Creative Assembly....missing a trick?

Trying to understand the workings of the Eleutheroi faction it becomes apparent that much of this stuff is hidden/hard-coded deep within the exe. I'm aware that CA won't share that coding/allow it to be tampered with. Now, to me this sort of misunderstands their market. Now, can understand that they don't want key-gens etc to be produced (allowing people to pirate the games), but surely there are aspects of the coding that they could release to modders. The TW series is bedecked with mods/sub-mods etc. and the distribution of (limited) code could be beneficial to both parties.

By combining their efforts with modding teams CA could probably extend their sales, and also utilise what they learn from the modders (as in, what they wish to mod, and why) to direct the development of their new releases incorporating what the playing community seeks (and thus having a greater understanding of what their audience is after in a game.)

Take EB as an example. How many here are putting off purchasing M2:TW until EB2 is out? I know I am..., having far too much fun playing EB1 :2thumbsup:

So..., let's say that CA were to work with the EB team, offer them a level of assistance on the deeper coding of, say, Empires: Total War - facilitating the development of the mod onto the latest level/release... wouldn't that enhance sales of E:TW? Or am I just a cheapskate and everybody's buying these anyway :laugh4:?

The costs of them combining work with a modding team would probably outweigh the profit they would make. So yeah.

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Originally Posted by Hax

The costs of them combining work with a modding team would probably outweigh the profit they would make. So yeah.

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I see what you're saying, but it depends upon what is meant by combining efforts..... my bad-wording, really, I meant simply co-operating, in terms of releasing certain aspects of coding etc.

... it would take someone within the company that has A LOT of "pull", to get something like that released ....corporations only exist to make money

but u never know =)

Remember that it is not solely CA's decision to make. Sega has a big (final) say in what they do or do not do, since they own them.

My guess is that if there was money to be made in this, someone would already have done it.

BTW, is it even possible to release the partial code of a game? I only know the beginnings of C++ coding, but my understanding is that to compile an .exe file you need to have the entire source code.

All perfectly good answers... I suppose this just has to be put down to frustration at some of the limits and hidden coding of R:TW

The problem here is Sega being completely inept.

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Originally Posted by Claudius

The problem here is Sega being completely inept.

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I don't think inept is the right word, I think :daisy: would be more accurate.

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Originally Posted by Gaius Sempronius Gracchus

Trying to understand the workings of the Eleutheroi faction it becomes apparent that much of this stuff is hidden/hard-coded deep within the exe. I'm aware that CA won't share that coding/allow it to be tampered with. Now, to me this sort of misunderstands their market. Now, can understand that they don't want key-gens etc to be produced (allowing people to pirate the games), but surely there are aspects of the coding that they could release to modders. The TW series is bedecked with mods/sub-mods etc. and the distribution of (limited) code could be beneficial to both parties.

By combining their efforts with modding teams CA could probably extend their sales, and also utilise what they learn from the modders (as in, what they wish to mod, and why) to direct the development of their new releases incorporating what the playing community seeks (and thus having a greater understanding of what their audience is after in a game.)

Take EB as an example. How many here are putting off purchasing M2:TW until EB2 is out? I know I am..., having far too much fun playing EB1 :2thumbsup:

So..., let's say that CA were to work with the EB team, offer them a level of assistance on the deeper coding of, say, Empires: Total War - facilitating the development of the mod onto the latest level/release... wouldn't that enhance sales of E:TW? Or am I just a cheapskate and everybody's buying these anyway :laugh4:?

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Did you really think this post belonged here? You should have emailed this to CA herself.

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Originally Posted by Ludens

My guess is that if there was money to be made in this, someone would already have done it.

BTW, is it even possible to release the partial code of a game? I only know the beginnings of C++ coding, but my understanding is that to compile an .exe file you need to have the entire source code.

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It's done via DLLs, and most applications and games do this.

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Originally Posted by Chris_

It's done via DLLs, and most applications and games do this.

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CA won't release modular coding accessibility. Count on it.

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Originally Posted by Iain.

I don't think inept is the right word, I think :daisy: would be more accurate.

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Touche :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by vartan

CA won't release modular coding accessibility. Count on it.

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I know. I was just answering Ludens' question.

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Originally Posted by Chris_

It's done via DLLs, and most applications and games do this.

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I see, thanks.

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Originally Posted by Iain.

I don't think inept is the right word, I think :daisy: would be more accurate.

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While I don't particularly like SEGA, this is unfair. We paid for a game, not a fully-functional development platform.

I should say I wasn't trying to knock Sega or CA, what they do with their work is up to them. I was simply wondering whether there might be some benefit to them in releasing some aspect of the coding. For all the reasons given, probably not. Hey ho...

I dunno, Valve and CryTeam did it(I Hate Mountains and Mech Warrior Living Legends(GET IT)) and are apparently doing quite fine.

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Originally Posted by Ludens

My guess is that if there was money to be made in this, someone would already have done it.

BTW, is it even possible to release the partial code of a game? I only know the beginnings of C++ coding, but my understanding is that to compile an .exe file you need to have the entire source code.

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that's the thing: it is, to an extant, good for business: it was good for id, why not be good for CA or SEGA? its good publicity: it implies that the company actually gives a **** about the consumer. people like to buy from companies that, in their mind, treat them right. as the old saying goes: "the customer is always right".

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Originally Posted by Ibrahim

that's the thing: it is, to an extant, good for business: it was good for id, why not be good for CA or SEGA? its good publicity: it implies that the company actually gives a **** about the consumer. people like to buy from companies that, in their mind, treat them right. as the old saying goes: "the customer is always right".

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I think you're right. CA could also advertise the modability of their games on the box, as if it was some sort of feature. I'm sure if they did people who don't already know about modding would think it was really cool and want to buy the game more. I know I would.

Firaxis sells way more copies of Civ than all the total war games combined. How dare Sid Meier destroy his brand by supporting the game's modding community!

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Originally Posted by Lignator

I think you're right. CA could also advertise the modability of their games on the box, as if it was some sort of feature. I'm sure if they did people who don't already know about modding would think it was really cool and want to buy the game more. I know I would.

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The Moddability paradigm is yet to become mainstream. The Shift hasn't really occurred yet AFAIK...IN PROGRESS.

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Originally Posted by Ibrahim

that's the thing: it is, to an extant, good for business: it was good for id, why not be good for CA or SEGA? its good publicity: it implies that the company actually gives a **** about the consumer. people like to buy from companies that, in their mind, treat them right. as the old saying goes: "the customer is always right".

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ID produces first-person shooters, don't they? They have a lot of competition, but there is very little that compares to TW.

I quite agree with your other argument, but again: we paid fifty or sixty bucks for a game. SEGA does not owe us more (although it would be nice if they did).

Edit: I just moved Claudius' post here, and he makes a good point. That said, I don't think TW is as well-designed as Civilization. Implementing more moddability into the TW engine is going to be far more difficult.

Implementing moddability also increases the game's lifespan. I guess Sega/CA isn't into that kind of thing anymore since they can just pump out mediocre DLC every other month and charge full game price for a borderline expansion pack.

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Originally Posted by Ludens

ID produces first-person shooters, don't they? They have a lot of competition, but there is very little that compares to TW.

I quite agree with your other argument, but again: we paid fifty or sixty bucks for a game. SEGA does not owe us more (although it would be nice if they did).

Edit: I just moved Claudius' post here, and he makes a good point. That said, I don't think TW is as well-designed as Civilization. Implementing more moddability into the TW engine is going to be far more difficult.

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its first person, and it faces heavy competition; but here's the thing: the total war series also faces competition from other strategy game makers (e.g Civ series, Ensemble studios, the makers of Cossaks, etc). CA isn't even #1; as one other person said, Firaxis, the makers of the Civ series, is. and it always makes every move to help its customers in that direction. one fellow even made a freeware version called civ-evo or C-evo, and he got away with it. it helps that people prefer Firaxis' original over the source code-based version; in the same vein, the people who make guns n' ammo don't get as many downloads as the original Quake III gets sold.

and its not about what CA owes us; its simply what is good for business; people really do like companies that at least put on a show of giving a darn.

the only real excuse/reason not to is if it were illegal/difficult in SEGA's country (iirc, Japan), to release source codes; and even then, you can at least sell contracts or similar in regards to source codes (as EU's case IIRC), for the purposes of improving or redoing games-this was the original goal of the petition for MTW's source code, as the game's age causes glitches when playing it on modern computers..

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Originally Posted by Ibrahim

this was the original goal of the petition for MTW's source code, as the game's age causes glitches when playing it on modern computers..

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As a developer I find it unjust for clients to demand source code simply to adjust and compile in order to make the game work optimally on modern computers. Just get a virtual machine and be done with it. Times are moving quickly and I ain't taking a Windows 2000 software and re-producing it for Win 7 x64...

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Originally Posted by vartan

As a developer I find it unjust for clients to demand source code simply to adjust and compile in order to make the game work optimally on modern computers. Just get a virtual machine and be done with it. Times are moving quickly and I ain't taking a Windows 2000 software and re-producing it for Win 7 x64...

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well, that's what I do, but others want to redo this engine for real (I didn't know about the thread till long afterward, so I had little to do with that particular request). you'd have to see the main hall for that; there is a petition thread there.

IIRC, there is a problem with either the cursors, the graphics, or both.

EDIT: you are a developer? of what?

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Originally Posted by Ibrahim

well, that's what I do, but others want this for real (I didn't know about the thread till long afterward, so I had little to do with that particular request). you'd have to see the main hall for that; there is a petition thread there.

EDIT: you are a developer? of what?

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I remember a really long petition to CA, I believe on the TWC, asking for modding tools and an overall more open, collaborative atmosphere with the userbase. I signed onto that if that's the one you're referring to (I haven't bookmarked it so I can't be certain of a match). CA itself is a game developer, I myself am not a game developer in the commercial sense (indie would be more appropriate). But as a developer, myself being a developer outside the video game industry (developers can produce games, texts, etc.; there are many output mediums), there always comes a time when it just clicks :idea2: and you realize that the only way you'll get that extra 10 percent if is you work with the people you're outputting to. After all, they are your main feedback stream.

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Originally Posted by vartan

I remember a really long petition to CA, I believe on the TWC, asking for modding tools and an overall more open, collaborative atmosphere with the userbase. I signed onto that if that's the one you're referring to (I haven't bookmarked it so I can't be certain of a match). CA itself is a game developer, I myself am not a game developer in the commercial sense (indie would be more appropriate). But as a developer, myself being a developer outside the video game industry (developers can produce games, texts, etc.; there are many output mediums), there always comes a time when it just clicks :idea2: and you realize that the only way you'll get that extra 10 percent if is you work with the people you're outputting to. After all, they are your main feedback stream.

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the thread is this: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...TW-source-code . it is indeed specifically about sourcecodes.the other thread I did see, and also approve of.

but yeah, you're an indie? if so, I have some questions about development that I hope you can help with. PM?

yeah, it looks like if SEGA want to let CA relase the RTW source code, they will insist every factions should had an acess to ultra heroic warriors of them, Sonic the Hedgehog!!!!

Now seriously : SEGA indeed made more profit from their console works and action games, strategy games is enjoyable by lesser part of the segments, and modding are only a few in comparison with the bulk market. Of course, the Downloadable content for Napoleon prove that...

I don't think that CA or Sega will release the source code anytime soon, here's why:

Reason 1: It will cost them money (time is money) and will give them no direct profits

Reason 2: Cracks, keygens etc will be much easier to make, and especially SEGA will not be pleased by this.

Reason 3: It will give valuable information to the rivals, and could possibly spark a series of commercially developed clones which will be sold based on the information they 'stole' from CA's engine and coding style.

Reason 4: There is no broad demand from their mainstream customers, except for some 'geeks' and 'nerds' there is no need for it, the mainstream just enjoyed it for a couple of days, liked the Roman ninjas and bought a new game which then pleased them for a few days before moving on to the next

Reason 5: The developers don't want people to play and buy R:TW (since they don't really make a profit with the €5 it costs nowadays) and want people to move on to newer games, like Empire: Total War, I believe someone from Activision said something comparable recently, I know Activision is not Sega, but it shows us what these companies think of their consumers.

Reason 6: Downloadable content where you have to pay for is the new trend in the gaming industry, releasing the source code and let people make what they want could potentially show their customers that downloadable content is absolutely rubbish since you can make it yourself, or even better, download a mod which has way more content than your downloadable content, and is absolutely free! This is something the devs don't want either.

I know a few examples of developers who released their source code, like id Software did with Doom, but unlike id, CA and SEGA don't really have the reputation about actually caring about the wishes of their customers, the best example I know is what they did to the EB teams requests for barbarian factions before R:TW was released. So, even if they'll release it (which I don't expect will ever happen) it will not be this year, or the next, but when it is outdated for years and years.

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Originally Posted by Gaius Sempronius Gracchus

Take EB as an example. How many here are putting off purchasing M2:TW until EB2 is out? I know I am...?

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I agree, never liked too much M2TW but I'm definitely buying it when EB2 comes out

Anyone played the wonderful tactical role-playing game Jagged Alliance 2?
When its developer, Sir-Tech if I remember correct, went bankrupt, they did a last generous contribution to its community -- they published all the source code of this game. Henceforth there are several opensource projects worked on them by community members all these years. I have played one of them which is called JA2 1.13, it's really great because the modders, oh they should not be called mere modders now, rather all-powerful developers since they have access to all source code, they can change the very framework, the engine, the AI of the game, and everything else as they wish. I always dream the same would be true for RTW someday, no more "hardcoded"...
Well, since it is clear that CA's games will undoubtedly be less and less mod-friendly, I won't give any of them even a try any way, it might as well just go bankrupt right now and leave us the code.:laugh4:

It was Sir Tech and JA2 is still installed on my comp.

For the developer types out there: It seems (from my hardware / project management background) that making your game engine moddable would be the correct way to implement a design especially if you intend to make more of the same type. Short of the usual (project ran in paths other than anticipated, people quit, life happens), why wouldn't you structure your programs in a way that would be easier to make changes which in many ways is would facilitate modding?

For the lawyer types out there: How much does it weaken the value of your Intellectual Property rights if you make a game very mod friendly (but not release source code?) If CA, for example, wanted to sell off it's Total War division, I'm assuming that if the community could already mod the game(s) in whatever manner they wished, they would make much less money from the sale.

Mostly, businesses are in business to make money. Even Valve - which recently released a full playable multiplayer game (Alien Swarm) for free did so (to my cynical mindset) as a good marketing plan to get people onto Steam (which it requires.) Win / Win for everyone and especially the bottom line.

Did someone ask CA for the source code once? And what was their response?

Well, as Skullheadhq stated, I'm pretty sure that no one even asked and most people here only presume they would "most probably say no"...

Cracks and keygens are already all over the place, there's probably like 10,000 of them just for Barbarian Invasion.

CA will never do this, and will probably continue to make their games more and more mod unfriendly. I swear, it seems to get worse with every game.

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Originally Posted by Olaf The Great

Cracks and keygens are already all over the place, there's probably like 10,000 of them just for Barbarian Invasion.

CA will never do this, and will probably continue to make there games more and more mod unfriendly. I swear, it seems to get worse with every game.

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Not agree... Look at Shogun : total war. very few mod have been made when compared to rome...

Everytime someone will bring up the subject, everyone says: "Nah, CA will never do it". With this attitude we'll never get it, lets just ASK CA, what could go wrong except that we don't get it, there is nothing to lose!

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Originally Posted by Skullheadhq

Did someone ask CA for the source code once? And what was their response?

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For M:TW, yes. I don't think the petition got enough votes to impress the SEGA execs, anyway.

So, anyone interested in compiling a letter to CA with me?

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Originally Posted by Skullheadhq

So, anyone interested in compiling a letter to CA with me?

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I am no modder at all, but for the sake of those who can mod, I'm with you!

Ok, that's 2. What should we include in our request?

Well, the request would most probably to release the hard-code of the game, and we could convince them of the adventage it would have for both parties (them and us) them by selling probably more games due top the possibility to mod them better (example, many people want to buy M2TW just for the sake of EB2) and for us it gives us many more modding possibilities. So it is a win - win situation. the letter shouldn't be sent only to CA but to SEGA as well as they own a big part of CA. Of corse, that is not enough, if we could receive more help from interested players on what to write, ideas, all are welcome.

Guys, it's for all of you that Skullheadhq and me are willing to do this, so it's be nice to receive support, ideas, tips or suggestion on what could be wrote on that letter...

Oh yeah, I support that too, it would be nice if we ask them to open all the hard codings in RTW (which now allready very old), or better, relase their source code for free....

I support this. I'll try and come up with some more ideas on this latter.

We need arguments and lots of them. Not only how we could profit but also how CA could profit and we should give arguments to minimise CA's risks.
Should we start a new thread?

we could always argue that great games such as half life, making a big deal on online comptititve multiplayer game by letting Counter Strike. Perhaps we could do the same if CA let RTW become open...

I'm in full support of anything that stands for modding. Count me in.

Please continue discussions about the letter here: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...he-source-code

What happened to the realists on these forums? (Just playing for those who threw their SOH in the bin.) Good luck pals.

SOH?

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Originally Posted by Duguntz

SOH?

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My bad. Sense Of Humour.

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Originally Posted by vartan

What happened to the realists on these forums? (Just playing for those who threw their SOH in the bin.) Good luck pals.

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dey'z in ur bankz, inflating ur kurensee :clown:

welcome back I guess; any news?

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Originally Posted by vartan

What happened to the realists on these forums? (Just playing for those who threw their SOH in the bin.) Good luck pals.

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Hehe, ok in regards to the letter:

Have fun storming the castle!

Does that help? :)

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Originally Posted by Ibrahim

dey'z in ur bankz, inflating ur kurensee :clown:

welcome back I guess; any news?

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Yeah. Nothing one wouldn't expect. Net access is prolific in London (mind you, I haven't been there in over 5 years and never plan on going back, last place I want to go to). Access sure ain't as prolific up north and I don't even think landline is in the dictionary up here (at least they don't pay for incoming calls on the mobile). Well the only news us two would share would be regarding the project we can't properly discuss openly. I'll get you in PM sooner or later and we'll kick this into gear as soon as humanly possible.

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Originally Posted by vartan

Yeah. Nothing one wouldn't expect. Net access is prolific in London (mind you, I haven't been there in over 5 years and never plan on going back, last place I want to go to). Access sure ain't as prolific up north and I don't even think landline is in the dictionary up here (at least they don't pay for incoming calls on the mobile). Well the only news us two would share would be regarding the project we can't properly discuss openly. I'll get you in PM sooner or later and we'll kick this into gear as soon as humanly possible.

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ah, I see.

well, I'll get this kicked off actually: you'll like the news I bring.