The German government is currently considering the purchase of a data CD with information on 1500 potential tax-evaders.
The problem: the data has been illegaly obtained by the informant who is now offering it for sale
Germany politicans are grappling with the thorny question of whether to buy information on possible tax-evaders with Swiss Bank accounts. Switzerland warns that politicians would be doing business with criminals.
Politicians in Germany are trying to decide on the legality and morality of buying a stolen CD containing data of 1,500 possible tax-evaders with Swiss accounts.
The moral questions raised have prompted debate from all sides of the political spectrum with Switzerland warning that buying the CD would be illegal.
"Generally speaking we believe that it is difficult for states to use illegal data," said Swiss President Doris Leuthard. "This would mean doing business with criminals, which is against the law."
An informant is asking for 2.5 million euros ($3.5 million) for the confidential data, according to the German daily Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung. Tax investigators believe the information could bring in as much 100 million euros for the government.
Questions of legality
A senior ally of Chancellor Angela Merkel, Defence Minister Karl-Theodor zu Guttenberg, said the government would need to check the legal validity of the data.
"I have a problem with handing over money for something that has come into someone's possession in a legally questionable fashion," Guttenberg told Swiss daily Neue Zuercher Zeitung.
But Greens and Social Democrats have encouraged the government to buy the data on behalf of "honest taxpayers."
Some politicians from Chancellor Merkel's Christian Democrat party have also called for the purchase of the CD to be considered. Lower Saxony’s finance minister, Hartmut Moellring said in an interview with radio station Deutschlandfunk that he had no objection to buying it, provided that the information could be used in court.
"If the state gets information on tax evaders, it must pursue them," said Moellring. "It’s a question of justice."
Hot in the press
Both the Allgemeine Zeitung and Sueddeutsche Zeitung first reported on the offer. Officials in Berlin confirmed the reports on Saturday.
The informant reportedly handed over information on five individuals to prove the data's validity.
Both newspapers reported the data was offered to tax officials in the western state of North Rhine-Westphalia.
The Financial Times Deutschland reported on Monday that the data had come from a computer specialist at an HSBC private bank in Geneva.
rc/acb/AFP/dpa
Editor: Rob Turner
I have to admit I am very much on the fence regarding this issue. I have little sympathy for the tax evaders who would get caught if the government buys the data and it would certainly be a good "investment".
OTOH, buying data from some greedy criminal stinks. This is not a question of national security and the government might be better advised to catch tax-evaders the legal way (investing in the required manpower is AFAIK still provides a good ROI), so I am somewhat leaning towards not buying it.
What do other people think?
02-01-2010, 15:11
Aemilius Paulus
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
'Moral dilemma'? Sometimes people who pretend to be moral amuse me so much...
This can make it to the News of the Weird...
02-01-2010, 15:19
Fragony
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Who are the real thieves, that's what I think.
"The problem: the data has been illegaly obtained by the informant who is now offering it for sale"
If I would lose any money because of him I would cut of all his fingers and put them in the blender to be sure they can't be reattached.
02-01-2010, 15:20
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ser Clegane
The German government is currently considering the purchase of a data CD with information on 1500 potential tax-evaders.
The problem: the data has been illegaly obtained by the informant who is now offering it for sale
Germany politicans are grappling with the thorny question of whether to buy information on possible tax-evaders with Swiss Bank accounts. Switzerland warns that politicians would be doing business with criminals.
Politicians in Germany are trying to decide on the legality and morality of buying a stolen CD containing data of 1,500 possible tax-evaders with Swiss accounts.
The moral questions raised have prompted debate from all sides of the political spectrum with Switzerland warning that buying the CD would be illegal.
"Generally speaking we believe that it is difficult for states to use illegal data," said Swiss President Doris Leuthard. "This would mean doing business with criminals, which is against the law."
An informant is asking for 2.5 million euros ($3.5 million) for the confidential data, according to the German daily Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung. Tax investigators believe the information could bring in as much 100 million euros for the government.
Questions of legality
A senior ally of Chancellor Angela Merkel, Defence Minister Karl-Theodor zu Guttenberg, said the government would need to check the legal validity of the data.
"I have a problem with handing over money for something that has come into someone's possession in a legally questionable fashion," Guttenberg told Swiss daily Neue Zuercher Zeitung.
But Greens and Social Democrats have encouraged the government to buy the data on behalf of "honest taxpayers."
Some politicians from Chancellor Merkel's Christian Democrat party have also called for the purchase of the CD to be considered. Lower Saxony’s finance minister, Hartmut Moellring said in an interview with radio station Deutschlandfunk that he had no objection to buying it, provided that the information could be used in court.
"If the state gets information on tax evaders, it must pursue them," said Moellring. "It’s a question of justice."
Hot in the press
Both the Allgemeine Zeitung and Sueddeutsche Zeitung first reported on the offer. Officials in Berlin confirmed the reports on Saturday.
The informant reportedly handed over information on five individuals to prove the data's validity.
Both newspapers reported the data was offered to tax officials in the western state of North Rhine-Westphalia.
The Financial Times Deutschland reported on Monday that the data had come from a computer specialist at an HSBC private bank in Geneva.
rc/acb/AFP/dpa
Editor: Rob Turner
I have to admit I am very much on the fence regarding this issue. I have little sympathy for the tax evaders who would get caught if the government buys the data and it would certainly be a good "investment".
OTOH, buying data from some greedy criminal stinks. This is not a question of national security and the government might be better advised to catch tax-evaders the legal way (investing in the required manpower is AFAIK still provides a good ROI), so I am somewhat leaning towards not buying it.
What do other people think?
"Buy" it, then arrest the criminals and get the money back.
02-01-2010, 15:38
KukriKhan
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Pay 2.5 mil for a 100 mil return? Hmm, tempting. But:
Quote:
The Financial Times Deutschland reported on Monday that the data had come from a computer specialist at an HSBC private bank in Geneva.
*I pause here to note that a small-ish earthquake just shook my house for about 4 seconds*
so the CD is stolen property. Cannot use it, in my opinion - especially now that it's been made public by the newspapers. It would encourage more info piracy, which would back-fire, in the long run.
Next question is: Does Germany have a duty to arrest & prosecute the seller, and/or report the source to Geneva?
02-01-2010, 17:38
Jolt
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
That thief is the best thief one can find. If government could employ thieves like those, I wouldn't mind there being a business that dedicates itself to tracking down tax evaders and selling that information to governments. It would make people think twice before comitting tax evasion, that's for sure.
02-01-2010, 17:59
al Roumi
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolt
That thief is the best thief one can find. If government could employ thieves like those, I wouldn't mind there being a business that dedicates itself to tracking down tax evaders and selling that information to governments. It would make people think twice before comitting tax evasion, that's for sure.
What's funny about this is that were the disk freely given to the Govt, e.g by an investigative journalist, they would not hesitate to use it. Paying for the service of hacking an HSBC server is presumably what causes the sticking point. Fool of a person who thought they could sell the disc...
02-01-2010, 18:01
Beskar
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Not really a thief, it seems to be more of a mole within the bank who is willing to sell the info for some back-pocket.
02-01-2010, 18:12
al Roumi
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
Not really a thief, it seems to be more of a mole within the bank who is willing to sell the info for some back-pocket.
Well he's likely to be out of a job very soon, if not already.
02-01-2010, 18:22
Beskar
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Quote:
Originally Posted by alh_p
Well he's likely to be out of a job very soon, if not already.
That is true. The price of being a mole.
02-01-2010, 18:41
Kralizec
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
"Buy" it, then arrest the criminals and get the money back.
I approve.
02-01-2010, 18:48
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kralizec
I approve.
Well, then it's just evidence of a crime gained arresting someone for another crime.
02-01-2010, 19:16
Kralizec
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Not of a crime...if the German government intended to prosecute the tax-evaders as suspects of a crime, the evidence would be inadmissible. It can, however, be used to prove that they still owe the government taxes.
02-01-2010, 20:13
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kralizec
Not of a crime...if the German government intended to prosecute the tax-evaders as suspects of a crime, the evidence would be inadmissible. It can, however, be used to prove that they still owe the government taxes.
If they arrested someone for breaking into a bank computer and discovered evidence of other felons' tax-evasion on the hacker the evidence for tax-evasion would be inadmissable?
If that was true Al Capone would never have been convicted!
02-01-2010, 20:43
rory_20_uk
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
I'd be for getting it, but payment would be very much dependant on results. If those that evade taxes fear that they might be found, less will do so. Assuming that there are hefty fines for getting caught, this will have payoffs down the line too.
~:smoking:
02-01-2010, 20:55
Crazed Rabbit
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
It's wrong, and I'm against it. The government has rules they must follow to obtain evidence. To bypass those rules is to take people's rights away. Paying a thief to get info the government couldn't is using a contractor to bypass the laws put in place to protect the rights of citizens, and therefore destroys those rights.
CR
02-01-2010, 22:49
Kralizec
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
If they arrested someone for breaking into a bank computer and discovered evidence of other felons' tax-evasion on the hacker the evidence for tax-evasion would be inadmissable?
If that was true Al Capone would never have been convicted!
That would be a different situation. There's no intent on the government's part to evade restrictions on evidence gathering in your scenario, they just luckily stumble on it.
In the current, real life scenario, the German government would basically evade all rules on how to acquire evidence by simply buying it from a third party who isn't bound by said rules. Crazed Rabbit is right, it might not be against the letter of the law but it's certainly agains the spirit. OTOH a tax debt is not a "punishment", criminal law doesn't come into play until they decide to prosecute you for deliberately evading taxes.
02-02-2010, 11:26
Ironside
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
It's wrong, and I'm against it. The government has rules they must follow to obtain evidence. To bypass those rules is to take people's rights away. Paying a thief to get info the government couldn't is using a contractor to bypass the laws put in place to protect the rights of citizens, and therefore destroys those rights.
CR
Wouldn't that also apply if the thief gave the information for free as well? As he have broken company policy and probably a contract or two as well? I wouldn't approve of it benig used as the only evidence, but it could be used to find legally obtained evidence to use.
Tough one. I would go with accepting it on the basis that exposing crimes should be rewarded, but it should be heavily depended on the quality of the information mainly since it still gives me a sour taste and to try to prevent attemts to abuse it.
02-02-2010, 13:10
CountArach
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
It's wrong, and I'm against it. The government has rules they must follow to obtain evidence. To bypass those rules is to take people's rights away. Paying a thief to get info the government couldn't is using a contractor to bypass the laws put in place to protect the rights of citizens, and therefore destroys those rights.
CR
I have to agree with CR here. Let the apocolypse come.
02-02-2010, 14:06
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kralizec
That would be a different situation. There's no intent on the government's part to evade restrictions on evidence gathering in your scenario, they just luckily stumble on it.
In the current, real life scenario, the German government would basically evade all rules on how to acquire evidence by simply buying it from a third party who isn't bound by said rules. Crazed Rabbit is right, it might not be against the letter of the law but it's certainly agains the spirit. OTOH a tax debt is not a "punishment", criminal law doesn't come into play until they decide to prosecute you for deliberately evading taxes.
Well, my point was that the relevant government agency should have arrested the thief for trying to sell illegally obtained information, and then used the information. They shouldn't have considered "buying it", however they could offer to buy it (lie to the thief in order to get him to incriminate himself for himself).
Yes, I have no problem with entrapment.
02-02-2010, 15:22
KukriKhan
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Other media (Reuters) have picked up the story. Reportedly, the Swiss gov't likens Germany's purchase of the data as "bank robbery".
02-02-2010, 21:40
Crazed Rabbit
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Quote:
Originally Posted by CountArach
I have to agree with CR here. Let the apocolypse come.
Wouldn't that also apply if the thief gave the information for free as well? As he have broken company policy and probably a contract or two as well? I wouldn't approve of it benig used as the only evidence, but it could be used to find legally obtained evidence to use.
Yes, it would apply. I'm still against it even if given for free and only used to find legal evidence. The starting evidence was illegally obtained and all that flowed from it should be illegal.
CR
02-02-2010, 22:53
Centurion1
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
easy solution, duh. buy the data. arrest evaders. try them in court. then arrest the guy with the cd for witholding valuable information regarding a crime from the governemnt. he got payed didnt he and then when you arrest him seize his estate. in the end you become far more wealthy.
02-03-2010, 01:31
Sasaki Kojiro
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
I agree with CR, they shouldn't purchase or accept the CD. Not for collecting taxes. If it was something else, maybe.
02-04-2010, 04:20
CrossLOPER
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Accept CD: +5 Renegade
Decline CD: +5 Paragon
02-06-2010, 11:58
rory_20_uk
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Quote:
Originally Posted by KukriKhan
Other media (Reuters) have picked up the story. Reportedly, the Swiss gov't likens Germany's purchase of the data as "bank robbery".
For the Swiss to take the high ground they're either bing ironic or have llost grip on reality. They are the bank of choice for dictators the world over.
~:smoking:
02-06-2010, 15:53
CrossLOPER
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Quote:
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
For the Swiss to take the high ground they're either bing ironic or have llost grip on reality. They are the bank of choice for dictators the world over.
Ha!
02-07-2010, 04:06
HoreTore
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Illegally obtained? Bah!
Any employee should be obligated to report any criminal activity his company is involved in. Buy it, then give the guy a medal.
Loyalty ends when there's a crime involved. And yes, tax evasion is a crime.
02-07-2010, 04:17
Sasaki Kojiro
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Illegally obtained? Bah!
Any employee should be obligated to report any criminal activity his company is involved in. Buy it, then give the guy a medal.
Loyalty ends when there's a crime involved. And yes, tax evasion is a crime.
"sell for 2.5 million" is not the same as "report".
02-07-2010, 06:32
HoreTore
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro
"sell for 2.5 million" is not the same as "report".
Tomayto tomato.
He's taking on a huge risk, it's only fair to give him something for his troubles.
02-07-2010, 13:03
Fragony
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
It can't be used legally it concerns private information of citizens, their address, where they work, it was illegally obtained, now it isn't about law but about the money of course, so privacy laws step aside.
02-07-2010, 14:00
HoreTore
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
It can't be used legally it concerns private information of citizens, their address, where they work, it was illegally obtained, now it isn't about law but about the money of course, so privacy laws step aside.
Do you support anti-terrorism laws by any chance, Frags?
02-07-2010, 15:35
rory_20_uk
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
This is where the problem of trying to legislate everything comes into difficulty, but sadly few in power appear to have either the will or the inclination to use common sense.
Information that details off shore accounts is not going to impact on the law abiding, as the offshore accounts are mostly if not all breaking the law; for laws to defend law breakers is perverse. If such issues could be reviewed by Judges(?) which would allow for sorting out potentially complex situations; if this was the case then there would not be the need to have laws to cover every potential eventuality in the first place.
~:smoking:
02-07-2010, 15:57
HoreTore
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Quote:
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
This is where the problem of trying to legislate everything comes into difficulty, but sadly few in power appear to have either the will or the inclination to use common sense.
Information that details off shore accounts is not going to impact on the law abiding, as the offshore accounts are mostly if not all breaking the law; for laws to defend law breakers is perverse. If such issues could be reviewed by Judges(?) which would allow for sorting out potentially complex situations; if this was the case then there would not be the need to have laws to cover every potential eventuality in the first place.
~:smoking:
Offshore assets are required to be reported to the tax agency anyway, at least it is here. So, if you're law abiding the government already knows about the account. The only scenario in which the government would not know about your account already, is if you're a criminal.
02-07-2010, 16:35
Fragony
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Do you support anti-terrorism laws by any chance, Frags?
They all look pretty much the same but we can't work with that
long beard + jaballah = bad news
02-09-2010, 19:32
Crazed Rabbit
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Quote:
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
This is where the problem of trying to legislate everything comes into difficulty, but sadly few in power appear to have either the will or the inclination to use common sense.
Information that details off shore accounts is not going to impact on the law abiding, as the offshore accounts are mostly if not all breaking the law; for laws to defend law breakers is perverse. If such issues could be reviewed by Judges(?) which would allow for sorting out potentially complex situations; if this was the case then there would not be the need to have laws to cover every potential eventuality in the first place.
~:smoking:
It is in no way perverse; it's human rights. It's why we have laws saying the government can't torture you to get information, and that you can't incriminate yourself.
These are laws designed to protect all people, and that means criminals as well. Especially since no one is guilty of any law breaking until found so in a court of law.
Quote:
Any employee should be obligated to report any criminal activity his company is involved in. Buy it, then give the guy a medal.
Loyalty ends when there's a crime involved. And yes, tax evasion is a crime.
Is any of what was alleged to have happened illegal in Switzerland? This is in no way a high minded action by the thief; it's greed. But I guess criminal greed in service of the government is good.
CR
02-09-2010, 21:48
HoreTore
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
Is any of what was alleged to have happened illegal in Switzerland? This is in no way a high minded action by the thief; it's greed. But I guess criminal greed in service of the government is good.
CR
If there is no crime involved then the info is useless, since the government would have it already.
Since they don't, then it must be a crime. He might've broken Switzerlands laws, but what do I care, I don't live there. And they supported Hitler.
02-15-2010, 22:44
Crazed Rabbit
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
If there is no crime involved then the info is useless, since the government would have it already.
Since they don't, then it must be a crime. He might've broken Switzerlands laws, but what do I care, I don't live there. And they supported Hitler.
Why do you care about Germany enforcing their laws then? Why do you say employees have a duty to report crimes if you don't care about the laws in other countries?
And you missed the point about crime; I was wondering if the actions of the investors is illegal in Switzerland, since it seems like it is illegal in Germany. If what the investors from Germany were doing in Switzerland is not illegal in Switzerland than the actions of the thief selling the data has absolutely nothing to do with reporting the criminal actions of a company as you claimed. It's theft and greed, nothing to do with criminal companies. Companies do not have to comply with the laws of countries they aren't operating in.
Finally, you've lost on a Godwin infraction.
CR
02-16-2010, 01:11
Husar
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
Why do you care about Germany enforcing their laws then? Why do you say employees have a duty to report crimes if you don't care about the laws in other countries?
And you missed the point about crime; I was wondering if the actions of the investors is illegal in Switzerland, since it seems like it is illegal in Germany. If what the investors from Germany were doing in Switzerland is not illegal in Switzerland than the actions of the thief selling the data has absolutely nothing to do with reporting the criminal actions of a company as you claimed. It's theft and greed, nothing to do with criminal companies. Companies do not have to comply with the laws of countries they aren't operating in.
Finally, you've lost on a Godwin infraction.
CR
Huh? But if the actions they took in Germany were illegal in Germany then the actions of the companies were illegal in Germany and the guy helped enforce german law, maybe helping to enforce german law is illegal in switzerland but that is not our problem, we're interested in discovering the illegal activities companies conducted here. In this case tax evasion it seems.
02-16-2010, 01:23
Crazed Rabbit
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
Huh? But if the actions they took in Germany were illegal in Germany then the actions of the companies were illegal in Germany and the guy helped enforce german law, maybe helping to enforce german law is illegal in switzerland but that is not our problem, we're interested in discovering the illegal activities companies conducted here. In this case tax evasion it seems.
Yes, the people were allegedly violating German law. But that should not matter to the employees of the Swiss banks.
As for helping to enforce German law in Switzerland; it seems that would bring up a range of sovereignty issues, namely that Germany is violating Swiss sovereignty.
After all, wouldn't Germany be peeved if we sent FBI agents to arrest a German citizen for some crime he had committed on American soil, without bothering even to notify the German authorities?
It's why we have extradition treaties, since the legal authority of a government agent can not extend beyond that government's borders, without the consent of other governments.
CR
02-16-2010, 09:40
HoreTore
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
Why do you care about Germany enforcing their laws then? Why do you say employees have a duty to report crimes if you don't care about the laws in other countries?
And you missed the point about crime; I was wondering if the actions of the investors is illegal in Switzerland, since it seems like it is illegal in Germany. If what the investors from Germany were doing in Switzerland is not illegal in Switzerland than the actions of the thief selling the data has absolutely nothing to do with reporting the criminal actions of a company as you claimed. It's theft and greed, nothing to do with criminal companies. Companies do not have to comply with the laws of countries they aren't operating in.
Finally, you've lost on a Godwin infraction.
CR
First of all, we have the same laws here as Germany does, and my own government is doing exactly what germany does.
Secondly, what are these "investors" you're talking about...? When people hide their money away in swiss bank accounts, then it is because of criminal activity. There simply is no other reason. Putting them there isn't a standard procedure, it's to hide money earned from drug sales, bribes, tax evasion, etc etc.
Like I've said a billion times now, if no crime hasa been committed then the data is useless, as the government would know about it already.
One of the pillars of a free market is for everyone to compete under the same rules. Tax evasion screws that up since only a minority do it, and thus gain an extremely unfair advantage. it's actually like a government hand-out, and I honestly can't see why you've suddenly started supporting government handouts, CR...
02-16-2010, 10:00
Fragony
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
One of the pillars of government is legitimacy, buying stolen goods is a crime.
02-16-2010, 10:11
HoreTore
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
One of the pillars of government is legitimacy, buying stolen goods is a crime.
Assisting money laundering is also a crime, so Switzerland has no moral high ground whatsoever.
Heck, you know why Haiti is in such a bad state right now? Because their last dictator was able to stash his peoples money away in a Swiss bank instead of using them to build infrastructure and improve their lives.
02-16-2010, 10:24
Fragony
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Assisting money laundering is also a crime, so Switzerland has no moral high ground whatsoever.
Isn't a crime in Switzerland to put your money on a bank, stealing personal information is though.
02-16-2010, 12:38
Husar
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Isn't a crime in Switzerland to put your money on a bank, stealing personal information is though.
Tax evasion is a crime in Switzerland as well, apparently only applies to taxes owed to the swiss state though. Switzerland makes great profits using money that should not be in Switzerland in the first place, in other words, they make money by dealing with criminals, dictators and other people who break the laws of other countries all over the world, that effectively also means that Switzerland helps criminals all over the world with conducting their criminal activities, and now they whine that we do the same to them to get our money back...
And I'm supposed to feel bad over this? Don't make me laugh...
02-16-2010, 12:45
Fragony
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
Tax evasion is a crime in Switzerland as well, apparently only applies to taxes owed to the swiss state though. Switzerland makes great profits using money that should not be in Switzerland in the first place, in other words, they make money by dealing with criminals, dictators and other people who break the laws of other countries all over the world, that effectively also means that Switzerland helps criminals all over the world with conducting their criminal activities, and now they whine that we do the same to them to get our money back...
And I'm supposed to feel bad over this? Don't make me laugh...
Governments feed dictators all over the world. Stop NGO's like Unicef and Oxam-Noviv as it ends up in Switzerland. The swiss don't pretend to have a higher moral ground, they just keep the money in a safe place, what is wrong with that.
02-16-2010, 12:57
Husar
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Governments feed dictators all over the world. Stop NGO's like Unicef and Oxam-Noviv as it ends up in Switzerland. The swiss don't pretend to have a higher moral ground, they just keep the money in a safe place, what is wrong with that.
Nothing wrong with it as long as you didn't break the laws of your own country when you acquired the money or when you deposited it there.
It becomes wrong when you deposit money there that you acquired from illegal activities or money that should be taxed in your country but is instead illegally transferred to a secret account in Switzerland. By making their country a hiding place for all sorts of drug money, blood money etc. they actively aid and abet criminals in our country, something rather close to the sending CIA agents example CR gave. Privacy is fine and dandy but when it's used to molest children, kill people, sell heroin etc. it becomes somewhat awkward, doesn't it?
AFAIK it's fine to deposit money in a swiss bank, you just have to tell the government about it and pay your due taxes from it.
02-16-2010, 13:00
Fragony
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Pfffffffffffft as long as 80% of all foreign aid ends up there I am going to keep buying their chocolate. Now who is the criminal, the boring administrist-worker or the pumpers.
02-16-2010, 19:18
Crazed Rabbit
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
First of all, we have the same laws here as Germany does, and my own government is doing exactly what germany does.
Secondly, what are these "investors" you're talking about...? When people hide their money away in swiss bank accounts, then it is because of criminal activity. There simply is no other reason. Putting them there isn't a standard procedure, it's to hide money earned from drug sales, bribes, tax evasion, etc etc.
I support people being innocent until proven guilty.
Quote:
Like I've said a billion times now, if no crime hasa been committed then the data is useless, as the government would know about it already.
One of the pillars of a free market is for everyone to compete under the same rules. Tax evasion screws that up since only a minority do it, and thus gain an extremely unfair advantage. it's actually like a government hand-out, and I honestly can't see why you've suddenly started supporting government handouts, CR...
You're completely missing the point. Yes, if Germans are hiding money in Swiss banks to avoid taxes they're criminals and they should be caught and punished.
But the government must operate within the law.
Supporting a lawful government and demanding that all the actions of a government are legal is in no way supporting criminals.
It's called supporting human rights. And that means demanding the government act appropriately at all times, even when they are pursuing criminals we don't like. Or do you think criminals don't have rights, that they can be coerced into confessions? It does seem that for certain criminals you're willing to let the police use illegal methods to catch them.
CR
02-16-2010, 19:46
HoreTore
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
I support people being innocent until proven guilty.
You're completely missing the point. Yes, if Germans are hiding money in Swiss banks to avoid taxes they're criminals and they should be caught and punished.
But the government must operate within the law.
Supporting a lawful government and demanding that all the actions of a government are legal is in no way supporting criminals.
It's called supporting human rights. And that means demanding the government act appropriately at all times, even when they are pursuing criminals we don't like. Or do you think criminals don't have rights, that they can be coerced into confessions? It does seem that for certain criminals you're willing to let the police use illegal methods to catch them.
CR
Rubbish. First of all CR, I haven't heard much whining from you over Gitmo, so get off your high horse.
Yes, a government must operate within the law. Could you please tell me whjy that doesn't apply to the Swiss government? Just why don't you have any objection to their criminal money-laundering?
Also, would you be happy if the German government made a new law, saying that it's legal to purchase cd's from swiss bankers?
02-16-2010, 19:53
Crazed Rabbit
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
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Originally Posted by HoreTore
Rubbish. First of all CR, I haven't heard much whining from you over Gitmo, so get off your high horse.
Completely irrelevant to this discussion.
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Yes, a government must operate within the law. Could you please tell me whjy that doesn't apply to the Swiss government?Just why don't you have any objection to their criminal money-laundering?
The Swiss government isn't breaking any of its' laws, and the people putting money in their banks aren't breaking Swiss law. It certainly isn't on them to enforce the laws of other nations. :coffeenews:
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Also, would you be happy if the German government made a new law, saying that it's legal to purchase cd's from swiss bankers?
No, it would simply be legalizing the harming of human rights. Would you be happy if the US passed a law saying Gitmo was legal? Would you be happy if a law was passed saying the police could beat suspects to get a confession?
CR
02-16-2010, 20:26
HoreTore
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
Completely irrelevant to this discussion.
When you spout nonsense like "I support people being innocent until proven guilty" it suddenly becomes very relevant to this discussion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
The Swiss government isn't breaking any of its' laws, and the people putting money in their banks aren't breaking Swiss law. It certainly isn't on them to enforce the laws of other nations. :coffeenews:
No, it would simply be legalizing the harming of human rights. Would you be happy if the US passed a law saying Gitmo was legal? Would you be happy if a law was passed saying the police could beat suspects to get a confession?
CR
In effect, that's what the Swiss government has done, they have passed a law making a crime, moneylaundering, legal. And you think that's all fine and dandy....
Also, beating a confession out of people? Excuse me, are you on some kind of medication? Strawman anyone? Let's get this back into perspective here:
If Germany decides to buy the cd, there is zero chance of any legit person with a swiss bank account having his privacy invaded.
Let's say the cops hear of a house with a ton of cocaine inside. One of the residents in the house nicks the key from the owner, gives the key to the police and tells them that there's a ton of cocaine inside. You believe that in such a situation, the police should not be allowed to enter the house. I believe that's pure rubbish, and that the police should of course go into the house and confiscate that ton of cocaine.
02-16-2010, 20:38
Husar
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
But the government must operate within the law.
It is, they tested it and their lawyers said it's within the law, maybe not swiss law but then who cares about that?
02-16-2010, 20:39
HoreTore
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
It is, they tested it and their lawyers said it's within the law, maybe not swiss law but then who cares about that?
Oh!
Nice burn, Husar ~;)
02-16-2010, 20:46
Crazed Rabbit
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
When you spout nonsense like "I support people being innocent until proven guilty" it suddenly becomes very relevant to this discussion.
It's a red herring logical fallacy.
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In effect, that's what the Swiss government has done, they have passed a law making a crime, moneylaundering, legal. And you think that's all fine and dandy....
No, that is not correct at all. They don't act as agents of the German or other country's police forces. You seem to be insisting on a "you're either with us or against us" view where the Swiss either enforce the laws of other countries or are supporting criminals from those countries. It's a false choice.
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Also, beating a confession out of people? Excuse me, are you on some kind of medication? Strawman anyone? Let's get this back into perspective here:
If Germany decides to buy the cd, there is zero chance of any legit person with a swiss bank account having his privacy invaded.
It doesn't matter one bit if only criminals would be caught. The Government would have used illegal methods to catch them. The rule of law is more important than putting criminals behind bars.
Why not set up and watch some known drug dealing area, then track everyone who goes there and search their cars, their homes, etc., at will? Oh, right, because that would be violating their human rights.
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Let's say the cops hear of a house with a ton of cocaine inside. One of the residents in the house nicks the key from the owner, gives the key to the police and tells them that there's a ton of cocaine inside. You believe that in such a situation, the police should not be allowed to enter the house. I believe that's pure rubbish, and that the police should of course go into the house and confiscate that ton of cocaine.
A ridiculous analogy. First of all, if a resident of that house told the police there's a ton of cocaine hidden inside, they wouldn't need a key; they would have probably cause for a warrant. That's how (in theory) police in the US work; they don't have to get hold of stolen keys and sneak into crime scenes.
CR
02-16-2010, 20:54
HoreTore
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
It doesn't matter one bit if only criminals would be caught. The Government would have used illegal methods to catch them. The rule of law is more important than putting criminals behind bars.
As Husar has stated, it wouldn't break German laws.
Is it Germany's responsibility to uphold Switzerlands laws?
EDIT: and I eagerly await the post where you demand the immediate closure of Gitmo...
02-16-2010, 21:25
Crazed Rabbit
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
It is, they tested it and their lawyers said it's within the law, maybe not swiss law but then who cares about that?
So, they couldn't legally pay someone to break into a Swiss Bank and steal data so the government could get money, but they can pay someone who has broken into a bank and stolen data so the government can get data? How very convenient for them.
Any English link to the news?
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Is it Germany's responsibility to uphold Switzerlands laws?
No, the point is that Germany is buying data from a criminal that it could not otherwise legally obtain.
In short, contracting out certain aspects of law enforcement to criminals with bounties.
CR
02-16-2010, 22:12
HoreTore
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
So, they couldn't legally pay someone to break into a Swiss Bank and steal data so the government could get money, but they can pay someone who has broken into a bank and stolen data so the government can get data? How very convenient for them.
Any English link to the news?
No, the point is that Germany is buying data from a criminal that it could not otherwise legally obtain.
In short, contracting out certain aspects of law enforcement to criminals with bounties.
CR
Bah. I fully support any law that will make it legal to break into the records of tax havens and money laundering sites, so bah.
02-16-2010, 22:19
Crazed Rabbit
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Bah. I fully support any law that will make it legal to break into the records of tax havens and money laundering sites, so bah.
So I'd trust you'd have no problem with the US making it legal for CIA agents to sneak into Norway and capture alleged terrorists? Think of it as making it legal to break into terrorist havens and bring terrorists to justice.
:evil:
Or a Swiss law making it legal for them to go into Germany and kidnap the thief in order to take him back to Switzerland and throw him in jail.
Oh, and of course your views would make for a decidedly unfriendly attitude between some nations, and likely violate international law and all concepts of sovereignty. I guess diplomacy is overrated.
I also suppose you won't complain about Gitmo anymore.
CR
02-16-2010, 22:41
HoreTore
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
So I'd trust you'd have no problem with the US making it legal for CIA agents to sneak into Norway and capture alleged terrorists? Think of it as making it legal to break into terrorist havens and bring terrorists to justice.
:evil:
Or a Swiss law making it legal for them to go into Germany and kidnap the thief in order to take him back to Switzerland and throw him in jail.
Oh, and of course your views would make for a decidedly unfriendly attitude between some nations, and likely violate international law and all concepts of sovereignty. I guess diplomacy is overrated.
I also suppose you won't complain about Gitmo anymore.
CR
Yes, because torture and fines are the same thing.
Oh wait.
But do I support Israel and Mossad's right to arrest and extradite former nazi's or suspected terrorists hiding in countries unwilling to arrest them? Yes. No question. Do I support them when they screw up and kill innocent people like Lillehammer or Gitmo? No. That's why I like that separation of powers thingy, I would not mind the US arresting suspected terrorists abroad IF they were given a fair trial instead of being sent to a torture camp like Gitmo(or worse) without being found guilty.
02-17-2010, 03:49
Husar
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
So, they couldn't legally pay someone to break into a Swiss Bank and steal data so the government could get money, but they can pay someone who has broken into a bank and stolen data so the government can get data? How very convenient for them.
Any English link to the news?
It's very convenient indeed and the guy hasn't broken into anything, he has access to the data as he works there, he's just selling a company secret. The kind of thing US agents steal in Germany, too, btw.
Can't find a link, I read in a newspaper at work that they had some experts check whether it's lawful.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
No, the point is that Germany is buying data from a criminal that it could not otherwise legally obtain.
In short, contracting out certain aspects of law enforcement to criminals with bounties.
CR
It's not contracting out anything, the guy had already acquired the data by the time he contacted the german investigators.
The USA has a whole agency that employs criminals in other countries to get things it could not otherwise legally obtain, it's called the CIA...
