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How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
As many of you may know, President Obama wants to end "Don't ask, don't tell". There is currently some drama in Washington over whether it should be done before or after a military review of the possible effects of the repeal of the policy.
The main line of opposition to the change seems to be centered on a fear that it will affect readiness.
Quote:
The chiefs said they wanted to await the Dec. 1 study ordered by Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates. Army Gen. George W. Casey Jr. said he had "serious concerns" about what a policy of open homosexuality would do to military readiness. Gen. James T. Conway, the Marine Corps commandant, said he was flatly opposed to lifting the ban.
I'm having a hard time coming up with any specific scenarios in which such a negative impact would occur. The closest thing to a specific example I have yet seen comes from Retired Air Force Gen. Charles Horner.
Quote:
Gen. Horner, a former fighter pilot, said he supports the ban because he fears military readiness will suffer if open homosexuals are allowed to serve, "particularly given the land forces, the way they have to live and operate."
Asked how an Air Force fighter wing will accept openly gay personnel, he said: "There's a lot less prejudice nowadays against people who are gay, but that does not necessarily mean that people want to live side by side with them."
Is this it? I'm sure many in the military don't want to live in hot, nasty, backwater nations full of people that are less than hygienic by Western standards. They do it anyway.
It seems strange to me that we have a policy in place that essentially acknowledges that there are gays serving, but saying as much openly will apparently deeply effect our military's ability in the field.
Can anybody, specifically our military affiliated members, shed some light on this? Would openly gay comrades destroy morale? Would you be less willing to fight? Would you not be able to shower in peace?
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
I think it was Sigurd, or a different European ex-army forum member who served with openly homosexual males. They commented that they didn't have any issues at all.
There is nothing wrong with openly homosexual men in the army, it won't affect any morale, except of that of homophobes or the homosexuals who may become victims of bullying by the said homophobes. In otherwords, the issue is with the homophobes, not the homosexuals.
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
Gay men and women already serve. If there was an issue with that, we would've seen a bunch of scandals. We have not. And the military showers I've been in have all been extremely gay anyway...
Heck, a lot of people also believe that women aren't fit to be soldiers, completely ignorant of the many female heroes of the Red Army. Female soldiers have proven their worth. It's ridiculous to believe that gay soldiers will be worse.
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
If this is anything like the mud being slung in DC now, I'm sure its doing everyone a power of good.
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
Don't care. Served with them for 16 years - no problems. In the 70's the primary official objection was that being homosexual made one a target for blackmail, and therefore a security concern. That's no longer operable as a threat, I think.
Here's my concern: some cultures we operate in still have strict sanctions against homosexuality. Might that affect the operational missions there, if the host country/ally refuses to interact with our gay soldiers? And if so, will our military think it therefore necessary to identify gays officially and manage their assignments? I would not like that. "Joe, John & Larry: you're off to Saudi Arabia. Stuart, you're gay so can't go there, it's off to Greenland for you."
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
The net loss is bigger than the net gain.
I believe that's the core of the ban.
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
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Originally Posted by
Vladimir
The net loss is bigger than the net gain.
I believe that's the core of the ban.
Those who support the ban also believe that gay people caused Screbrenica.
Why on earth should we listen to people like that, let alone have them decide our future?
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
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Originally Posted by
HoreTore
Gay men and women already serve. If there was an issue with that, we would've seen a bunch of scandals. We have not. And the military showers I've been in have all been extremely gay anyway...
Heck, a lot of people also believe that women aren't fit to be soldiers, completely ignorant of the many female heroes of the Red Army. Female soldiers have proven their worth. It's ridiculous to believe that gay soldiers will be worse.
x2 Though they'll be a few homophobes having a hissy fit it won't affect anything else negatively. It's not like it'll turn the whole military into a big gay lovefest as some might think.
As for people in host countries having problems with it, well they can also file it under us having females not covered up, driving trucks, flying jets and so on.
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
KukriKhan
Don't care. Served with them for 16 years - no problems. In the 70's the primary official objection was that being homosexual made one a target for blackmail, and therefore a security concern. That's no longer operable as a threat, I think.
Here's my concern: some cultures we operate in still have strict sanctions against homosexuality. Might that affect the operational missions there, if the host country/ally refuses to interact with our gay soldiers? And if so, will our military think it therefore necessary to identify gays officially and manage their assignments? I would not like that. "Joe, John & Larry: you're off to Saudi Arabia. Stuart, you're gay so can't go there, it's off to Greenland for you."
Would that last not also apply to women in the Armed Forces too?
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
More or less an inevitable change, really.
Any reasonable student of history can point out that homosexuality has never been a quality that decreased one's ability to wage war. If anything, history might suggest that it was a "plus" for soldiering.
During the transition, unit cohesion will, initially, suffer and openly gay serving will bear the brunt of ostracism and some abuse. Neither the loss of unit cohesion nor the ostracism will be as crippling as their respective proponents are asserting at the present time. As higher-ups police this up a bit, the culture will begin to change. We did this in the 1950s with race -- took a while, but everyone learned the lesson and we were better for it in the long run. While sexuality and race aren't directly parallel, I think you can make a good parallel of how things will change.
Women serving in combat should work the same way. Some roles/specialties will be largely unavailable to women based on purely physical requirements -- but those same requirements should be screening out a lot of the swinging richards as well. Set the appropriate standards and whoever meets those standards can get the billet. However, Israel supposedly had some evidence that women casualties were disproportionately distracting to male soldiers -- might be something that has to be looked into.
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
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Originally Posted by
Seamus Fermanagh
Women serving in combat should work the same way. Some roles/specialties will be largely unavailable to women based on purely physical requirements -- but those same requirements should be screening out a lot of the swinging richards as well.
Indeed.
The fear of "sissyfying" the military seems to be an underlying current among the supporters of the ban.
Ignoring the fact that feminine acting gays probably wouldn't be interested in joining the military, at least not in combat roles, if a soldier is unable to perform his or her job, he or she would be removed regardless of sexuality. For example, Sacha Baron Cohen's Bruno would not make it in the military simply because he wouldn't be able to perform as a soldier.
I think some of the Joint Chiefs fail to understand that sexuality is not a personality trait.
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
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Originally Posted by
spmetla
It's not like it'll turn the whole military into a big gay lovefest as some might think.
No, it won't turn the military into a big gay lovefest.... The military IS a big gay lovefest....
I believe homophobes have a much harder time in the army now than any gay ever will. Once you let people know that you don't enjoy having other males touch your fanny in a loving way, you can bet your ass that every time a platoon member walks by you in the future, your ass will be lovingly caressed...
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
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Originally Posted by
HoreTore
No, it won't turn the military into a big gay lovefest.... The military IS a big gay lovefest....
I believe homophobes have a much harder time in the army now than any gay ever will. Once you let people know that you don't enjoy having other males touch your fanny in a loving way, you can bet your ass that every time a platoon member walks by you in the future, your ass will be lovingly caressed...
:laugh4: Ain't that the truth sweet-cheeks! Pseudo-gay imitations are apparently an international standard for passing time in the military.
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
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Originally Posted by
spmetla
:laugh4: Ain't that the truth sweet-cheeks! Pseudo-gay imitations are apparently an international standard for passing time in the military.
So that scene from Jarhead was accurate? :kiss:
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
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Originally Posted by
spmetla
:laugh4: Ain't that the truth sweet-cheeks! Pseudo-gay imitations are apparently an international standard for passing time in the military.
Yes, we'll all feel a lot better about ourselves if we convince ourselves that it's all an act, that it's just imitation...
I don't buy it however.
Males in their first year in the military are typically young, inexperienced and for many it's the first time away from mommy. We were all thrown into a macho enviroment without anyone to comfort us. Let's face it; humans need a calming touch, like the one your parents or girlfriend will give. Unfortunately, they're not in the military. And since providing such comfort to another man is GAY, and just admitting that you need it is unmanly, we created the gay jokes as an excuse to touch each other without being accused of being gay.
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
The best way to have cohesion in the army is for every soldier to be a white, heterosexual, male, Anglo-Saxon Protestant.
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
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Originally Posted by
Rhyfelwyr
The best way to have cohesion in the army is for every soldier to be a white, heterosexual, male, Anglo-Saxon Protestant.
Is it now? What about the guy who insists on listening to RnB when the others like rock?
What about the really religious guy thrown in the midst of secular soldiers who hate preachers?
What about the guy who is openly racist on a team where the other members have good african american friends?
And the list goes on....
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
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Originally Posted by
HoreTore
What about the really religious guy thrown in the midst of secular soldiers who hate preachers?
As I said they should all be Protestants.
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Originally Posted by
HoreTore
What about the guy who is openly racist on a team where the other members have good african american friends?
As I said they should all be white, preferably Anglo-Saxon.
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Originally Posted by
HoreTore
Is it now? What about the guy who insists on listening to RnB when the others like rock?
As long as they share their WASP heritage I don't think these minor issues matter. We don't all have to be the exact same, they're going to fight the communists you know!
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
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Originally Posted by
Rhyfelwyr
As I said they should all be Protestants.
There's no difference in how religious people are in your world?
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Originally Posted by
Rhyfelwyr
As I said they should all be white, preferably Anglo-Saxon.
And no white people have black friends....?
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Originally Posted by
Rhyfelwyr
As long as they share their WASP heritage I don't think these minor issues matter. We don't all have to be the exact same, they're going to fight the communists you know!
One of the main reasons we hated one guy in our platoon was because of his insistance to listen to and talk about his hiphop crap that nobody else could stand. The reason that was my first point was because of real experience ~;)
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
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Originally Posted by
HoreTore
There's no difference in how religious people are in your world?
Jesus said you are either for him or against him., there is no middle ground.
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Originally Posted by
HoreTore
And no white people have black friends....?
No, that would be immoral.
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Originally Posted by
HoreTore
One of the main reasons we hated one guy in our platoon was because of his insistance to listen to and talk about his hiphop crap that nobody else could stand. The reason that was my first point was because of real experience ~;)
If you are so filled with hate as to ostracise someone over their taste of music, then I am sorry that you are such an intolerant person.
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
Haha, that was awesome, Rhy.
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
It will be curious to see how this will fare out. I hope nobody will attack each other any more in the Army.
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
Eighteen years ago when our anti-gay military policies were repealed, many high ranking officials kicked up a big stink, but after a few months everyone forgot all about it. I'm pretty sure that if we still had those policies in the military, that it would be against our anti-discrimination laws, and some enterprising gay person would have sued the government by now.
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
There are great costs to not having gays in the army. Talent is wasted, identification with a large segment of society is undermined. There are legitimacy concerns if the army is far out of tune with society - although this argument works in reverse too: if society disaproves of gays, the legitimacy of the army is undermined by having them.
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
[stereotyping]
Why prevent buff, fit gay men from serving? Our hetero male soldier pool is increasingly fat and out of shape.
And there are some lesbians that frankly scare me, I pretty certain they could kick my tail. :hide:
[/stereotyping]
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
Women are a way bigger pain in the butt to accomadate in the military.
You try to retrofit a sub tohave seperate female quarter
The problem is that they are accomadated rather than integrated
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
Depends on the sub/crew. They come in various editions, some with more luxury than others. ~;) But yes, those which are supposed to serve at minimum risk of detection run sleeping shifts as much as ordinary shifts (3 people sharing the same bed, IIRC). It's the only part of the military in the Netherlands where that argument is actually upheld and consequentially women cannot serve.
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
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Originally Posted by
drone
[stereotyping]
Why prevent buff, fit gay men from serving? Our hetero male soldier pool is increasingly fat and out of shape.
And there are some lesbians that frankly scare me, I pretty certain they could kick my tail. :hide:
[/stereotyping]
I work out with Vibeke Skofterud, lesbian olympic gold winner. She will have absolutely no problems kicking my arse.
And nobody felt to comment on whether the gay jokes in the army really are jokes? Not even you, Louis, had something to say to that? ~:mecry:
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
In the past (early ninties) i supported "don't tell" policy because the culture generally, and the culture in the armed forces particularly, was less tolerent than it is today. having homosexuals openly serving would have been a source of strife and would have reduced effectiveness.
That it is not the world we live in today, in the same way that equality has beaten out of the British male the instinctive desire to protect women, that in its day would also have seriously undermined unit effectiveness, so what i am saying is bring on a Starship Troopers world where social hang-ups play second fiddle to ability.
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
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Originally Posted by
HoreTore
I work out with
Vibeke Skofterud, lesbian olympic gold winner. She will have absolutely no problems kicking my arse.
And nobody felt to comment on whether the gay jokes in the army really are jokes? Not even you, Louis, had something to say to that? ~:mecry:
Well I'm of the opinion that most of it is joking. The people that probably are gay aren't doing the horseplay. A fair bit of what I've seen reminds more of the interaction between my brother and I, when we found something that annoyed the other we of course had to do that more to provoke a reaction. I see no difference with military gay immitations, the more vivid or disgusted the reaction the more likely that person will be hit on by the 'fake gays.' Being a quiet type I was initially the target of said annoying fake gays and the best way to stop being hassled by them is do that right back, then it seems to have lost it's fun because I wasn't giving the paniced disgusted reaction anymore.
Yeah, there's probably a few closet gays doing the fake gay acting but I still think most military guys are doing that as just horseplay/bordem.
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
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Originally Posted by
spmetla
Yeah, there's probably a few closet gays doing the fake gay acting but I still think most military guys are doing that as just horseplay/bordem.
Closet gays? Nonono, you misunderstood my meaning completely.
They are not homosexual in any way, they are simply heterosexual males looking for comfort and closeness in new ways after their previous souces for that have been taken away from them.
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
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Originally Posted by
Furunculus
That it is not the world we live in today, in the same way that equality has beaten out of the British male the instinctive desire to protect women, that in its day would also have seriously undermined unit effectiveness, so what i am saying is bring on a Starship Troopers world where social hang-ups play second fiddle to ability.
If this is true than British soldiers have lost part of their humanity.
I belive it has more to do with male service members coming to appreciate the value a woman can add to a team...and the sex, of course.
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
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Originally Posted by
Vladimir
If this is true than British soldiers have lost part of their humanity.
I belive it has more to do with male service members coming to appreciate the value a woman can add to a team...and the sex, of course.
why?
it hasn't stopped any human insticnt from helping other people in general, or helping those who are vulnerable in particular, so what?
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
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Originally Posted by
Furunculus
why?
it hasn't stopped any human insticnt from helping other people in general, or helping those who are vulnerable in particular, so what?
The same applies to children and small furry things. It's never good to have protective instincts "beaten out of" someone.
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
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Originally Posted by
Vladimir
If this is true than British soldiers have lost part of their humanity.
I belive it has more to do with male service members coming to appreciate the value a woman can add to a team...and the sex, of course.
Why on earth should I as a male have a need to protect women? I have a need to protect children, yes, but that's because children are inferior to me, an adult. Women, however, are far from inferior and in no need of special protection.
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Furunculus
That it is not the world we live in today, in the same way that equality has beaten out of the British male the instinctive desire to protect women, that in its day would also have seriously undermined unit effectiveness, so what i am saying is bring on a Starship Troopers world where social hang-ups play second fiddle to ability.
I highly support the Starship Troopers set-up. We should have more females not just in the army, but other physical activities as well. May it be the police, fire-fighting and others.
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
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Originally Posted by
Beskar
I highly support the Starship Troopers set-up. We should have more females not just in the army, but other physical activities as well. May it be the police, fire-fighting and others.
There are, however, plenty of them already in the most dangerous job in the world; farming.
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
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Originally Posted by
HoreTore
Why on earth should I as a male have a need to protect women? I have a need to protect children, yes, but that's because children are inferior to me, an adult. Women, however, are far from inferior and in no need of special protection.
Surely women are physically less well suited to a combat environment on the whole than men? And I expect they are less well emotionally suited as well. This isn't mysoginist trolling, the psychological differences between men and women are raised even by feminists, who complain that things like politics have been too dominated by a male-mindset, hence realism etc. Women tend to have more of a caring attitude, whereas men see things more in terms of duty and contracts etc.
This may be due to social rather than biological factors (though I doubt it is solely), but it is still nonetheless relevant.
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
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Originally Posted by
Rhyfelwyr
Surely women are physically less well suited to a combat environment on the whole than men? And I expect they are less well emotionally suited as well.
If your sister/mother/girlfriend is a weak little baby then fine. But the thousands of female combat veterans from around the world proves you wrong.
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
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Originally Posted by
HoreTore
If your sister/mother/girlfriend is a weak little baby then fine. But the thousands of female combat veterans from around the world proves you wrong.
tbh, I cannot think of one girl from my class at school that would have been likely to do well in a combat environment. But then again this isn't Scandinavia where women chew tobacco and act in a most unseemly manner. *snob*
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
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Originally Posted by
Vladimir
The same applies to children and small furry things. It's never good to have protective instincts "beaten out of" someone.
hold on their chuckles, didn't just say that there was no particular dimunition in the expectation of helping the vulnerable?
what i am talking about is the overbearing chivalry that rendered israeli male soldiers combat inneffective when israeli female soldiers where injured or exposed to mortal threat, a factor that wasn't present when men were in the same situation.
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
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Originally Posted by
Rhyfelwyr
Jesus said you are either for him or against him., there is no middle ground.
Only Sith deals in absolutes.
sorry couldn't resist...
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rhyfelwyr
Surely women are physically less well suited to a combat environment on the whole than men? And I expect they are less well emotionally suited as well. This isn't mysoginist trolling, the psychological differences between men and women are raised even by feminists, who complain that things like politics have been too dominated by a male-mindset, hence realism etc. Women tend to have more of a caring attitude, whereas men see things more in terms of duty and contracts etc.
This may be due to social rather than biological factors (though I doubt it is solely), but it is still nonetheless relevant.
this is true in general, if not in particular, given that militaries have training standards that must be conformed to, so while you would expect less woman to end up as infantry those that do make it should be capable of equally arduous activity.
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
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Originally Posted by
Furunculus
this is true in general, if not in particular, given that militaries have training standards that must be conformed to, so while you would expect less woman to end up as infantry those that do make it should be capable of equally arduous activity.
But the ones who CAN hack it should get the shot. Moreover, there are scads of combat slots where the inability to make pickup on a buddy is largely irrelevant (most aircrew, MBT crew [okay, loader is unlikely], etc.).
That was NOT true in Starship Troopers (LOVE that book) by the way, Heinlein's MI was an all guy outfit and, therefore, so were all of the supreme command cadre since they had to have both commanded a ship AND a regiment to get selected for that command billet.
Integration is, long-term, the only viable answer. Rules will have to be set that prevent the inevitable fornication from interfering with duty/readiness and enforced harshly at first, but the transition can be made.
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
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Originally Posted by
Seamus Fermanagh
But the ones who CAN hack it should get the shot. Moreover, there are scads of combat slots where the inability to make pickup on a buddy is largely irrelevant (most aircrew, MBT crew [okay, loader is unlikely], etc.).
That was NOT true in Starship Troopers (LOVE that book) by the way, Heinlein's MI was an all guy outfit and, therefore, so were all of the supreme command cadre since they had to have both commanded a ship AND a regiment to get selected for that command billet.
agreed.
i am only thinking of the shower scene from the film......... :aries:
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Furunculus
agreed.
i am only thinking of the shower scene from the film......... :aries:
I loathed the depiction of the arachnids in the film, I mean, they were a space-faring race in the book with satrapies among other species and all we get is a screaming bug with no weaponry and less tactical sense than the creature in Alien? Sheesh....
On the other hand, as I have the same "infantile bias" Lars sometimes displays in the babe thread, I would have to note that video of athletically-built women covered largely in soap suds was not a bothersome addition.....
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Furunculus
hold on their chuckles, didn't just say that there was no particular dimunition in the expectation of helping the vulnerable?
what i am talking about is the overbearing chivalry that rendered israeli male soldiers combat inneffective when israeli female soldiers where injured or exposed to mortal threat, a factor that wasn't present when men were in the same situation.
Err...:laugh4:
I thought so. I wasn't speaking of that example. If you, as a man, have no inclination or desire to protect a woman, than you are something less than a man. This could be due to real or perceived physical weakness but is more likely linked to a genetic desire to protect those who bear our young. There is nothing wrong with that desire, but possibly in how it is implemented (re: burkas, chastity belts, etc).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Seamus Fermanagh
But the ones who CAN hack it should get the shot.
Err, no. Don't fall into the trap of thinking the problem women in combat is based solely on physical attributes with strength being the primary.
Edit: Maybe you weren't just talking about physical attributes. I don't think you understand just how the presence even a single woman can affect a bunch of young, dirty, and stressed out men.
Sorry, I don't mean to derail the thread...Lesbians on the other hand, are great in combat situations. :2thumbsup:
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
Bah yer all behind the times have ye ever seen a crowd of hens attacking the police in manchester them jihadi wouldnt stand a chance.
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
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Originally Posted by
gaelic cowboy
Bah yer all behind the times have ye ever seen a crowd of hens attacking the police in manchester them jihadi wouldnt stand a chance.
You're right. The problem occurs when women are in the minority.
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
The main issue with female troops isn't their own ability to serve, it's just that when they are placed with the guys then trouble ensues. Below are a couple of BBC links:
Women at war face sexual violence
"According to several studies of the US military funded by the Department of Veteran Affairs, 30% of military women are raped while serving, 71% are sexually assaulted, and 90% are sexually harassed.
The Department of Defense acknowledges the problem, estimating in its 2009 annual report on sexual assault (issued last month) that some 90% of military sexual assaults are never reported."
Women at war: sexual violence in the US military
That has got to be devastating to the ability of these troops to fight together.
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
This is nothing. As HoreTore implied: 99% of males are sexually assaulted. The difference is that most of us them like it.
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
For some reason, the last few posts reminded me of a scene from the Peep Show which involves a ex-military 'lesbian' and one of the stars, Mark.
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rhyfelwyr
The main issue with female troops isn't their own ability to serve, it's just that when they are placed with the guys then trouble ensues. Below are a couple of BBC links:
Women at war face sexual violence
"According to several studies of the US military funded by the Department of Veteran Affairs, 30% of military women are raped while serving, 71% are sexually assaulted, and 90% are sexually harassed.
The Department of Defense acknowledges the problem, estimating in its 2009 annual report on sexual assault (issued last month) that some 90% of military sexual assaults are never reported."
Women at war: sexual violence in the US military
That has got to be devastating to the ability of these troops to fight together.
So? Are you saying that there's no soldier on soldier violence among the males?
Soldier on soldier rape is far more common than you'd think, and that's among male heterosexual soldiers...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Vladimir
This is nothing. As HoreTore implied: 99% of males are sexually assaulted. The difference is that most of us them like it.
No, my point was that we disguise our need for comfort and closeness as aggressive sexuality.
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HoreTore
No, my point was that we disguise our need for comfort and closeness as aggressive sexuality.
Or, more accurately, it's more fun/funnier when it's illegal.
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Vladimir
Or, more accurately, it's more fun/funnier when it's illegal.
Nah, it's completely legal, that's not it....
But it's impossible for a macho male to admit that he has a need for a calming touch, something we definitely need in the very harsh conditions in boot camp...
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HoreTore
Nah, it's completely legal, that's not it....
But it's impossible for a macho male to admit that he has a need for a calming touch, something we definitely need in the very harsh conditions in boot camp...
Looks like we had different experiences. But then again, my team's job constantly involded the misfortune of others. Maybe we developed a warp sense of humor.
Regardless, gay-themed humor was better than potty humor; and I crack up at even the mention of the word "scatological."
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Vladimir
Looks like we had different experiences. But then again, my team's job constantly involded the misfortune of others. Maybe we developed a warp sense of humor.
My point is that what you think was a joke from your comrade was actually a cry for a parental touch that he could not bring himself to say plainly ~;)
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HoreTore
So? Are you saying that there's no soldier on soldier violence among the males?
Soldier on soldier rape is far more common than you'd think, and that's among male heterosexual soldiers...
30% of female soldiers are raped and all you say is "so"? ~:confused:
And I really doubt 30% of male soldiers have been raped. So this is an example of why female soldiers might not be as ideal.
I'm not saying female soldiers can't do just as good a job, but the above problems have to be taken into consideration.
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rhyfelwyr
30% of female soldiers are raped and all you say is "so"? ~:confused:
And I really doubt 30% of male soldiers have been raped. So this is an example of why female soldiers might not be as ideal.
I'm not saying female soldiers can't do just as good a job, but the above problems have to be taken into consideration.
Because it is the females fault they are raped and not the male rapists, right? So stop the females going in army opposed to dealing with the males.
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beskar
Because it is the females fault they are raped and not the male rapists, right? So stop the females going in army opposed to dealing with the males.
I invoke Fragony's classic leftist reflex here. I thought I had taken care to point out how females do their duty just fine, and is indeed males that are the problem.
This is the army we are talking about, practical considerations must come before idealistic attempts to make the army reflect developments in society. There you have clear evidence that 30% of women have been raped (and that's the official figures, when it's thought that most aren't even reported). So what's going to be done about it?
Do you purge the military of all men who sexually assault women? I really doubt that would even work on a practical level, imagine the reaction a female would get once some of the men were sent home. She would probably not dare act in the first place.
Or do you try to separate men and women? But that would cause all sorts of logistical problems. Or maybe just let things continue as they are, even when things are that bad?
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rhyfelwyr
I invoke Fragony's classic leftist reflex here. I thought I had taken care to point out how females do their duty just fine, and is indeed males that are the problem.
This is the army we are talking about, practical considerations must come before idealistic attempts to make the army reflect developments in society. There you have clear evidence that 30% of women have been raped (and that's the official figures, when it's thought that most aren't even reported). So what's going to be done about it?
Do you purge the military of all men who sexually assault women? I really doubt that would even work on a practical level, imagine the reaction a female would get once some of the men were sent home. She would probably not dare act in the first place.
Or do you try to separate men and women? But that would cause all sorts of logistical problems. Or maybe just let things continue as they are, even when things are that bad?
An there was me thinking the point of having soldiers was for them to take orders?????? If soldiers are raping women either women colleagues or civilians then there is a serious lack of discipline in your units and that has to be tackled and quick. Since a large amount of military work is now more like a souped up police force having eejits raping women is the last thing you want in a milliatary
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rhyfelwyr
30% of female soldiers are raped and all you say is "so"? ~:confused:
I have never been in an army where 30% of the female soldiers are raped and I do not know of one where that happens. Hence the "so?".
The rape figures for women in the Norwegian army is very, very low. I have heard of just a few cases of it happening. And no, Norwegian males are certainly no supermen in any way.
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HoreTore
I have never been in an army where 30% of the female soldiers are raped and I do not know of one where that happens. Hence the "so?".
The rape figures for women in the Norwegian army is very, very low. I have heard of just a few cases of it happening. And no, Norwegian males are certainly no supermen in any way.
Those were official figures from the article, must have been either US/UK military...
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rhyfelwyr
I invoke Fragony's classic leftist reflex here. I thought I had taken care to point out how females do their duty just fine, and is indeed males that are the problem.
This is the army we are talking about, practical considerations must come before idealistic attempts to make the army reflect developments in society. There you have clear evidence that 30% of women have been raped (and that's the official figures, when it's thought that most aren't even reported). So what's going to be done about it?
Do you purge the military of all men who sexually assault women? I really doubt that would even work on a practical level, imagine the reaction a female would get once some of the men were sent home. She would probably not dare act in the first place.
Or do you try to separate men and women? But that would cause all sorts of logistical problems. Or maybe just let things continue as they are, even when things are that bad?
I am reminded of a incident in England, unfortantely, cannot remember the name, but they put a curfew on all women for going outside past 10pm, because of the late night rapists, and they arrested women for going out, saying it is "part of protecting them". Then led to a feminist backlash, arguing that shouldn't the men not be placed under curfew then, as they are the ones doing the raping and not the women.
In short, you are punishing women because of the acitivities of the men. Might not be your intention, but that is what you are advocating.
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beskar
In short, you are punishing women because of the acitivities of the men. Might not be your intention, but that is what you are advocating.
Do you have a better solution?
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rhyfelwyr
Those were official figures from the article, must have been either US/UK military...
Since we've gone all "hetero" now I'll weigh in with an 80% answer: There is no rape in the U.S. military. Classic, military, "rape" only happens when some chick's husband returns from deployment and finds out she's having sex with someone else. Then it magically becomes rape.
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
alh_p
Would that last not also apply to women in the Armed Forces too?
Sure. Let all those who CAN shoot the big guns do it too. No need to keep 1 part of the military in purely defensive mode due merely to the number of x-chromosomes they carry. In my opinion.
Not many female finance clerks can carry a 70-pound rucksack and assault a bunker successfully, any more than the average male supply clerk. But some can. Let 'em, sez I.
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
As if gay soldiers aren't professionals. It's np in the Neds. But what always amazes me is that there's made a point out of it, what's so wrong with don't ask don't tell when the army basically demands from all to become something they arent at the time. Kinda ambigious.
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fragony
As if gay soldiers aren't professionals. It's np in the Neds. But what always amazes me is that there's made a point out of it, what's so wrong with don't ask don't tell when the army basically demands from all to become something they arent at the time. Kinda ambigious.
Because people lose their jobs when someone eventually finds out that they're gay.
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HoreTore
Because people lose their jobs when someone eventually finds out that they're gay.
That's rediculous ofcours but how about some laissez faire, just start ignoring it, they also don't have to wear a sabre in court anymore.
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fragony
That's rediculous ofcours but how about some laissez faire, just start ignoring it, they also don't have to wear a sabre in court anymore.
"Don't tell, don't ask" isn't a policy that promotes, silence, Fragony.... It's a policy that says once someone find out you're gay, you're fired. It basically demands celibacy, because your ability to keep relationships secret is limited. One year without sexual/romantic contact is easy. But 5 years? 10 years? a Lifetime of service? Look at the catholic priests to see how that turns out...
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HoreTore
"Don't tell, don't ask" isn't a policy that promotes, silence, Fragony.... It's a policy that says once someone find out you're gay, you're fired. It basically demands celibacy, because your ability to keep relationships secret is limited. One year without sexual/romantic contact is easy. But 5 years? 10 years? a Lifetime of service? Look at the catholic priests to see how that turns out...
There is absuletely something twisted about but if you think in baby-steps and want any results, just let things be. Making a point of it creates opposition, when nobody should give a crap.
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
Served with a gay guy. This did not cause one problem what so ever, either for me or the platoon at large :)
But then, Sweden is not all Taliban about it...
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
But still,
INCOMMIMG
DOWDOWN
close up the gab, close up the gab
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fragony
But still,
INCOMMIMG
DOWDOWN
close up the gab, close up the gab
I take pride in the fact I can usually decipher your input, but I admit: this time you have me stumped.
Wut?
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Re: How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
KukriKhan
I take pride in the fact I can usually decipher your input, but I admit: this time you have me stumped.
Wut?
sorry my bizar sense of humour, explaining it will make it only worse. Going to bed my about time, apoligies
