Why Homeschool? Because School Officials Argue They Can Cavity-Search Young Girls

Yup, the lawyer for the school district in Safford, Arizona that strip-searched (IE, requiring her to take off or move aside all of her clothing) a 13 year old girl because they suspected she might have a legal painkiller pill on her person, has said:

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Matthew W. Wright, representing the school district, said that intimate searches should be allowed even for the most common over-the-counter drugs.
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Mr. Wright did draw the line at searches of students’ body cavities, but only on the practical ground that school officials are not trained to conduct such searches. Mr. Wright said there was no legal obstacle to such a search.

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http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/22/us....html?_r=1&hpw

Of course, all the justices quoted were pathetic. Perhaps the worst example;

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“My thought process,” Justice Souter said, “is I would rather have the kid embarrassed by a strip search, if we can’t find anything short of that, than to have some other kids dead because the stuff is distributed at lunchtime and things go awry.”

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Because it's embarrassment that's the important factor here, not the right to privacy or the fourth amendment!!! And the student wasn't breaking a law - just @($#^(*@$&(*@ school policy! :wall::wall:

CR

just @($#^(*@$&(*@ school policy!

Im going to second CR for once here, I would struggle to support cavity or strip searches with even the biggest suspicions.... but for a legal pain killer... no frickin way this is way OTT

This is unbelievable. Ibuprofen is just quite a strong paracetamol, I have no idea why they would go to such lengths to find it.

Another question is, why would a student want to smuggle Ibuprofen into school?

I dunno, but I kind of think the main outrage is because she's a girl and not a boy.

As for the drugs, I'd rather them make sure the kids don't go deal OTC drugs and get high/end up dead like that. If searching is needed when there is reasonable suspicion that a student is involved, then by all means, yes. The search was not random afterall.

And they did only do a strip, not cavity search. What the lawyer was saying is moot anyway as that's his personal opinion, not what actually happened/policy.

Scalia's quotes were good, ie "would a black magic marker be contraband? I see that it is listed on your school's list"

Wright's response "yes, the children use them to huff"

Counsel believes that the 4th amendment should be curtailed if a child is carrying a black magic marker. The school's case is offensive.

I was surprised by the Court's latest ruling on warrantless vehicle searches, not only the ruling itself but the composition of the majority. Hopefully the sanity is contagious.

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Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff

Scalia's quotes were good, ie "would a black magic marker be contraband? I see that it is listed on your school's list"

Wright's response "yes, the children use them to huff"

Counsel believes that the 4th amendment should be curtailed if a child is carrying a black magic marker. The school's case is offensive.

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Scalia always gets a bad rap for being the 'crazy conservative', but, you know, you gotta hand it to the guy sometimes.

~:rolleyes:

CR, tell me this. Where exactly in the article did it say the school officials said they should be allowed to issue cavity searches?


*Not that this isn't pretty damn disturbing, just asking that you not make outlandish lies*

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Originally Posted by Shinseikhaan

~:rolleyes:

CR, tell me this. Where exactly in the article did it say the school officials said they should be allowed to issue cavity searches?


*Not that this isn't pretty damn disturbing, just asking that you not make outlandish lies*

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Um, right here:

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Mr. Wright did draw the line at searches of students’ body cavities, but only on the practical ground that school officials are not trained to conduct such searches. Mr. Wright said there was no legal obstacle to such a search.

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The implication being, of course, that if one school official did attend a weekend adult education course for cavity searching, they would have the legal right to cavity search a child for contraband (which includes legal drugs and black markers).

And this isn't the personal opinion of a lawyer but the arguments of a man representing the school district.

The problem is the district's and many court's view that kids in school have almost no rights.

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Another question is, why would a student want to smuggle Ibuprofen into school?

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It's against the rules for kids to have it, and any other drug, legal or not. The kids can't have aspirin. Which means I broke the rules a lot with my allergy medicine.

CR

Yes. The point is, he in fact drew the line. You are ignoring this basic fact. The title is intentionally inflammatory and I find that highly aggravating.

And you're ignoring the fact that kids HAVE no rights. They aren't adults. Sucks, I know, I was one two years ago. That's the way the law is, as of right now.

At my public high school I was stripped many times and then forced to shower with other men everyday. This went on for all 4 years.

Thank You CR for exposing the sham that is education, we should all hole up.

There were also minorties at my school. Who can I talk to about that?

If anyone, anywhere, at any time, for any reason, forces my daughter (I have two daughters, 11 & 13) to remove her clothes, I will respond with instant and unrestrained physical violence.

Period.

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

Um, right here:


The implication being, of course, that if one school official did attend a weekend adult education course for cavity searching, they would have the legal right to cavity search a child for contraband (which includes legal drugs and black markers).

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That's the implication the person who wrote the article is making.

I refuse to believe that a small-government conservative would use a sensationalist title to get a point across.

Although I am pretty disgusted by the fact they can get children to strip. :no:

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Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro

That's the implication the person who wrote the article is making.

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Mr. Wright did draw the line at searches of students’ body cavities, but only on the practical ground that school officials are not trained to conduct such searches. Mr. Wright said there was no legal obstacle to such a search.

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He said there was no legal obstacle to cavity searches. Sounds like he was arguing they could do them if they were trained to do so. The case was not triggered by a cavity search, but I've got to say that the title is factually accurate.

More directly on topic, I don't really think children enjoy all the rights and privileges of adults, but I think the parents should definitely be involved in the decision-making process for any searches like this. I think the school is out of line in doing it themselves.

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Originally Posted by Shinseikhaan

And you're ignoring the fact that kids HAVE no rights. They aren't adults. Sucks, I know, I was one two years ago. That's the way the law is, as of right now.

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The rights of minors are extremely limited. Schools are usually accorded a great deal of "in loco parentis" authority over students. It thus falls to the parents to choose.

If this became a norm here, then I as a parent would homeschool or parochial school my children. Only decent response.

This is one of the reasons I'm going to study to be a teacher.

School staff are of the belief that they have police authority over the kids. And not just prosecution - they're also the judge and jury. This is simply insane, why so many students put up with it I can't understand. They're young, inexperienced and simply afraid of authorities. There are some differences, but those with experience have way too much respect for authorities, and those with no respect for authorities are unable to make a decent case for themselves. I'm proud to say I never put up with any of the crap they threw at me.

Granted, that did get me thrown out of high school.... But at that time I had already decided I didn't want to continue studying that field, so whatever :clown:

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

He said there was no legal obstacle to cavity searches. Sounds like he was arguing they could do them if they were trained to do so. The case was not triggered by a cavity search, but I've got to say that the title is factually accurate.

More directly on topic, I don't really think children enjoy all the rights and privileges of adults, but I think the parents should definitely be involved in the decision-making process for any searches like this. I think the school is out of line in doing it themselves.

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"Mr. Wright, is there any legal obstacle to a cavity search?"
"No there is no legal obstacle to a cavity search"

It does not quote him as saying that the only reason they didn't perform a cavity search was because there was no one trained to do so. That may be true, but only the author of the article has said so.

The thread title is basically accurate then - the officials said they could, but they didn't.

I hope those upset by this stop paying the property taxes that support the public school boards - because if it's wrong for the school to strip search your child, shouldn't it be wrong to strip search the other children? Simply taking your child out of the equation isn't really a moral stand, is it? Consider those who can't afford to either homeschool or private school their children.

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The case is being watched closely, and not just because of its R-rated circumstances. It's pitting school district officials against teachers. The National School Boards Association, representing 14,000 school districts nationwide, doesn't want reasonable school disciplinary actions to be second-guessed with lawsuits. The National Education Association, representing 3.2 million educators, counters that strip-searches are so emotionally harmful that they must be limited sharply.

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They seem to think they have more leeway with strip searches than police. They acted on vague and uncorroborated allegations. Lawsuit time.

The first thing my school had better do is contact me, because on my way there I'll be contacting the police & my lawyer. This incident wasn't a life-threatening emergency so school officials can wait till they get parental permission. Instruct your child to refuse to submit to any strip search till you get there. Go to your next school board meeting and let them know your feelings on this issue. Demand clearcut procedures be enacted and that the parents will be part of the process in determining reasonable school disciplinary actions.

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a legal painkiller

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prescription-strength ibuprofen,
That changes the legality a bit doesn't it .

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And the student wasn't breaking a law - just @($#^(*@$&(*@ school policy!

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Actually no , she was breaking school policy but she was accused of breaking the law too
that Savana was currently concealing ibuprofen pills underneath her underpants for others’ oral consumption
supplying prescription drugs for others is a crime , so is obtaining proscription drugs under false pretences , just ask Rush Limbaugh:yes:

Starting at page 17 of the court transcript:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

JUSTICE SCALIA: Could I come back to your distinguishing a strip search from a cavity search. What would you require before you would allow a cavity search?

MR. WRIGHT: Nothing at all. A bright line rule. I would not allow it.

JUSTICE SCALIA: No cavity search in school, no matter what?

MR. WRIGHT: We're not even clinically trained to do that, Your Honor. I would submit that if a child has something stuffed up one of their cavities -- and I assume we mean private parts, the very private parts -- that the first thing to do would be to send them to the hospital. I mean, we just don't have that clinical training.JUSTICE SOUTER: Your basis -- your basis for saying that, I guess, is just sort of the practical one, we don't know how to do that type of thing. So far as the legal principle on the basis of which you justified this search, you could justify that search, too, couldn't you?

MR. WRIGHT: On the legal basis I could see that, Your Honor. I could see that result. But practically -

He admits there would be no legal impediment to cavity searches if the court decided in his favor. He says they would never be done though, listing the lack of proper training as a reason why.

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Originally Posted by Hosakawa Tito

They seem to think they have more leeway with strip searches than police. They acted on vague and uncorroborated allegations. Lawsuit time.

The first thing my school had better do is contact me, because on my way there I'll be contacting the police & my lawyer. This incident wasn't a life-threatening emergency so school officials can wait till they get parental permission. Instruct your child to refuse to submit to any strip search till you get there. Go to your next school board meeting and let them know your feelings on this issue. Demand clearcut procedures be enacted and that the parents will be part of the process in determining reasonable school disciplinary actions.

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You will find that by registering your child to attend that public school, you have given them the right to enforce all school-board approved policies (including such searches) in advance.

Your choice is to a) send your child to school under their rules, b) send your child to a different school under their rules, c) home school your child, or d) run for school board and work to change the rules.

A child's personal rights are REALLY limited.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

You will find that by registering your child to attend that public school, you have given them the right to enforce all school-board approved policies (including such searches) in advance.

Your choice is to a) send your child to school under their rules, b) send your child to a different school under their rules, c) home school your child, or d) run for school board and work to change the rules.

A child's personal rights are REALLY limited.

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B) isn't really a choice in the US- unless you mean coughing up for private school. For public schools, "choice" is a dirty word. You're legally required to submit to whatever rules they come up with or take on the sizeable cost of paying for your child's education independently.

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Actually no , she was breaking school policy but she was accused of breaking the law too

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So... They suspected her of breaking a crime. Who deals with crime again? That would be Mr. Police officer, certainly not some school inspector pedo.

Home schooling won't be an option much longer either. California, Massachusetts and a few of the other "usual suspects" are enacting laws that in order to home school, you have to have a valid teacher's certificate.

Just shut up and give us your kids...

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So... They suspected her of breaking a crime. Who deals with crime again? That would be Mr. Police officer, certainly not some school inspector pedo.

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Not really , a school can do certain things on its ground , some of them even have their own police over there to make such things easier .
So in this case if this school had its own little police then obviously there is a chance the police would be trained for cavity searches so no problem there with the bend over bashful we think you are illegally in possesion of substances with intent to supply .

Land of the free...

Aight?

Its not that I dislike Public Schools for lack of individual attention, but that such schools generally tend to be a breeding ground of distrust. I'm already a fairly paranoid individual, so I'll send my daughters to private school so that I'm actually in charge of my children's rights. Cavity search? No way in @#$%!*^& Hell, ever, not even at a Hospital, unless they both blood tested and UA'd them first and both came up positive for Narcotics. Not something ridiculous like Ibuprofin.

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Not really , a school can do certain things on its ground , some of them even have their own police over there to make such things easier .
So in this case if this school had its own little police then obviously there is a chance the police would be trained for cavity searches so no problem there with the bend over bashful we think you are illegally in possesion of substances with intent to supply .

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Are you just going for affect, or do you really think widespread body cavity searches on small children by a private police force is a good idea? :dizzy2:

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I'm already a fairly paranoid individual, so I'll send my daughters to private school so that I'm actually in charge of my children's rights.

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When you send your child to a private school they will also have lots and lots of rules you have to agree to , many parents would love choosing a school that had a really strict set of drug rules and a vigorous no nonsense application of those rules , but of course they wouldn't think that their little darling might become a victim of those rules .

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Land of the free...

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Shhhhh...don't burst their bubble

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

When you send your child to a private school they will also have lots and lots of rules you have to agree to , many parents would love choosing a school that had a really strict set of drug rules and a vigorous no nonsense application of those rules , but of course they wouldn't think that their little darling might become a victim of those rules .

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Zero tolerance coming back to bite them? Agreed. Most parents, when they see these laws envison some black thuglet who is giving the police lip, not there little blonde starlet hiding her advil. I guess this proves stupitidty can be hazardous! Now the question becomes do we save the hysterical idoits from themselves or let them repeat the performence?

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Shhhhh...don't burst their bubble

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Better than your islands piss poor drunken attempnt at Switzerland. ~;)

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Most parents, when they see these laws envison some black thuglet who is giving the police lip, not there little blonde starlet hiding her advil.

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I read that as anvil. :oops:

If Scalia, Ginsberg, Fox, NPR and the ACLU agree that schools have no right to do this, hell hath frozen over. I believe that the 4th amendment exists for a reason and that except at border and practical border areas authorities better have a warrant for all searches of this nature on anyone who doesn't give probable cause. Teachers are not appropriate authorities.

My kids will never be touched by anyone ever - under penalty of death.

Of course Breyer and Souter embarassed themselves in court on this issue as they embarass the nation daily.

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I beleive that the 4th amendment exists for a reason and that except at border and practical border areas authorities better have a warrant for all searches of this nature on anyone who doesn't give probable cause.

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Damn straight man , you tell em like it is .
errrrrr...hold on there , probable cause ?
would that be like being told that someone is alledgedly on the premesis with drugs that they are going to illegaly supply to others on the premesis?

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Better than your islands piss poor drunken attempnt at Switzerland.

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:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
That only really affects the idiots who swallowed the hype and couldn't see the inevitable result coming .:2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Damn straight man , you tell em like it is .
errrrrr...hold on there , probable cause ?
would that be like being told that someone is alledgedly on the premesis with drugs that they are going to illegaly supply to others on the premesis?

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probable_cause

They can call the police for actions like this. The funny thing is that the school just had a hunch. The even funnier thing is that they found nothing on the girl. There was no probable cause involved - a hunch doesn't satisfy the requirement and a peace officer didn't conduct the search.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

Are you just going for affect, or do you really think widespread body cavity searches on small children by a private police force is a good idea? :dizzy2:

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Is that a serious question? He's playing devils advocate. All affect, no substance, no exceptions.

What is the statistical likelihood of someone disagreeing with the majority 100% of the time?

I think we should save the outrage factor until the court has returned their descsion in a couple months? Nothing has happened yet, no one has given school officals the right to strip search. In fact the lower court has already ruled for the child. In all likelyhood the case will go to the child.

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Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff

Is that a serious question? He's playing devils advocate. All affect, no substance, no exceptions.

What is the statistical likelihood of someone disagreeing with the majority 100% of the time?

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Zero-tolerance means just that. You don't need probable cause. You and tribesman are both wrong.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Zero-tolerance means just that. You don't need probable cause. You and tribesman are both wrong.

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I didn't realize school codes were higher then the Constitution, interesting.

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

I didn't realize school codes were higher then the Constitution, interesting.

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We were flat out told "we don't need probable cause, ya'll are minors on (public) school grounds"

Zero tolerance policies are carte blanche to schools.

I'm not entering this debate, but anybody who does not have a full understanding of in loco parentis needs to take five minutes and read up. If we could all get clear on what the law actually is, I predict the quality of this discussion would skyrocket.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

We were flat out told "we don't need probable cause, ya'll are minors on (public) school grounds"

Zero tolerance policies are carte blanche to schools.

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Just because the schools say, "Zero tolerance, we have full powers now." Does not make it true. The fact that the lower court agreed with the girl proves it is not true, unless some unforeseen way of thinking emerges in the Supreme Court and they rule against the girl.

Sometimes I want to convince my Congressman and/or Senator to introduce a Constitutional Amendment that allows minors the rights given by the 1st and 4th Amendments. I tire of having Americans live about 1/5th of their life without rights.

EDIT: From Lemur's article:
Partly in reaction to free speech movements, other changes came as courts recognized that students at public colleges and universities were entitled to full enjoyment of their First and Fourth Amendment rights.

Yay! Now why is this strip search crap happening still?

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Yay! Now why is this strip search crap happening still?

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because it is a school not a college or university
if you are going to quote something make sure you read it :yes:

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They can call the police for actions like this. The funny thing is that the school just had a hunch. The even funnier thing is that they found nothing on the girl. There was no probable cause involved - a hunch doesn't satisfy the requirement and a peace officer didn't conduct the search.

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:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
School officials acting in their capacity are government officials , so they have use of both the probable cause thing and the addition of the locomotive parents .

So probable cause is a reduction of reasonable doubt , so it gives more leeway .But as this is a school then schools have even more leeway as they only have to have reasonable suspicion .
So you lose again Tuff as under all circumstances for school searches and sweeps the level defining what is unreasonable under your constitution has been set out .
So the question is did this search fit all the criteria set out in law covering these cicumstances ?
And the answer is yes .
Sad isn't it , but its only shocking for those who labour under the illusion that their countries revolution made them a country of great freedoms .

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Originally Posted by Lemur

I'm not entering this debate, but anybody who does not have a full understanding of in loco parentis needs to take five minutes and read up. If we could all get clear on what the law actually is, I predict the quality of this discussion would skyrocket.

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Any parent trying to force a stip-search of their child would be filed under child abuse here. And rightly so.

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

Yup, the lawyer for the school district in Safford, Arizona that strip-searched (IE, requiring her to take off or move aside all of her clothing) a 13 year old girl because they suspected she might have a legal painkiller pill on her person

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I dunno. Drugs are bad. There's a War on Drugs too.

I say use enhanced interrogation techniques to find out where these kids are hiding drugz. Waterboard 'em.


(or, there is so much wrong with this that I can't be bothered to write anything but some sarcastic commentary.)

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

because it is a school not a college or university
if you are going to quote something make sure you read it :yes:

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
School officials acting in their capacity are government officials , so they have use of both the probable cause thing and the addition of the locomotive parents .

So probable cause is a reduction of reasonable doubt , so it gives more leeway .But as this is a school then schools have even more leeway as they only have to have reasonable suspicion .
So you lose again Tuff as under all circumstances for school searches and sweeps the level defining what is unreasonable under your constitution has been set out .
So the question is did this search fit all the criteria set out in law covering these cicumstances ?
And the answer is yes .
Sad isn't it , but its only shocking for those who labour under the illusion that their countries revolution made them a country of great freedoms .

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Any government official has the right to conduct a strip search? Who gave teachers and other school officials the right to conduct strip searches?

You believe that it is cut-dry, but then why did the lower court find for the girl - most likely to be followed by the Supreme Court? The reality is that you don't have a clue either - you're just a cynic and contrarian. Again - insubstantial, all affect.

Teachers can not strip search children on mere suspicion. The concept of parental rights being conferred on teachers is nonsense and I've never seen it applied in any school that I've been in, Lemur. Teachers around here are sensible enough not to try it. They have certain rights on public school grounds to regulate property, but never childrens bodies. This seems to be the death knell for any remnants of the concept that a teacher is anything more to a child than an overpaid librarian.

The concept that some American citizens can have their consitutional rights abridged by government officials needs to end.

I agree Louis - as long as there is due process, waterboarded the crap out of kids...:sweatdrop:

(we need a better icon for waterboarding)

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The reality is that you don't have a clue either - you're just a cynic and contrarian. Again - insubstantial, all affect

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You really should follow your own links Tuff , its all set out there in both plain english and legal jargonese:yes:

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The concept of parental rights being conferred on teachers is nonsense and I've never seen it applied in any school that I've been in, Lemur.

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:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
its not nonsense, its a long established legal thingy .
Just because you havn't seen it doesn't mean its not there , two easy explanations for your not seeing it are firstly you simply didn't look , or secondly you did look but didn't have a clue what you were looking for .

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

You really should follow your own links Tuff , its all set out there in both plain english and legal jargonese:yes:


:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
its not nonsense, its a long established legal thingy .
Just because you havn't seen it doesn't mean its not there , two easy explanations for your not seeing it are firstly you simply didn't look , or secondly you did look but didn't have a clue what you were looking for .

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I see that they are able to search belongings in the link i've provided. Are you arguing that teachers become police officers when they have reasonable suspicion?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Jersey_v._T._L._O.

I agree with this case as well. Property is one thing. Nobody asked a girl to strip to her underwear and shake in this case. When people go to a museum or concert they have their bag checked without suspicion and I don't have a problem with that. If the guys at the museum believed that they could just strip search at leisure, they're wrong.

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I see that they are able to search belongings in the link i've provided. Are you arguing that teachers become police officers when they have reasonable suspicion?

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They don't have to become police officers , their position as teachers with charge of and responsibility for the students is enough .
As for reasonable suspicion , thats the clincher , if it had of been just a hunch as wolf suggested then there would be a problem , but it was demonstrated that a reasonable person (as defined by law) would have reasonable suspicion(as defined by law) so they covered there arse legally as tht is set out as a legal step above a hunch . Even when the initial information could be described as hearsay and as such have legal complications itself , it doesn't in this case as it has been ruled that in forming a reasonable suspicion hearsay is perfectly OK .

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When people go to a museum or concert they have their bag checked without suspicion and I don't have a problem with that. If the guys at the museum believed that they could just strip search at leisure, they're wrong.

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:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
What a strawman . who on earth suggested that people can just strip search at leisure .

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Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff

I see that they are able to search belongings in the link i've provided. Are you arguing that teachers become police officers when they have reasonable suspicion?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Jersey_v._T._L._O.

I agree with this case as well. Property is one thing. Nobody asked a girl to strip to her underwear and shake in this case. When people go to a museum or concert they have their bag checked without suspicion and I don't have a problem with that. If the guys at the museum believed that they could just strip search at leisure, they're wrong.

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The concept I referenced earlier and for which Lemur provided the excellent link above is what dominates here: in loco parentis. Under U.S. law and custom, schools are considered to be acting in place of the parents. If you give over your children to a public school, they DO have the right to conduct such searches pursuant to the rules established by the local school board (your representatives). Once the policy has been instituted, your placement of your child in the care of that school CONSTITUTES CONSENT TO THEIR POLICIES. You do not get to pick and choose. If you do not agree with those policies, school your child in some other manner.

Do I think that many of these zero tolerance policies/practices are bollox? YES.

Do I think that many of them should be changed? YES.

Do I think we'd be better served if we decriminalized all of this drug stuff and spent more energy focusing on education? **** Yes.

To the best of my knowledge, my county does NOT conduct such searches without proper authorities and/or parents present. If it starts, then I will either RAPIDLY get the policy changed by petition or I will move my children to a different school.

What he^^^ said. If you are a concerned parent, than find out what your school policy is. Attend a school board meeting and bring up the subject, get involved before this type of situation occurs.

Heh, if my "little angels" really screw up, they know their biggest worry won't be the school authorities, it'll be Mom & Dad.

Just one thing Seamus ...( nice post BTW , whoda thunk it was that easy to understand eh).... that decriminalising thing , as other legal drugs like beer and fags have age restrictions how would it have worked in this case as the individual was a minor ?

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Just one thing Seamus ...( nice post BTW , whoda thunk it was that easy to understand eh).... that decriminalising thing , as other legal drugs like beer and fags have age restrictions how would it have worked in this case as the individual was a minor ?

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Well, I suppose none of those things will be legalized for minors anytime this century, and nor will currently illegal drugs, even if all such are decriminalized for adults. So in some ways that takes us back to square one.

Schools will always have banned items/substances/modes of dress or some such.

PTA's and keeping your schoolboard honest are a necessary response.

The parents are the only ones who can do this as their children have little or no legal standing and are legally accorded the right to life and not a lot else in most places.

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Just one thing Seamus ...( nice post BTW , whoda thunk it was that easy to understand eh).... that decriminalising thing , as other legal drugs like beer and fags have age restrictions how would it have worked in this case as the individual was a minor ?

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Seamus, Lemur and Tribes. You do make it so simple to understand HOWEVER - why is it a case/which way do you believe that the court will find?

If the court finds that the search was innapropriate then your concept will be incorrect. Educators are not parents, nor are they peace officers. The right to search needs to have a limit and it does. I believe that limit should be shorter than a parent's or police officer's and I hope the court will find that it is. These people are strangers using legal technicalities to exert their power over children over trivial issues. We need clear rules and they should be consistent with the 4th amendment.

We extend amendments to all human citizens unless they require another amendment. At the time of the writing of the Constitution I'm sure parents would have had a problem with teachers stripping their children.

Ask yourself: what parent would strip search their own kids? If parents wouldn't, why would in loco parentis give anyone that right?

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HOWEVER - why is it a case/which way do you believe that the court will find?

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Why is it a case ? because there are always cases , millions of them .
How the court will find ? well what has so far been presented ticks all the boxes from previous cases , it appears to fit all the legal criteria , so the schools assistant principle and the two female school officials did nothing wrong .

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The right to search needs to have a limit and it does.

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Yes it needs a limit and it does have one , this case is well within those limits .

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These people are strangers using legal technicalities to exert their power over children over trivial issues.

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For staters allegations of illegaly supplying drugs to kids in school isn't a trivial matter , and they are not using legal technicalities .

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We need clear rules and they should be consistent with the 4th amendment.

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There are clear rules and they are consistant with the constitution .

I understand your concerns , anyone reading the opening post would go WTF thats outrageous , but then you actually look and should realise the opening is entirely misleading and the case itself is not what it is being presented as.

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

because it is a school not a college or university
if you are going to quote something make sure you read it :yes:

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1. You use too many smilies your posts.
2. It is absurd to say that higher public education allows for your rights to asserted and then say that those in lower public education have none.

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2. It is absurd to say that higher public education allows for your rights to asserted and then say that those in lower public education have none.

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:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
It is absurd that you don't understand that proxy parental rights given to teachers over minors in their charge are not the same when those minors become adults .
Besides which, no one said children do not have any rights so your whole line is complete bollox:yes:

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
It is absurd that you don't understand that proxy parental rights given to teachers over minors in their charge are not the same when those minors become adults .
Besides which, no one said children do not have any rights so your whole line is complete bollox:yes:

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The teachers are responsible for the education and safety of the students, nothing more. They have no override on their privacy.

The fact that the school decided that they could strip a girl down with just an accusation from someone to back them up shows that minors are treated as if they have no rights. I guess I can say some random guy in my class is carrying pills and he will be strip searched by the end of day as well. They should not have the ability to strip search her, lets have some perspective here for once. If they think she is carrying, they need to get the police, inform them of the situation and ask them to get a warrant or find some probable cause so they can strip search her after parental notification and if they can not get a warrant or probable cause then just send her home for the day to make sure the child can not cause harm to other students if she is guilty.

I just don't see how when a human being is over eighteen they have full rights over their educational institute, but until that second they turn eighteen, it is acceptable for random government paid workers to have full control of the student's body as if eighteen is the magical number when a human can fully appreciate his or her rights.

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The teachers are responsible for the education and safety of the students, nothing more.

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And safety of the students includes ensuring there are no drug dealers in the school .

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I just don't see how when a human being is over eighteen they have full rights over their educational institute

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:dizzy2: they don't have full rights , they just have more rights because legally they are an adult not a child so the parental bit is no longer valid
You really don't understand the topic at all do you .

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

And safety of the students includes ensuring there are no drug dealers in the school .

:dizzy2: they don't have full rights , they just have more rights because legally they are an adult not a child so the parental bit is no longer valid
You really don't understand the topic at all do you .

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That does not satisfy the requirements of being able to search willy nilly anywhere they want. We want to be safe from drugs being passed around in US schools, so they have the ability to put a cop in every class and a camera in every locker? You said there is a line earlier, where is this line in your opinion?

Idk, maybe it is because it is very late for me when i post on the org, maybe it is because I don't get enough sleep or maybe it is because the evil video games and T.V. are dumbing my brain down, but I thought the issue here was whether the school could do such a thing or not. If the kid has rights, then they should not had searched her, like wise, if the kid has no rights or is under the complete control of the school, then it is ok. I am just saying I think all humans should have full rights from the moment they are born.

And how does a citizen above the age of eighteen not have full rights? When do US citizens officially receive full rights?

EDIT: Darn it, I need to go to sleep, but I wanna see if Tribesman is going to reply......oh well, the pointless internet argument can wait until tomorrow....

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I wanna see if Tribesman is going to reply

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No .
or is that a yes saying no ?