hulking troops but for a long time they did use a lot of grenades just like we use them in the game.