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Posted in the Backroom due to the slightly adult nature of the topic!
So...Ron Jeremy (a male porn 'actor') has come out and said that violent video games have a much bigger negative influence on kids than porn. The choice of venue for this bold statement? Whilst visiting the Consumer Electronics Show in Vegas :laugh4:.
So...what do fellow Orgah's feel about this issue? Personally I think it should be regarded as which is better, not which is worse! :eyebrows:
Not that odd a claim unless it's rape-porn or something similar.
//expects Horetore to show up
Agreed, there's some twisted stuff out there, but, principally, we expect most people to have sex; we don't expect them to fight their way through the Zombie Apocalypse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Rape is actually a very common female fantasy. Roleplay rape of course, not actual rape. I guess it's the "ultimate submission" thingy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
I didn't really have anything to add... But this comment made me :smash:Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Violence is somewhat sexual in nature as well, but even after watching violent porn (if that is your thing, know of at least one very respectable orgah who does) that emotion ends up somewhere else, then it's gone it has been relieved. But I don't believe playing ultra-violent video-games aren't totally harmless for those already on the edge. Short burst vs prolonged exposure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
~:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
:no::thumbsdown:
I don't see porn and video games as being bad (at a user end as such). But if I had to choose, porn would obviously be worse as it involved real people and a lot of the porn industry is a very dirty, very corrupt and a very exploitive buisness.
So in otherwords, porn is worse than video games as no humans were hurt in the process of a video game.
Most violent games are 18+ so they are not for kids anyway....
it´s kind of a pointless comment.
I have to agree that the most important question is "which one is more awesome anyway?" :2thumbsup:
It is... we had a conversation somewhat like this a while back, the Lemur nailed :'Brad Pitt showing up at your door and not taking no for an answer'. Some are more dominant than others and some like that. People have rape fantasy's, doubt you don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mithrandir
Actually, I would argue it would be the feelings of desire/being wanted and being taken by some one you want to be taken by.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
So it is not actually rape at all. As in rape, you are being taken by someone which you don't, which is a complete contradictionary in terms.
Oh come on, get off your high horse. I'm 100% sure that you do sexual stuff other people would label disgusting too. We all do that "disgusting" stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mithrandir
Though this was on the BBC website recently, as in, I just went on and saw it now.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/m...er/8455161.stm
That sounds an awful lot like how we gave lower sentences for rapists if the victim was seen as promiscuous...Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
Can't say I like the look of it...
I don't think it's a question of which is 'worse.' At the end of the day, it's the parents' responsibility to make sure the kids don't see the stuff that parents don't approve of.
I hear parents rant about how dreadful video games are, and then when I go to the store I see parents buying GTA for their kid, who is not tall enough to see the top of the counter. Games have a rating system, people need to learn what the ratings mean. There are parent-oriented game review sites out there that go into detail about the content of the games.
I agree with Beskar that porn is a shady business. But, the idea of porn is not "bad" IMO, so long as the people making it aren't being hurt. Again, I think the responsibility for keeping kids away from porn lies with the parents.
I think that the US has it backwards when it comes to sex and violence. Movies can contain a ton of violence, torture, etc., and be PG-13, but if an otherwise harmless movie shows a boob for long enough, it gets an R.
Sorry for lack of coherence, I just got up. :coffeenews:
//hands Scienter coffee
Ain't that shady it's a professional business, these girls make a lot of money and can make demands, for porn enthousiasts these girls are superstars. And they aren't in short supply anyway just type 'amateur' on porntube you will get hundreds of results. It isn't like prostitution in any way.
[/Obligitory Australian whinge about ratings.]Quote:
Originally Posted by Scienter
I think the focus rests on the kids themselves. The child has to be smart enough to determine what is socially acceptable and what isnt. I played GTA 3 when I was 10, GTA 2 before that. Did I suddenly think that going around shooting people was ok? (Yes I did play the pre-censored version)
Actual Rape is about Power and control, about forcing your will on others. It isn't about sex and power. Now, being ravaged probably is a not uncommon female fantasy, but that's different.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
No, I'm talking about roleplaying a rape, not "getting rough".Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
You'd completely change your mind if someone close to you was raped and you knew what impact it had on their lives.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
To say I'm offended by your statement wouldn't be quite correct, but I don't like it whatsoever.
Not the fact that it's directed at me, but the fact that you think it's normal to have rape fantasies.
Maybe, but never something which goes against the will of the other, ruining complete lives.Quote:
Originally Posted by horetore
I'll won't respond to this topic anymore since no good will come of it. But please be sensitive to the subject and know what enormous impact such a dispicable act can have on peoples lives. Please don't make it seem like something "normal" to consider or fantasize about.
:bow:
Why does such a thing such as sado-machosism exist, or any other fetish really. The desire to take or to be taken is deeply rooted in the fantasy-world of both sexes and some will give in to excesses. Just look at the language, always helps, you will always find a violent or dominating undertone 'taken' 'mounted', just as you will always find sexual insinuation in excessive violence. Did I just beat you at COD4? No I raped you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
Goes against the will of another?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mithrandir
Please, do read my post again.
It is just a fantasy, and yeah I know a person like that. Got to know the person who did it as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mithrandir
This example (and I personally consider such remarks to be of rather poor taste) actually rather proves that "rape" is about power and control and not about sex.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
I guess it depends on what games you play or what kind of porn you watch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Boohugh
All these claims about most women having rape fantasies disturb me, to say the least. Do you guys have any sources to back that up, since it doesn't strike me as very credible.
And no, [insert hunk] "forcing" himself on a woman who adores [insert hunk] does not count as "rape fantasy", because if that would happen, said woman would be very cooperative and [insert hunk] wouldn't have to force anything.
Sorry I was trying to make a point. Yes of course but power/overpowered is where the fantasy lies, it is just a bedtime fantasy, role-play. It isn't my thing but there is nothing wrong with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ser Clegane
edit: example was to prove it's an unconcious way we look at things, if you look for innuendo in violence you will find a lot of it it, in every language. .
Rape is about power and control, not sex, who doesn't know that in this age? Roleplay rape on the other hand, has nothing to do with actual rape, but everything to do with sex.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ser Clegane
Personal experience mostly, sorry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andres
You was given a seeing to by Big Bubba and you worked out you enjoyed it, from the experience?Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Hah! Sadly, no, just conversations with various women......Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
EDIT: Oh, and Cupido, a "text-based" porn mag(hardly any pics, lots of erotic stories and articles on sex) had playrape as their theme either this month or the previous, I can't remember exactly...
EDIT2: And no I don't know that because I buy it(the internet was still free last time I checked), I know it because we sell them at work :smash:
EDIT3: No, I don't work at a smut shop, I work at a gas station.
actually
edit: oh damnit you ruined my joke
I can only speak for myself and the close friends I talk about sex with, but I don't know anyone who has rape fantasies. These are separate from 'getting rough' or BDSM. Rape is an act of violence against a woman, has nothing to do with sex. That said, I'm sure some women DO have them, but I really can't believe that it's common.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andres
Agreed. :yes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Andres
A sexual fantasy about rape is not possible, because rape per definition is sex lacking consent. It isn't rape if there is consent.
A rape fantasy isn't about a real rape, whatever gave you that idea...?Quote:
Originally Posted by Scienter
"Rape culture is the myriad ways in which rape is tacitly and overtly abetted and encouraged having saturated every corner of our culture so thoroughly that people can't easily wrap their heads around what the rape culture actually is." For me, seeing the word "rape" used to mean something other than non-consensual sex is disturbing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
I don't necessarily agree with everything in that link I posted, but the author has an excellent point in that quote I pasted in.
More like not taking no for an answer, adults like to have fun as well. What is the problem it is perfectly harmless. All work no play makes Jack a very dull boy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scienter
"Rape culture is the myriad ways in which rape is tacitly and overtly abetted and encouraged having saturated every corner of our culture so thoroughly that people can't easily wrap their heads around what the rape culture actually is." For me, seeing the word "rape" used to mean something other than non-consensual sex is disturbing.
Rape is known to be a weapon of war, how much harder can you hit someone. But we aren't talking about actual rape, is sado-masochism really torture or is it just a game, same here. Is sadism a word you can deal with without it's context.
There is no such thing as "pretend rape." I agree w/ Viking's post. By definition you can't have consensual rape.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
*Sigh*......Quote:
Originally Posted by Scienter
I'm not sure whether I should bother to explain this, but anyway....
I'll use one woman's playrape fantasy as an example:
The way she wanted it, was that she would decide a timeframe, let's say monday to wednesday. During that timeframe, someone would "break in" with ski mask and all that and "rape" her. Ie. making it as realistic as a rape as possible.
But of course it wouldn't be a real rape, as the person would've been a sexual partner and everything would've been decided beforehand.
Why this thread has confused actual rape with roleplaying is beyond my imagination, really.
Google "Playrape" and I'm sure you'll find some erotic stories that should explain the phenomenon for you.
And Viking is from Bergen, you can't listen to people from there....
I understand what you're talking about here, but you're putting yourself in the disturbing position of allowing the man to interpret when no means yes. That's what results in date rape. No means no, period, unless it's part of BDSM play and there's a safe-word involved.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Kadagar_AV?Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
~;p
Indeed.Quote:
Originally Posted by TinCow
Not taking no for an answer is pretty much the definition of a rapist.
If you're playing a naughty game, then the rules have to be agreed on first. Even when playing a game, no means no.
Ok, I understand what you are saying. The woman you're talking about is roleplaying; this is something she wants. Maybe the thread got confused. But, real rape is a very serious thing to people who know people who have been raped, or have been raped themselves. Call it playrape, BDSM, roleplaying, what have you, but, just calling it a rape fantasy without being more specific with your words is triggering and inflammatory to some people. Hopefully this will sort it all out. :yes:Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
I am not into that, I am not the one night stand kind of guy. But some people see some harm where there isn't any, some people have some weird habits, I am pretty boring when it comes to that. But there is nothing wrong with it, why care how they do their thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by TinCow
I called it a rape fantasy because that's the term people use for it....Quote:
Originally Posted by Scienter
I know very well what you are talking about; but I insist that the word "rape" isn't the word people should be looking for.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Actually, I'm not; and currently I live in Oslo. :book:Quote:
And Viking is from Bergen, you can't listen to people from there....
I wouldn't say "disturbing" because it doesn't give me an emotional response of disgust or being disurbed. For example as some one said in Call of Duty example, all it shows to me that the speaker is simply a 13 year old child trying to be 'cool' in otherwords, it just makes me have a low impression of the user.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scienter
Some of the other things are an expanded definition but yes, rape is "non-consensal sex" and is always that, it doesn't mean anything else.
Like some one pointed out (Andres, I think), having Bratt Pitt come to your door saying he wants to do the deed, for a female, it would be consensual right on the spot for many of them. This is far closer to the definition of "getting ravished"
Again, "playrape" is consensual sex while pretending it is not. It isn't actually rape. This would go more under roleplaying.
What the hell is wrong with you people, didn't we make clear, well at least a number of times, that it is just a fantasy? Yes because the word ' rape' means so much it's that much hotter when being dominated if that is your thing no? Makes no sense to you? Let them be, or feel dirty at your next performance of whatever shakespeare
....And Sylfest Lomheim wants people to call 2010 "totusenogti". Good luck to the both of you ~;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Viking
My humble apologies!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Viking
....But I bet you live in Frogner, so the point remains the same.... :smash:
Nothing wrong with them. The very word "rape" denotes an actual violent act, and some folks here, myself included, have been affected by actual rapes - and therefore naturally shy away from using the word in any kind of light-hearted manner. I realize you are only using the word for shorthand, to mean "ravished play-acting"; but you gotta respect the usage that your peers here use.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
But the thing is, Kukri, "playrape" and "rape fantasy" are the terms people use when describing this thing... It isn't something me or Frags just made up on the spot, its a a term that's been used for years to describe it....Quote:
Originally Posted by KukriKhan
But I am not using it lighthearted that is their actual fantasy. I am a bit amazed here, it has nothing to do with rape, or did you commit genocide when you were playing cowboys and indians.Quote:
Originally Posted by KukriKhan
Indeed. I believe you. That's why the thread is still open, so you and Fragony could explain yourselves, and not just get branded as 2 "pro-rape" guys. I think the other readers/posters get the gist of what you're talking about. In return, you fellas need to respect their inclinations; that the very word can and does conjure up hurtful memories - not that they're a bunch prude guys or word-police.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Is it possible for us to get back to pr0n vs vid-game?
Sure, but somebody who has been raped or has a close friend/relative or maybe even a partner who has been raped, will have a serious issue with people playing "rape games" for fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
To build on your metaphore, to them, you're not playing cowboys and indians, but you're playing genocide which is very distasteful and upsetting for someone who has experienced "the real thing".
:shrug:
You don't think I have?Quote:
Originally Posted by Andres
The thread has reached page 2 now. Backroom tradition states that we may now discuss any subject except the original one....Quote:
Originally Posted by KukriKhan
Excuse me?Quote:
Originally Posted by KukriKhan
Sure, but somebody who has been raped or has a close friend/relative or maybe even a partner who has been raped, will have a serious issue with people playing "rape games" for fun.
People get tortured to death, SM wrong? Many people have been sadistic.
Once again, I am not into it. But I am not going to judge it either, they have fun what's it to me.
I was thinking the same, but you saying that example gave me the mental image of a bunch of kids with one of those plastic kitchen sets, when one of them with a red scarf on their arm ends up saying "come on now, time to get in the oven".Quote:
Originally Posted by Andres
People use ****, ****, and **** to describe sex as well, yes? Words not made up on the spot, terms that have been used for years...Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
I did not know that "rape fantasy" was among those terms. I mean; "schoolgirl fantasy" doesn't imply an urge to have sex with a juvenile, does it? No, it only implies having sex with someone in a white shirt, tie and short skirt....Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro
It implies the desire of having sex with nubile young girl in her teens. (depending on area, pre-nubile) in her school uniform.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
This is usually expressed with females in their twenties and thirties with plat short skits which are too short for school requirements, seethrough white blouses, etc as you see around town on hen-nights and the poor excuse of "porn" that is everywhere.
However, the desire and what happens is different. You could argue that those taking part in "playrape" really want to rape others themselves.
Yeah it would and so what. Don't you ever have a laugh when wrestling in the sack.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
It most certainly does not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
Sorry, but I also disagree with you on that one. The 'schoolgirl fantasy' as you call it, most certainly implies a desire to have sex with a young girl who is still in school. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that desire; indeed I would say that the specific fantasy you are talking about is very normal because the age of consent does not match the biological age of sexual maturity. However, it's definitely based on the notion that a person is aroused by teenage schoolgirls. Denying that is, frankly, a bit preposterous.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Well I won't deny it, happy memory's. So what.
edit: and to make it perfectly clear, I meant games, not actually eying teenage girls. Sometimes you have to be sure.
Nonsense. Here's another take:Quote:
Originally Posted by TinCow
Don't we just love fond memories? We do, and the same goes for sex. Your first arousal was caused by girls in these women; the 'schoolgirl fantasy' does not imply anything other than reviving memories; to relive your youth, so to say, in a more mature way.
I don't have a 'schoolgirl fantasy', probably because we don't have school uniforms here. But I do have a hefty football uniform fetish....
Here's another one by the way; shaving pubes. Are the people who like them shaved really looking for under-age sex as well?
But back at the question at hand. I would say that violence (especially of the close up type a la GTA) is certainly more disturbing to me than porn. Simply because most porn obviously involves sex which is basically OK; whereas the idea & act of walking into a bar with a semi-automatic, turning on the spot and burying a small Armory worth of lead inside the head of one of the customers whilst shouting various expletives to give you the impression of an exceedingly violent parakeet taught human language by a 6 year old schoolboy is not (yet).
The word "fantasy" has a double meaning. In once case, it can mean that people imagine it happening, e.g. rape in consensual roleplay sex. The other meaning of the word comes close to desire, in that if I fantasise about Europa Barbarorum II, I want it really badly. HoreTore was clearly referring to the first instance when talking about rape fantasies.
BREAKING NEWS: Media hypes story about violence in video games. In other news, scientific study shows that honey makes bears aggressive when they are having a **** in the woods.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios
Well I do. Still have contact with some of them. Good memory's. Now we are friends.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
I fully agree with you on this, but this entire side-discussion happened because you compared the "schoolgirl fantasy" to the "rape fantasy." Yet your justification for why the "schoolgirl fantasy" is ok is because of "fond memories." Are saying "fond memories" applies to the "rape fantasy" as well? If not, you're comparing two very different things.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Uhm, no.....Quote:
Originally Posted by TinCow
I'm saying that there's a difference between a fantasy and the real thing, and that having a fantasy does not imply wanting to do the real thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TinCow
Oh no... that combined with HoreTore's comment about personal experience...
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Fantasy is pretending to do the real thing. (aka playrape), etc.
Don't worry, I can't even get the little guy up if the woman isn't actually up for it. My ex tried to "give in to" sex once, and it resulted in a limp soldier and a very insulted me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
Fantasy has a double meaning, so it means both.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
Anyway, why on earth would any woman want to be raped....?
Then why would anyone be interested in "playrape" then?Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
There is afterall, the out-of-date Freud psychology where the Id has these desires but the Ego prevents these ideas becoming reality. So when you go "I could kill for that tasty burger", your sugerego supresses the 'kill' action, so you don't actually act on your impulses.
"playrape" could be considered acting on your impulses of wanting to get raped/rape, but in a safe environment as instructed by the ego.
I disagree. Having a fantasy certainly implies at least a moderate level of interest in doing the thing. A fantasy is not the same as doing the real thing, but if you had no interest in doing the real thing you wouldn't be fantasizing about it. In your schoolgirl fantasy "memories" comparison, the person is fantasizing about their own actual sexual encounter... something that did happen in real life, and they are imagining themselves re-living that real sexual encounter.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
I'm seriously not trying to turn this into a thought-crime situation. I don't care what a person thinks about, as long as they control their actions, and will argue strongly in favor of anyone being allowed to fantasize about anything they want. However, it's important for people to be aware of their own impulses. If a person is in denial about what their urges are, they are at risk of acting on them in inappropriate situations. Self-control inherently requires knowledge of what needs to be controlled.
Never cracked a skull when you were half-awake? And the schoolgirl and rape victim both have the disadvantage of having very poor odds against a male full of determination. Again, not my thing, but why is it so hard to accept that it is for some, they bring their kids to school and pick them up, nobody gets hurt.Quote:
Originally Posted by TinCow
I have absolutely no idea what argument you're making here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
pics or it didn't happen
Fragony is a part-time dutch freudian psychoanalysist.
Porn is worse.
The violence in video games is clearly a fantasy, or from fantastic (ie not common, real situations, but war, zombie apocalypses, criminal gangs, etc.)
Whereas with porn, people like Ron Jeremy go on about how the videos are supposed to help real people with their sex lives - though porn is based on fantasy, not reality, and objectification of women.
CR
I thought I covered this on the third comment on this page.
Are you sure?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
That some like being vulnerable, or the other way around, what the hell is your problem, or do you finance their bedroom.Quote:
Originally Posted by TinCow
You need to stop seeing rape as just one thing, and instead separate it into separate parts. The real thing gives you all of them, while a roleplay thing only gives you the parts you want.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
Porn does help people - it shows you where to put what.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
My problem was with this specific statement:Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
The implication of that was that it was acceptable for someone to engage in a fantasy with another person who was not agreeing to participate in that fantasy. I think that's wrong. I don't care what your fantasies are, but I strongly believe that they have to be consensual.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Still half of Dutch young women admit watching porn, which means they all do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
implication of that was that it was acceptable for someone to engage in a fantasy with another person who was not agreeing to participate in that fantasy. I think that's wrong. I don't care what your fantasies are, but I strongly believe that they have to be consensual.
Makes you think I don't, of course it must be mutual.