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So, I have recently taken up making my own chainmail, which a very cool process and I will post screenies when Im done.
Heres my question, what design of anceint chainmail did the celts use? Did they use 4-1 or 8-1? also did they "rivet" their rings together or just clamped them shut? Can anyone post any links? I have found a few, but they are not very informative. Thanks
The RAT forum will help you with many questions about ancient warfare.
Perhaps this thread http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/vie...c+mail#p233734, third post, could give you some hints.
AFAIK the "universal" 4-1 linking and riveted rings were the "industry standard" - butted rings would have been far too vulnerable to strikes of the ubiquitous spear and javelin, while the metallurgical prequisites of punched, solid "washer" rings wouldn't be developed for another millenia and half or so.
I don't know about the Celts, but the Lorica Hamata was 4-to-1 and rivited. And IIRC the Hamata was developed from Celtic mail.
:2cents:
Good luck! Awesome idea. I've seen chain mail and it is amazingly heavy! Wowzers!
Yah, its starting to get nice and heavy.. here is what I have finished so far. Im comparing it to my arm. This is 5 hours of work... Sadly.
https://img17.imageshack.us/img17/44...2830753361.jpg
knitting a chainmail takes a while unfortunately. But it looks great so far! Good work!:2thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasiliyi
AFAIK there where also versions with one line of full rings and one line of riveted rings.
From my own experience, I can tell you making your own riveted chainmail is serious business
well, I made and wore one using those tiny binder rings from the office =P It made me impervious to ruler attacks.
where'd u get those rings? I'm tempted to make my own now...Hysteroi Pezhetairoi FTW!
Well I dont know where you are living, but I got mine from the LARP store in my town.
But you can surely find sth like this http://www.chainmailconnection.com/
in all larger countries.
I went to my local hardware store, and bought 2 sets of pliers, a large thick nail (a little thicker than 1/4 inch) and 200ft of 16 gauge galvanized steel.
I recomend buy some thin utility gloves for coiling the wire around the nail as that can hurt after a few times. Actually my entired right hand is sore from making it.
Oh, Sat, im making my own rings. perhaps ill make a quick tutorial and post it.
oh that would be appreciated =]
What does AFAIK mean?
As far as I know....AFAIK. :beam:Quote:
Originally Posted by the man with no name
You'd do better at ordering your own from mail makers. Go for riveted mail, because making mail yourself can be demanding in patience and time.
I was thinking myself about ordering a mail hauberk and a gambeson, just to experiment.
Looks more like ringmail, not chain, too big. :no:
I looked around and I found suits that cost $200 and up. Besides, making it is half the experience. If you read the last chapter of my aar, you would know what I mean.Quote:
Originally Posted by Christopher Burgoyne
Hmm, perhaps because i stretched it a bit. Oh well. I like it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
Anyways, I found the site that I used for making mine so if anyones interested. http://users.frii.com/dnorris/maillearmor.html
think you'll be interested in this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cqlm...eature=channel
How fat have you come? I want regular updates! :2thumbsup: :idea2::yes:
"Ringmail", AFAIK, is the kind of "proto-maille" where you attach separate metal rings to a fabric or leather base though...Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
Yeah, turns up around the Middle Ages AFAIK. Flat "washers" punched out of metal plate, joined with riveted links (for obvious reasons); apparently the Muslims at least liked to emboss the solid links with religious quotes while they were at it...Quote:
Originally Posted by ziegenpeter
Hmm if I remember right it were the romans who used it. From medieval timesI only know riveted CMs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
Oh, they got around to making it too ? Didn't know that; I've only read of it in Medieval contexts (Middle Eastern ones mostly, IIRC; the Euros started moving more towards solid plate).
CAn we see it now?
i'm actually making one myself, abit very very slowly...
now you gave me an idea about making my own :)
does anyone know of i site where i can see how to make a lorica hamata, or segmentata?
I'm making keltoi chain, the type the pezhetairoi and thorakitai would wear.
Here's some basic info: http://www.armatura.connectfree.co.u...eg/making1.htmQuote:
Originally Posted by Mediteran
It looks like you basically buy the strips and tie them together yourself. I suppose you'd save a bit of $$$ though.
I've seen some youtube stuff about making segmentata also.
For hamata, you could just do some chainmail, if you're not too picky. :beam: I mean, there can't be THAT much difference from one suit to another...
there is a definite difference between two suits. they were hand made, i guarantee one suit of Celtic mail would be better protection than a different suit.
Oh, well I haven't had to much time to work on it, but i have most of the Front done. Ill try to post a picture tomorow
Please do. It really looks awesome!
I assume, from what you previously posted, that this will end up looking like Celtic chainmail from EB, right? No sleeves, and a little "cape" at the back (the extra shoulder protection)? If so, that is so cool. :smash:
https://img38.imageshack.us/img38/59...6211326181.jpg
I layed it out over a shirt to show the general size of it. I still have much work left, and have been pretty busy, but this is what I have done.
EDIT: I know it looks fairly short, but if you hold it up it stretches a few more inches.
That is nice, man! Do you plan on adding that half-skirt part that protects the upper legs?
I haven't decided on that yet. That might be a later addition. This is what I plan it too look like.
https://img4.imageshack.us/img4/6836/arvernineitos.gif
By half-skirt, I meant the area of the chainmail below the belt, as shown in your pic. I can't wait to see how this turns out, bro.
Well then, there definitely be be a skirt. Its long enough, it just doesn't stretch when its layed down like that.
Well, I just got back into making my maille, and i want to warn you guys not to work on it all day. Having the flu and being bored is not a good excuse to make it all day. Your hands hurt really bad the next day.
Just a pointer, take a break.
Almost done, All I have left is the strip thats under my armpit. I stuffed a pillow in a shirt and then put the maille on.
https://img119.imageshack.us/img119/664/fullchain.jpg
A close up to what it looks like.
https://img31.imageshack.us/img31/82...ialcloseup.jpg
Its not that heavy. Id say its about 20 lbs. Im gonna weigh it one of these days.
My GOD!!, amazing job Vasiliyi:2thumbsup:
How many rings are in that would you say? Say....over 9000?
You gonna double-layer it?
Yes, let us talk about cataphracts instead.
They are shiny, and are on horses. Discuss.
i'm ashamed, though I make tinier rings, mine is only the size of a keyboard D=
That's sad avsm. If u actually got to see it and see what it feels like on your shoulders, u might actually chang your mind. That said, I don't think ill be double layering it. Too much work and twice as expensive. I did do kingsmaille on the shouldre pads to make them stronger. I still have atleast 10 hours of work to do though, but this is definatly better than before.
Whats the ID on your mail? 1/4?
Very nice looking maille.
I too spent countless hours a few months back making myself some Lorica Hamata. Only problem was about half way through I began researching a little more..big mistake. Found out that butted maille was basically non-existant in antiquity as it was largely ineffective in battle. The rings aren't sealed together and therefore break apart when they are struck, or even when moving.
Instead, at least for the romans, half of the rings were punched like a washer. The other half of the rings were riveted together. This made the maille virtually impossible to break.
So, craving historical accuracy I gave up on my half-done maille and won't be making another suit until I can purchase some plate metal. Of course then I need something to punch the rings out with..oh and I also need a hole puncher to punch the riveted rings..and need to make a riveter out of pliars...:wall:
Overall it should be worth it though, as most LARP groups purchase hand-made authentic maille over butted maille due to the nature of the sport for between 400$-800$.
very nice...indeed. Whenever you get to post pictures do it.
Side note..... what do you call chainmail made of paper clips?
I bought 50k paper clips from dollar tree to do a side project.. haha :D
Bah, i know its not authentic, im ok with that. The weight is similar, and so is the feel. I dont plan on using it in combat, if your asking that. Personally, the experience of making it has really taught me a lot and I think thats what counts. I might make another one some day, Roman style with rivets and washers, but thats far in the future.Quote:
Originally Posted by TruePraetorian
Thank you, perhaps you could call it Chain mail lite?Quote:
Originally Posted by teh1337tim
By ID you mean size of the rings, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Power2the1
Oh, sorry. I was referring to the interior diameter (also known as the ID of the rings). Its the average size of the ring once its butted or riveted.
Perhaps you and I can duel after we finish our battle readys :duel:Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasiliyi
Id say its a little more than 1/4 inch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Power2the1
I shall never turn down a duel, I accept.Quote:
Originally Posted by TruePraetorian
Just stumbled on this and saw the photki. Stunning work, Vasiliyi, stunning work. How skilled do you have to be? The amount of work is irrelevant, but skill is. I may be patient and relatively hardworking, but definitely not skilled with tools. I cannot help but wish I could do the same nevertheless.
Actually AP, the work is easy, its the amount of work that takes the toll on you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus
First off, you need to get a system down. Once you get the system of how you want to make everything and in what order, its pretty easy. Of course, I would not recommend linking the rings together for more than 2 hours in one sitting, unless you have massively strong hands. Im sure right now I could really hurt anyone's hands if I wanted to (by shaking hands as russians always do).
Anyways, ive kinda hit a lazy spot again, and quite frankly I dont have extra cash to buy more wire. I have enough to finish the sides I think, but Then I need to buy either leather or raw hide to decorate the maile, and then I have my semi-circle of a shoulder pad to do. Lots of work left.
Thanks for the compliment though.
From what I've read, chain-mail is more time-consuming than it is difficult. Is this true?
very, and a lot of patience (which i don't have enough of)
wires are quite cheap in where I'm from =/
I know I've made chains out of silver wire, which was already rather tedious "gruntwork" for the most part once you grasped the procedure. Iron has to be rather less cooperative a material, nevermind now that the number of links in a simple shirt runs in the thousands... :skull:
That depends how much fastfood he ate...Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovejoy
Well, after about 3 months of toiling over this project, im nearing the completion. Overall this project has probably cost me about $100 in wire $50 in tools and another $15 in leather. Its been fun and a great learning experience. Its definitely helped me pass by the AI turn during EB.:beam:
https://img26.imageshack.us/img26/59...8172159121.jpg
Anyways, ill post more pictures when im completely done as I plan to add leather padding to the shoulders for comfort, also I plan to add another set of chain to wrap around my shoulders.
Bah, my hair is too short to look like a celt, i tried to make my brother take the picture (hes got skater hair) but he refused.
And some pictorial evidence from 145 BCE, present day Sinai, back then it belonged to the Ptolemaic Kingdom.
https://i122.photobucket.com/albums/...45BCESidon.jpg
some chainmail armor, or in greek "Alysidotos thorax" IIRC, aka "chain armor" found in Macedonia.
https://i122.photobucket.com/albums/...reatMAIL-1.jpg
Tried sending you a PM, keravnos, but your inbox is full. Thanks a lot for the information.
Do you have any other information from the auction? These finds are sometimes published in auction catalogues and the like.
Quote:
Originally Posted by keravnos
and where would you purchase this? Oh and does anyone know a good informative website or book for celtic mail? I find it hard to find anything worth reading, as most of it just has a paragraph about it and then talks about the Romans.
My, my, what a hunk! A true Russian bogatyr' :2thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasiliyi
No kidding, you do look quite very handsome, much better than in your other photo.
You are right, there are quite a lot about Celts but not much on the mail they wore. Not to fear, heres a picture I have of mail from a votive deposit at Tiefenau (where, reportedly, around 100 two-handed swords were found)...Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasiliyi
https://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b...evotivedep.jpg
...the Ciumesti chainmail was apparently folded, rolled, and adorned with rosettes of bronze. I do not have a clear picture of this chainmail up close on my HD, so here it is in its, uh, crumpled glory...
https://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b...tedwithabr.jpg
...other depictions of Celtic mail can be found of the Pergamon Arch...
https://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b...2the1/mail.jpg
...the Vacheres statue. This could show a Gallic noble or a Gallic auxila...
https://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b...aGaulnoble.jpg
...this is a Gaul in what could be chainmail from Civita Alba...
https://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b...1/GEDC2724.jpg
...and the Kirkburn mail shirt, a reconstruction.
https://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b...nmail3-2nd.jpg
I hope this helps you see the possible styles, varieties, etc... that existed here and there in Celtica :yes:
I have a suit of mail myself, but I have not completed my Gallic warrior kit just yet. I promise I will post pics when I am done, though it will not be as good as Vasiliyi's chainmail progression pics. Great job, Vasiliyi, and I am envious that you have time to make your own suit from the beginning!
Haha thanks for the compliment, I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus
Quote:
Originally Posted by Power2the1
Excellent. Im looking forward to seeing your work of art. what kind of metal are you using? What size? How are you connecting your rings, are they riveted or butted?
Well, since you asked.....:happy2:
I ordered my suit butted, ID about 1/4, 16 gauge steel, and zinc coated so as to prevent rust for an extra long time. The zinc coating does make the armor a bit shinier than I thought so I plan to darken it a little and see how that work, and if not, I will remove the zinc myself to give it a raw steel look. I also want to remove the most or all of the sleeves (the sleeves come down the wrist so its unhistorical from what we know), and use that extra mail from the sleeves as shoulder protection/doubler assuming the sleeves provide enough mail to make the doubler.
I will have to order the leather to pad/border the edge areas of the mail, and I plan to weld the rings on the shoulder and armpit areas as the shoulder area supports a lot of the mail's weight and the armpit areas because I have read that butted mail likes to come apart there more than other places. However, its true that to help take weight off the shoulder area you should wear a good belt. Next will come the plaid linen pants, plaid wool or linen shirt, and plain off white linen undershirt when I get around to ordering the fabric. I've chosen an Agen-Port helmet to wear. My kit will certainly be used for fighting, but my group is with Dagorhir so it will not be real metal weapons taking swings at my mail lol (besides, I do not want to extensively damage my gear, it can be expen$ive repairing everything!).
So you ordered the galvanized steel. You need not worry about darkening it up. The stuff wears off real quick. Infact, I used galvanized 16 gauge galvanized steel aswell and most of my shirt has already rubbed the zinc off (without me even trying).
For the shoulders, I just doubled up, making it more comfortable for me and giving it extra strength.
Ah, I understand. That is good news then, I'll just wait for it to wear off and get a little bit darker. How many months did it take before you noticed the zinc wearing off?
Well im not sure what it would be like for you, as I made my own. I believe the constant friction of the rings while I was working on it sped up the process. That and I did physically attach each ring to the next one. But id say a few weeks maybe? 3-4 possibly, but i guess it would depend on how often you wear it. I make it a personal rule to wear it when I play EB, to get used to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Power2the1
...You're awesome.Quote:
I make it a personal rule to wear it when I play EB, to get used to it.
An awesome addict, lol. :clown:Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaal
Thats a bit personal ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovejoy
I was tempted to buy some chain mail but for some reason I went and bought a suit of Lorica Segmenta.
Poor celts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasiliyi
Thats Awesome. Be like likinos from ur AAR and wear it for 7 days strait lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasiliyi
This is the book you're looking for:Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasiliyi
Leif Hansen, Die Panzerung der Kelten: eine diachrone und interkulturelle Untersuchung eisenzeitlicher Rüstungen (Keil: L. Hansen, 2003)
If only I could read in German....
Well, little progress has happened since the last time ive posted. I managed to finish the sleeves, and now im working on the shoulder padding. I doubt ill finish it before saturday though, when I plan to go to a local Renaissance festival.
https://img29.imageshack.us/img29/3504/chainn.jpghttps://img196.imageshack.us/img196/...verniarjos.gif(note that i am missing a helmet, shield and spear)
I looked through www.europabarbarorum.com and I found unit of Arjos who was wearing a red shirt, and I copied him, and of course, im going to be wearing pajama pants, because that is what the Celts wore. :clown:
Anyways, thanks to all who commented, and I have to tell you, if you do make your own Mail, you wont regret it.
Great job! When you make the doubler/shoulder protection, consider edging it with some leather. It looks extra nice then, but both are historical though so its your preference.
If you do, however, it might take you a while (at least it did for me) as I did it by hand (as they did not have leather sewing machines back then), even making the holes by hand for the needle and flax thread.
sweet!
say, can you also make a helmet to go along with your fine suite? it woul be beautiful to look at.
I don't really think that mail is anything more than for show, good rivetted mail is usually much thicker and also the only good way to afford protection, together with decent padding of course.
But Power2the1's woes and concerns in keeping and purchasing mail show why it is such a restricted armour in the EB timeframe. It required an amount of wealth alone to buy, and to maintain, that pre-supposed a wealthy livelihood off trade or farming, something which even the average Joe nowadays barely can afford. The best comparison with buying mail today is buying and fixing a relatively mid tier car, which is not for everyone at everytime.
I am trying to find time 2 make make my Botaroas shield. I might post it on here if i can figure out how. Chainmail is way far away.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Terribly Harmful Name
Btw: Does anyone know the proportions for it?
Heres several pics of me in my incomplete Gallic warrior kit. I am building it as a mix of different things from all over Celtica such as having the Pergamon frieze styled doubler, but having the leather edging from the Vacheres Statue.
https://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b...1/GEDC6083.jpg
https://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b...1/GEDC6085.jpg
Heres my helmet. Though is is an early picture, I've since padded in dome with foam and the leather cheek pieces have a small oval shaped foam pad covered by leather that outlines the shape of the cheek piece (for now I've no access to wool from sheep. It can get expen$ive...). I still need my horsehair plume. I drilled two very small holes in the cheek pieces to pass two leather strips through. Similar to tying your shoes, you tie the cheek pieces together so they can fit nice and snug along your cheeks.
https://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b...1/GEDC5945.jpg
The Battle!
Here I am tying my helmet's cheek pieces together and talking about melee tactics with my Scots Highlander brother-in-law...
https://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b...andScottoi.jpg
Awaiting honorable battle at the head of my warriors...
https://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b...rgosawaits.jpg
I soon achieved my notable and feared battle fury. As my longsword let loose their entrails, they were felled quickly...the head of my fallen foe later found a place upon the threshold of my great longhouse...
https://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b...Triumpahnt.jpg
Expressing my triumphant rage, I raise my sword to Taranis the Thunderer for giving me the insight and strength to reach victory!
https://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b...triumphant.jpg
Overall, I still need the linen pants and shirt and leather shoes (unless evidence is found where the Gauls invented denim shorts, cotton t-shirts, and leather boots hehe). My shield is in the process of being made and will be hexagonal in shape instead of oval and padded with stiff foam of course. My Gallic mustache is longer now so it strikes more fear and authority into the vassals that flock to my banner!
LOL get a balloon for it: :balloon2:.
In EB2, now that we can adjust the mail ratios, I do not think that any of the Gallic unit concepts feature 100% mailed units. Gauls mass produced things like pottery, but not mail. I would, however, wager that if the Romans left Gaul alone for another 2-3 generations, they certainly would have as well as formed states within tribal regions. Its was in the process of happening, but could not reach maturity.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Terribly Harmful Name
An overall measurement is to make the shield 3 feet or a little more in height (1 meter or so), and about 2 feet wide. However, remember that Celtic inspired shields came in all shapes and sizes, so you have some freedom to choose. There is certainly no one rule about their size!Quote:
Originally Posted by the man with no name
https://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b...ticShields.jpg
https://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b...1/GEDC2646.jpg
https://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b...omparisons.jpg
If you want a clear cut historical example, look here:
http://www.myarmoury.com/nateb_othr_nate_shield3.html
This is the shield that he modeled his after:
https://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b.../scan0060a.jpg
Another description mentioned that this particular shield was:
Quote:
A La Tene shield found at the actual La Tene site. Almost complete. This shield was roughly 1.1 meters long, and 1.2 cm thick at the center