Adding Frighten_mounted to Sarissa units

Well, because that discussion in "Elephants going rampage" but then, the discussion shifts into about how effective spear can deter cavalry units, I gonna some experience on adding "frighten_mounted" on phalangitai units... as expected, some elite cavalry (kataphraktoi & hetairoi) can't push themself against the pikes anymore (they actually do it for some time and then routs)... but I got a little problems that is very funny...

When I add frighten_mounted ability to my humble Phalangitai Deuteroi, and build a normal battleline with them, any lesser light cavalry (such as thraikioi hippeis, and assortment of barbarian light cavalry, as well as hippakontistai), now are fled rather instantly each time I order them to charge the phalanx line.... FROM BEHIND....

Is there any sort how to made this unit is frightening only from the front?

type greek infantry taxeis phalangitai
dictionary hellenistic_infantry_taxeis_phalangitai ; Phalangitai Deuteroi
category infantry
class spearmen
voice_type Light_1
soldier hellenistic_infantry_pantodapoi_machimoi_taxeisphalangitai, 60, 0, 1.4
officer ebofficer_hellenic_officer
officer ebofficer_hellenic_standardbearer
mount_effect elephant -1
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, frighten_mounted
formation 1.1, 1, 2.2, 2, 6, square, phalanx
stat_health 1, 1
stat_pri 12, 0, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, piercing, spear, 0 ,0.17
stat_pri_attr long_pike, light_spear
stat_sec 7, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, slashing, sword, 0 ,0.13
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 8, 4, 5, leather
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 3
stat_ground 0, 0, -4, -2
stat_mental 9, normal, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 1479, 370, 40, 50, 1479
ownership macedon, thrace

I would say no, fright is something instinctive; a shying away from fire, elephants or camels if you are a horse. And from berserkers if you are a human, the anormal and dangerous, by sheer instingt like you shy away from a snake or tarantula or get goosebumps or whatever, something that can only be overcome by bravery or training.

Spears deterring cavalry is not from fright- they are no more frightening than any other wall of men to a horse. It is the rider thinking "Hmmm... if I charge unto long and pointy things we will die, I better circle round them or charge somewhere else", it is not from fright, just sheer tactical sense.

Let us not mix the two. Phalanxes are over-effective already, no need to add something instinctive that is no worse than any other massive and tight formation of infantry.

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Originally Posted by Macilrille

Spears deterring cavalry is not from fright- they are no more frightening than any other wall of men to a horse. It is the rider thinking "Hmmm... if I charge unto long and pointy things we will die, I better circle round them or charge somewhere else", it is not from fright, just sheer tactical sense.

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No I think its exactly that wall of pointy things that is much more frightening than other walls (to the HORSE!!)

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Originally Posted by ziegenpeter

No I think its exactly that wall of pointy things that is much more frightening than other walls (to the HORSE!!)

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As I see more clearly, sarissas have double pointy thingies, the one at the back is still frightening to horse... don't they? :smash: :hammer:

We are still animals. Let us compare.

Go to your kitchen. See those knives? Those can kill you easily. But they aren't doing anything, and are just sitting there. You're fine. If someone was throwing them at you, you would be scared.

Expand.

To a horse, a phalanx is just some odd object. They don't really care. A war horse does not get spooked by the mere sight of danger, which the horses might not even recognize the phalanx as at a distance. It's only when they get ordered to charge into a phalanx do the alerts pop off and they start freaking out.

This discussion intrigues me. Some claims have been made that horses wont charge into a row of spears, but what is the truth of this?
It should be easily testeble, if you have a horse lol.
I do know that horses wont run into mobs of people. But you can train them to do it. The riot police, for example.
So can you train horses to charge into men and/or pike formations? and if so, was ancient cavalry trained to do this?
Isnt chaeronae an example of well trained cavalry succesfully charging a (hoplite) phalanx?

Horse is not a cheap animal.... :sweatdrop: and I don't have any...

But if we want to test this, I have an Idea... (no, this test won't kill your horse in question)
1. Collect some old plastic toy swords from your neighbourhood about two dozen or three. Mount them on some long 5 m bamboo rods, or stick.
2. Ride your horse into a large open plain (or a really big backyard)
3. Give each "toy sarissa" to your friends, and try to form a phalanx (give them EB screenshots).
4. Now ride your horse slowly to these bristling wall of "toy sarrisa"
5. See if your horse want to going deeper into the spearwall or not... I'll wait your test result... :laugh4:

Well I think that horses can be trained to ride into a bulk of people, but not into a wall of pikes. Or at least that how I remember it from the books I read. I guess the pointier the wall is, the more reluctant are the horses...

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Originally Posted by alexanderthegreater

Isnt chaeronae an example of well trained cavalry succesfully charging a (hoplite) phalanx?

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I rather doubt that Alexander broke the Theban Sacred band with his cavalry.

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Originally Posted by Dutchhoplite

I rather doubt that Alexander broke the Theban Sacred band with his cavalry.

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...from the front.
Plus, had they Sarissas? Don't think so.

Only an insane general would have charged a phalanx from the front, I doubt the classic generals were as stupid as the RTW AI.:dizzy2:

A charge in the back of an already engaged phalanx unit should cause massive casualties but this is also flawed since RTW phalanx formation allows the unit to instantly turn their sarissas around which would not be possible IRL.:wall:

Horses are not intelligent beings as such. they do not see a bunch of spears and get afraid, like we do. To a horse, a human coming at it or standing still with or without a spear is the same. It is a human with some implement, unless one of those stupid and untrained animals that small girls spoil it will not care. Same with people, whether or not they hold spears is irrelevent to the horse, it is not intelligent enough to recognise the spears as a danger, it just sees a wall of people. However, it will not voluntarily run into such, it can be trained however.

Remember horses are prey and their reflex is to flee predators; 1 they do not see humans as such, 2 they do not attack anything- especially not a mass of people.

Thios is why trained warhorses that will not shy away from a mass of people or will even kick and bite (and perform dressage on people lying on the ground, dressage is derived from the equistrian art of fighting on horseback as still trained in Vienna) were so expensive (an expensive way of committing suicide against trained and disciplined infantry).

Hope that clarifies things a bit, apart from my other qualifications and knowledge I worked as a handyman etc at a riding centre while studying (oh was that fun, me and 27 girls from 18- 38:2thumbsup:).

Warhorses generally go where they are told to. That is the point of the extensive training that they are given.
On a less realistic note I used to do English Civil War battle re-enactments - I was a pikeman carrying a 17 foot long pike complete with steel tip. On numerous occaisions we were "charged" by cavalry and several times things got rather too enthusiastic and the horses penetrated into our formation (mainly because we did not want to injure them....). The horses did not seem too concerned that they were presented with a formation of bristling pike and these horses, while trained were not warhorses by any stretch of the imagination.

kurt

Well on one hand medievial knights horses werent afraid of riding into spears right on, but on the other hand the horses in the Eb timeframe were smaller and cavallery wasnt used to head on atacks at the enemy.

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Originally Posted by seienchin

Well on one hand medievial knights horses werent afraid of riding into spears right on, but on the other hand the horses in the Eb timeframe were smaller and cavallery wasnt used to head on atacks at the enemy.

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You certainly forgot about the Kataphraktoi... they carry more armour than the knight... by weight...

Horses can become accustomed to the smell of camels, so I dont think training them to run onto spears would be a problem, even if it were needed, especially if you also trained them to trust their armour.

OTOH, most people wouldnt be foolish enough to charge onto spears without a very good reason, and the constraints of the RTW system are quite severe, so its a debate with limited practicality to our purpose, although quite interesting.

Well, the OP wants to add scare cavalry to Phalanxes, which I in no way see as realistic. A horse it as afraid of any wall of men even with no weapons. And if trained will charge that unit spears or not, they do not see and understand the danger of spears- they are stupid- if the unit had lions or wolves, the horse will be even more reluctant, for those things it recognises as dangers- not spears.

Well, you could change the mount effect to horse +2 or something instead of adding frighten mount to the attributes. Granted this will not scare the horses but it will dispatch them quicker and cause a casualty induced rout quicker which would be similar to the frighten attribute. And it should stop the routing previous to engagement from the rear of the phalanx(insert 5th grade joke here:laugh4:). Personally, I think the phalanx units are slightly overpowered as it is but its your game. Adjust it how you will enjoy it most. My 2 cents.

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Originally Posted by Antonivs Silvicola

Well, you could change the mount effect to horse +2 or something instead of adding frighten mount to the attributes. Granted this will not scare the horses but it will dispatch them quicker and cause a casualty induced rout quicker which would be similar to the frighten attribute. And it should stop the routing previous to engagement from the rear of the phalanx(insert 5th grade joke here:laugh4:). Personally, I think the phalanx units are slightly overpowered as it is but its your game. Adjust it how you will enjoy it most. My 2 cents.

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I actually toned down the phalangitai wielders by -4, so they are more prone to be violated by katanks...

But adding frighten_mounted seems also work from behind.... that's the point...

EDIT : The example I show on the first was taken from multiplayer EDU, which I forgot to cut their first attack off.... as I Only apply this change to singleplayer EDU in my campaign...

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Originally Posted by Cute Wolf

But adding frighten_mounted seems also work from behind.... that's the point...

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Hence the severe limitations of the system. But I think to make horses frightened of a pointy stick, even just from the front, is to underestimate the skill of ancient horseman. All warhorses have to be desensitized to the rigours of combat (we still do it today, albeit mainly for movies :clown: ), and the average horseman would be a far better rider and at controlling his horse, and have a much better relationship, than most contemperary riders. I think the ascertation that horses are afraid of sharp sticks is more a case of dry academic speculation presented as reality-grounded fact. Even written cases of 'fear' arent necassarily above suspicion, due to partisan sources or simply misunderstanding why cavalry troops behaved as they did to spearmen.

But thats largely dry academic speculation on my part too:laugh4:

Elite units such as Spartans, Gaesatae, Royal Guards, and Triarii shouldn't be afraid of phalanxes. I would imagine that recruits would be more afraid of them than veterans.

For example, when facing Gaesatae...
Polybius is quoted to have said, "The appearance of these naked warriors was a terrifying spectacle, for they were all men of splendid physique and in the prime of life."

However,

Dionysius of Halicarnassus recorded, "Our enemies fight naked. What injury could their long hair, their fierce looks, their clashing arms do us? These are mere symbols of barbarian boastfulness."

I have read that horses indeed will not charge into a tightly packed, solid battle line (like a phalanx or shield wall). And that is why javelins and arrows are so useful for the riders- if you can break up the infantry formation a little, than the horse, no longer presented with a solid wall, will indeed charge. Whether or not this is true, I don't know, I've never even been on a horse. But the tactics employed in most battles involving cavalry seem to bear it out.

Now, should horses be "afraid" of phalanxes? I don't think so, whether or not the above is true. Becuase even if it is true it still does not mean the horse is afraid: a horse is not afriad of a wall, but I imagine it would take a lot to get even a very well-trained horse to charge into a wall because it is simply a barrier. I think the same goes for a wall of men. I think a more realistic representation (which I realize is impossible within the constraints of the RTW engine) is if a cavlary unit in the game were ordered to charge the front of a phalanx, it would simply not recognize the order.

Ok, we need sources and maybe somehow modern experiments about whether horses charge into a tight formation or not, because some of us say they do, some say they don't.
I'm pretty shure, that I heard from different historians that they don't and will aks them for sources asap.

@Ziegenpeter
I propose this first...

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Horse is not a cheap animal.... :sweatdrop: and I don't have any...

But if we want to test this, I have an Idea... (no, this test won't kill your horse in question)
1. Collect some old plastic toy swords from your neighbourhood about two dozen or three. Mount them on some long 5 m bamboo rods, or stick.
2. Ride your horse into a large open plain (or a really big backyard)
3. Give each "toy sarissa" to your friends, and try to form a phalanx (give them EB screenshots).
4. Now ride your horse slowly to these bristling wall of "toy sarrisa"
5. See if your horse want to going deeper into the spearwall or not... I'll wait your test result... :laugh4:

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But, nobody want to use my suggestion and do that experiment... :no:

Well yeah, I will ask some of my neighbours, if I could borrow a few of their well trained warhorses they still got somewhere in the attic, then ask my buddies to dig out their plastic sarissas from the cellar and off we go...
Are you serious?

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Originally Posted by ziegenpeter

Ok, we need sources and maybe somehow modern experiments about whether horses charge into a tight formation or not, because some of us say they do, some say they don't.
I'm pretty shure, that I heard from different historians that they don't and will aks them for sources asap.

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The horses I worked with at the riding centre would not.

However, they can be trained to do so. Riot Police as well as some re-enactors' horses do so. At Hastings a few of the best riders with the most well-trained horses will ride up to the enemy formation and slowly use the body mass of the horse to push through. I believe that is what Riot Police do as well. That is not charging though...

However, that is not the point of the OP. His point was whether sarissae units should scare horses and I maintain a resounding no!! for the reasons I have stated above, but that no one seems to have read.

Instead the discussion has deviated into whether horses can be trained to charge solid masses of men. They can, historical evidence tells is so. But they will by nature not do so, they have to be trained intensely.

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Originally Posted by alexanderthegreater

This discussion intrigues me. Some claims have been made that horses wont charge into a row of spears, but what is the truth of this?
It should be easily testeble, if you have a horse lol.
I do know that horses wont run into mobs of people. But you can train them to do it. The riot police, for example.
So can you train horses to charge into men and/or pike formations? and if so, was ancient cavalry trained to do this?
Isnt chaeronae an example of well trained cavalry succesfully charging a (hoplite) phalanx?

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i owe horses... and NO, I wont ''test'' the truth of this! But I can tell you that naturally, that is, without proper training, a horse will never trample a man purpusfully. but of coooorse, they can easily be trained for any kind of use... train them to charge in a wall of spear, and they'll do it, even if that's mean their death... it's a matter of trust. the horse trust his cavalier, so he'll listen him ''nearly'' no matter what...

i'm no proffessional of history, that's just an hobby, but I can talk a whole lot about horses!

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Originally Posted by Duguntz

the horse trust his cavalier, so he'll listen him ''nearly'' no matter what...

i'm no proffessional of history, that's just an hobby, but I can talk a whole lot about horses!

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That's all we need duguntz... as I know you have spent a lot of your time caring horses..... so, we didn't need to add frighten_mounted to sarrissa units... that's all, thanks.....

(and going on my suggestion using plastic sarrisa as a training method? :laugh4: they are non lethal to horse...)

With pleasure pal! You know the funny thing with your plastic sarrisas? i was thinkin' exactly the same while writting my reply... :yes:

The horse does not care about you holding a spear or not. It cannot see and distinguish- just like any game animal will be frightened by any man, not just a man with a rifle/shotgun. Thing is, as long as animals do not use tools they will not recognise such (a weapon is but a tool- for killing). You can teach a horse to recognise the whip, its food bucket etc, but you would be really dumb to train your horse to recognise and fear spears. As I have said many times in this thread (and now finally with somebody else who knows horses); 1. horses are dumb, 2. horses will not charge a solid obstacle or massive formation voluntarily, 3. horses can be trained to do the latter, but 4. because they are dumb it makes no difference to them whether or not the unit is holding a spear as they do not percieve that as a threat.

Concluding, adding fear to sarrisae units is irrelevant and would make them even more overpowered.

BTW; I love horses, but they are as a general rule not too smart.

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Originally Posted by Macilrille

I would say no, fright is something instinctive; a shying away from fire, elephants or camels if you are a horse. And from berserkers if you are a human, the anormal and dangerous, by sheer instingt like you shy away from a snake or tarantula or get goosebumps or whatever, something that can only be overcome by bravery or training.

Spears deterring cavalry is not from fright- they are no more frightening than any other wall of men to a horse. It is the rider thinking "Hmmm... if I charge unto long and pointy things we will die, I better circle round them or charge somewhere else", it is not from fright, just sheer tactical sense.

Let us not mix the two. Phalanxes are over-effective already, no need to add something instinctive that is no worse than any other massive and tight formation of infantry.

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its well known that horses don't like to charge into walls of pointy objects.

Is it?

Yes, but no more so than into any other wall of men. I challenge you to come forth with a source that counters my argument from working 5 years with horses; and I tell you that horses fear men holding spears no more than other men- just like game animals do not fear armed men more than others.

Horses are not users of tools, so they do not recognise such. I already listed it all.

Perhaps that is not the point he is trying to make. Surely, a horse does recognize that a man with a sarissa seems to be bigger than one with a sword?

No it does not. It sees a man.
And while horses does not like to charge into massive formations of men, spears/pike/sarrisae does not frighten the horse more than the man would.

A wolf would frighten it, or a lion, something it instinctively recognises as a threat. That frightens it, fright is instinctive behavior in Humans and Horses.

Wolves, lions etc has preyed on horses for millenia, sarrisae has not and is thus not ingrained in its instinctive behavior as threatening and consequently not eliciting the instinctive reaction; fright. If it was it would be hard for the rider to use a spear himself as well.

Warhorses are trained to overcome any fears they might have - what is the point of having a warhorse that decides itself where it is going to charge?
In WW1 they had to cope with constant artillery barrages, tanks, machine guns, barbed wire, trenches and poison gas - do you think a few pointy sticks is going to worry them?

kurt

First of all, you are wrong, they are trained to not fear anything the owner anticipates them meeting, which I have stated numerous times in this thread. But that is not really the issue. The issue is whether Sarrisae Ûbermenschen" should have Frighten-Cavalry added.

So how does your argument support adding Frighten to the sarrisae already-superhuman phalanxes?

I'm not attempting to convince you that phalanxes should be able to frighten cavalry. I'm just trying to make sense of the point of spears if horses do not fear them. Felled trees are not natural enemies of horses, but they will avoid them rather then charge into them.

My question is, if horses do not even recognize spears and pikes as objects, then why do we not hear more stories of mass impalements?

I am not certain I understand your question and I am getting fed up with the persistence of this thread.
But I shall try and reply to what I think you are asking.

1. The OP is in fact arguing that sarrisae should frigthen horses, which is what I am arguing against.

2. The point of spears is; that if your unit has spears you can actually do damage to a horse and rider. With a sword or axe you have more difficulty, especially if the rider is equipped with a spear/lance/kontos. Further, a grounded, spear/pike will in fact lead to the horse or rider impaling itself by its own speed if charging you from the front. Which is why cavalry belongs on the flanks, but that is another story. Bows achieve the same effect, you can injure horse and rider without them reaching you. English longbow and Swiss-German Pike were the vanguishers of knights for a reason. Further, spears are a cheap way of achieving this and requires less training to use than the Longbow while cheaper than the X-bow. That is the point of spears.

3. You hear stories of mass impalements if you study medieval military history. However, smart generals and cavalrists will use cavalry on the flank to try and get around or behind the enemy to hit an exposed flank or from behind. As for horses not impaling themselves on spears and pikes without their riders if that is what you are asking, horses are not predators, they do not charge humans whether or not the Human is holding a spear. Except if it is a trained warhorse with a rider (if overconfident knight, charging spears, see point 2).

4. Felled trees? What has that to do with anything? Have you at all read what I have written all through this thread? Horses will not voluntarily charge anything, they are prey, not predators. However, "not voluntarily charge" is very far from the instinctive reaction we call "Fright" that makes us flee. Which is what this is all about. A horse will gladly stand right next to a fallen tree. try and make it stand right next to a lion or pack of wolves, those are beings that elicits Fright in a horse, trees do not. It will not charge the tree, for horses are not aggressive animals, nor predators, but it will not fear it either.


Now, with all due respect I sense that you and possibly others, are merely arguing for the sake of arguing; not to prove a point, support it, reach consensus or anything else, but because you enjoy it.

I fail to see one supporting argument for sarrisae supermen (already overpowered) scaring horses, actually eliciting the instinctive reaction; Fright. All I see is "but... but..."

So, to me the debate is concluded. I will not waste more time on arguing for the sake of it.

If those with no arguments "for" wish to continue in their belief, so be it. Nothing I can say and has not already said will convince them.

I wonder how many people posting here has actually ridden or worked with horses or know anything about them except that people ride them...

:applause:

Well said Macilrille

If you think I am merely being obstinant, then you have misunderstood again. I have no intention of trying to convince anyone that sarissae should frighten horses. Rather, I was posing a simple question on the point of a polearm.

I expect no answer. If you do not wish to continue, you are free to do so.

Ok guys. Heres my "expertise" on the debate. I am a Comanche/Cherokee native american. I have been around horses literally my entire life. Ive been riding since I was 4. A normal horse will not charge into a solid object(mass of men or otherwise). Its just not in their nature as has been stated. However, a horse with appropriate training(lots of training) will do almost anything its rider comands it to. Its all about training and trust. Horses are not any "dumber" than any other animal but they are very loyal and trusting and will do anything for their master. If hes ignorant enough to charge a wall of death, the horse will follow without question(again with proper training). In my opinion it has much more to do with horse/rider relationship than anything else. Feel free to criticize me if you wish, but I expect you to have more experience with horses if you feel the need. And sarrisae should NOT frighten mounts.:thumbsdown:

Ah no pro then AVSM.

I am surprised and very happy to have a Native American here- especially since we agree :yes:

/me moves on.