Fairly New to EB - Some questions

Hi everyone. Been a lurker for a few weeks but this is my first post. I'm fairly new to EB but a long time Total War fanatic. I have a couple questions i'm hoping someone can help me out with.

1. I hear a lot of talk about "elite" units. How do you tell when looking at the unit card whether it's elite or not?
2. Also, when looking at a unit, you can easily see their experience, armor, weapon upgrades but how do you tell what kind of morale they have? I know that the unit cards say good moral, very good morale, excellent morale etc......but does that change when you build a unit in a town that has +3 morale buildings for instance?
3. I read in some posts how some units are armour piercing but I don't usually see the "Affective against armour" trait on their unit card. Must it say that on the unit card to truly be affective against armour?
4. Lastly, what faction do you think has the best Cavalry bodyguards? I absolutely love using killer family members on horse.

Thanks everyone!

Welcome Spartan498,

1: often it is mentioned in the unit name or at least in the discription. but beeing Elite is not everything : Elite armenian/pontian swordsmen.

2: Afaik the moral bonus is bugged and does not really work.

3: basically everything with an axe a club/mace or a fancy shaped sword(the Kopis/falcatas or the falx or the weapon the indian guild warriors) is armor piercing. Sling projectiles are Armor piercing aswell.

4. I think the strongest would be the late bactrian ones but in terms of efficiency I'm not sure at all.

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Originally Posted by Spartan498

Hi everyone. Been a lurker for a few weeks but this is my first post. I'm fairly new to EB but a long time Total War fanatic. I have a couple questions i'm hoping someone can help me out with.

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Welcome to the world of posting!

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Originally Posted by Spartan498

1. I hear a lot of talk about "elite" units. How do you tell when looking at the unit card whether it's elite or not?

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Reading their description is generally the best way to find that out. Some even have "elite" in their names.

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Originally Posted by Spartan498

2. Also, when looking at a unit, you can easily see their experience, armor, weapon upgrades but how do you tell what kind of morale they have? I know that the unit cards say good moral, very good morale, excellent morale etc......but does that change when you build a unit in a town that has +3 morale buildings for instance?

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Sadly, you can't view the units' morale in-game. To see that you need to open the export_descr_unit file located in RTW-folder\EB\Data. AFAIK the morale bonuses from buildings are bugged (uncurable for the EB team, I might add) and either don't give morale bonuses at all, or only to the units fighting in that city (as in defending a siege assault). This doesn't make that type of temples useless, since they tend to enable traits for your generals/governors there that raise morale instead.

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Originally Posted by Spartan498

3. I read in some posts how some units are armour piercing but I don't usually see the "Affective against armour" trait on their unit card. Must it say that on the unit card to truly be affective against armour?

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No. I don't know the exact reasons for this; it could be that only the primary weapon's stats are shown, and their secondary weapon is the AP one. It could be (which is my belief) that the unit card can only show x specs, and the unit has x+y (where y > 0) specs, and the AP trait is left out. Or it can be both, both + some other reason, or some completely different reason that I simply don't know of. Bottom line is, though, that a unit with AP doesn't always have it shown in the unit card. Once again it's safest to turn to the unit description and remembering that axes and maces are generally AP, as are slingshots.

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Originally Posted by Spartan498

4. Lastly, what faction do you think has the best Cavalry bodyguards? I absolutely love using killer family members on horse.

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Oh, that must be some eastern faction. Sauromatae? Pahlava? Saka Rauka? Hayasdan? I don't hang around there much (my naked guys only want one stick hanging from their bodies, and that area tend to interfere with that goal), so I can't say for sure. Some might even argue for the Greek Somatophylakes Strategaou for their nicely balanced armour:mobility ratio; all those I've mentioned above, though, are excellent choices as far as cavalry generals goes.

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Originally Posted by Spartan498

Thanks everyone!

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No problem. :bow:

1. You can't. Basically, 'elite' troops always cost more than than regular units of the same basic type (spearman, swordsman, cavalryman, whatever) from the same faction. Don't compare with other factions since their pricing structure could be different. Greeks have to pay more for everything than Gauls do, for instance, Greeks demand more pay. There are no cheap elites!

2. The morale rating isn't listed, so you have to rely on unit descriptions. Buildings that add morale to units built there will improve the rating.

3. Units which say 'effective against armour' definitely are. Other units may be, or may not be. Slingers are armour piercing, archers are not.

4. Best cavalry bodyguards? Lots of them are the best in their local region. Gauls are the best in the north-west, Macedon are the best in civilised Mediterranean, the Parthians, Sauromatae and Saka all have very good bodyguards too.


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Originally Posted by Titus Marcellus Scato

3. Units which say 'effective against armour' definitely are. Other units may be, or may not be. Slingers are armour piercing, archers are not.

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But which unit is better? Slingers or archers?

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Originally Posted by Titus Marcellus Scato

4. Best cavalry bodyguards? Lots of them are the best in their local region. Gauls are the best in the north-west, Macedon are the best in civilised Mediterranean, the Parthians, Sauromatae and Saka all have very good bodyguards too.

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Iberii Lancers?

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Originally Posted by Drunk Clown

But which unit is better? Slingers or archers?

Iberii Lancers?

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slingers are better against armor while archers are better against non armoured or lightly armoured troops.

sauromate FM are the best cav in the whole game.... they're the Tanks Tiger IV of antiquity, immo4rtal to arrows with a 42 charge... (when not retrained)

Well most of your stuff has been answered already so I add some stuff.

1. Most elite units can be recognized by their name, they usually have elite or royal and sometimes noble. A unit with heavy in the name is usually not elite but a level lower (still very strong).

Apart from that it is quite easy to guess. Sacred Band for instance is easily catagorized.

4. Sauromatae all the way, I did a custom battle test, one group of Sauro BG (heavily upgraded) against 2400 gallic swordsmen. I think the Sauro's barely lost half.

But really, a good cavalry commander can use Sauro BGs to wipe the enemy off the face of the earth. Also the ultra armoured late Hayasdan, Pahlava and Baktrian fms are near invincible in the hands of the player. Saka late BG is just almost as good as the Sauro, only thing is they don't shoot arrows.

~Fluvius

Hetairoi Kataphraktoi are better than Sauros, IMO, but they come so late in the game...

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Originally Posted by Duguntz

sauromate FM are the best cav in the whole game.... they're the Tanks Tiger IV of antiquity, immo4rtal to arrows with a 42 charge... (when not retrained)

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They are definitely overpowered. I just used a 41-strong Sauro FM (who was out of arrows) to charge a full strength unit of 162 Greek levy hoplites head on - and they annihilated the hoplites in straight-up melee (no repeated charging) without losing a single man!

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Originally Posted by Titus Marcellus Scato

They are definitely overpowered. I just used a 41-strong Sauro FM (who was out of arrows) to charge a full strength unit of 162 Greek levy hoplites head on - and they annihilated the hoplites in straight-up melee (no repeated charging) without losing a single man!

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Well the Sarmatians were feared in Rome for their excellent Horsemanship and cavalry.... Also this example of yours isn't that incredible at all. IRL The charge in itself would be devastating; A huge portion of the Hoplites would fall, and since they were levy, they would rout pretty quickly. Perhaps you would loose a few men in the charge... But still my money is that IRL 41 Elite Sarmatian Cataphracts would defeat 160 levy spearmen

They're not overpowered. They had a (known)worldwide reputation of exelent horsemanship, and in the city where I study (bucharest) there's the exact replica, full size, of the Trajan's column, and they depict sarmatians horseman, whole armies clad in armour from their head till the hooves of their horses... only the sheer weight of their charge impact would be devastating even for hardened spearmen. we're speaking about a (let's speak in EB numbers) 100 x 600 kilos (of corse, it's all about, as each horse weight differently, I make an average of horse plus armour plus guy in armour on it... and 600 kilo, is with the consideration that the horses used by nomad weren't the super heavy horses used in Feudal France)... so no, they're not overpowered

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Originally Posted by Duguntz

They're not overpowered.

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I agree. In real life these 160 levy spearmen would have started running for their lives well before the sarmatian charge. Also in game terms you should consider that receiving a heavy cavalry charge is a massive hit to morale + the massive losses incurred also hit morale hard = rout. So no wonder these 41 sarmatians rout 160 levy hoplites without losses. On the other hand if the sarmatians were calmly standing and would get charged by hoplites, they surely would suffer losses and likely lose.

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Originally Posted by Duguntz

They're not overpowered.

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I think they're a little overpowered in terms of prolonged melee. They are certainly fine in terms of the charge, but the fact that they can simply wade through spears while getting stabbed constantly and survive is a bit silly. A slowly walking horse makes a pretty big target for a spear, even if it is covered in armor.

Well as i see it, we think of battles in a TW way; It's to "mathematic" for being IRL.
Try putting yourself in the skin of a levy spearmen; the enemy charges, half of the guys you talked to 30 minutes ago are dead, the guys on Horses around you are completly filled with metal, they are 1 meter taller then you; there's screaming everywhere, horses are passing you on both sides, you try to stab one but change your mind because you see one on your left, you turn around to meet him but get stabbed in the back by another one :). I would rout from this at the start of my tale :)

Perhaps to imaginary i don't know, but imagine how hard it must've been thinking straight if your not used to fight in wars, and face such a calamity... I myself believe that it may very well happen that 40 Sarmatian Knights defeat in such way 160 levy spearmen.

I wasn't specifically talking about the levy hoplites, I think they should easily defeat the levies, in fact, if they're untrained levies, they should probably rout on impact or even before (facing down a cavalry charge must be terrifying).

I was talking more about how elite cataphracts in general can wade around in non-levy spear formations for a while before dying. But, I think it's probably necessary to give them that high of a defense because they should be able to hold very well in melee against cavalry for instance. I personally try to roleplay and not let even my super-heavy cavalry get bogged down in prolonged melees with higher level spear units because I find it a bit ahistorical, so I don't think it's really much of an issue.

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Originally Posted by WinsingtonIII

I think they're a little overpowered in terms of prolonged melee. They are certainly fine in terms of the charge, but the fact that they can simply wade through spears while getting stabbed constantly and survive is a bit silly. A slowly walking horse makes a pretty big target for a spear, even if it is covered in armor.

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Anubis is correct. The game is too much of a mathematical model. But so is everything on these binary system-based machines. Consider this: in my film "What If", you can clearly see the Roman consul and his sole remaining bodyguard being shot with hundreds of arrows head-on but not being wounded. There are no wounds in RTW. Eventually, with time, the dice roll double six and you win and the consul falls.

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Originally Posted by vartan

Anubis is correct. The game is too much of a mathematical model. But so is everything on these binary system-based machines. Consider this: in my film "What If", you can clearly see the Roman consul and his sole remaining bodyguard being shot with hundreds of arrows head-on but not being wounded. There are no wounds in RTW. Eventually, with time, the dice roll double six and you win and the consul falls.

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I know, which is why I roleplay and try to pull even my heaviest cavalry out of melee with spears after a short time. It's just a limitation of the game engine that they can survive for so long in that situation.

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Originally Posted by anubis88

Well the Sarmatians were feared in Rome for their excellent Horsemanship and cavalry.... Also this example of yours isn't that incredible at all. IRL The charge in itself would be devastating; A huge portion of the Hoplites would fall, and since they were levy, they would rout pretty quickly. Perhaps you would loose a few men in the charge... But still my money is that IRL 41 Elite Sarmatian Cataphracts would defeat 160 levy spearmen

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If you know anything about Greek Levy Hoplites, you'd know that they are one of the toughest levy units in the game, with high morale. They don't rout easily. They're as tough to kill as Roman Hastati. This particular unit didn't rout until they were down to less than 30 men. Which means the Sauro FM killed about 30 in the initial charge, then killed another 100 in melee, without suffering any casualties at all in return. (Both the Sauros and the Greeks started the fight completely exhausted from running around chasing other units earlier in the battle).

When cavalry kill three times their own number of spearmen, in melee, without losing a single man in return, before the enemy rout, I start worrying that something's not right on the realism front. Just 2 or 3 Sarmatian casualties would have been enough to convince me the game was working right. But no losses at all? That's suspicious IMO.

They are unbalanced on a strategic level, as you as the player can exploit the fact they are free to recruit and can create huge armies of what are basically medieval knights, in a society that had very little access to the iron and bronze required to create such units.

²
Besides, an AI with poorly armoured heavy shock cavalry would be even easier to beat as I quite frequently see AI heavy cavalry (whether armoured or not) staying in melee for prolongued periods.

But as to the OP'er: the best cavalry-bodyguard would definitly be eastern. Depending on whether you want agile and decently armoured shock cavalry (Epeiros, but even more Macedonia, Seleukeia or Ptolemaions), armoured horse archers (Pahlava, Saka Rauka,...) or just excessively armoured shock cavalry (late Pahlavan bodyguards, Bactria,...). It's up to you.

kind regards,

Andy

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Originally Posted by WinsingtonIII

I know, which is why I roleplay and try to pull even my heaviest cavalry out of melee with spears after a short time. It's just a limitation of the game engine that they can survive for so long in that situation.

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Make sure you use the melee weapon if you play another human.

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Originally Posted by vartan

Make sure you use the melee weapon if you play another human.

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I generally alt click once in melee against the AI too, although I believe it's been stated a couple times on these forums that for lancer cavalry with low-lethality secondaries (such as the kopis), the lance (despite being slow and having a low attack without the charge) is actually more deadly even in prolonged melee simply because the lethality is so high (.3-.4 generally). This isn't true for lancers with better secondaries though.

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Originally Posted by WinsingtonIII

I generally alt click once in melee against the AI too, although I believe it's been stated a couple times on these forums that for lancer cavalry with low-lethality secondaries (such as the kopis), the lance (despite being slow and having a low attack without the charge) is actually more deadly even in prolonged melee simply because the lethality is so high (.3-.4 generally). This isn't true for lancers with better secondaries though.

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I do so also most of the time but sometimes it's quite annoying: Your superior cavalry (with some good swordattack e.g.) loses against a lance cavalry (with AP lances) although that other cavalry is not meant to fight well in melee.

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Originally Posted by Kival

I do so also most of the time but sometimes it's quite annoying: Your superior cavalry (with some good swordattack e.g.) loses against a lance cavalry (with AP lances) although that other cavalry is not meant to fight well in melee.

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Yeah it's quite annoying. Luckily, in EB2 this problem should be solved, because in M2TW cavalry units automatically switch to their secondary after the charge and I believe they have to wait a short time for their lances to "regenerate" before they can charge with them again.

The Late Baktrian bodyguard is the best that I've come across. It really depends on the region though. Carthage's bodyguard will basically beat the crap out of everyone in the west, but they're not anywhere near some of the eastern units, I think.

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Originally Posted by Kival

I do so also most of the time but sometimes it's quite annoying: Your superior cavalry (with some good swordattack e.g.) loses against a lance cavalry (with AP lances) although that other cavalry is not meant to fight well in melee.

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The secondary isn't meant for single player =]

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Originally Posted by vartan

The secondary isn't meant for single player =]

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The lethality of the lances don't change in multiplayer, I remember ASM was talking about this a while back, some lancer cavalry are simply better in prolonged melees with their lances than with their secondaries. Considering it's just a lethality issue, it shouldn't matter who you're playing, because it all comes down to stats in this case.

Het Kats have a cool looking AP kopis that only generals have otherwise....

Thanks everyone for your feedback. Leads me to a followup question regarding the strongest cavalry. I'd like to do some of my own testing but when I go to the Custom Battle, every faction I see only has a like 5 choices of cavalry and most of them are mercenaries. I don't even see the option to pick the FM Cavalry for factions like Sauro or Saka. What am I doing wrong?

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Originally Posted by Spartan498

Thanks everyone for your feedback. Leads me to a followup question regarding the strongest cavalry. I'd like to do some of my own testing but when I go to the Custom Battle, every faction I see only has a like 5 choices of cavalry and most of them are mercenaries. I don't even see the option to pick the FM Cavalry for factions like Sauro or Saka. What am I doing wrong?

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For playing the right costum battles, you must start EB with the Multi-player shortcut