French King's Court - SS6.2 Hotseat Council Thread

The Palais de la Cité is a sprawling complex of structures straddling the Île de la Cité on the Seine in the middle of Paris. First built in Roman times to house a military garrison, it has been upgraded ever since to suit the needs of the various rulers of Paris. Fortified to resist the attacks of Frankish and Norman raiders in the early Middle Ages, the Palais now serves as the seat of power of the Capetian dynasty. The King of the Franks holds hist court in the Grande Salle. Here he receives the grand barons of France, the prelates of the Church and the burghers of various chartered cities. Recently, embassadors from all over the world have been gathering in Paris to form a great council of nations at the call of King Philippe de France.

Dressed in fine silks from the best artisans of Sicily and sporting various rings and other jewels, King Philippe greets them personally in his throne room.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

PLEASE REFRAIN FROM POSTING OOC IN THIS THREAD.

A emissary of the Normans arrives, he is a small man dressed in somber cloths, his face is thin and angry looking and he walks with his back almost painfully rigid.

King William sends his regard to King Philip. I am John Kenneth, King Williams chosen representative in the court of his FORMER king. (it is glaringly obvious the representative is trying to point out the Normans very recent split with the Franks) However, my king still respects king Philip, and I am also here to see if we can discuss terms for an alliance, and a Military treaty. In private preferably.
The representative waits for the Franks response.

A diplomat and two escorts would follow him from the Fatamid Caliphate would arrive shortly after the Norman one. His face on the other had is rather excitidly and so would be the escorts.

Caliph Al-Munstansir sends the diplomat posted in Rome, to now Paris. We are excited, As I and my escorts are fond of western culture. Though we doubt any diplomacy here can deal with our Caliph in Cairo. We will be ready to listen.

King Philippe observe the Norman emissary's entrance with a calm expression and the hint of a smile. His eyes betray the slightest twitch at the man's barb, but he courteously sends a squire to fetch a chair for his guest, a rare honour in the Court of France. His stare hardens when he sees the Saracens and waves a servant away to take care of the exotic guests.

The King lifts a white-gloved hand to silence the Court.

We are grateful for your presence mes seigneurs. Sieur John Kenneth, I shall have my chancellor, Monseigneur Étienne de Reims, take care of the administrative details regarding an entente between Our Majesty and the Duke of Normandy but we are inclined to agree to the principle of an alliance. In the meantime gentlemen, welcome to the Kingdom of the Franks.

The King lowers his hand and nods to an elderly man of imposing stature standing besides him whose red and white flowing robes clearly identifies him as a cardinal of the Holy Catholic Church. At the clap of the clergyman's hands, young men bring in additional chairs for the expected arrivals. Tables are pulled to the sides of the room were a rich banquet is being served.

An Aragonese nobleman arrives, attended by two tall knights, clad in full mail armour.

We salute you, Philippe, King of the Franks!

Your highness, my name is Garcia de Hierro, I come representing Sancho, King of Aragon.

Our king has sent us to negotiate an alliance between your fair realm and our fledgling kingdom. We are particularly concerned with the continued Moorish presence in Andalusia, and seek to strengthen ties with your kingdom.

I believe negotiations about claims upon neighbouring lands should also be discussed.

A simple flexion of the wrist from the King has servants scurrying in ten different directions. Two men pull in a large oak table that they set in the center of the room, between the King and the assembling diplomats, while another unfolds a large map of Europe, North Africa, the Baltic and the Middle East. On it are represented the various nations and the lands that they currently claim.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://i733.photobucket.com/albums/...actionsMap.jpg

A young woman clothed in a loose fitting dress poses a smaller map next to it. And remains by the tableside.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://i733.photobucket.com/albums/...anceClaims.jpg

Philippe gestures towards the second map.

Welcome to Paris, Sieur Garcia de Hierro. You are indeed right, We have called this Council of Nations to discuss of exactly such matters and it is high time we started.

We plan to push the borders of the royal demesne from the English Channel to the Mediterranean. These lands are already under Our de jure jurisdiction and with the help of God, the rebellious nobles who oppose Our will shall be dealt with in a fair and swift fashion. We require the assistance of no outside sovereign in this enterprise and wish your Majesties the best of fortune in establishing your authority on your respective lands.

The young woman smiles mischeviously as Philippe speaks. When he is done, she turns invitingly towards the assembled emissaries and gives them a radiant smile.

"We have finally arrived master, though we are a bit late."

Do not worry Andreas. The secret of Diplomacy lies in how you present yourself. Being late is a way to tell that you are willing to come and negociate, but that you will not let yourself be confined by other's rule.

"I see" says the servant.

The Emissary, his servant and 2 cohorts enters the grand palace of the French King and walk along his unending hallways. As they arrive at massive iron twin-doors, the emissary raises his chin high and speaks to the soldiers guarding the door.

I am Gabrielus Angelus. I have come in the name of my sole Emperor, Alexius Comnenus, at the request of the Grand King Philippe.

Silence, followed by a loud grinding. A stream of light falls upon Gabrielus's face as the twin-doors open before him.

The Fatamid Diplomat bows to thank the French court and servants for their kindness.

We thank the French King for treating the Caliph's Servants well. Once the French gain back their losses in Southern France, Please talk to us to start recieving our trade shipments, as all should know, the Nile River is the greatest output of Grain. As for all other nations, We offer Trade to all nations, Though. We are not so eager to call out alliances. As we are not able to rightfully support an ally if needed. We wish peace for all members in the court. May Allah pr...

He Just realizes that this is not an islamic court.

May our gods protect us for days to come, The Caliph and his subjects praise the King of France for his judgement to call this Diplomatic Court into effect.

He would sit down, Trying to see if any food would be served shortly.

A beautiful young man, whipcord thin with perfect skin the color of the finest calf leather, enters the court. He is dressed in exceptional finery, fingers bedecked in rings, and bears himself proudly as he strides to within an appropriate distance of the King. With a deep bow the representative addresses the King in nearly flawless French,

"It is my very great pleasure to be the representative of Caliph Tahir to the court of King Phillipe. I am instructed to make it known that the highest aims of my people are peace, an end to petty rebellion, a blossoming of trade, and the free spread of knowledge to all the many varieties of the children of Allah, his will be done.

In response to the comments from the emissary of Aragorn let me say simply that my people are not at all concerned with the continued presence of Christians in Andalusia, or indeed in all of Iberia. Not in the slightest.

Indeed, variety is one of the many blessings of Allah most merciful and it pleases the princes of my land to no end that their subjects follow their hearts to the worship of Allah each in their own way. All men of good conscience and true intent will be welcome within the borders of the (A deliberate pause and slight look of discomfort add emphasis to the words) Moorish Empire, may it endure forever.

To all who intend peace we throw open our arms with joy! To all who wish trade we heartily wish the same!

To all others, let there be a simple warning; what Allah has given to his chosen will remain with them.

The Caliph has no territorial claims to present at this time, but rebels that border his lands should stand warned; their time is near an end. As for the claims of our very great host, we see them as good, just, and inevitable and encourage all present to support them by popular acclaim.

With a carefully bland glance around the chamber the diplomat then seeks his nation's place.

:egypt:

John watches the moor and Spanish diplomats, as if trying to decide something. He looks Garcia de Hierro.
If Argon ever needs assistance in their reconquista, they need but ask, England is quite willing to join their Cristian brothers on a holy crusade.
England would also like to make it known that any nation which chooses to ally itself with Ireland or Scotland shall soon enough find themselves on the wrong end of a English spear.
The Diplomats from both Scotland and Ireland shift at this, especially considering England had not even declared war on them yet. It was a bold claim.

At the mention of the mohammedan god, King Philippe exchanges a glance with the Archbishop of Reims. There seems to be a mute understanding between them. After but a short moment, Étienne de Reims bows his head and takes his leave from the court. Philippe's expression remains calm and unchanged when he fixes the Fatimid envoy anew.

Religion is the bread and water of the soul. We endeavour to have it guide our every decision and live a life as is prescribed by the Holy Scriptures and invite every man to do so as well for the salvation of his eternal soul. However, for the purpose of this Council, we understand the need for the mohammedan saracens to call upon the name of their god. Do not worry Saracen, in this place, no harm will come to you over this.

He takes a pause, as if choosing his next words.

And we thank you for your offer to establish commercial relations with our Crown. We must however decline for now.

Philippe's gaze then fixes intently the moorish diplomat, as if trying to see through his thoughts. The saracen returns a respectful gaze. Turning to the other people of the court, his eyes linger for a second on the girl by the map before moving on. He gives a small nod to acknowledge the presence of Roman Emperor's ambassador. Upon hearing John Kenneth, the Anglo-Norman emissary, he signals for a scribe to read a small document bearing his official seal:



His Majesty Philippe pledges to respect the territorial claims of the Duke of Normandy both in England and on the continent and the Duke swears never to claim any additional land in continental Europe as long as His Majesty Philippe sits on the throne of the Franks.

These conditions having been found fair by both parties His Majesty Philippe swears by Saint Denis and Saint Martin to be a friend of Lord William and of the Normans, to bring them succour in battle and to send prayers to God for their continued good health and good fortunes.


Philippe I de France,
Roi des Francs par la Grace de Dieu

A dusty man, dressed in expensive capes above light mail, enters the room.

' I am Abdhul, and I will be the Seljuk Sultan's voice in this chamber. First off, he wishes to thank the Frankish king for the invitation. Secondly, he extends hands of trade and prosperity to all nations. He especially wishes close friendship with his muslim brethren in the glorious Fatimid Caliphate and in the endless lands of the Moors. Lastly, should the representative from Constantinople show up, we have things to discuss. '

With this he puts a note on his seat, and leaves the court room with the same elegant haste with which he entered.

The Fatamid Diplomat would cough and look at Gabrielus Angelus

I know he doesn't look like a roman... Ahhh well...

He would try not to laugh.

Gabrielus is sitting at the table eating very little, more glancing at the other diplomats. Andreas, his servant, stands behind him with a bunch of scrolls in his hands, nervous.

"Sir..."

I know. Dot not let yourself stray from our true purpose. This is not a time for bickering but for negociations.

The servant standing behind his master shifts uneasely. Gabrielus places his eblows on the table, crosses his hands in front of him, lay his head on top of his newly joined hands and whispers:

But shall they wish to look at us from above, then let them be. It will only get them to underestimate us and by the time they find out, it will be too late.

The servant let slip a bit of a smile and regains his composure. Gabrielus then rises from his seat.

Now, I believe the Seljuk ambassador wishes to see us. Let us go then.

Gabrielus and his servant salute the members of the court politely and leave after the embassador.

John laughs, not a jolly laugh but a mocking one, his blue eyes taking in all the other diplomats escorts.
I did not realize we were expected to bring an armed guard with us, I had assumed this was to be a place of peace! perhaps having groups of armed men in a place where debates can be quite heated is not the best idea!

John nods at king Philip in agreement to his declaration, and runs his hand through his black hair, he walks out of the room for a moment, perhaps to tell a messenger of the good news. when he returns he seems to be in a very good mood

We are all glad that the franks are willing to see the value of peace. John say, a look of respect on his face. May this be the beginning of a long age of prosperity for the Franks and Normans.

The Fatamid would scratch is beard that looks like it has never been cut or shaved before. Then makes a side comment to John.

I do not know many excuses of other nations who bring full "Knights" when they are only a short ways away. The weapons were only needed just incase of any thing going bad on the long way from Gaza to Paris, As you can predict, It is a very long journy. These Escorts are used for not only personal protection, but also carrying supplies. The Caliph means no alarms to any one by bringing escorts.

He would look around at the Roman and Aragon's Escorts.

I would rather say though, It is rather funny to see some nations bringing full armed escorts in full heavy armour and such, for only a short journy. As you can see though...

He would point at his escort's, and his own empty sheaths

A sign that we trust the Frankish King of our protection, and a sign of peace. We have left our swords in our rooms, as they were only be used for the journey, not the destination.

He would smile at the court... and still look around for any food...

We would like to openly propose for a defensive alliance to be set up with the Seljuk Sultanate, As well as a Trade Alliance and Map Information.

He would sit down... Eagerly awaiting food.

The doors of the Court are flung open wide with a crash, and in bursts a huge, barrel-chested, dark-haired, ruddy-cheeked man with an enormous moustache.

He is wearing brand new clothes in all the latest fashions, but looks as though he got dressed just before dawn, which is probably when he had his first drink of the day.

He strides with a sailor's gait to the centre of the Courtroom floor, where he bows theatrically to the French King. He is followed by a thin priest in Benedictine robes, wearing a long-suffering expression on his gaunt, pale face.

It is I, Jozsef of the Arpad Kingdom of Hungary!

He looks around at the assembled diplomats and courtiers, smiling broadly and quite failing to focus on them individually.

Our great King Laszlo has sent me here to parlay with you fine fellows! And to offer our great respect and honour to the most noble King of France, whose hospitality is legendary!

We Magyar are a peaceful folk, and seek only to be left alone to do the things we enjoy most: riding our swift horses, drinking our fine ale, enjoying the company of our beautiful women, dancing, singing..

The Priest places a hand on his shoulder and whispers in his ear for a moment.

...ah yes, and of course, to pray and worship our Lord Jesus!

So, you fine fellows of all the lands, your merchants are welcome in our markets, and your armies have nothing to fear from us...as long as they stay at home!

He laughs loudly, clapping a leather-clad thigh with one massive palm.

To this end, we offer trade rights and map information to all.

Also, our immediate neighbours have already been contacted in private by our great King Lazslo himself, to discuss the finer points of diplomacy.

He sinks back into a cushioned chair and looks around for a drink.

King Philippe allows himself a short grin as the Magyar ambassador, Jozsef, reaches his seat. His expression soon returns to its noble and passionless complexion.

He signals again for a scribe to read from a small document bearing the seal of the Franks.



The Kingdom of the Franks pledges full support to the Crown of Aragon and all Christian rulers of Spain in their ongoing struggle to return their lands in the forgiving arms of the Church.

Furthermore, the Kingdom of the Franks recongises Aragonese suzerainty over the Kingdom of Navarra and the Emirate of Valencia, which includes the Balearic Isles.


Philippe I de France,
Roi des Francs par la Grace de Dieu

The massive twin-doors open once more to let the Roman Ambassador into the Grande Salle. Swift and silent, he walks to the middle of the room, his servant in tow. Then after a small gesture of the ambassador, the servant opens a large scroll and shows it around the room for everyone to see...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b...omanClaims.jpg

As of now, in the name of my Basileos, these lands are Roman Territory. We do not seek to expand beyond these borders nor are we eager for a fight, but anyone who tries to capture these provinces will be met with swords and spears. Already one kingdom has seen wisdom and submitted to our will. My Basileos hopes you others will do the same.


With another small gesture, the servant folds the scroll back and follows his master back to a table where the Roman Ambassador sits anew and takes possession of the food placed in front of him.

The Saracen diplomat's brow would raise when they would hear of the land claims that the Romans have made.

As you do "Claim" 10 provinces... You are either Brave, or Foolish. As you have claims for Lands all desired by the Crusaders, The Turks, The Fatamids, The Hungarians, and the Venice Republic...

As the Armenians rebelled against your empire, Which is located in Cillcia. You, on the other hand send your forces to Antioch where the Templar order which is a Catholic force would march as we speak. You go for foolish targets rather than the areas that have just rebelled against your rule not too long ago.

With these such foolish proposals, I only do wonder if the newest Roman Emperor is as mad as his father, and leaders before him as well. As their empire is falling due to their madness. I guess the Romans have not found a sane leader yet...

The diplomat would quickly write something down and hand's it off.

Ambassador Angelus slowly rises up from his seat and leans foward on the table, staring straight at the Fatimid emissary.


I believe that none of the Fatimid lands were touched, and no offense were made against your Caliph. And STILL you are here insulting my Basileos himself with your filthy words. As I still will treat your Caliph will respect whatever happens with you, since I cannot possibly think that a wise Leader could be represented by a pure blood cretin like you. But if you ever again talk trash to my Basileos, me or m people, I will make sure your Caliph know who was responsible for the war that will ensue.


As those words echoes in the Grande Salle, the roman sits back down, grabs a knife, and plunge it fiercly in a plate of red meat. Then, after taking a deep breath, cuts a slice of the meat to place it on his own plate before reaching for more food.

The Fatamid Diplomat would only smirk at him.

Starting wars due to a few pety insults? Now now, It is just free as I can say my opinion on how mad or drunk the emperor was at this time when he made these greedy requests. He might as well demanded Rome from the Pope. As the number of lands he requested more than doubles his already large empire and with out any consideration of his neighbors...

The Fatamid would go back to writing more things down.

A tall broad chested man dresses in simple but dignified robes enters through the doors. He stops and surveys the room briefly before bowing to the assembled diplomats.
I am Rurik Sviatoslav of the great nation of Kieven Rus, here on behalf of the Great Prince Veliky Knyaz Vsevolad. I apologize for my late arrival but it is a long journey and we received out invitation late. (he says these last words with a hint of bitterness in his voice.)

First of all, I am here to lay claim to those lands that are rightfully ours. The lands of the Steppes are rightfully ours and must merely be brought under control; I trust that none shall find this problematic for it borders none of your great nations.
https://img198.imageshack.us/img198/...ctionsm.th.jpg
Secondly, we wish to establish good relations with our Orthodox brothers the Romans. We have great respect for your empires long history and hope we will become fast friends. In this vein, I propose trade between our peoples, as well as an exchange of map information, and, if it is in the interest of the Romans, a defensive alliance.

To the Hungarians we also extend our warm greetings, and hope that we to may be friends. I offer trade rights between our peoples, and wish to negotiate over where our border shall fall, as soon as the rebels are brought into line that is.
Sitting down, he calmly serves himself a plate of food as he waits for the replies of his fellow diplomats.

The big Magyar stands, somewhat unsteadily, and grins broadly at the Rus, raising his flagon of ale.

We Magyar are pleased to announce that we have formed an alliance with the Rus, and also with each of our other neighbours: the German Romans, the Greek Romans, and the Venetian money men. Although they are not, as we understand it, allied to each other...

He looks a little confused before shrugging and continuing.

In each case we have successfully negotiated our proposed borders and the equal division of the lands that lie between us.

Long may this grand example of friendly and peaceful diplomacy shine a light over our Eastern lands!

Long Live King Laszlo the Diplomat!

He drains his tankard in one long draught before slamming it down on the table in front of him, wiping the froth from his prodigious moustache with the back of his leather-gloved hand, and sinking back into his chair with a contented expression on his ruddy face.

then we all hope none of them choose to go to war with each other, for what would Hungary do then?
John laughs

The Fatamid Diplomat would yawn after hearing every one get along, and stand up.

News from the Caliph has been recieved. A full military alliance will be started with the Seljuk turks for the moment due to the rebellious Tribes and self proclaimed Sultans. Also that the Caliph rejects any claims made into the holy lands besides ones who are already there. As it is Mostly Islamic. As Antioch is almost fully Islam. There is no logical term that the Roman Empire would want to own such a city. As it is just a provoke to hostilities by both of it's bigger and thriving neighbors to the north and south of the city.... What do we expect from, the emperor of rome is rather not in our same world, but he still lives in the world where he owns Rome itself. Ofcourse, We will leave the imbredding emperor alone for now...

The diplomat laughing under his breath wold turn to the newly arived diplomat from the Rus.

Greetings to the newest diplomat here, We are glad to have almost a full table here. Though, Your land claims almost seem as bad as the imbredded emperor..., not as bad though. You must not know the full area that well, We will correct.
The Area from Sarkel and the Caspian sea trade port have been heavily influenced by the Seljuk Turks and the Persian Empire's trade. Though still alot are pegan, I am sad to say that there are almost 3 times more islamic population than there is of an Orthodox population.

The Fatamid Caliph refuses to claim any lands. There for we Ignore all land claims until they are rightfully claimed by force. Not by words.

Before he sits down, he realizes something and just says it.

Oh before I forget, I will be giving a few letters, of more greetings... and maybe 1 to the roman asking if he has 6 fingers from the imbredding... Rumors from my town say his mother was with his older brother. Could explain the 6 fingers...

The Diplomat would sit down grinning.

Feeling the urge to clarify a few things, Abhdul stands.

' I must push the fact that our alliance with the Fatamids is, as my friend noted, a full alliance, but at this time purely defensive and aimed at securing our nations current and future independency. We will however stand as one against oppressors and self-proclaimed rulers of lands rightfully ours.

Although the lands north of the Caucasus mountains may be heavily influenced by my peoples culture and religion, my Sultan has no claims to those lands. '

Content with his contribution, he sits back into his chair.

I heartly greet the emissary of Prince Veliky Knyaz Vsevolad. It is with great pleasure that we accept to exchange trade rights and maps. I hope this this new "friendship" lasts long and prosper.

As for our Claims to Antiochia ad Orontem, if you would take the time to search into older archives, you will find that this Grand City once belonged to The Great Roman Empire, long before you were even born. The City was named after Antiochus, son of Seleucus I Nicator, who founded city. The city was stolen from us by the al-Rashidun Caliphate. We only with it to be returned to us, though we are not in a hurry. We are a patient nation. Eventually, the city will come back to us. In the mean-time, we wish to consolidate our rightfull lands and relationships with our neighbors.


As he finishes his sentence, Gabrielus Angelus turns towards the King of the Franks.


Oh great king of the Franks. As you can surely observe, one of us here has taken in himself the mission to force madness into our minds. I believe this to be an ultimatly disrespectfull action towards the true goal of this court and similarly towards your grand self. The decision is yours in the end, but if no actions are taken against this, then I will have to excuse myself and ask my two armed escorts who are eager to repair our Basileos's reputation to do so. I understand that the Fatimids would have no swords to defend themselves since they seemed to have misplaced them. And I would urge all others, with all due respect, to let me give them punishment, for I truely believe they deserve it. Honestly, this is not a declaration of war against the Caliphate, but simply the punishment of one individual who have wronged me and my Basileos.
And if by sad unfortunate circumptances, I am not allowed to do so, then I shall respectfully return to Konstantinopolis.

What say you to this King Philippe?

The Fatamid Diplomat would only laugh

Please, Do not go say that the city of Antioch used to be roman...
You could easily say that Rome, Sicily, Venice, Every on used to be roman. Things have changed for the best.
These cities have all revolted against your kingdom, and now your "Empire" is a smile pathetic dream of what it once used to be. To claim a city that has no Orthodox religion, is just an insult to the caliph. The City revolted against your king almost 400 of years. That city is all Islam with a tiny bit of Catholic, but no Orthodox.

It is quite simple that "claiming" something of this, has sparked my Caliph. And if you wish to do your "Punishment" then it is war. Words are one thing, even your peasents say how inbreded your emperor is, any physical actions against the Caliph's property is a treaty of war. Nor would we ever physically fight inside of a western king's palace of which he invited us to.

This wouldn't of started if your inbredded emperor made such mad request to claim islamic cities. If your emperor has any since at all he would know that would only provoke the islamic neighbors. We grant who ever is on these lands stay on these lands, considering if it is Catholic or Islam, but the Eastern Roman Empire has been removed some 400 years ago, And they will stay removed.

The French king has aloud every nation to give their opinion on matters, and this is the opinion of the Fatamids, We spit on you for even trying to "Claim" a city with none of your religion. As our courts go, Diplomats use words. We are using words to describe how wrong your inbred emperor is. If my reasoning skills are too harmful to your ears, enough so you have to ask a king of another nation to physically punish another diplomat. Then you are no diplomat. You are simply a fool. If the King wishes for me to hold myself. He can do that, and we, the Fatamid's humble servants, will listen to the Frankish King due to we respect him. but that may only be a tiny cloth over the snake's head of how much we despise of you and your inbreded emperor.

John turns towards the roman diplomat a scowl on his face.

already we have talk of punishment.... again I say this is a house of PEACE! and you would have blood shed for the sake of a small slight... this is EXACTLY the reason arms should not be permitted in this hall. if we are allowed to start butchering each other with no regard for diplomacy then what is the point of this place? I have no authority to stop you, but I urge Philip to keep the peace. The fatamids may be acting in poor tastes,
John throws a bitter glance at the Fatamids as well but that does not give you the right to punish him in any way. your laws have no authority here, none of ours do. this is Philips court and we should all remember that.

Gabrielus Angelus ignores the nameless diplomat and stares at the King of Franks, waiting for an answer.

John sighs and returns to his seat, whispering under his breath
I think we can all see why the Romans fell..... hubris. perhaps the Fatamids have a point.

A portly man in bright livery scratches his balding head while consulting various documents. Setting them aside he rises to address all present.


I suppose now is a good time as any to announce that the Republic of Venice outright refuse the preposterous defensive alliance proposed by the Fatimids in secret. Our Doge doesn't know if he should be impressed or insulted by the gall these moslems have shown in thinking we would sign any sort of agreement with them, even more so against our friends and neighbors the Romans.

I couldn't help but overhear this argument about Antioch. Wasn't Antioch in Roman hands but only two years ago? Answer me, Fatimid diplomat, perhaps you see Armenian rebels who grabbed power within the city as legitimate rulers, who truly care for the Roman citizens still in the city? Nay! The Romans are the legitimate rulers of that most Christian city, which was the seat of one of the five Patriarchs. Of course, we certainly could not expect a backward kingdom ruled by ignorant barbarians to know anything of history.

*The man sits down again, looking bored as he rifles through his documents once more.*

The Fatamid diplomat would sigh, and face palm.

How would a European know any thing about affairs in the east. They have been under different rulers for awhile. The Point I am trying to put is that the citizens has no Orthodox affiliation with them. The Romans are not Islam.

If you want me to currently refresh you abit. This CURRENT state, Antioch is 82% Islam, 8% catholic, and 2% Orthodox, and 8% of the the other religions. That is very... Christian? The reason why the city revolted against the Roman empire.

(OOC: I could just sit back and tell people to hug me and that I'm a care bear. I rather like throwing insults in a boring council meeting =p )

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Merlox

The Fatamid diplomat would sigh, and face palm.

How would a European know any thing about affairs in the east. They have been under different rulers for awhile. The Point I am trying to put is that the citizens has no Orthodox affiliation with them. The Romans are not Islam.

If you want me to currently refresh you abit. This CURRENT state, Antioch is 82% Islam, 8% catholic, and 2% Orthodox, and 8% of the the other religions. That is very... Christian? The reason why the city revolted against the Roman empire.

---

So you say Armenian are moslems now? (not my fault if the game does not reflect history, historically there were way more Christians than Moslems) Really, did you walk in the streets yourself to get those numbers or did you simply made them up because you are not able to defend your position?

Rough Estimates, but the ruler of that city is quite sure of his numbers.

(OOC RESPONSE: Islamic courts where all of the independant islamic sultans and caliphs meat. they also drink whine and bet on horse racing Theres a big sign as well that says the current population and religion right in front of the city. Theres a mosque that has a big city now, that just says on a gaint billboard "SELJUK REBELS" Not my fault either, but hey, if we went with the history went, We'd know the outcome of every thing.)

*The portly man yawns.*

(What else than history would you use to discuss of the years before the game starts? Also, considering getting all the information you are posting would be impossible to gather in that time period, I'm choosing to ignore that part of your argument. :shrug:)

Though most of the court's dignitaries have been following the debate raging between the Roman and Fatimid envoys and their respective backers, the cautious few who have kept sight of the king have seen his calm countenance melt steadily through the stream of nonsensed professed in his court. When the Venician diplomat chips in, the king's eyes, like daggers dissecting a corpse, cut from one boisterous man to the next with dread intensity.

With a sudden burst, Philippe springs to his feet, sending the plates of food clattering down the dais of his throne. Towering above the crowd, his voice booming over the cacophonus din of bickering noblemen, he lets out a roar that silences everyone.

The whole room pauses. For a moment that seems an eternity, no one dares a breath.

The king's voice is eerily soft after such an outrageous display.

You!

He points the Roman.

And you...

His look goes to the Fatimid.

You are a disgrace! To threaten to lift up arms in my court! Do you think you're mercenaries could've even drawn their blades before an arrow was lodged in both their eyes? As for this crude slandering of a noble and christian prince, I have never even heard of such infamy even coming from the lowest dreg, let alone an ambassador supposed to represent a noble people.

You will cease your inanities at once. Or the next message your kings will receive from this court are your heads on a platter.

With this the king, followed by his guards and courtiers storms out of the court. The young woman that was overseeing the maps scuttles after him. There remains, standing besides the throne, the Archbishop of Rheims, his face a stern mask of disapproval.

After the king has left the fatamid diplomat sighed. Though... he had a slight smirk.

look where your emperor's requests got us now, we're both in trouble. Though... we never solved our arguement over Antioch... As our Caliph said before, "I doubt any diplomacy in Paris will change any thing in Cairo."... I wonder if any thing useful will come out of this court besides us babbling over territories.

The Archbishop's frown lightens into a little grin.

I would not be so sure that the distant East remains so distant in the near future. You might well wish to soften the tone of your "diplomatic" entreaties and make friends rather then enemies. Most Christian kings already find you in disrepute, saracen.

There is an eery feeling of menace in the holy man's words.

The roman had frozen since king Philippe had started speaking. Never has he seen such anger and supremacy in one's tone, even his basileos. As the archbishop sentence ended, a shiver ran through his spine and woke him up from what seemed to be a very long moment of reflection and regret. As his head turned around, he found his servant livid, terrified. He then realized.


Holy Archbishop! I believe I owe the King an apology, though I'm sure he won't be in the mood to hear me out when he comes back. He invited me into his house to talk about peace and what have I done? I am the one who insulted him by threatening others in his court . He is right, I AM a disgrace. I simply hope he finds it in his heart to forgive my irrespectful behavior.


The roman then sends his two escorts away leaving only him and his servant behind. Then whispers.


We have learned an important lesson today Andreas. Indeed we have...

...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Merlox

...

---

Such eloquent silence, it truly becomes you. Please, do continue.

Ignoring the Venitian, the Archbishop acquiescence Angelus' words with a nod.

The king is authoritative but fair. He holds no grudges unless they are deserved.

With that done, and to offer an apology to the Romans. Hopefully we can work this out another way. As the Romans are in range for our grain exports. We would like to grant them for Trade rights if they with do. Though, I wish to discuss Antioch in private matters with the Roman.

Perhaps we have been too harsh. We will soon talk to the Romans in private terms.

He would lower his head toward the Roman, then turn to the diplomat from venice.

Though with the Venice, With such hostile ways. I would still offer my grain support to your island of Iraklion (IE TRADE). but I doubt you will accept.

The Doge will accept trade with anyone, even moslems, provided they show a proper amount of respect and manners. You seem to be showing a certain understanding in these manners. We can both agree to disagree on the matter of Antioch, leave the issue at that, and move on to something more productive, or we can hurl insults at each other for a few more days before the noble king of France tires of this and throws us out of his court.

We accept your offer of trade, but we still decline the defensive pact you offered, for obvious reasons.

Ah, now that you two are done bickering, I hope that we may return to more friendly discussion.

As to our claims on the regions along the caspian sea, it may be true that Islamic influence there is strong, but they are under the rule of none except themselves, also, we have already reached an agreement with the Seljuks that the border between our cultures will be drawn at the natural barrier of the Caucasus.

We also realize that our claims may seem a little large at this time, but these are all barbaric and ungoverned lands at this time, and no other people have a claim upon them. Therefor we see it as being polite to state that these are territories which should rightfully belong to our people.

We are also glad to confirm the anouncment of an alliance with Hungary, the Magyar have displayed to us that they are reasonable and wish for peace and prosperity between us.
Along with drawing the Caucasus as a dividing line we are also to establish trade with the Seljuk Sultanate.

It is my hope that the Romans will also be so kind as to establish trade with us, for it could only lead to our mutual benefit.

sitting back down, Rurik continues eating, smiling broadly at everyone

The hall doors open, and a tall man in a red cape with white fur on the shoulders and a strange horned helmet enters. He has no aides, no servants, no sergeants, not even a a man to carry his great axe. He bows politely and announces in a grave voice

I am Gerbrand Eliassen, and I speak for the King of all Danes, Knud. If you have any matters or interests in the baltic region, you will have to speak to me. We seek good relations with all the great countries represented here, but we know that a kind word and an axe can bring most of the times more results than just a kind word.

He then takes the biggest seat he can find and calmly begins to fill a plate with food from the big table.

England is quite open to trade with the Danes, and perhaps an alliance that will benefit us both.


also, I just wish to make sure I understand the terms of our agreement with franks, what exactly is continental Europe to you? is England barred from marching on any land in Europe or just the main area of continent, (IE, France, and Germnay)

The diplomat of the Moors inclines his head and winks at the Englishman's laughably obvious nitpicking.

:egypt:

A French servant passes a note to John Kenneth. The Englishmen seems satisfied with its contents.

Gerbrand Eliassen walks close to the english emisary, and speaks:

We will always welcome trade links with our neighbors, so we accept your offer. About the alliance, we will have to discuss it in more detail, at a time of your convenience.

A tall, older man, perhaps in his fifties, clothed richly in dark red hues, strides into the room. His eyes are a steel blue, his hair silvery, but still full, and his nose hooked like an eagle's beak over his thin lips, which are clean-shaven. He looks toward the fat, balding fellow supposedly representing Venice. The merchant looks shocked to see this man here.

"So... you thought you could just come to this meeting and claim that you were representing the Republic, Agostino?"

"My... my lord, I apologize dearly! I was only hoping to acquire new trade routes-"

"No doubt involving solely your own merchant ships. The greed of your kind appalls me sometimes. Leave this place at once, and go back to your business in Venice immediately. Do not let me see you here in Paris again, or I will make you regret it."

"Y-Yes, my lord. Pardon me, it shall be done at once."

With that, the short man scurries quickly out of the building. The older lord turns his attention to the table.

"Greetings, my friends. I am sorry that you had to suffer through that pretender of a diplomat. I am the right hand of the Doge of Venice himself, Antonio Lanzuoli. I am also known as the Duke of Ancona. On behalf of Venice, I would like to offer free trade with any nation here that wishes it; we are, after all, a most serene Republic, and war is the least of our concerns. The only peoples we will be warring with are rebels and pretenders who deserve to die anyway- and this includes our friends the Genoese. Additionally, I would like to speak with the representatives of Hungary, Sicily, and the German Empire of Rome more privately to discuss Venetian... trade interests. Thank you."

The Duke of Ancona seats himself.

The Fatamid diplomat looks rather bored, looking around seeing if any one would pipe up, then gives up and stands up.

Greetings from the Fatamid Caliphate. As you are one of our closest neighbors, or well, your colony on the island Iraklion is. We would be happy to publicly ask for trade rights to your colony on Iraklion. Making Iraklion, an ideal trade sea port from the far east, to the far west... We will await for your answer. If you do accept, We will send the diplomat to Iraklion.

He would pause for a second, then continue

I am sorry to announce this all to the court, but the Caliphate at this time rejects ANY merchants, diplomats, as well of of course, spies, assassins, and priests in his lands. We will have official finalizing diplomats near Rome, and Constantinople. We simply ask of you to respect our demands. Last but not least, any foreign navies or armies near our coast line, military troops near OR inside of our borders will be responded as an act of war. Any agents who ignore this, and still send into our lands, will be executed. Please report to me if you have any of the above, and please ask permission if you so need to do this. We will respond with the utmost haste.

It is not my, or my master's will to gain any enemies, but it is for security measures. We hope you all understand, and respect our most simple requests.

The Fatamid diplomat would sit back down.

The Duke of Ancona turns to the Saracen diplomat, giving him an inquisitive stare.

Of course, we will accept trade with Fatimid Egypt gladly, sir diplomat, but I must ask the sense behind not allowing agents from other nations into your country. The ban on spies and assassins, of course, I fully understand and support. But restricting all diplomats and merchants- surely this will only result in restricted trade and diplomacy! If everyone imposed the sorts of rules you did, we would be unable to have diplomatic talks at all.

The aging man then turns to address the rest of the council.

Furthermore, pursuing an unrelated subject, the Doge has contacted me with a list of areas he considers to be necessary for Venetian trade interests. He has provided me with a map for easy perception.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://i709.photobucket.com/albums/...imsCropped.jpg

Venice will soon be subjugating the nearby independent cities of Milan, Zagreb, and Florence. We will also be relieving the treacherous Genoese of their capital, and placing our... permanent protection over the Papacy. Finally, Venice is willing to negotiate a large sum with the Holy Roman Empire for the control of Blogna, if at all possible.

Bold claims Venice..... Then again it would appear most of the nations here are quite adept at Bold claims......

The Archbishop of Reims' eyes flare up when the Duke of Ancona reveals his map. His voice crashes down on the Council with terrible imprecation and menace:

Retract your blashphemous claims from the lands of the Holy See at once or you shall soon find yourself at odds with France and many members of this Council! The Holy Father is not some sort of unaligned, petty prince whose frivolous claims can be pushed aside! Should your armies dare to even set foot within his dominion, be assured that France and all those who wish to call her friend will drive down upon you with such a terrible wrath that nothing of your demesne will remain standing and your vile heresy will be wiped from the pages of the histories! It is already bold enough for you to menace your christian neighbors in Genoa, do not compound your impious greed with sins.

Turning towards the Fatimid envoy and cooling the fire of his words, the Archbishop continues:

Your demands to restrain the movement of agents in your lands is understandable, but since the Holy City of Jerusalem falls within your sphere of influence, surely, you would allow the faithful and the duly appointed representatives of the Christian Kings of Europe to have access to such an important site? It would be viewed most auspiciously if you would grant us such a right.

The Hungarian Priest stands to address the Court. Just as he is about to speak, he is interrupted by Jozsef, who belches loudly and openly. The Priest shoots him a withering stare, is rewarded with an apologetic shrug and rueful grin, and turns back to the Court to proceed.

Ahem.

It is clear that there has been some error in the construction of this map. Our ally the Doge of Venice can surely not expect those gathered here to accept a plan for his armies to breach the gates of the Vatican City! Why this would automatically place him at war with the whole of Christendom, our own Kingdom included.

We expect that his representative will clarify this position, and withdraw this inconceivable claim as soon as possible.

John laughs, taking the whole situation far less seriously then the other diplomats
You have done it now Venice, Perhaps you should revoke your claims soon before we burn you as a heretic!

Ofcourse we accept that, We will just require you to inform of us of the exact details when you are planned to leave.

The sturdy roman diplomat looks at the scene and smiles. Then he slowly bends toward his servant and says:

Look at this Andreas, can you recognize what this is?

"A fight between kingdoms of the same religion?"

More than that my dim-witted companion, it is an opportunity to gain more land... and without angering anyone. If Italy acts and conquer they Papacy, everyone will be against them. And what will there be for us in this war?

"Nothing master... this war doesn't concern us... I don't see how we can acquire more..."

Gabrielus slaps slightly the back of the head of his servant and looks at him severly.

If this war blooms, we will assist the christian kings in retaking Italy, and by doing so, maybe gain a few more provinces like Dalmatia and Croatia, which will bring us closer to our ancestral home. Now I don't believe the Basileos wishes to conquer Rome, as it would anger the same lords that would have helped us gain these territories, but having a foot back in Italy would be comforting don't you think?

"Of course master" replies the servant, rubbing lightly the back of his head...

John speaks up not hearing the Romans but guessing there intent
Ahh look already the Byzantines plot! I would not get to worked up over Venice my friends, I am quite sure he will understand the error in his ways and relent.

A small smile quirks the elegant lips of the Moorish diplomat before he speaks,

Come, come gentlemen. What's this talk of oppression and war? The Venetians merely offer to guard the Pope and ward the citizens of Rome. Would the Pope seriously reject such a grand and noble gesture? Perhaps the Venetian Doge has already spoken with your spirtual leader regarding his plans and has the good man's assent?

The Sultan has dispatched a diplomat to Rome. In the meantime my people consider the Venetians to be embarking on a glorious project of good faith towards all of Christendom, and as such they have our support, such as it is.

:egypt:

The Fatamid shakes his head at disgust.
I have no comment toward this, As it was a mistake, or maybe he means more than he has told us.

Though, Since we are all arguing over this, I will lay down my master's map claims.

https://img200.imageshack.us/img200/...tamidlands.jpg

The Dark Gold is our current Empire and front lines.
The Bright Yellow is rebels, smaller insignificant Kingdoms and Sultans. Our future and claimed lands.

As you see, Our empire will include Jerusalem, but. That is considered a free zone for all religions of that sort. We will claim the holy city from the rebel and protect Jerusalem.

John laughs once again, obviously finding this whole spectacle hilarious

I never in a waking day of my life believed I would agree with a Moslem on so much!

The Archbishop of Reims glares at the Moorish diplomat:

Do not involve yourself in matters of the Church Moslem. Your opinions on the matter are not welcome.

The Papacy is under the protection of the King of the Franks and any who thread on his lands or incur his wrath also incur the wrath of the King. Any who dare support such actions will be considered a heathen and a blasphemer and will meet the fate God has ordained for such crimes.

I have no comment at this time on the distant lands of the Fatimids.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Lemongate

The Archbishop of Reims' eyes flare up when the Duke of Ancona reveals his map. His voice crashes down on the Council with terrible imprecation and menace:

Retract your blashphemous claims from the lands of the Holy See at once or you shall soon find yourself at odds with France and many members of this Council! The Holy Father is not some sort of unaligned, petty prince whose frivolous claims can be pushed aside! Should your armies dare to even set foot within his dominion, be assured that France and all those who wish to call her friend will drive down upon you with such a terrible wrath that nothing of your demesne will remain standing and your vile heresy will be wiped from the pages of the histories! It is already bold enough for you to menace your christian neighbors in Genoa, do not compound your impious greed with sins.

Turning towards the Fatimid envoy and cooling the fire of his words, the Archbishop continues:

Your demands to restrain the movement of agents in your lands is understandable, but since the Holy City of Jerusalem falls within your sphere of influence, surely, you would allow the faithful and the duly appointed representatives of the Christian Kings of Europe to have access to such an important site? It would be viewed most auspiciously if you would grant us such a right.

---

OOC:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I don't see what the big deal about the pope is, here. There's no more crusades, so there's not much point besides role-playing a casus belli for an excommunication. Nevertheless, if the rest of Europe highly disagrees with me, I don't really need Rome anyway. I expect that, in this case, nobody else will be making their own claims on the Papacy, then.

The Duke of Ancona, once he has returned from his unexpected and urgent business, takes a look at the scroll where the discussion has been recorded, and stands to make a deep apology.

"The Republic of Venice would wish to make an apology towards the Papal State of Rome. There appears to have been a... mistake in the intelligence that our nation has gathered as of late. The Doge and myself had been led to believe that the Pope no longer held sway over the hearts of the kings and sovereigns of Europe in this day and age. We know for sure that, should he wish to call a crusade to Jerusalem now, not a single one of you would take up arms and the cross for Christendom.

Clearly, this is not so, and I would beg the forgiveness of my peers and His Holiness himself for such a sacrilegious statement. Venice rejects all of its unjust claims on the Holy City; however, as this seems to be the only opposition, all other claims will stand. The Doge will soon be sending a private messenger to the Holy Roman Emperor to speak of the ownership of Emilia-Romagna and the city of Bologna; as he has not deigned to send his representative here yet, we have no way of knowing his own opinion on the matter."

With that, the Duke lets out a deep sigh and takes a seat.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chaotix

OOC:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I don't see what the big deal about the pope is, here. There's no more crusades, so there's not much point besides role-playing a casus belli for an excommunication. Nevertheless, if the rest of Europe highly disagrees with me, I don't really need Rome anyway. I expect that, in this case, nobody else will be making their own claims on the Papacy, then.

The Duke of Ancona, once he has returned from his unexpected and urgent business, takes a look at the scroll where the discussion has been recorded, and stands to make a deep apology.

"The Republic of Venice would wish to make an apology towards the Papal State of Rome. There appears to have been a... mistake in the intelligence that our nation has gathered as of late. The Doge and myself had been led to believe that the Pope no longer held sway over the hearts of the kings and sovereigns of Europe in this day and age. We know for sure that, should he wish to call a crusade to Jerusalem now, not a single one of you would take up arms and the cross for Christendom.

Clearly, this is not so, and I would beg the forgiveness of my peers and His Holiness himself for such a sacrilegious statement. Venice rejects all of its unjust claims on the Holy City; however, as this seems to be the only opposition, all other claims will stand. The Doge will soon be sending a private messenger to the Holy Roman Emperor to speak of the ownership of Emilia-Romagna and the city of Bologna; as he has not deigned to send his representative here yet, we have no way of knowing his own opinion on the matter."

With that, the Duke lets out a deep sigh and takes a seat.

---

OOC: the problem is you are still talking to a bunch of catholics nations about taking over Rome..... would not go over good then, so we responded just like they would have to these claims.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

OOC: exactly, we were RP'ing. Also, the Pope will still be able to excommunicate us, with all the attendent misery that brings, so he does play some role in the game.

Regarding Crusades, as I understand it we won't be allowed to join in-game crusades called by the Pope, but there's nothing stopping us from RP'ing a crusade if we all wanted to join forces and kick some heathen ass, so long as we don't use the in-game mechanic to get free units etc.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

OOC: and you can be 100% sure that I, for one, will be a crusading zealot - even moreso against excommunicated heathens :smash::smash::smash: we simply do not use the in-game mechanism for crusades and jihads because they are unbalancing

this also theoretically means that the 4th crusade is totally role-playable and that the devastation of Hungarian lands by reckless crusaders (as well as their total annihilation by the Hungarian King, is possible as well

being a friend of the pope so as not to be excommed is, in this perspective, probably even more important then in the regular games as "crusades" will be mostly left to the whims of individual players, or worse, coalition of players


Oh, and please everyone, follow Chaotix's very good example and put OOC stuff in spoilers. It makes the rest of the thread look so neater that way :beam:

The Aragonese emissary, Garcia de Hierro, places a large document on the middle of the council's table.

Here is the Treaty of Paris, but lately signed between the Kingdom of France and the Crown of Aragon. I advise all emissaries to take note.

"The Treaty of Paris - 1080

The Kingdom of France pledges full support to the Crown of Aragon should war break out between the Christian kingdoms of Spain and the Moors.

The Crown of Aragon and the Kingdom of France will permit one emissary to reside at each other's royal court permanently in order for speedy conducting of diplomatic affairs.

The Crown of Aragon permits the presence of French clergy in her lands, and encourages missionary efforts on the behalf of the Kingdom of France.

The Crown of Aragon recognises French suzerainty over the currently rebellious lands of Gascony and Provence.

The Kingdom of France recongises Aragonese suzerainty over the Kingdom of Navarra and the Emirate of Valencia, which includes the Balearic Isles."

The Fatamid would would shake his head

I just smell the scent of greed. A small kingdom obtaining a full military might of france, and use it as a children's playtoy. Hopefully he means a Defensive alliance, or we will most likely see a war declaration by aragon onto the moors very shortly, and only moors and frenchmen dying, while the aragons sit back, or help the frenchmen with the whole aragon army, which is really only 300 men at most that can throw a javalin, then run for their lives.

You have only just tried to break ties between us two religions with a proposal like that, you include the Moors so much as a violent nation, but they have not even threatened you yet. You have the nerve to try to push a nation that is well over 4 times the number of land area, and population with out even giving them something so that they could be happy with the term? You sir, Fail at proposing proposals, Here...

The Fatamid would grow a smirk on his face.

I have a new worthwhile treaty that france would be interested as well. Aragon officials commit suicide, which would cause disbandment of this so called kingdom you call it, and gives all of their lands to France. As they seem to know what to do with it better, and to get you out of this court to prevent any more of your messy proposals which just lead to anger. Yes... Oh wait... That doesn't include your say... now does it?

The Fatamid would sit down with disgust.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Merlox

The Fatamid would would shake his head

I just smell the scent of greed. A small kingdom obtaining a full military might of france, and use it as a children's playtoy. Hopefully he means a Defensive alliance, or we will most likely see a war declaration by aragon onto the moors very shortly, and only moors and frenchmen dying, while the aragons sit back, or help the frenchmen with the whole aragon army, which is really only 300 men at most that can throw a javalin, then run for their lives.

You have only just tried to break ties between us two religions with a proposal like that, you include the Moors so much as a violent nation, but they have not even threatened you yet. You have the nerve to try to push a nation that is well over 4 times the number of land area, and population with out even giving them something so that they could be happy with the term? You sir, Fail at proposing proposals, Here...

The Fatamid would grow a smirk on his face.

I have a new worthwhile treaty that france would be interested as well. Aragon officials commit suicide, which would cause disbandment of this so called kingdom you call it, and gives all of their lands to France. As they seem to know what to do with it better, and to get you out of this court to prevent any more of your messy proposals which just lead to anger. Yes... Oh wait... That doesn't include your say... now does it?

The Fatamid would sit down with disgust.

---

The Duke of Ancona smirks at the Saracen emissary.

"Sir, have you not done the same thing, in agreeing to an alliance with the Turks?

Surely the only reason for this, besides defense, of course, is so that you might snatch away a piece of Greece once the inevitable war between the two begins? The Venetians know very well the ways of men. Luckily, for the most part our state has left greed for land in exchange for a greed for profit. Outside Italy, we have very little interest in land, besides perhaps another trading and resupplying post like Iraklion."

The Duke, blunt as a Venetian warhammer, is satisfied with his comment, and awaits the hypocrite's answer.

The fatamid sighed

That was not my point of the arguement. My point is that the treaty is against just a single target, who has not done any thing wrong, For example, Fatamid and Seljuk empire against Venice, if you take Milan, or trade HRE lands, and not giving you, venice, a chance to speak your side.

That is my arguement. I have nothing against defensive alliances. His treaty is what I have a problem with. It's a provoke to war. Which we should not do.

The Fatamid just rubs his head on how blunt minded the duke really is.

Gentlemen, please, do not argue on our account. We are fully content with the alliance between Aragorn and France. It has always been the policy of the Moorish Sultans that men of any faith or nationality may live in peace under our rule.

:egypt:

The Duke of Ancona stands to speak, looks around, and notices that just about every other diplomat has dozed off. Well, as long as that scribe is awake, no one can claim he has not said the words he is about to utter.
"Venice wishes to use the castle of Tortosa, currently held by the Knights Templar, as a trading outpost in the eastern Mediterranean, so we might better receive silk from Egypt. Before we mobilize any forces, however, we would wish to know if other nations have any previous claims on the castle. Thank you."

The fatamid diplomat finally has a smile on, and stands up.

Thank you for asking if this land, so close to my borders, was ok. For that, We have no problems, As long as you are there for peaceful trading. There are no problems, on part of the Fatamid Caliphate. As all we can see, You are going to make alot of westerners happy by all of the silk you will be shipping out, and we'll be excited to see western equipment!

The Fatamid would sit down.

Johns Face grows grim

so what you are asking if it is OK to attack the knights Templar? A group who has fought valiantly for many years to keep the holy land free for our pilgrims access?

Once again Venice has overstepped its bounds. If this flagrant view of attacking any bastion of Catholicism continues then England will have a very big problem with Venice. And I am sure the pope will share my view.

The big Magyar Jozsef stands and shrugs.

We Magyar care not whether this castle at Tortosa is held by one group of moneylenders or another.

It is true that our allies the Venetians overstepped the mark by their declared intentions towards the Pope, but they have since clarified their position to the satisfaction of us all, have they not?

Surely England has more pressing concerns than to worry about a castle so far from their own lands.

Let the Doge worry about his relations with the Pope, it is not for your or I to decide on his behalf.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cultured Drizzt fan

Johns Face grows grim

so what you are asking if it is OK to attack the knights Templar? A group who has fought valiantly for many years to keep the holy land free for our pilgrims access?

Once again Venice has overstepped its bounds. If this flagrant view of attacking any bastion of Catholicism continues then England will have a very big problem with Venice. And I am sure the pope will share my view.

---

Let the English King be assured that Venice has no intentions against Christianity. Surely it is not a problem to be taking a castle which would otherwise soon be overrun by Saracens anyway? Rather, it is a good idea, as by being under control of a larger state, the castle will be better defended. The Knights Templar are no longer under any sort of strong leadership. Sooner or later, if left alone, they would be easily conquered. By placing the castle Tortosa under Venetian rule, it remains a bastion of Christianity, and the place will prosper as well. We are doing the region a favor by taking it under our wing, and we have the full assurance of the Fatimids that they will not interfere in that small place in the Levant.