Adding Frighten_mounted to Sarissa units

[Macilrille]

I would say no, fright is something instinctive; a shying away from fire, elephants or camels if you are a horse. And from berserkers if you are a human, the anormal and dangerous, by sheer instingt like you shy away from a snake or tarantula or get goosebumps or whatever, something that can only be overcome by bravery or training.

Spears deterring cavalry is not from fright- they are no more frightening than any other wall of men to a horse. It is the rider thinking "Hmmm... if I charge unto long and pointy things we will die, I better circle round them or charge somewhere else", it is not from fright, just sheer tactical sense.

Let us not mix the two. Phalanxes are over-effective already, no need to add something instinctive that is no worse than any other massive and tight formation of infantry.

[ziegenpeter]

Spears deterring cavalry is not from fright- they are no more frightening than any other wall of men to a horse. It is the rider thinking "Hmmm... if I charge unto long and pointy things we will die, I better circle round them or charge somewhere else", it is not from fright, just sheer tactical sense.

No I think its exactly that wall of pointy things that is much more frightening than other walls (to the HORSE!!)

[Cute Wolf]

No I think its exactly that wall of pointy things that is much more frightening than other walls (to the HORSE!!)

As I see more clearly, sarissas have double pointy thingies, the one at the back is still frightening to horse... don't they? :hammer:

[A Very Super Market]

We are still animals. Let us compare.

Go to your kitchen. See those knives? Those can kill you easily. But they aren't doing anything, and are just sitting there. You're fine. If someone was throwing them at you, you would be scared.

Expand.

To a horse, a phalanx is just some odd object. They don't really care. A war horse does not get spooked by the mere sight of danger, which the horses might not even recognize the phalanx as at a distance. It's only when they get ordered to charge into a phalanx do the alerts pop off and they start freaking out.

[alexanderthegreater]

This discussion intrigues me. Some claims have been made that horses wont charge into a row of spears, but what is the truth of this?
It should be easily testeble, if you have a horse lol.
I do know that horses wont run into mobs of people. But you can train them to do it. The riot police, for example.
So can you train horses to charge into men and/or pike formations? and if so, was ancient cavalry trained to do this?
Isnt chaeronae an example of well trained cavalry succesfully charging a (hoplite) phalanx?

[Cute Wolf]

Horse is not a cheap animal.... and I don't have any...

But if we want to test this, I have an Idea... (no, this test won't kill your horse in question)
1. Collect some old plastic toy swords from your neighbourhood about two dozen or three. Mount them on some long 5 m bamboo rods, or stick.
2. Ride your horse into a large open plain (or a really big backyard)
3. Give each "toy sarissa" to your friends, and try to form a phalanx (give them EB screenshots).
4. Now ride your horse slowly to these bristling wall of "toy sarrisa"
5. See if your horse want to going deeper into the spearwall or not... I'll wait your test result...

[ziegenpeter]

Well I think that horses can be trained to ride into a bulk of people, but not into a wall of pikes. Or at least that how I remember it from the books I read. I guess the pointier the wall is, the more reluctant are the horses...

[Cute Wolf]

@Ziegenpeter
I propose this first...

Horse is not a cheap animal.... and I don't have any...

But if we want to test this, I have an Idea... (no, this test won't kill your horse in question)
1. Collect some old plastic toy swords from your neighbourhood about two dozen or three. Mount them on some long 5 m bamboo rods, or stick.
2. Ride your horse into a large open plain (or a really big backyard)
3. Give each "toy sarissa" to your friends, and try to form a phalanx (give them EB screenshots).
4. Now ride your horse slowly to these bristling wall of "toy sarrisa"
5. See if your horse want to going deeper into the spearwall or not... I'll wait your test result...

But, nobody want to use my suggestion and do that experiment...

[Dutchhoplite]

Isnt chaeronae an example of well trained cavalry succesfully charging a (hoplite) phalanx?

I rather doubt that Alexander broke the Theban Sacred band with his cavalry.

[ziegenpeter]

I rather doubt that Alexander broke the Theban Sacred band with his cavalry.

...from the front.
Plus, had they Sarissas? Don't think so.

[Macilrille]

Horses are not intelligent beings as such. they do not see a bunch of spears and get afraid, like we do. To a horse, a human coming at it or standing still with or without a spear is the same. It is a human with some implement, unless one of those stupid and untrained animals that small girls spoil it will not care. Same with people, whether or not they hold spears is irrelevent to the horse, it is not intelligent enough to recognise the spears as a danger, it just sees a wall of people. However, it will not voluntarily run into such, it can be trained however.

Remember horses are prey and their reflex is to flee predators; 1 they do not see humans as such, 2 they do not attack anything- especially not a mass of people.

Thios is why trained warhorses that will not shy away from a mass of people or will even kick and bite (and perform dressage on people lying on the ground, dressage is derived from the equistrian art of fighting on horseback as still trained in Vienna) were so expensive (an expensive way of committing suicide against trained and disciplined infantry).

Hope that clarifies things a bit, apart from my other qualifications and knowledge I worked as a handyman etc at a riding centre while studying (oh was that fun, me and 27 girls from 18- 38).

[Duguntz]

This discussion intrigues me. Some claims have been made that horses wont charge into a row of spears, but what is the truth of this?
It should be easily testeble, if you have a horse lol.
I do know that horses wont run into mobs of people. But you can train them to do it. The riot police, for example.
So can you train horses to charge into men and/or pike formations? and if so, was ancient cavalry trained to do this?
Isnt chaeronae an example of well trained cavalry succesfully charging a (hoplite) phalanx?

i owe horses... and NO, I wont ''test'' the truth of this! But I can tell you that naturally, that is, without proper training, a horse will never trample a man purpusfully. but of coooorse, they can easily be trained for any kind of use... train them to charge in a wall of spear, and they'll do it, even if that's mean their death... it's a matter of trust. the horse trust his cavalier, so he'll listen him ''nearly'' no matter what...

i'm no proffessional of history, that's just an hobby, but I can talk a whole lot about horses!

[Cute Wolf]

the horse trust his cavalier, so he'll listen him ''nearly'' no matter what...

i'm no proffessional of history, that's just an hobby, but I can talk a whole lot about horses!

That's all we need duguntz... as I know you have spent a lot of your time caring horses..... so, we didn't need to add frighten_mounted to sarrissa units... that's all, thanks.....

(and going on my suggestion using plastic sarrisa as a training method? they are non lethal to horse...)

[Celtic_Punk]

I would say no, fright is something instinctive; a shying away from fire, elephants or camels if you are a horse. And from berserkers if you are a human, the anormal and dangerous, by sheer instingt like you shy away from a snake or tarantula or get goosebumps or whatever, something that can only be overcome by bravery or training.

Spears deterring cavalry is not from fright- they are no more frightening than any other wall of men to a horse. It is the rider thinking "Hmmm... if I charge unto long and pointy things we will die, I better circle round them or charge somewhere else", it is not from fright, just sheer tactical sense.

Let us not mix the two. Phalanxes are over-effective already, no need to add something instinctive that is no worse than any other massive and tight formation of infantry.

its well known that horses don't like to charge into walls of pointy objects.

[Macilrille]

Is it?

Yes, but no more so than into any other wall of men. I challenge you to come forth with a source that counters my argument from working 5 years with horses; and I tell you that horses fear men holding spears no more than other men- just like game animals do not fear armed men more than others.

Horses are not users of tools, so they do not recognise such. I already listed it all.

[A Very Super Market]

Perhaps that is not the point he is trying to make. Surely, a horse does recognize that a man with a sarissa seems to be bigger than one with a sword?

[Macilrille]

No it does not. It sees a man.
And while horses does not like to charge into massive formations of men, spears/pike/sarrisae does not frighten the horse more than the man would.

A wolf would frighten it, or a lion, something it instinctively recognises as a threat. That frightens it, fright is instinctive behavior in Humans and Horses.

Wolves, lions etc has preyed on horses for millenia, sarrisae has not and is thus not ingrained in its instinctive behavior as threatening and consequently not eliciting the instinctive reaction; fright. If it was it would be hard for the rider to use a spear himself as well.

[kurt190]

Warhorses are trained to overcome any fears they might have - what is the point of having a warhorse that decides itself where it is going to charge?
In WW1 they had to cope with constant artillery barrages, tanks, machine guns, barbed wire, trenches and poison gas - do you think a few pointy sticks is going to worry them?

kurt

[Macilrille]

First of all, you are wrong, they are trained to not fear anything the owner anticipates them meeting, which I have stated numerous times in this thread. But that is not really the issue. The issue is whether Sarrisae Ûbermenschen" should have Frighten-Cavalry added.

So how does your argument support adding Frighten to the sarrisae already-superhuman phalanxes?