Fairly New to EB - Some questions

[Duguntz]

sauromate FM are the best cav in the whole game.... they're the Tanks Tiger IV of antiquity, immo4rtal to arrows with a 42 charge... (when not retrained)

[Fluvius Camillus]

Well most of your stuff has been answered already so I add some stuff.

1. Most elite units can be recognized by their name, they usually have elite or royal and sometimes noble. A unit with heavy in the name is usually not elite but a level lower (still very strong).

Apart from that it is quite easy to guess. Sacred Band for instance is easily catagorized.

4. Sauromatae all the way, I did a custom battle test, one group of Sauro BG (heavily upgraded) against 2400 gallic swordsmen. I think the Sauro's barely lost half.

But really, a good cavalry commander can use Sauro BGs to wipe the enemy off the face of the earth. Also the ultra armoured late Hayasdan, Pahlava and Baktrian fms are near invincible in the hands of the player. Saka late BG is just almost as good as the Sauro, only thing is they don't shoot arrows.

~Fluvius

[Hannibal Khan the Great]

Hetairoi Kataphraktoi are better than Sauros, IMO, but they come so late in the game...

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

sauromate FM are the best cav in the whole game.... they're the Tanks Tiger IV of antiquity, immo4rtal to arrows with a 42 charge... (when not retrained)

They are definitely overpowered. I just used a 41-strong Sauro FM (who was out of arrows) to charge a full strength unit of 162 Greek levy hoplites head on - and they annihilated the hoplites in straight-up melee (no repeated charging) without losing a single man!

[anubis88]

They are definitely overpowered. I just used a 41-strong Sauro FM (who was out of arrows) to charge a full strength unit of 162 Greek levy hoplites head on - and they annihilated the hoplites in straight-up melee (no repeated charging) without losing a single man!

Well the Sarmatians were feared in Rome for their excellent Horsemanship and cavalry.... Also this example of yours isn't that incredible at all. IRL The charge in itself would be devastating; A huge portion of the Hoplites would fall, and since they were levy, they would rout pretty quickly. Perhaps you would loose a few men in the charge... But still my money is that IRL 41 Elite Sarmatian Cataphracts would defeat 160 levy spearmen

[Duguntz]

They're not overpowered. They had a (known)worldwide reputation of exelent horsemanship, and in the city where I study (bucharest) there's the exact replica, full size, of the Trajan's column, and they depict sarmatians horseman, whole armies clad in armour from their head till the hooves of their horses... only the sheer weight of their charge impact would be devastating even for hardened spearmen. we're speaking about a (let's speak in EB numbers) 100 x 600 kilos (of corse, it's all about, as each horse weight differently, I make an average of horse plus armour plus guy in armour on it... and 600 kilo, is with the consideration that the horses used by nomad weren't the super heavy horses used in Feudal France)... so no, they're not overpowered

[Silence Hunter]

They're not overpowered.

I agree. In real life these 160 levy spearmen would have started running for their lives well before the sarmatian charge. Also in game terms you should consider that receiving a heavy cavalry charge is a massive hit to morale + the massive losses incurred also hit morale hard = rout. So no wonder these 41 sarmatians rout 160 levy hoplites without losses. On the other hand if the sarmatians were calmly standing and would get charged by hoplites, they surely would suffer losses and likely lose.

[WinsingtonIII]

They're not overpowered.

I think they're a little overpowered in terms of prolonged melee. They are certainly fine in terms of the charge, but the fact that they can simply wade through spears while getting stabbed constantly and survive is a bit silly. A slowly walking horse makes a pretty big target for a spear, even if it is covered in armor.

[anubis88]

Well as i see it, we think of battles in a TW way; It's to "mathematic" for being IRL.
Try putting yourself in the skin of a levy spearmen; the enemy charges, half of the guys you talked to 30 minutes ago are dead, the guys on Horses around you are completly filled with metal, they are 1 meter taller then you; there's screaming everywhere, horses are passing you on both sides, you try to stab one but change your mind because you see one on your left, you turn around to meet him but get stabbed in the back by another one :). I would rout from this at the start of my tale :)

Perhaps to imaginary i don't know, but imagine how hard it must've been thinking straight if your not used to fight in wars, and face such a calamity... I myself believe that it may very well happen that 40 Sarmatian Knights defeat in such way 160 levy spearmen.

[WinsingtonIII]

I wasn't specifically talking about the levy hoplites, I think they should easily defeat the levies, in fact, if they're untrained levies, they should probably rout on impact or even before (facing down a cavalry charge must be terrifying).

I was talking more about how elite cataphracts in general can wade around in non-levy spear formations for a while before dying. But, I think it's probably necessary to give them that high of a defense because they should be able to hold very well in melee against cavalry for instance. I personally try to roleplay and not let even my super-heavy cavalry get bogged down in prolonged melees with higher level spear units because I find it a bit ahistorical, so I don't think it's really much of an issue.

[vartan]

I think they're a little overpowered in terms of prolonged melee. They are certainly fine in terms of the charge, but the fact that they can simply wade through spears while getting stabbed constantly and survive is a bit silly. A slowly walking horse makes a pretty big target for a spear, even if it is covered in armor.

Anubis is correct. The game is too much of a mathematical model. But so is everything on these binary system-based machines. Consider this: in my film "What If", you can clearly see the Roman consul and his sole remaining bodyguard being shot with hundreds of arrows head-on but not being wounded. There are no wounds in RTW. Eventually, with time, the dice roll double six and you win and the consul falls.

[WinsingtonIII]

Anubis is correct. The game is too much of a mathematical model. But so is everything on these binary system-based machines. Consider this: in my film "What If", you can clearly see the Roman consul and his sole remaining bodyguard being shot with hundreds of arrows head-on but not being wounded. There are no wounds in RTW. Eventually, with time, the dice roll double six and you win and the consul falls.

I know, which is why I roleplay and try to pull even my heaviest cavalry out of melee with spears after a short time. It's just a limitation of the game engine that they can survive for so long in that situation.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

Well the Sarmatians were feared in Rome for their excellent Horsemanship and cavalry.... Also this example of yours isn't that incredible at all. IRL The charge in itself would be devastating; A huge portion of the Hoplites would fall, and since they were levy, they would rout pretty quickly. Perhaps you would loose a few men in the charge... But still my money is that IRL 41 Elite Sarmatian Cataphracts would defeat 160 levy spearmen

If you know anything about Greek Levy Hoplites, you'd know that they are one of the toughest levy units in the game, with high morale. They don't rout easily. They're as tough to kill as Roman Hastati. This particular unit didn't rout until they were down to less than 30 men. Which means the Sauro FM killed about 30 in the initial charge, then killed another 100 in melee, without suffering any casualties at all in return. (Both the Sauros and the Greeks started the fight completely exhausted from running around chasing other units earlier in the battle).

When cavalry kill three times their own number of spearmen, in melee, without losing a single man in return, before the enemy rout, I start worrying that something's not right on the realism front. Just 2 or 3 Sarmatian casualties would have been enough to convince me the game was working right. But no losses at all? That's suspicious IMO.

[Subotan]

They are unbalanced on a strategic level, as you as the player can exploit the fact they are free to recruit and can create huge armies of what are basically medieval knights, in a society that had very little access to the iron and bronze required to create such units.

[Andy1984]

²
Besides, an AI with poorly armoured heavy shock cavalry would be even easier to beat as I quite frequently see AI heavy cavalry (whether armoured or not) staying in melee for prolongued periods.

But as to the OP'er: the best cavalry-bodyguard would definitly be eastern. Depending on whether you want agile and decently armoured shock cavalry (Epeiros, but even more Macedonia, Seleukeia or Ptolemaions), armoured horse archers (Pahlava, Saka Rauka,...) or just excessively armoured shock cavalry (late Pahlavan bodyguards, Bactria,...). It's up to you.

kind regards,

Andy