Arche Seleukeia - A Guide by/with Hax

Have you always liked micromanagement?

Are you interested in killing your enemies in all kinds of climates?

Have you always felt like you wanted your own imperial cult?!


Then ARCHE SELEUKEIA might just be something for you!!!




Hello everyone!

I see myself as the resident AS specialist thingie, and with many threads running around about how to "properly" play a Seleucid campaign, I took it as my personal task to write a guide on how to play the Arche Seleukeia. I'll divide this guide in a few little paragraphs:

1) Up and downsides
2) Kickoff: Getting the campaign rolling
3) Units and such!
4) On the mid-campaign
5) Internal Problems and How to Deal with Them

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I - Up and downsides

In every campaign, there are many positive and negative sides. The Casse have nothing to do with any other faction for at least twenty years, the Romani have a well-protected and financially stable area, Epeiros is one of the few factions to get elephants west of India, Hayasdan and Pontos...well..let's say that there is no boredom in those campaigns, and Saka...nevermind.

But a campaign as the Arche Seleukeia is something really interesting! Let's mention a few things:

Upsides:
- Factional units available from Greece to India and from Tajikistan to Sudan
- No shortage of regional troops
- Control of the immensely rich Iranian plateau
- Control of the most advanced nation

Downsides:
- An overstretched empire, rife with corruption
- Enemies virtually everywhere
- A large enemy waiting to gnaw away at your Syrian cities, and one that control the rich provinces of Egypt!

Of the downsides that I mentioned, only the first one is something that might kill your campaign. Fighting against corruption is one of the most time-consuming (and sometimes unrewarding) aspects of a campaign in which you control a large portion of the map.

However, what's really important is the way you look at these "problems". When I was unused to dealing with corruption, I usually got really annoyed at the lack of income and quit my campaign somewhere in the 40's.

II - Kickoff: Getting the campaign running

There are a few basic tactics that you should remember when playing a Seleucid campaign. I've seen posts describing possibilities; letting your empire crumble, retreating to Anatolia/Babylonia/whatever, giving your eastern settlements away. Keep in mind though, that when you are roleplaying, you are actually the Basileos of the Seleucid Empire. I don't think that his/your subjects would have appreciated it if you just turned a blind eye to their suffering. Such an action would probably lead to your assassination.

What this guide will deal with is how to protect your empire without the unnecessary loss of cities. Therefore, I will now cut your empire in segments:

Anatolia
Syria
Babylonia
Persia I
Persia II
Margiana

Anatolia consists of these cities: Sardis, Ipsos, Mazaka
Syria consists of these cities: Antiocheia, Damaskos, Edessa
Babylonia consists of these cities: Karkathiokerta, Arbela, Seleukeia, Babylon, Charax
Persia I consists of these cities: Ekbatana, Susa
Persia II consists of these cities: Apameia, Zadrakata, Persepolis, Gabai, Karmana, Hekatompylos
Margiana consists of these cities: Asaak, Antiocheia-Margiana, Marakanda, Alexandreia-Eschate, Alexandreia-Ariana, Prophthasia

I will quickly say a couple of things about these provinces/segments:

Anatolia: Money-maker. Especially when you take the other cities (Tarsos, Side, Halikarnassos, Pergamon+, Ankyra+, Pokr-Hayk+)

Syria: You should try to hold on to these cities as good as you can. This is vital to keeping the Ptolemaioi away. Should Antiocheia fall, you will spend most your time, with limited resources, trying
to hold the Ptolemaioi out of Babylonia.

Babylonia: Don't lose these cities, especially Seleukeia and Babylon. Babylon starts out with a type IV government, but if I were you, I'd try and build a level I government, so you can access your sexy factional troops. Karkathiokerta is good for money, so keep it level IV and train a local governor over there: they are usually good at maintaining cities. Seleukeia and Babylon are important for your troops. Arbela is a good city to train Caucasian units. Also, don't forget about Charax!

Persia I: Susa and Ekbatana. Not much to see here. Just don't lose them. They don't have that many interesting regional/factional units, so you should probably build a lot of markets and schools in them, to train your family members when they come of age.

Persia II: These cities are absolutely vital. I'll make an updated map of what kinds of goodies you can find in these cities specifically, but seriously, you should hold on to these city. They have a lot of mines and (especially during the midgame) will give a huge boost to your economy, when properly handeled.

Margiana: These cities are the trampolines for the steppes: you can find phalangitai, thureophoroi, peltastai as well as horse archers and foot archers here. These cities you will find important too (especially in the late game, when you have to take those pesky Saka cities in the middle of nowhere).

This is the guide I use when I try to get my Seleucid campaign up and running:

Turn 1
1) Move the capital to Ekbatana/Susa/Seleukeia.
2) Lower taxes in whatever city needs them (usually these cities are Alexandreia-Eschate, Marakanda, Hekatompylos, Asaak*, Sardis and Ipsos).
3) Raise taxes wherever possible. Automatically raise taxes in Seleukeia, Babylon, Charax, Susa, Ekbatana, Persepolis, Apameia, Gabai. Yellow faces are good, blue are not really okay, red is bad (but you knew that).
4) Drain Antiocheia-Margiane of (most) troops; send them north to Marakanda. Stabilize Marakanda, then stabilize Alexandreia-Eschate. Build sanitization in Alexandreia-Eschate/one other city.
5) Lose Asaak. Seriously. The Pahlava will assist you with this. I've tried to hold on to that city, and it's virtually impossible.
At this point, an alternative advise is given by Titus Marcellus Scato:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

1. On Turn 1, move the archer unit out of Asaak, and ATTACK the Pahlavan army with it! Why? Because attacking Pahlava will allow you to keep Baktria, Hayasdan, and Pontus as your allies! Now, fight the battle yourself. Put the archers on top of a hill, but near the treeline. Switch off skirmish mode. Now, fire on the horse archer units as soon as they come into range, and ignore the Pahlava FM when he charges, just keep shooting. You should kill nearly as many men as you lose yourself, despite being massively outnumbered and outclassed.

5b) While Asaak is being besieged, build walls in Hekatompylos. Also build walls in Marakanda and A. Eschateia
6) Take all units (save the akontistai) from Sardis and Ipsos, move them to Antiocheia. Take your peltastai from Mazaka, do the same. Take your phalangitai and sphendonetai from Damaskos and move them towards Antiocheia as well. End turn.

Turn 2
8) Check your cities (this takes some time) and build sanitizations wherever possible (as far as your treasury allows)
9) Do anything to prevent cities from rebelling (but don't move your capital!). Especially Eschateia is a difficult city to properly keep under control, but y'know..you can get over that one. It's not the end of the world if you lose it.
10) Spend all your money on improvements, don't bother with units. I have a list of good buildings that I will write down at the end of the page
11) End turn

Turn 3
12) You should now have some more money. A good investment to make would probably be to build a mine somewhere. I'd say Gabai. It's pretty safe and not that far from your capital. And it'll give you a good economical boost in eight turns.
13) Your soldiers in Anatolia should have probably stumbled upon Tarsos by now. If I were you, I'd take that army from Antiocheia and merge them with those from Anatolia at the bridge near Tarsos. There, you have quite a sizable force now. Siege (but don't assault) Tarsos. It'll surrender anyway.
14) Be mindful of your borders, try and check what the Ptolemaioi are doing. Same goes for the Pahlava.

Turn 4
15) You have lost Asaak by now, but your walls in Hekatompylos should be fine by now.
16) Be a bit creative, use your spies a bit, try to get trade-rights with KH and Epeiros, the basic stuff.

Turn 5
17) Here be boredom, generally. A good thing to do now is to improve your military structures in Apameia. Focus on defensive buildings in Zadrakata and Hekatompylos for now. You can get pantodapoi phalangitai in Apameia, which you should probably send to Hekatompylos (2/3 units are fine)
18) Continue sieging Tarsos...to..

Turn 6
19) Tarsos captured (if you're not as incompetent as Alexandros Argeades, that is). Exterminate 'em. This isn't really a time to be pleasant. Hey, if they wanted to live, they should have surrendered control of Mikras Asia a long time ago.
20) Take as many soldiers as you can from Tarsos to Side and do the same (eg, besiege).

Turn 7
21) Is everything still okay? What's difficult about playing the AS is that you have to be diverse, as your empire. You need to be able to switch from focusing on one front directly to the other.

Turn 8
22) Not much to see here, move along, build more improvements (don't waste any money on units, seriously)

Turn 9
23) Mine's done! Or at least, it's supposed to be. You should notice an increase in your treasury. What's good about having one mine done is the fact that you now have more money to spend on..more mines! Seriously, mines are very very very imporant. VERY IMPORTANT. I think you already knew this, though!

Turn 10, 11, 12, etc
24) Exterminate Side. Check your Syrian front. Once you have taken Side, you can start to focus on other things than just buildings. I usually send an army towards Sidon no later than summer 267 BC. From Sidon, it's just a short trip to Hierosolyma. Take that city, and you can effectively check the Ptolemaioi. From there, you control the Levant. Time for your first naval invasion: Salamis. Salamis is great; it has mines, a great trading position and even the possibility to a (basic) fleet. If you have succesfully run through these steps, things will probably start to look up for you.

But Hax! I lost Marakanda and Alexandreia-Eschate, and the Pahlava are sieging both Zadrakata and Hekatompylos! What should I do?!

There are several ways to play a good game whilst "losing" Marakanda and Alexandreia-Eschate. Titus Marcellus Scato explains:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

2. I'd still be inclined to give Marakanda and Alexandreia-Eschate to Baktria on Turn 2, destroying all buildings first and moving your troops out. Why? Two reasons.
A, it gives Baktria a border with Pahlava. If Pahlava attacks Marakanda, they'll end up at war with Baktria, which would be great from your point of view, you could use the help! Also, it removes your border with the Saka, enabling you to make peace with the Saka. You don't want to fight the Saka until after Pahlava has been destroyed.

B, giving these territories to Baktria forces Baktria into a savage war with the Saka. The big Baktrian full stack army, instead of going after Kophen and from there into India, will likely be recalled to go to Sogdiana to fight the Saka instead! This stops Baktria expanding into India and making themselves rich, and keeps them busy fighting the Saka on your behalf, which is what you want them to do.

The idea is to sucker Baktria into fighting against the Saka and Pahlava instead of going to India. To accomplish this, it's worth giving them two poor provinces. It's a strategic trade-off. They are your ally, and nominally still your subjects, so it's still good roleplaying to give them territory to defend.

Well eh..don't forget that a large part of running through the first turns as Seleukeia also has something to do with luck. The basic units you'll need when defending cities are these:

Archers
Slingers
Phalangitai

Usually just two of each, and you'll be fine. Use your phalangitai to block off the streets. Archers behind them, slingers on/near the walls.

Also, losing Alexandreia-Eschate and Marakanda isn't horrible. I managed to lose Zadrakata as well. Don't forget that with basic planning and tactics you can get far. Take units from cities in which they are useless and move them to cities where they are to be used properly.

In the worst case, (which is basically losing all your cities save Seleukeia, with a debt of -200000, an incompetent lame and wounded faction leader and three fullstacks of Ptolemaioi and Pahlava knocking at your door) just start a new campaign. There's no shame in that.

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Some more basic tips!

- Sanitizations are your friends. So are askleipieion. They give ten percent happiness bonus to health, cost only 1600 and a year (4 turns) to complete.
- Temples: Seleukos and Mithras are good for your outer regions. Inner regions, Marduk and Artemis are good. Seleukos and Mithras give law bonuses (which combat corruption), Marduk and Artemis give a bonus to your income (as well as a stunning 30% happiness bonus for Marduk on tier 3)
- Units: Don't restrict yourself to marching your expensive Klerouchoi and Pezhetairoi from Seleukeia and Antiocheia! Use whatever the land gives you; there are great units available in Iran and the steppes.
- Is your city happy? Tax 'em. Still happy? Tax 'em more.
- Got a bit of an overflow of money? Mines mines mines mines mines.
- As soon as your core provinces are making more money (due to mines mines mines mines mines), build garrisons. They will battle corruption, causing you to make more money, as well as give you a happiness bonus!
- Build paved roads in your safe provinces in the core of your empire to connect them and send armies faster.*
- Mines = Temples to Seleukos; you'll be minting coins in those provinces after all so they'd better be dedicated to the founder of AS. Rp-wise, that's how I justify tearing down some temples.*

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III - Units and such!

In this paragraph, I will discuss the numerous units you have. Because hell, you have a lot. There are at least six different types of archers, dependent on the region you're in, as well as factional units recruitable virtually anywhere, east of Kyrene and Dalmatia. I'll go over some basic army compositions here:

City garrisons:

Limit these to skirmishers (akontistai, gand-i palta, bnei shevet 'Arabim) or general cheap units (pantodapoi).

City defenders:
There is a basic composition that will prove incredibly useful and cheap.
2 units of pantodapoi phalangitai
2 units of archers (depending on your region)
2 units of slingers (depending on your region)

Pantodapoi Phalangitai are great. Why? They:

- Can block off city streets
- Are virtually impervious to arrows from the front(!)
- Have AP (armor-piercing) secondary weapons

Standing armies [Full stacks](these are the ones I use, at least. I've found them to be satisfying)

Early game [265 - 245]:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

2x Family Member
2x Klerouchoi Phalangitai
4x Pantodapoi Phalangitai
2x Thureophoroi
2x regional line infantry
2x regional archers
2x regional slingers
2x Prodromoi
2x Hippakontistai

Mid-game [245 - 225]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

2x Family Member
2x Pezhetairoi
4x Klerouchoi Phalangitai
2x Thorakitai
2x Thureophoroi/regional line infantry
2x regional archers
2x regional slingers
2x Lonchophoroi Hippeis
2x Prodromoi

Late-game [225 - 205]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

2x Family Member
1x Hetairoi
2x Argyraspides
4x Pezhetairoi
2x Thorakitai
2x regional archers
2x regional slingers
2x Lonchophoroi Hippeis
2x Prodromoi
1x Elephantes Indikoi

Of course, by no means feel restricted by these compositions! I change them around a lot myself (having different kinds of armies dependent on the time of invasion, the region of invasion, the commanding officer (one with a fondness for horses I give more cavalry, one who has campaigned in India might get his own Elephant corps, the Royal Army consists of more Argyraspides and Hypaspistai, etc). You can be creative! Build different armies based on traits, ethnicities, experience, etc.

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IV - On the Mid-campaign

Around the year 250, you should have reached the mid-campaign. The middle part of the campaign is marked by invasions of Egypt, the reclaiming of your lost eastern provinces and the annexation of Anatolia.

Around this time you can experiment some more with your army compositions and many of your cities will have at least reached the minor city level. Paved roads are always good to build, as they decrease corruption and improve trade and marching speed.

V - Internal Problems and How To Deal With Them

There are a few problems that you might encounter when playing as Seleukeia. I'll go over a few of them:

Brigands and pirates: Annoying. Just send out small stacks to deal with them. Autoresolve, play them yourself, it doesn't really matter. They generally won't attack you, but they mess up your trading income.

Corruption: This is a large problem. I mentioned it a few times before, but I'll go over it clearly now:

Almost all temples available to the Seleucid Empire give an increase to law. Law helps to decrease corruption. There are two temples, specifically, that I usually build to deal with this; those to Seleukos or those to Mithras. For more information, check this wonderful guide by Ludens. There are other ways to improve law, though:

1) Build garrisons (the building, I don't mean troops). The first tier gives a 5% bonus, the second a 10%
2) Build colonies. Same bonuses go for these as for the garrisons
3) Use competent and skillful governors. If they have a good management rating (3 and higher), you'll notice an immense increase in income.

Unrest: This might be a huge factor. Especially in your border cities, try to keep at least one spy in to check for other spies. Since your empire is already quite large, cities might easily rebel. Apart from enemy spies, there might also be some other causes: a governor with the "intolerant of other Gods" trait is one that is absolutely horrible and seems to occur too often for my liking. So try to keep track of what your family members are doing. My current ex-faction heir is a miserable failure, so I've sent him to fight Makedonians in some hillbilly Thracian village somewhere.

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*advice given by Poulp'

So this was my basic guide! If anyone has questions or comments or wants to say that my guide totally sucks, feel free to do so.

Great job Hax!

Als mijn tentamens voorbij zijn en t weer rustig/vakantie is, dan ga ik misschien met de Seleucids beginnen.~D

I could handle BI Western Roman Empire so I can probably get quite far.:yes:

~Fluvius

Great work. I've never played the AS, but maybe I'll try them with this guide.

Great guide, a must read for anyone who wants a try at the AS.

Two cents to add:
- build paved roads in your safe provinces in the core of your empire to connect them and send armies faster. (frontline regions can wait)
- Mines = Temples to Seleukos; you'll be minting coins in those provinces after all so they'd better be dedicated to the founder of AS. Rp-wise, that's how I justify tearing down some temples.

Great guide, I'm certainly going to try another Seleucid campaign (I lost my previous one...).

Very good guide! Two tips:

1. On Turn 1, move the archer unit out of Asaak, and ATTACK the Pahlavan army with it! Why? Because attacking Pahlava will allow you to keep Baktria, Hayasdan, and Pontus as your allies! Now, fight the battle yourself. Put the archers on top of a hill, but near the treeline. Switch off skirmish mode. Now, fire on the horse archer units as soon as they come into range, and ignore the Pahlava FM when he charges, just keep shooting. You should kill nearly as many men as you lose yourself, despite being massively outnumbered and outclassed.

2. I'd still be inclined to give Marakanda and Alexandreia-Eschate to Baktria on Turn 2, destroying all buildings first and moving your troops out. Why? Two reasons.

A, it gives Baktria a border with Pahlava. If Pahlava attacks Marakanda, they'll end up at war with Baktria, which would be great from your point of view, you could use the help! Also, it removes your border with the Saka, enabling you to make peace with the Saka. You don't want to fight the Saka until after Pahlava has been destroyed.

B, giving these territories to Baktria forces Baktria into a savage war with the Saka. The big Baktrian full stack army, instead of going after Kophen and from there into India, will likely be recalled to go to Sogdiana to fight the Saka instead! This stops Baktria expanding into India and making themselves rich, and keeps them busy fighting the Saka on your behalf, which is what you want them to do.

The idea is to sucker Baktria into fighting against the Saka and Pahlava instead of going to India. To accomplish this, it's worth giving them two poor provinces. It's a strategic trade-off. They are your ally, and nominally still your subjects, so it's still good roleplaying to give them territory to defend.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fluvius Camillus

Great job Hax!

Als mijn tentamens voorbij zijn en t weer rustig/vakantie is, dan ga ik misschien met de Seleucids beginnen.~D

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Inderdaad, als mijn proefwerkweek voorbij is zal ik ook wel een nieuwe campaign beginnen, de eerste deed ik met een pantodapoi shitstorm op mijn vijanden :laugh4:

Anyway, nice guide :smash:

So THIS is what you've working on, instead of AtB?

How dare you! Now get back to work! :whip:

...

Oh, btw, nice guide! Great job!

We really need more guides like this.

Sticky.

Run Hax! For slavemaster gamegeek has arrived :clown:

Great guide. Even though i never had problems with playing with AS without any special pracausions, this guide will help many, whom are not used to run such a huge empire.

Just one suggestion.
Advice people to move their capital to Seleucia instead of Susa.

It just hurts my eyes and brains that you choose a city not that far away from Seleucia, but so less important at the time:clown::2thumbsup:

Thank you all for reading my guide!

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Very good guide! Two tips:

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Thanks, I'll add them to the Guide soon!

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Just one suggestion.
Advice people to move their capital to Seleucia instead of Susa.

It just hurts my eyes and brains that you choose a city not that far away from Seleucia, but so less important at the time

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There are some places that might deserve the "title" of capital more than Susa or Ekbatana. A good example would be Seleukeia Pieria (which isn't in the game). Seleukeia on the Tigris (normal Seleukeia) is also one of those cities that yeah, might deserve that position. I usually take Ekbatana as my de-jure capital, due to the fact that it contains the faction leader, as well as being a central location and Seleukeia on the Tigris as my de facto capital.

It's your choice really. Seleukeia is a bit too far to the west for me, but I'll check it out anyway.

Quote:

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So THIS is what you've working on, instead of AtB?

How dare you! Now get back to work! :whip:

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We need to properly represent the descendants of Seleukos in AtB! This is work!

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Two cents to add:
- build paved roads in your safe provinces in the core of your empire to connect them and send armies faster. (frontline regions can wait)
- Mines = Temples to Seleukos; you'll be minting coins in those provinces after all so they'd better be dedicated to the founder of AS. Rp-wise, that's how I justify tearing down some temples.

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A very good point! Thanks a lot!

One thing I try to do is to set up MICs that can recruit HAs - invaluable auxiliaries to any army. Dahae Riders, while a little expensive, do a superb skirmishing job and are amazing at finishing charges to the enemy's rear and chasing down routers (30% lethal lance).

What do you mean no interesting regionals in Susa? You get the Khuveshavagan (excellent cavalry) and the Thanvare Parsig, two units that make excellent additions to eastern armies.

I'm requesting this be linked to in the Gameplay Guides thread.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skullheadhq

Run Hax! For slave master gamegeek has arrived :clown:

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Sigged.

EDIT: Link is up here: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=103424

Wow.... I never tought that attacking Pahlava early can give you a nice Baktrian subjects under indirect command..... :thumbsup:

BTW, try to modify your descr_strat in the campaign folder, and give the pirate and brigand spawning values to 999, and you'll have one nice, clean empire, free from brigands and pirates (so you'll fought mostly another faction's trops, put aside some occasional rebel town taking)

A small useful thing I've discovered in my seleucid campaign (pretty consistent since it happened 3 times out of 3):

If you engage thde Parthian army outside Asaak in turn 1, they won't go for Asaak on their turn(even if it's almost devoid of troops, once even had it as low as 20/160 spearmen and 40/160 archers on huge after the battle) but rahter attack and take Zadrakata, which is pretty much undefendable at this stage(not enough time to get any troops there from neighbouring cities.

The good thing about parthia taking Zadrakata is that they will soon get a common border with Hayasadan(sp?) which tends to lower the frequency of attacks on your possesion.

The bad thing is that the common border with Parthia extends quite a lot into areas you wouldn't normally have to defend (I've suffered the occasional attack on Ekbaktana).

I started a Seleucid campaign and attacked the Pahlava stack outside Asaak. This way they didn't attack Asaak yet, and I let the city rebel while I drew my troops back to Zadrakata. The Pahlava tried to take Asaak since, and I even managed to secure a ceasefire (which makes the campaign probably to easy, even with a crazy Epeiros that keeps attacking my Anatolian possesions).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Drag0nUL

A small useful thing I've discovered in my seleucid campaign (pretty consistent since it happened 3 times out of 3):

If you engage thde Parthian army outside Asaak in turn 1, they won't go for Asaak on their turn(even if it's almost devoid of troops, once even had it as low as 20/160 spearmen and 40/160 archers on huge after the battle)

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The Parthians did beseige Asaak in my campaign, after I attacked them, but I only tried it the once.

However, your test seems to prove that the Parthians attack Asaak in order to get a war with you - not because they particularly want Asaak itself! (So it's political motivation, not strategic.) Once at war, they're happy, and will go after any town that happens to take their fancy. Bastards...

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Originally Posted by Titus Marcellus Scato

The Parthians did beseige Asaak in my campaign, after I attacked them, but I only tried it the once.

However, your test seems to prove that the Parthians attack Asaak in order to get a war with you - not because they particularly want Asaak itself! (So it's political motivation, not strategic.) Once at war, they're happy, and will go after any town that happens to take their fancy. Bastards...

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Just curious, what difficulty were you playing on ? I only played on H/M

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Originally Posted by Drag0nUL

Just curious, what difficulty were you playing on ? I only played on H/M

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M/M.

Nice guide, Hax. I hope you could do something similar for other factions as well.

Great guide :yes:

I'm quite far into my current AS campaign. It's a great guide. :2thumbsup:

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Nice guide, Hax. I hope you could do something similar for other factions as well.

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Thanks. Another few of my self-proclaimed specialties are Epeiros and Hayasdan, so perhaps I'll write guides for them as well. A guide for the latter is quite important, I think!

Yeah, I suck at Hayasdan, you should make a guide for them!

Seconded. Hai has good potential: Sturdy Medium infantry, excellent archers, wonderous cavalry.

p.s. In the east, persian hoplitai are the next best thing after smoked cheese.

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Originally Posted by satalexton

Seconded. Hai has good potential: Sturdy Medium infantry, excellent archers, wonderous cavalry.

p.s. In the east, persian hoplitai are the next best thing after smoked cheese.

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When I Play Hayasdan, my game usually developed into Kavakaza Sparabara line guarding line of archers behind, let the enemies charge my men, and I win..... Kardaka are somewhat just for guarding flanks

ADD: And the Royal army only consist of cavalry =p

I usually dont bother with my cities on the boarders in the beginning and disband most of my troops to get way more than 10.000+ every round and than humiliate the ptollis by taking everything except egypt from them. Than I conquer minor asia and cyprus. Having sea trade makes minor asia extrem rich. Just have trading agreements with Macedonia, epeirus or whoever the heck is in charge of greece. Having so much money and provinces makes the AS game a little bit too easy for my taste.
Esspecially with the considerate Alex.exe Ki you are never endangered.

I love AS, nice work Hax. One thing I might add for the Rp-ers out there. There is a single unit of Dahae riders in one of your Steppe provinces. (Sorry I forgot which one).. I personally, have that unit travel all the way to Antiochea to serve under Theodorus Syriakos (who also travels to Antiochea). Ive fought countless battles with them now and they still havent had a casualty.

Who knows, maybe ill disband them when Theodorus dies of old age.

One thing you really need to have a good grasp of is the stacks you need to tackle the Pahlava. This is a good basic, early game "anti-pahlava" army

1x FM
3x Persian Archers/Heavy PA/Horse archers
2x Eastern Slingers
2-3x Pantodapoi Phalangitai
1-2x Thureophoroi/Peltastai

You need the large amount of missile units. The slingers are easy to understand, as they're an excellent weapon against FMs and Dahae Nobles. The Persian Archers tackle their horse archers and the various lightly armoured infantry they'll doubtless deploy.

Thureophoroi are preferable to Peltastai, as they have spears, but both are good infantry with some armor to stop arrows, and can stand against FMs and Dahae Nobles, and perform the role of a flexible force that can rush in and save your other units if they're in trouble, as well as flank enemies well.

The Phalangitai are pretty basic stuff - try to get them in a fight with cavalry, and don't be afraid to use them as axemen against Nobles and Cataphracts; AP axes are amasing.

Also, don't be afraid to raid Nisa and/or Khiva even if you can't hold on to it - pillaging their Courts and Camps will not only give you money, it cuts off their recruitment.

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Originally Posted by satalexton

Seconded. Hai has good potential: Sturdy Medium infantry, excellent archers, wonderous cavalry.

p.s. In the east, persian hoplitai are the next best thing after smoked cheese.

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The problem is the medium inf are low in numbers, archers aren't as armoured as their Syrian and Bosphoran counterparts, and the fact that Persian Hoplites are pretty useless, for they've poor morale, stamina, and their swords suck. I've experienced they even lose to missile fire so easily.

I'm having fun with my M/M Arche Seleukia campaign. I'm fighting every battle manually, plus micromanaging my huge empire, so I'm still at only 264 BC, but it's all good fun!

I've spent nearly all my money on town building thus far. I try to have something building in every settlement all the time. So my army is still very weak, composed of mainly cheap units like native spearmen, archers, and slingers. However, despite that, I've managed to hold Antiocheia-Margiane (just) and have actually retaken Hekatompylos and Asaak(!) after Pahlava took them early on due to their nearly-invincible FM's. I made peace with the Ptolemies first thing and they haven't been a problem since, being too busy fighting Elutheroi on their borders.

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Originally Posted by Titus Marcellus Scato

I'm having fun with my M/M Arche Seleukia campaign. I'm fighting every battle manually, plus micromanaging my huge empire, so I'm still at only 264 BC, but it's all good fun!

I've spent nearly all my money on town building thus far. I try to have something building in every settlement all the time. So my army is still very weak, composed of mainly cheap units like native spearmen, archers, and slingers. However, despite that, I've managed to hold Antiocheia-Margiane (just) and have actually retaken Hekatompylos and Asaak(!) after Pahlava took them early on due to their nearly-invincible FM's. I made peace with the Ptolemies first thing and they haven't been a problem since, being too busy fighting Elutheroi on their borders.

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I always try that too!

I am around 248ish, I can finally afford that for about 3 years. I have 3 half stack- like armies who fight, and of course some garissons at the borders.

I also do every battle myself, stupid outresolve always screws up, which I cannot afford.

Im making preparations for the Cata reforms, where I have to lose...:embarassed:

~Fluvius

Yes, that is something I try to do as well. Especially when you have your first mines built in the eastern provinces, you will find that suddenly, you will have enough money to start developing your cities and soon, even Gabai will be more artistic and prominent than Athenai or Alexandreia ;D

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Originally Posted by vartan

The problem is the medium inf are low in numbers, archers aren't as armoured as their Syrian and Bosphoran counterparts, and the fact that Persian Hoplites are pretty useless, for they've poor morale, stamina, and their swords suck. I've experienced they even lose to missile fire so easily.

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I've found that the Georgian Medium Infantry may even be a better choice than the Armenian Medium Infantry. They have slightly lower stats, but they make up for it with higher numbers. The main problem with both units I think is that sword units like them simply aren't very effective in the east. They can't hold off cavalry, and they can't go head to head with phalanxes very well, meaning their main use is as flankers against phalanxes. But, since you're playing as the Hai, your cavalry perform this job much more effectively, so in the end, they just end up being underwhelming, which is really too bad. I guess if your enemies are fielding lots of Theurophoroi, Thorakitai, or Hoplitai they could be an effective counter to those units, but I've found that the AS tends to go very phalanx heavy in its infantry selection. The ironic thing is that the enemies that these units would actually be good against (the Romani and the Western "Barbarians") are enemies that you probably will not run into very much in the average Hai campaign (if you are only trying to achieve your victory conditions that is).

As for Persian Hoplites, they are so disappointing it's unreal. If you want an armored eastern spear unit, the Babylonian Heavy Spearmen are actually better than them (higher defense and an armor piercing mace as a secondary instead of a low-lethality sword) and can be trained without going through reforms. Of course Babylonian Spears have a very small AOR, but they are pretty widely available as mercs.

Sorry for the somewhat OT post, in regards to the actual thread, this is a really great guide, Hax. I've started an AS campaign because of it and I have to say there's something about it that I haven't really experienced playing EB before. I think it's the novelty of having this huge empire, but since it's at the beginning of the game, it isn't secure (as opposed to late game huge empires where you have so much money and troops that you really don't have to worry about much). Actually losing provinces and knowing that it's going to be years before you can retake them is a very refreshing feeling.

Georgian Inf. are a niche; I found them essential when you need to storm walls. I used 2 units in my army which took Susa, Gadia and Persepolis and they cleaned up the walls efficiently. I still have 97 of them waiting in Persepolis.
Then, they are good to flank Native Spearmen or other spear units my FM (Hay) shouldn't charge. They did a good job pinning phalanxes but I won't rate their pinning abilities because I used anything and everything to pin them down and let heavy cavalry do its job. (half strength green slingers unit? Go!)

Overall, I'd say they should be used where your FM can't. On the walls or in the streets, anywhere you can't get a good charge.

Persian Hoplites are a disappointment. Native phalanxes do a better job at holding the line and are available sooner and if you need something in the assault department, you can just click on the "mercenary" button.

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Originally Posted by Poulp'

Georgian Inf. are a niche; I found them essential when you need to storm walls. I used 2 units in my army which took Susa, Gadia and Persepolis and they cleaned up the walls efficiently. I still have 97 of them waiting in Persepolis.
Then, they are good to flank Native Spearmen or other spear units my FM (Hay) shouldn't charge. They did a good job pinning phalanxes but I won't rate their pinning abilities because I used anything and everything to pin them down and let heavy cavalry do its job. (half strength green slingers unit? Go!)

Overall, I'd say they should be used where your FM can't. On the walls or in the streets, anywhere you can't get a good charge.

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The thing is, to me that isn't enough of a reason to pay for them and import them to armies that are not in the Caucusus. You can accomplish the same thing with Eastern Axemen (the AP secondary helps a lot) if you have to and they are much more widely available. You'll certainly take higher casualties because they are poorly armored, but those casualties are very easy to replace pretty much anywhere from Eastern Anatolia over to Baktria instead of only in the Caucusus. On walls and in streets I can see the advantage of the Medium Infantry, because they have better staying power due to more armor/morale. However, when used as flankers I would choose the Eastern Axemen because staying power does not matter as much and AP axes are a much more effective flanking weapon against phalanxes then a short sword. Hyrkanian Hillmen are an even better alternative due to their very high morale. They do have a small AOR, but they are widely available as mercs, so, as you said, when you need an assault unit you are far better served to hire some of them than to recruit and ship out the Georgian/Armenian Mediums.

I wish the Armenian/Georgian Medium Infantry were better, because I do like the idea of using them, but considering their relatively scarce availability in comparison to alternatives that perform some roles better than them and other roles worse (but still sufficiently to be used), they just don't make much sense to me from a campaign perspective. Which is really unfortunate, because in terms of historical accuracy I should be using them and they also have pretty sweet skins.

Short swords as a whole are quite underpowered in EB - AtB intends to remedy this, and give them a decent edge against spear units.

WinsingtonIII, congrats on making Georgian and Armenian mediums sound like a complete waste of money and time. :juggle2: But really, good job. You succeeded. The thing is mate, it's not true. They don't actually suck as badly as you mentioned. Every unit has its use, and has a proper way of usage. I take Georgians and Armenians any day over eastern axemen. The swordsmen prove to be more useful in the long run.

Oh I don't think they suck (that's reserved for Persian Hoplites), I just have always found other units that have pulled off what I would have done with them. Maybe not as well, but sufficiently enough for me to be satisfied with the result. I would use them in multiplayer/custom battle, and I do use them in campaign when I'm close enough to the Caucusus, I'm just not big on carting them over to attack Hektampylos when I have Hyrkanian Hillmen right there.

It may just be a matter of perception. I've always found the various Celtic short sword units to be rather decent, when they are clearly worse than Georgian or Armenian Medium Infantry. I think it may be because the Celtic short swords look like they are going to be terrible, and then they don't do half bad, so I'm like "oh look at that, that wasn't terrible at all, good for you." But the Medium Infantry look so cool, so I'm like "this is gonna be awesome," and then they do a pretty good job and I'm like "well that wasn't as awesome as I hoped." So I'm disappointed when I probably shouldn't be. I think it's the same phenomenon that we see when people complain that Hypastistai are underwhelming. It's not that they're bad units, they're just not as good as I was hoping. Does that make any sense?

I always expect the worst in life. That way, I'm always happy with the results =)

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Originally Posted by WinsingtonIII

But the Medium Infantry look so cool, so I'm like "this is gonna be awesome," and then they do a pretty good job and I'm like "well that wasn't as awesome as I hoped." So I'm disappointed when I probably shouldn't be. I think it's the same phenomenon that we see when people complain that Hypastistai are underwhelming. It's not that they're bad units, they're just not as good as I was hoping. Does that make any sense?

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Just because a unit of soldiers wear awesome uniforms, doesn't mean they are awesome....

A unit of Imperial Roman legionaries in the famous lorica segmentata might look awesome, but a unit of Gestatae would beat them one on one, despite having no uniform at all.... ;)

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Originally Posted by vartan

I always expect the worst in life. That way, I'm always happy with the results =)

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Haha I'll keep that in mind in the future

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Originally Posted by Titus Marcellus Scato

Just because a unit of soldiers wear awesome uniforms, doesn't mean they are awesome....

A unit of Imperial Roman legionaries in the famous lorica segmentata might look awesome, but a unit of Gestatae would beat them one on one, despite having no uniform at all.... ;)

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Ah, but there you're assuming that Gaesatae don't look awesome....

Obviously appearance does not determine a unit's abilities, but I happened to have high expectations for the troops in question for a variety of reasons, and as such, when they underperformed those expectations, I was disappointed. It was as simple as that.

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Originally Posted by WinsingtonIII

Obviously appearance does not determine a unit's abilities, but I happened to have high expectations for the troops in question for a variety of reasons, and as such, when they underperformed those expectations, I was disappointed. It was as simple as that.

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I think it is not simple. I think it is a complicated set of psychological events that are triggered naturally that result in you expecting more of the better-looking troops. Think of it this way: If you are going to an interview for IBM, are you going to go wearing a T-shirt and jeans, or are you going to go dressed properly in business attire? I think we all know the answer to this. The same applies here in game. Expectations are something that I find must be consciously put down in importance if you want to reduce prejudice that has become almost inherent. First Impressions. Gotta love 'em =)

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Originally Posted by vartan

Think of it this way: If you are going to an interview for IBM, are you going to go wearing a T-shirt and jeans, or are you going to go dressed properly in business attire? I think we all know the answer to this.

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I dare you to go for an interview wearing Gestatae attire....

If nothing else, you'll get the panel's attention! :wiseguy:

Can you please continue this?

It is possible to save Asaak as the Seleucids - in fact, to not loose a single city. You have to hire a mercenary general there on the first turn. You won't start with enough money so scrap some building you don't need, like the temple to Marduk in Seleucia. Then reinforce your border cities with troops from the eastern half of the empire. But otherwise, you're free to focus on the wealthy cities of Asia Minor and Egypt without having to chase horse archers across the steppe.

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Originally Posted by WinsingtonIII

I think it's the same phenomenon that we see when people complain that Hypastistai are underwhelming. It's not that they're bad units, they're just not as good as I was hoping. Does that make any sense?

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what??? who thinks hypastistai are bad??? they are good flankers and can hold the flank against anything. i had half a stack attacking my hypastistai and they held for the entire battle losing only 30 men. They can actually hold the line against elite cavalry charge with less than 10 casualties. Pelt-Maks are the underwhelming ones imo and people never complain about those