Help against Parthia (Pahlava)

I am playing the Seleukid Empire and have major difficulty with Parthia.
My cavalry is no match for them and has lost half it's men when have closed onto the enemy.
My normal infantry gets RAPED by their arrows and is to slow.
My persian archers plain suck due to their limited range
Phalanxes work better but they are sooo slow and dumb, break formation when they are not supposed to and get punched in the rear, sides or even in the front when they turn or don't have their long pikes ready.

I have tried goating the enemy into attacking me and lining up the phalanxes in one corner of the map, but often, the enemy shoots his arrows and just retreats instead of attacking and suffers no losses at all.

I have lost a small town and tried to conquer it back, but even if I position all my phalanxes at let's say 3 of the 4 gateways, they get owned (if they get there in time to prevent the enemy from sallying that is. Most of the time, they don't).

What can I do against this annoying little kingdom?

1. Build stone walls in your cities. Pahlava will have armies of cavalry and light infantry... Have archers and slingers on the walls, and you will be able to win every time, becasue you will either destroy their infantry before they reach your walls, or set on fire their sieging machines. Cheap, but it works.

2. As for pitched battles... Well... avoid them. If you must fight, try to make an army of Horse archers yourself. In theory, if you attack with your HA, they're archers will retreat. You will both fire arrows, but you will hit them in the back while they're retreating, while yours will be hit in the front, which should be better for you. Also, if you don't care about playing historically, make an army with huge numbers of slingers and archers... And let the carnage begin.

3. The fact is, Parthia can field an undefeatable army. I played with them. Create an army of 10 HA, 5 medium HA, 4 Cata's and an elephant too boot, there is not a thing on this earth (EB) that can stop it... Perhaps a tank or sth.

Unfortunately the are attacking a quite undeveloped part of my empire so I am just now building walls.
The worst thing is, when laying siege, they don't always build siege equipment and just starve me out. Sallying is murderous because they can pepper my troops while they assemble outside the city walls. Coming to aid with another army...well field battle and you know how that goes. :(

I cannot recruit horse archers yet and they have like 5 or 6 in an army with their invincible generals.

Get a big line of phalanxes and let them absorb the arrows(even the native phalanxes absorb hundreds of arrows at the lost of one or two men). Then when they close in deploy some guys on the side to protect your flanks and own them. Get Eastern slingers because they are effective against armour and try to get steepe archers or caucasian archers to out shoot their lighter HA's. Also get Persians archer spearmen to garrison your towns, they can shoot the unarmoured cav and use their spears in melee and are also cheep and easily recrutable. Trying to use cav against them is generaly a bad idea because they run away and shoot it to bits or own you with catas.
Just relentlessly push for their towns with phalanxes and you should be able to wipe them out. Good luck.

Also, what difficulty are you playing on? This sounds like you could be playing on hard or very hard battle difficulty in which case the enemy gets huge bonuses to its units. Maybe play on medium battle difficulty so neither you or the opponent gets any bonuses.

Alternatively, play on easy battle difficulty so you get a medium bonus against the AI. I find that for nice relaxing games when I am feeling lazy an Easy battle difficulty makes it more fun.

I am playing VH for the campaing and medium for the battles.
The problem with the phalanxes is, they always find a way to surround me. I always absorb their arrows, but not all units fire, some keep their ammo for later - disaster for me. I thought I could advance with kind of a circle of phalanxes with the spears all pointed outside. But that leaves 4 vulnerable spots at the corners and the units are to stupid to keep this formation while moving, anyway.

Also, how make I sure that they charge me? They keep retreating...so annoying!

Garrison forces

Parthian Spearmen + Persian Archers + Slingers. Very cheap combination, great against cavalry.
Persian Archers are pathetic in melee, but have a higher range and more ammo than Archer-Spearmen. Meaning they are better as static wall defences, especially when deployed on a stone wall as close as possible to enemy forces before the sally. If you use them on a wall, make sure to put them on "guard mode" and turn skirmish mode off (same goes for slingers). Use them to shoot enemy HAs, axemen, and Dahae Skirmishers.
Slingers are good vs heavy cavalry, especially Cataphract HAs. Secondary use is against mercenary phalanxes or other heavy infantry.
Parthian Spearmen make good melee troops if you use them against cavalry or foot archers. From the fron, they are quite resistant to arrows.



Field army

Archer-Spearmen + Parthian Spearmen + phalanx + whatever else is available.

Prodromoi are quite good against light cavalry or as chargers against anything. Use them to pursue and isolate enemy cavalry units. They have a decent resistance to missiles.
Don't use full stacks as the enemy in this case always retreats during mid-battle. Use slingers to decimate the enemy's bodyguards as much as possible. Then try to isolate them by luring them away. Charge with own cavalry.

Hide in woods whenever possible. Axemen and light spearmen types can destroy enemy cavalry in an ambush. Also, archers are less powerful in forests.

athanaric made some very good points there. There is a good selection of eastern troops available to you. You just need to find out where your weakness is and compensate for it. If they are using too many light horse archers and you can't fight them then load up your own army with more archers. If they are heavy on the charging cavalry then step up your spearmen. Also keep your cavalry in reserve and then flank them once they have engaged your line. In a direct fight you will be having a more difficult time as their cavalry is superior in most cases.

Also if you can keep your generals alive then losing large battles is good as it will allow you to get the reforms. I am having trouble getting the reforms on my current Seleukid game since none of the other factions seem powerful enough to trigger them for me, even when I deliberatly lose. The addition of heavy Cata horses could be useful for you.

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Originally Posted by Blxz

The addition of heavy Cata horses could be useful for you.

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Even better for you are the TAB, who are immune to arrows and can defeat any cavalry in melee.

It's also a good idea to keep light axemen (e.g. Tabargân-e Erânshahr) in reserve (to use against cataphracts and infantry), however they need to be wary of arrows - keep them away from the enemy's light HAs and foot archers.

I have never played as the Seleukids (I like to build my own empire) but I have crushed Pahlava and Saka playing as Baktria (not sure same units are recruited but I'm guessing its similar).

Despite what everyone here is saying I found my archers to be almost useless against Pahlava, for one thing the enemies archers have longer range and their entire army has missile capability so you are completely outgunned and with poor defences archers are easily killed.

Next I moved on to the phalanx tactic, no doubt would be effective if you could carefully maneouvre and pin down those pesky horse archers but once they have surrounded/flanked you you are in big trouble with no counter and those Dahae skirmisher cavalry proved particularly devastating

So I stumbled on to the Thorakitai, it was only then that I started to control the battles. With enough armour to easily soak up any arrows (I think if you face the enemy you'll lose a couple of men on a full buckle of HA ammo) enough flexibility to maneuver and charge vulnerable units(and the all important spear throwing ability for fighting those Dahae) and more than enough sticking power in combat to wipe the floor with any cavalry/light infantry foolish enough to enter combat these guys single handedly defeated saka and Pahlavan armies in the thousands (Although as pointed out by others are significantly better in siege assaults - 2 units of thorikitai held off a half stack of Saka Cavalry in my siege defence just by holding the hill)

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Originally Posted by FlyingPig

So I stumbled on to the Thorakitai, it was only then that I started to control the battles. With enough armour to easily soak up any arrows (I think if you face the enemy you'll lose a couple of men on a full buckle of HA ammo) enough flexibility to maneuver and charge vulnerable units(and the all important spear throwing ability for fighting those Dahae) and more than enough sticking power in combat to wipe the floor with any cavalry/light infantry foolish enough to enter combat these guys single handedly defeated saka and Pahlavan armies in the thousands (Although as pointed out by others are significantly better in siege assaults - 2 units of thorikitai held off a half stack of Saka Cavalry in my siege defence just by holding the hill)

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Damn yeah, I somehow forgot them. Thorakitai are the one unit that gave me the most headaches when playing Pahlava or Saka against the AS. Nasty buggers they are.

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Originally Posted by athanaric

Damn yeah, I somehow forgot them. Thorakitai are the one unit that gave me the most headaches when playing Pahlava or Saka against the AS. Nasty buggers they are.

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They just don't rout sometimes... My poor cata's were exhausted all the time charging at them, trying to get them to break :S

Just adding that you have quite an effective heavy cavalry branch yourself. Your Hetairoi bodyguards can smash ANY kind of cavalry the Pahlava can field.except from cataphract-variety units and Parthian bodyguard that is.The Pahlava bodyguard is better than yours but it's also slower.Which means you can chase after them and catch them.Or charge them repeatedly till you kill them off.But keep in mind that your bodyguard is not immune to arrow fire and they will die if they expose their backs to missiles.Also don't rush your hetairoi over long distances.If they get more tired than the Spahbade Pahlavanig they'll lose their speed edge and get powned in melee.DO use FM en masse. Some people might consider it cheating, exploiting etc.However Saka/Parthians/Sauro catas and FMs are absolute tanks so it comes down to applying every possible edge against them.So if it is possible overwhelm them with superior numbers.Band together 2-3 Family members and use them as armour killers.

My personal experience on the subject coming from my Baktrian wars against the Saka is that the best way to counter HA armies is deploying your own HAs and FMs all-cavalry armies.Failing to do that go for the pantodapoi phallangitai /slingers/archers/FMs combo which guys already described.It has limitations but works ok.One other thing is try to be as resourceful and sneaky as you can.Use forests and elevated terrain to full advantage (if you can).

Also i find it remarkable that the AI in your battles saves up arrows.From my experience after 10-15 minutes the AI has spent all ammunition and then it's easy to lure him in melee.So it became simply a question of absorbing the enemy fire for some time and then getting payback (and i do play in VH/M difficulty settings) hmmmm, what exe. do you use ???

It is difficult to get the heavier Seleukid troops to the front lines against Parthia though especially if most of your fighting is taking place around Asaak or Antiochia Margiane. Also remember, he likely needs resources elsewhere to deal with Ptolies, Pontus, Baktria, etc. The Seleucid economy is not that great when you need several armies all across your empire and many of your cities are developing/disorderly/or need large garrisons to defend against attackers.

I recommend lots and lots of Persian Archer Spearmen. Arrows will take down infantry, spears will deal with cavalry.

Keep in mind that it's not the end of the world to lose a few provinces in the beginning as the AS. In fact, you will do better in the long run if you sacrifice a few frontier provinces and consolidate the garrison forces to defend a better chokepoint/more developed city. The first time I played them I screwed up royally because I felt like I had to fight for every city, which just resulted in me bleeding men and still losing the provinces. If you pull out of the most vulnerable cities early and consolidate your defenses further back, you will fare much better and perhaps you will have stone walls at the city by the time the Parthians reach it.

make a charge them form the phalanx once u are close or in contact.

I use the BI.exe with the mod of course.
I already sacrificed Asaak and the 2 rioting provinces in the northeastern corner of the empire. Problem is, the nearest city with stonewalls and decent barracks (Susa) is so far away, I would be giving away half my empire.
The phalanxes are totally useless as an offensive weapon against cavalry. They are slow with spears down and vulnerable with the spears up. It takes too long to lower the pikes - enough time for the enemy to break their formation.

I hate the parthians as enemies. Mainly because most of their infantry take forever to take down and in the same time you get butchered by arrows.
When you play on huge, armies of horse archers can be easily surrounded by 6-8 wide strechted phalangitai and maybe 1 or 2 light cavallery.
But then there is the parthian infantry... :( Anyway in my roman campain I just let them have the eastern part of the map and I defended all the river crossings against them.

PS: I love too overkill the sarmatians with thracian podromoi. There are sooooooooooo fast and have a merciless charge. In the east there are the indogermanic cavallery, but you have to conquer the province east of bactria^^

I think I will just retreat towards Ektabana and Susa, build walls, raise Thorakitai and advanced armies later on and defend the crossings and my larger cities for now. The cities on the mediterranean are more profitable and easier to conquer, anyways. Means giving up 6 or 7 provinces, though. But if I sell all buildings, I can raise so much money to invest in the west and in stone wall defenses elsewhere.

When I had to fight the Pahlava in my old Luso migration campaign I would hide in cities and send armies specifically to hunt family members (the armies I fought contained large numbers of FM). I would send out spies to look for the AI moving unguarded family members around, then move my army (medium cavalry, whatever I could afford) in. Then I would just charge the left side of the FM unit since that has a reasonable chance of actually killing the man himself. You could also use assassins, but the odds never seem to be that good.

I always let Antiocheia-Margiane, Marakanda, and Alexandreia-Eschate go at the start. Also, I obviously let them capture Asaak. At the start, I actually move my garrisons out of all those towns and have them converge Hekatompylos. The first thing you have to do in all of those border cities is build stone walls. Pretty much the most important thing you can do. You don't really need to build very many troops for a long time in a Seleucid game, but when you do, build a whole bunch of archers and native pikemen on your eastern front. Thorikitai are really good too, but they can be difficult to get out that way unless you take Baktra early on. Actually, according to the recruitment viewer, Alexandreia-Ariana can recruit Thorikitai as the Seleucids, so you should build up that town a bunch and maybe blitz Baktria at the start if you want a good base of operations in the east that you can actually conquer the Parthians and Saka from. Otherwise, just loading up on garrison troops in stone walled cities works just fine too.

Or if you're too cheap to buy a decent barracks, like me, just bring more men than they have arrows. This can be hard on huge unit size settings, because of the depopulation. But while a-historical, it works in single-player to just bring hordes of pantodapoi (NOT the phalangites, the native spearmen) to absorb waves of arrows/charges (keep them well ahead of other troops if you have Alexander where the AI prioritizes archery targets). Follow up with the cheapest non-pantodapoi spearmen and AP infantry you can find. As long as you outnumber the enemy by two or three times their number of troops and are careful to avoid a mass rout, you should be able to take one of their settlements with a human wave attack. Don't be afraid to bring multiple stacks and put one or more under AI command to increase the number of levies on the battlefield.

Sure, they'll spawn some more bodyguards in their next town and decimate your army even when you win, but hey, you have a new settlement to drain for pantodapoi, you hire a few mercs for your back line, and on to the new settlement. Actually, its really good to use mercs as much as possible, since they can form the best units in your army, and the enemy doesn't send huge merc stacks back at you. The fun part of this strategy is that occasionally you get greedy and suffer devastating losses and it keeps your provinces small and poor, prolonging the game and challenge. And you can roleplay your generals as merciless bastards who never personally engage in combat, which is really the only historically accurate part of the whole strategy for AS (at least the merciless bastards part, dunno about not personally engaging in combat).

This strategy is even more fun once you take Babylon/Seleucia as Hai when going for the Orontid reforms. But its harder to beat AS/Ptoly stacks with this sort of army :).

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Originally Posted by seienchin

In the east there are the indogermanic cavallery, but you have to conquer the province east of bactria^^

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Wow, I didn't even know we had such a unit... Though it without doubt must be silly looking.

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Originally Posted by athanaric

Garrison forces

Archer-Spearmen + Parthian Spearmen + phalanx + whatever else is available.

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lol! we call it : striking precision! hahahahaha

If you don't mind taking advantage of the AI , just try to position your armies in forests , bridges or very high ground. That should give you enough advantage to massacre them.
Also try to get some cheap mercs , such as the scythian ones or the archer/spearmen. They are very good in these kinds of situations.

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Originally Posted by MisterFred

Or if you're too cheap to buy a decent barracks, like me, just bring more men than they have arrows. This can be hard on huge unit size settings, because of the depopulation. But while a-historical, it works in single-player to just bring hordes of pantodapoi (NOT the phalangites, the native spearmen) to absorb waves of arrows/charges (keep them well ahead of other troops if you have Alexander where the AI prioritizes archery targets). Follow up with the cheapest non-pantodapoi spearmen and AP infantry you can find. As long as you outnumber the enemy by two or three times their number of troops and are careful to avoid a mass rout, you should be able to take one of their settlements with a human wave attack. Don't be afraid to bring multiple stacks and put one or more under AI command to increase the number of levies on the battlefield.

Sure, they'll spawn some more bodyguards in their next town and decimate your army even when you win, but hey, you have a new settlement to drain for pantodapoi, you hire a few mercs for your back line, and on to the new settlement. Actually, its really good to use mercs as much as possible, since they can form the best units in your army, and the enemy doesn't send huge merc stacks back at you. The fun part of this strategy is that occasionally you get greedy and suffer devastating losses and it keeps your provinces small and poor, prolonging the game and challenge. And you can roleplay your generals as merciless bastards who never personally engage in combat, which is really the only historically accurate part of the whole strategy for AS (at least the merciless bastards part, dunno about not personally engaging in combat).

This strategy is even more fun once you take Babylon/Seleucia as Hai when going for the Orontid reforms. But its harder to beat AS/Ptoly stacks with this sort of army :).

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Sweet Jeesus that's by far the most spectacular and ruthless Zerg strategy i've ever read in these forums. Here's a balloon for roleplaying Seleuceia as Soviet Union.And i really like the Hetairoi-Comissars too! :balloon2:

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Originally Posted by ARCHIPPOS

Sweet Jeesus that's by far the most spectacular and ruthless Zerg strategy i've ever read in these forums. Here's a balloon for roleplaying Seleuceia as Soviet Union.And i really like the Hetairoi-Comissars too! :balloon2:

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hahaha... epic post

Actually MisterFred is epic.I'm just pointing it out :)

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Originally Posted by ARCHIPPOS

And i really like the Hetairoi-Comissars too!

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Unfortunately the engine doesn't allow executing your own men on the battlefield. That's a feature I've really come to miss with TW games...

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Originally Posted by athanaric

Unfortunately the engine doesn't allow executing your own men on the battlefield. That's a feature I've really come to miss with TW games...

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You could line them up, place some missile troops next to/amongst them and get them to fire. You should kill at least some of them that way.

Or you could get them to stand up against a wall and fire siege weapons at it. When it crumbles, that should take a few out. Or put them in a siege tower and do the same. Usually around 80% casualties, depending on how full up it is at the time.

I have given up several provinces and reinforced my border with stone walls. I use the sally-quickload bug (you can sally as often as you like) and decimate the enemy siege army when it is vastly larger than the garrison force. Their horses don't stand a chance when subjected to oil and arrows and stones from above and facing a wall of spears to keep them at bay.
Any day now I will start conquering back my provinces and kill them all! :D

First, declare war on the Parthians in the 1st turn. Abandon Assak, Hyrcania, Margiane and the 2 NE provinces. Build up Alexandria-Ariana and Hekatamopylos. Then recruit an army of pezhetaroi and thorakitoi and recover the lost towns.

Slingers on walls solve all sorts of problems.