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Ok this will become the usual bunfight, but it's an important story as there is often a perception that the Palestinians only use terror tactics and there is no civil disobedience.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11521237
Of course the way to discredit this man's movement is to suggest that it is a front for terror, or some such. A suggestion that will find fertile ground in the minds of many on here no doubt.
As both the Palestinians and Israelis have (re)discovered, too much brutality makes you brutal. As my favorite syphilitic German put it, "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster." Also the central premise of the underrated comedy Starship Troopers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faFuaYA-daw
I really don't trust any news from there. Can summarise why in a single image
https://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v...ryingwoman.jpg
edit: holy crap, someone gets that Starship Troopers is pure camp and intentionally awful. Great movie. As is Showgirls.
You don't trust THE BBC. Ok Frags. Lay off the crazy juice for a while. :kiss:
Its always difficult when someone commits an illegal act against something that is immoral.
~:smoking:
Absolutely don't trust the criminaly biased BBC noQuote:
Originally Posted by Psychonaut
No, let's rather go with the fairly unbalanced Fox News. I mean fair and balanced, of course.
I don't trust any news-source, blogs do just fine. Faster acces to news, and forced to rectify just as well should they cook something up. The sting is in MSM omnisions, I want the whole story, BBC gimme a break, MSM doesn't report the news they make itQuote:
Originally Posted by Hax
until the beeb release that secret report looking into BBC bias over the israel/palestine issue I don't trust them either!Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychonaut
But do you trust that a man who organises peaceful protest is imprisoned? And that these peaceful protests are often fired upon by soldiers?Quote:
Originally Posted by Furunculus
I don't, if he would be peaceful and of any influence he would be shot by his own. Pallywood.Quote:
Originally Posted by Idaho
Ok - the fantasists have all had a play. You can run along and let the grown-ups talk now :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
On the one hand Israelis are no angels, on the other hand people often claim it was a peaceful protest when they were actually throwing stones. I wasn't there so I don't know, it's so far away that I don't mind all that much anymore if they keep killing eachother. I just wish all the other countries on both sides would stop their support as well, until the two sides start working on an actual non-violent solution.
People are abducted and killed each day you fool, whatever you want it to be, it isn't that. Forgot about the PLO members being executed, often in the hospitals they were in. Do you even know people from there it's hell, and it aren't the Israeli's making it so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Idaho
Throwing stones... that it? The French have been up to their usual antics with petrol bombs and the like, yet they've not been shot at with live rounds.
If riot police can not deal with stones, there's something wrong.
~:smoking:
You can tell Israel is a democracy. They don't manage to pursue ANY strategy to its necessary end-state. They continue the usual mish-mash of policies and tactics which, unsurprisingly, beget more of the same.
Viewing how Palestinian land ownership has altered over the last 40 years shows that the mish-mash is still very effective.
~:smoking:
Quite. A Palestinian property on land that settlers want will suddenly be found to have been built 'without the correct permits' and bulldozed, the family turfed out onto the street. Meanwhile settlers build entire towns on land that was once palestinian, shutting down roads in the process, and intimidating/beating up locals.Quote:
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
Apparently, Palestine isn't even a official state with UN membership.
Just let Israel annex Palestine and get over with it. In a few decades, everything would have settled down.
Israel is not a full member either, and what do you want us to do, look the other way while Israel is committing atrocities?Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
us?Quote:
Originally Posted by Skullheadhq
Anyway the borders are temporally UN-technically
Two state solution would never work. It is literally having two nations on the same piece of land. Actually, that is even incorrect in itself, it is Three nations on the same piece of land. Israel, Palestine and Hamas' Gaza.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skullheadhq
The best solution would to federate the nations into one nation, in specific, Israel.
The current climate is not helping anyone, and all it does is radicalize the area even more significantly the longer it takes. There are many examples within Israel where Arabs, Jews, Christians, (insert here), all get along peacefully. The Palestinian people themselves will actually end up benefiting also, as they are now under 'Israel', Israel has no reason to do its the vast majority of its aggressive actions. Also, under a Federate system, Israel doesn't have to worry about influx of citizens, and it could craft the Palestinian and Gaza states which would work in a framework of a greater Israel.
There would be some instability due to terrorism and other things, but over time, there would be peace in the area. There would also be no "blockades", no where near the amount of check points, Israeli's wouldn't have to worry about Rockets flying into them, Palestinians wouldn't have to also worry about Rockets firing into them.
The more we put up this joke of a 'two-state solution', the more atrocities and problems that will occur.
Surely that has a lot of potential for major problems too? The current militants would continue in the form of separatist movements, abstract ideas like redrawing the lines on a map are meaningless unless there is real change for the ordinary person on the ground.
The only way that could be achieved is for a heck of a lot of resources to be transferred from the wealthier Jewish areas to the Palestinian ones, in order to actually given them some infrastructure and jobs so that the people have some incentive to do something rather than become radical Islamists and fight for a living.
But then that would upset the Jewish population at having to fund these people that in their minds have been killing them all these years. Look at Spain where the Basques and Catalans and people from wealthier industrialised areas want to secede because their taxes are funding poorer regions like Andalusia... it would be that situation x100 in Israel.
Plus there is absolutely no common indentity to build upon for the Israeli/Palestinian people. In the UK Scots and English can say they are British, for Spain being Spanish has some value as an umbrella identity, but how could that be forged in Israel?
because that's working really well for belgium....!Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
Kinda does, can mock their inability to form a stable government but the belgians seem to do better without these idiots. Of course it helps that the Walloons have no holy mission to kill the Flemmish wherever they find them but still.Quote:
Originally Posted by Furunculus
edit, good read http://hetvrijevolk.com/index.php?pagina=12270
Kinda mirrors the reflections of a friend of mine, he isn't from ghaza himself but has relatives there. Hamas is corrupt to the bone at best, and absolutely vicious the rest of the time. Arabs don't need the jews to make their life's miserable.
Yes, I am wrong, because Spain and Belguim are obviously war zones with many deaths and casualties each day, with French-speaking Belguim in a virtual ghetto and home to the French flotilla incident, where French navy was trying to pass the Flemish blockage 'peacefully'. The issues in Belgium and Spain is pretty much people tuttering rather loudly with them and modern day Ireland being a very significant improvement for both the Israelis and the Palestinians.
The rather 'abstract lines on a map' is the very issue. Because without those lines, Israeli security forces can just stamp out the terrorism in their own backyard, without having to leave them roam free, because their backyard is technically owned by some one else.
That is more to do with the fact that Belgium in in the heart of the developed world. Adding the political instability that comes with a system like Belgium's would certainly translate into conflict in the Middle-East.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
^ wot he said ^
I don't understand this at all from a demographic or strategic point of view Israel does not have the numbers to sustain all these settlements
Some of the settlers are so religious they wont serve in the army they expect to protect them on the very same settlements.
Considering that all multinational states are encountering harsher and harsher difficulties as time goes, I don't see how that would work in the middle-east.
Most provinces in Spain are being bitch to eachothers. You even have regional racism on the rise. Same in Belgium, where some people realistically think they country won't last much longer. Somehow, you want to take this model, that's not working in western Europe, for some of the most democratic and wealthy countries, a impose it onto backwater, hatred-filled Palestine/Israel? Good luck with that.
I agree with Meneldil. I don't think a single state solution would work. A confederacy-ish state might work for some time, but unless the military arm of Hamas ceases the rocket attacks or is removed entirely and willing to talk with Israel, things like that aren't going to work at all.
Hamas will simply be replaced when they do, that is supposedly already happening if my sources are good.
I don't think Israel will make the same mistake again and encourage a break in Gaza the last time they ended up with Hamas after. The hardline sunni guys who tried to set up last year I think got a bit of a beating from Hamas from the get go.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Probably, yes. It happened with the PLO and Fatah as well. The people not interested in peace will always find a new terrorist group to support. The important question is how this vicious circle is stopped.Quote:
Hamas will simply be replaced when they do, that is supposedly already happening if my sources are good.
Not pushing the green wave, biggest opportunity wasted ever. A media barrage of naming and shaming is a powerful tool. We let the modernisation of islam slip right through our fingers. The (political)Islam IS the cause of the conflict, we got to take away it's legitimacy as a political alternative.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hax
Oh yes, certainly. Although we could've talked with then-president Khatami, but for some reason, we didn't. I don't know why.Quote:
Not pushing the green wave, biggest opportunity wasted ever.
Part of Obama's appeasement blunder to take a soft stance against the Iranian goverment, a misjudgement they only got more confident. Europe is naturally as useless as ever. The inevitable next wave won't be the potential allies against the Islamists they could have been, now the west is all talk. Khatami is also trash by the way, an opportunist we would simply need.
Hard stances only give the Iranian President more "it's all the American Infidels' fault! Blame them!" as of course the economy is a mess, and yes, security is tight due to these external threats. Without sanctions, those in the country would then question why there isn't a utopia and in the medium term more good would come out of it.
I don't understand the obsession with nukes. Syria has a very large number of rockets with Chemical / Biological tips with a very low rocket to launcher ratio which is what you need for one massive strike. This would turn the greater part of Israel into a plague-ravaged morgue... yet this isn't apparently a massive issue. One or two nukes that would in fact do far less damage is though.
~:smoking:
Because western governments have always preferred isolated, unsupported middle east regimes to strong independent ones.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hax
Perhaps their 'interest' in peace would seem more possible, plausable and even desireable when they aren't barracaded in an open prison with frequent air raids, assassination of leaders + the killing of whoever was nearby, settler intimidation, random pot shots from Israeli soldiers, bulldozed houses, refusal of citizenship, confiscation of lands, imprisonment without trial, detention with torture, seperation of families, destruction of businesses and livelyhoods, etc, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hax
What you are calling an 'interest in peace' would be seen as an acceptance of this status quo. In fact there are peacefully motivated groups protesting all of the above, but their leaders get imprisoned.
Israel is complaining that Hamas has some AA missiles, preventing Israelis unrestricted access to the airspace! How dare they? Surely they realise their role is to be forgotten and slowly die on the vine? Next they'll be saying that they should have sovereignty over their own airspace, land, water supply, territorial waters... where will it end?
~:smoking:
Gimme a break, Gaza has more atraction-parks malls and swimming-pools than any European nation, fattest people of the world after oilstate Qatar. No surprise with the billions of aid they get.
Frag, you do speak some cobblers sometimes.Here is a study that shows significant levels of stunted children indicating chronic malnutrition (although I accept there are also levels of obesity - below levels seen in Europe / USA).
Billions of aid? I'm not seeing that figure anywhere. Oh, except the $2bn that America gives Israel annually.
~:smoking:
Well a lot would go here I guess https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvOAufwwnAo
Oh my god! The opulence! A new 'mall' of ten shops opens in a city of over a million. The size of that place! It's almost as big as a mall that you would find in a small provincial US town. That shows that everything is a-OK and those Palestinians should just stop whinging :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Wish we had malls with so much luxory goods, posted wrong video but it's not hard to find. Yeah the worlds second fattest people really should. Gaza is a fully stocked paradise compared to it's neighours, courtesy of the west throwing with billions of dollars.Quote:
Originally Posted by Idaho
http://www.google.nl/images?hl=nl&so...n+zoeken&gbv=2
try googling gaza market, no wonder they are so fat. Must be a zionist conspiracy to make get stuck in the tunnels
I know I shouldn't bother, as you are getting increasingly barking, but I can't resist.
So let me get this straight:
Wealth and some new commercial buildings in Gaza = blockade is meaningless and everyone is just dandy
There are some fat people in Gaza = All people in Gaza are well fed
Ok - if the blockade doesn't matter - how come the Israelis got so het up that they shot a load of sailors?
Some choice quotes from one of these:
A mall bigger than in Wilson! A city of 50,000 people! My god! The Palestinian Authority is getting rich with the aim of shooting nukes at Israel? Keeping some suitably barking company here.Quote:
Wilson Voice:
This mall is bigger than our mall in Wilson. In looking over the Palestinian Authority website, you get a different view of Gaza. These people do not look like they are starving to death, they are better dressed than people you run into everyday at our local grocery stores.
It's evident that the P.A. is getting richer for the purpose of producing more and more nukes to shoot at Israel, while they get a free ride from the world to build malls. That Israel is starving out Gaza is just plain ludicrous. What we see is what the Gaza government wants us to see, the slums of children that the Hamas' are starving ,and not Israel.
You need a lot of fat people to be the second fattest people on earth and surroundings, not some. Anything else.
According to this http://www.expatify.com/news/the-wor...countries.html Israel and Egypt are in the top 10. It would seem unlikely that Gaza would not be on the chubby side. But none of that addresses infant and juvenile nutrition levels.
Wut is there a also humanitarian crisis in Israel and Egypt, we must send a Flotilla at once
The video said they were mostly low quality goods from China, plus there is no electronics or jewellery and such things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Also, how common are such malls? Is this appearing in the news because it is a one-off?
Still, beats my local economy of card stores and charity shops.