Obama is making the Americans work for China!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTSQozWP-rM

Awesome "anti-New Deal/Chinese/Obama/Communist practices" ad

So, will the evil Chinese rule all the Americans?

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Now some people are calling this add racist because it plays on a "yellow scare". I don't think so, the video does pose some interesting concepts.

Racist? No. It didn't portray the Chinese as evil, it portrayed them as competent. Frightening, but not evil. And it implicitly raised concerns with the Chinese government rather than the people. Observe the students- eager, good-looking (especially the girl to the left at :14) and clean. Then look at the Mao banner on the wall. Message: do you really, really want the chicom government, already commanding these disciplined young people, to have more leverage over the US?

Compare and contrast the disciplined students portrayed with common US perceptions of lazy, incompetent American students (perennial perceptions, I know). Message: These people have their shit together. Why can't the US? Why can't we balance our budget and get things done?

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While this message isn't mine, it does portray a rather arguable vision of what they saw in the video. I, for one, only see the merging Chinese scaremongering (Whose laugh plays well into the patriotic crowd, who are used to seeing USA as the world's best and they now see foreigners laughing at the American "subservience") and an attempt to criticize Obama and his policy-making, who is the responsible government for "making Americans work for the Chinese".

But still, it's an awesome ad.

It's already too late the West gave up working for a living a long time ago.

Silly political ad. More scaremongering ahead of the elections.


Considering where foreign money to influence US elections is being spend, it is not Obama / the Democrats who are working for foreigners. Want to support foreign lobbyists and push their agenda through in Washington? Vote Republican.

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Silly political ad. More scaremongering ahead of the elections.


Considering where foreign money to influence US elections is being spend, it is not Obama / the Democrats who are working for foreigners. Want to support foreign lobbyists and push their agenda through in Washington? Vote Republican.

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How cynical, its almost as if you are under the silly notion that there is a large difference between democrats and republicans. There isnt, each have done their share of :daisy: the U.S., so of course taking foreign money to keep power to continue the cycle is a necessary evil for both of them.

http://www.openmarket.org/2010/10/18...foreign-money/

Its hard to focus when the glare of light from the halo's on the dems head is so blinding eh? Party affiliation dosent matter Louis its systemic and those in the system take the cash.

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Originally Posted by Odin

http://www.openmarket.org/2010/10/18...foreign-money/

Its hard to focus when the glare of light from the halo's on the dems head is so blinding eh? Party affiliation dosent matter Louis its systemic and those in the system take the cash.

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Mubarak Obama is a Muslim himself so he doesn't need to be bought by foreigners!

Almost as importantly, that source strikes me as a bit of an activist blog. The big news is the attack on Democracy, and on Obama's agenda by the Chamber of Commerce, which aggressively pursuis anonymous donations from corporations both American and foreign.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

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Prudential Financial sent in a $2 million donation last year as the U.S. Chamber of Commerce kicked off a national advertising campaign to weaken the historic rewrite of the nation’s financial regulations.
Dow Chemical delivered $1.7 million to the chamber last year as the group took a leading role in aggressively fighting proposed rules that would impose tighter security requirements on chemical facilities.

And Goldman Sachs, Chevron Texaco, and Aegon, a multinational insurance company based in the Netherlands, donated more than $8 million in recent years to a chamber foundation that has been critical of growing federal regulation and spending. These large donations — none of which were publicly disclosed by the chamber, a tax-exempt group that keeps its donors secret, as it is allowed by law — offer a glimpse of the chamber’s money-raising efforts, which it has ramped up recently in an orchestrated campaign to become one of the most well-financed critics of the Obama administration and an influential player in this fall’s Congressional elections.

They suggest that the recent allegations from President Obama and others that foreign money has ended up in the chamber’s coffers miss a larger point: The chamber has had little trouble finding American companies eager to enlist it, anonymously, to fight their political battles and pay handsomely for its help.

And these contributions, some of which can be pieced together through tax filings of corporate foundations and other public records, also show how the chamber has increasingly relied on a relatively small collection of big corporate donors to finance much of its legislative and political agenda. The chamber makes no apologies for its policy of not identifying its donors. It has vigorously opposed legislation in Congress that would require groups like it to identify their biggest contributors when they spend money on campaign ads.

Proponents of that measure pointed to reports that health insurance providers funneled at least $10 million to the chamber last year, all of it anonymously, to oppose President Obama’s health care legislation.
“The major supporters of us in health care last year were confronted with protests at their corporate headquarters, protests and harassment at the C.E.O.’s homes,” said R. Bruce Josten, the chief lobbyist at the chamber, whose office looks out on the White House. “You are wondering why companies want some protection. It is pretty clear.”

The chamber’s increasingly aggressive role — including record spending in the midterm elections that supports Republicans more than 90 percent of the time — has made it a target of critics, including a few local chamber affiliates who fear it has become too partisan and hard-nosed in its fund-raising.

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http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/22/us...r.html?_r=1&hp

As for China, I for one, welcome our autocratic, arrogant, bullying new global overlords.


Duh. Not.


Let's pray India, Brazil / South America, Turkey, Russia, Iran etc will continue their economic ascencion, while developing / adopting democracy and the rule of law. At least a majority of them.

Then again, wishful thinking for the most part. Much of the world can't wait to teach the arrogant West a lesson or two. What from the perspective of the West is considered globalisation, is for many outside the West a global struggle for supremacy, one that they feel they are gaining the upper hand in. They're loving it. They don't understand, or wish to accept, that from the perspective of the West there is no power struggle, that the West is not trying to keep them down. They think the West is stupid, that the West is being outwitted time and again despite its bid to retain supremacy.

Alas. Things could get lonely this century, it sucks to be a democracy that's outnumbered and outpowered by autocracies. I had hoped to have left that behind in the 1930's.
Only America can make the world save for democracy.

Help us, Obama-Wan, you're our only hope!


https://img215.imageshack.us/img215/6797/44115760.gif

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Alas. Things could get lonely this century, it sucks to be a democracy that's outnumbered and outpowered by autocracies. I had hoped to have left that behind in the 1930's.
Only America can make the world save for democracy.

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Maybe it's time Japan goes at it again in China?

A western-style democracy in Iran? Yes, please. I want to see Isfahan for myself..

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Originally Posted by Odin

Words.

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Odin! When did you crawl out of that toilet you used to flush yourself down into at the end of every post? ~;)

I'm not really worried about US citizens working for the Chinese, the US was built on hard labour, it's their way of life, they're used to earning their place in life, they should celebrate that the Chinese do not plan to leave anyone in the US a couch potato on the government payroll! Or should I say on the Chinese payroll?
I'm sure the Chinese would also bring back traditional values and manners to the US, stop gang crime etc., think of the possibilities!

China? Are we still really afraid of China? That's so 1990s.

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Originally Posted by TinCow

China? Are we still really afraid of China? That's so 1990s.

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Are we afraid? Why don't we ask the world's second third largest economy, Japan, which as we speak is forced into kneeling before China.

As China had previously done with smaller Asian neighbours, China moved a ship into disputed waters with Japan. The captain was subsequently arrested by Tokyo.
The Chinese retaliation was swift and brutal.

China has cornered the global rare earth's market. These are needed for pretty much anything high tech, from automobiles to computer chips to weapons systems. China has monopolised the market, it now controls 97%.
Overnight, each and every single Chinese company decided not to supply Japan with rare earths anymore. In an act of breathtaking cynicism, Beijng publicly stated it had nothing to do with it, that there was no official embargo. (In line with China's policy of sticking to the letter of trade agreements, while blatantly disregarding the spirit)

Japan was forced to surrender.
The game China was playing remained unclear: http://www.businessinsider.com/the-c...o-know-2010-10

It has created a lot of unease. As it turns out, the entire global high-tech industry is now reliant on Beijng and it's quota of rare earths. If you behave like a good boy, Beijng will supply you, if not, Beijng will punish you. Beijng can literally pull the plug by stopping rare earth exports.
Time for the world to wake up and understand the games China is playing. Scarce resources, food, mining rights, monopolised science and high tech industry - Beijng is waging agressive war in a bid for supremacy.

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Mubarak Obama is a Muslim himself so he doesn't need to be bought by foreigners!

Almost as importantly, that source strikes me as a bit of an activist blog. The big news is the attack on Democracy, and on Obama's agenda by the Chamber of Commerce, which aggressively pursuis anonymous donations from corporations both American and foreign.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/22/us...r.html?_r=1&hp

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Yes they do, which is perfectly legal. Those crazy right wing nuts on the supreme court really made it hard for the democrats didnt they? The issue is relevance, is the surplus cash relevant to the current election process or democracy as a whole? The responsibility to make the ultimate decision is the voter and unless they are giving checks out for votes label me skeptical on its impact.

I mean 5000 ads against 3500 isnt the tipping point in this election if polls are to be believed, voters are angry at washington period. No amount of cash is going to make that go away until joe avarage see's light at the end of the tunnel.

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Originally Posted by Husar

Odin! When did you crawl out of that toilet you used to flush yourself down into at the end of every post? ~;)

I'm not really worried about US citizens working for the Chinese, the US was built on hard labour, it's their way of life, they're used to earning their place in life, they should celebrate that the Chinese do not plan to leave anyone in the US a couch potato on the government payroll! Or should I say on the Chinese payroll?
I'm sure the Chinese would also bring back traditional values and manners to the US, stop gang crime etc., think of the possibilities!

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I was fighting the war on terror like every good american, my investment required time away from civilization. The problem with your theory is who is going to buy chinese goods? Consumption still drives the process and last time I checked the chinese didnt have 2 auto's in the driveway and houses filled with unnecessary crap. Most of them are still trying to get thier bowl of rice a day.

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Japan was forced to surrender.
The game China was playing remained unclear: http://www.businessinsider.com/the-c...o-know-2010-10

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best thing china could have done............. from the west's PoV, it has already coralled a load of south east asian nations back into america's embrace, china is containing itself.

I expect china has 97% of the market because they decided to sell it for less than everyone else and worldwide production shut down. Very doubtful that 97% of the rare earth elements are in china.

Interesting you should bring up rare earth materials Louis they are vital nay they are essential in the renewable energy industry in the form of Neodymium and many other elements.

Those people who shout endlessly about removing dependence on unstable areas of middle east instead have us be dependent on one of the fastest growing aggressive powers in the world.

Far better we spent our money on nuclear energy and researched things like nuclear fusion. :yes:

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Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro

I expect china has 97% of the market because they decided to sell it for less than everyone else and worldwide production shut down. Very doubtful that 97% of the rare earth elements are in china.

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Mostly they bought the rights to them materials cos no one cared too much about them what with them being rare and used for renewable industry. But you are correct that they did force others to close by selling cheaper then the bust happened and now the governments and companies need cash so there selling off there rights.

China has the rights to these minerals all over the place and they obviously have first dibs on them and at the minute that means the majority of the supply therefore comes from China

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Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy

Those people who shout endlessly about removing dependence on unstable areas of middle east instead have us be dependent on one of the fastest growing aggressive powers in the world.

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who were they?

@ Furunculus
Rare earths are used in the very computer and laptops of the bloggers who think Obama is the Anti-Christ or that global warming is a hoax too you know.

http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/2...r14-ar-562035/

When People like Mr Pickens in the previous link talk about dependence on foreign oil they neglect to mention to people they will still be dependent on China to convert the oil to usable electricity

The problem is rare earths are used in all the batteries and electronics etc etc of the modern world we cant escape it not even if we only ever use domestic oils and gas or nuke sources

http://www.arafuraresources.com.au/d...RareEarths.pdf

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Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy

@ Furunculus
Smart as you are rare earths are used in the very computer and laptops of the bloggers who think Obama is the Anti-Christ or that global warming is a hoax too you know.

http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/2...r14-ar-562035/

When People like Mr Pickens in the previous link talk about dependence on foreign oil they neglect to mention to people they will still be dependent on China to convert the oil to usable electricity

The problem is rare earths are used in all the batteries and electronics etc etc of the modern world we cant escape it not even if we only ever use domestic oils and gas or nuke sources

http://www.arafuraresources.com.au/d...RareEarths.pdf

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i know all about rare-earths, and have appreciated their economic significance for some years, i was trained as a geologist after all, i am merely questioning the rather tenuous supposition that those; "shout endlessly about removing dependence on unstable areas of middle east instead have us be dependent on one of the fastest growing aggressive powers in the world.".........?

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Originally Posted by Sasaki

I expect china has 97% of the market because they decided to sell it for less than everyone else and worldwide production shut down. Very doubtful that 97% of the rare earth elements are in china.

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The ores itself are found the world over. Processing them requires enormous investments, time, technology.

China's capturing of the market is a complicated story. It involves, amongst others:
Daylight technological robbery while America sleeps.
Half the students at the U.S. Department of Energy’s Ames National Laboratory are from China. Each time a visiting student returns to China, taking priceless know-how with him, he or she is replaced by another Chinese visiting student.
The bad news is I think it's the American taxpayer who footed the bill for China's technological advance in the field. The good news is, this time it was daylight robbery instead of the more common covert technological espionage by China.

Rare earth production is very wasteful and polluting. Either one adheres to environmental regulation (and to common sanity), in which case production is very expensive. Or one moves production to places without regulation and one pollutes the environment there. That is, move it to China.

Entire US factories have been bought and shipped intact to China. That's fine for the production of plastic toys. But was it all that clever for the production of vital resources? (Not to mention, high-tech weapons systems?)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[/quote] An important U.S. high-tech manufacturer is shutting down its American operations, laying off hundreds of workers and moving sophisticated equipment now being used to make critical parts for smart bombs to the People's Republic of China [PRC], Insight has learned.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1433243/posts
[/QUOTE]

It will take the world at least fifteen years to rebuild a non-Chinese controlled rare earth industry. All tentative efforts to rebuild a rare earth industry are agressively bullied or bought out by Beijng.

The cornering of the rare earth market was but the first step. Next to controlling the essential resource of high tech industry, is gaining a monopoly on high-tech industry itself.
This has begun. China this year cut exports of rare earths by 25%-75%. Prices have skyrocketed. The only way to circumvent this is...to move the industry and research to China.

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Originally Posted by Furunculus

i know all about rare-earths, and have appreciated their economic significance for some years, i was trained as a geologist after all, i am merely questioning the rather tenuous supposition that those; "shout endlessly about removing dependence on unstable areas of middle east instead have us be dependent on one of the fastest growing aggressive powers in the world.".........?

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It's both sides obviously Liberal/Conservative an Left/Right there all guilty of being short sighted.

The pro-enviroment side would have us dependent through the materials to produce renewable energy and the drill baby drill side would still have us dependent through conversion of the oil to electricity.

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An important U.S. high-tech manufacturer is shutting down its American operations, laying off hundreds of workers and moving sophisticated equipment now being used to make critical parts for smart bombs to the People's Republic of China [PRC], Insight has learned.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1433243/posts

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Unbelievable think about what the "West" is collectively doing to itself here on the one side we have politicians who tell us to move up the value ladder to compete with China but on the other side the very equipment we would need to add value will be tightly controlled by China.



@ Furunculus I changed the start of my earlier post felt it was not necessary to give the impression of a personal attack on you.

Well they can cut us off from rare earth metals, but that kind of thing works both ways. Just where do you think they'd be without the payments on our debt.

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Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy

It's both sides obviously Liberal/Conservative an Left/Right there all guilty of being short sighted.

The pro-enviroment side would have us dependent through the materials to produce renewable energy and the drill baby drill side would still have us dependent through conversion of the oil to electricity.

Unbelievable think about what the "West" is collectively doing to itself here on the one side we have politicians who tell us to move up the value ladder to compete with China but on the other side the very equipment we would need to add value will be tightly controlled by China.

@ Furunculus I changed the start of my earlier post felt it was not necessary to give the impression of a personal attack on you.

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cheers, agreed.

though the worldwide rare-earths industry is still only worth a billion or two per annum, and while that will increase it is reckoned that most countries/industries have strategic reserves that could last for years yet, so armageddon scenarios for western wealth generation are a little wide of the mark.

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Originally Posted by Furunculus

though the worldwide rare-earths industry is still only worth a billion or two per annum, and while that will increase it is reckoned that most countries/industries have strategic reserves that could last for years yet, so armageddon scenarios for western wealth generation are a little wide of the mark.

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This would have more weight behind it if the countries in question retained the capacity to process the material and to add value through turning it into goods and services etc.

Todays world prefers to export such capacity in the belief it can move up the ladder but the Chinese will own the ladder or at least the right to use the ladder.

With all due respect to the opinions presented thus far, I think it's a bit alarmist to focus on one particular market and proclaim a lead in it offers China all strategic advantages going forward. Japan is in a particularly difficult position, due to the combination of it's heavy dependence on the electronics market as a percentage of its GDP coupled with the relatively limited natural resources the islands themselves enjoy.

Much more troubling to me are longer term trends that the West in general and the USA in particular seem only to willing to ignore, or possibly even embrace. Today's global economy has shifted since the 60's/70's, and a strong manufacturing base does not infuse the same GDP value that it once did. Most economists would agree that winning in the marketplace of ideas is where forward looking economies should be focusing.

Which is why I find trends in education and intellectual property rights so disturbing. They're 2 separate but strongly linked issues. In the former, our students are proving themselves too lazy to find a way to prove their worth in the market. Engineering is viewed as too difficult, too 'geeky', and doesn't pay well enough. Our students seem to surrender a little bit more of what little aptitude they do possess in science and mathematics each year. At the end of the day, to be fair to the Chinese (and the Taiwanese, Malaysians, Indonesians, Singaporeans and Indians for that matter), why shouldn't they be able to take those jobs? If they're better educated, work harder and offer more insights & advances, shouldn't they be rewarded with the fruits of their labor?

Speaking as somebody who makes hiring decisions in the technology marketplace, I will tell you quite honestly that nobody seeks to hire Chinese or Indian nationals outight. H1B paperwork is difficult, expensive, and the work-arounds to make certain that we don't violate ITAR rules in the process of having foreign national desingers working on dual-use technology just don't make it a preferable course of action. What's more, foreign nationals working in the US make the exact same as their born-and-bred American coworkers.

So why do we continute to hire more and more foreign nationals year over year? Why do we actively pursue shipping design activity to design centers located in Asia? Because that's where the talented labor pool lies. You can drag a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink. Despite having the pinnacle of the world's higher education system, the vast majority of our technical post-graduate programs are occupied by Chinese, Indian and other Asian students who have every right and entitlement to those seats. Why? Because they're willing to put the work in that is necessary to succeed in them.

It is this trend that I find far more disturbing and frightenting then the Chinese ability to corner a particular market, or even to purchase debt on the free market for that matter.

As for the gist of the ad, that Democrats are trying to run up the defecit in an effort to enslave us to the Chinese, :daisy: I say.

Yes, we need to exhibit fiscal discipline. But has anybody forgotten the original Health-Care blow-up, aka Medicare Part D? Last time I checked, Obama was a freshman senator who was just taking his oath offfice when that was passed. Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi were sitting in the corner, waiting for their chance to shine. It was those guys with the -R next to their name that were running up defecits in the 100's of billions of dollars. First stimulus bill? Bush. Bailout? Bush again. Where was the moral outrage just 2 short years ago?

The truth is, our government is intrinsicly corrupt in ways that would make a Pukhet madam or a Cosa Nostra Don blush. They both have zero ability to reign in spending and even less desire to do so.

I've never been accused of being overly optimistic, but at this point in time, I am genuinely bleak on America's prospects for the future.

@ Don

I have basically been saying that in other threads on the org for ages people keep spouting about retraining for a "Smart Economy" and then they go and let the skills wither that will implement it.

True manufacturing is worth less and employs less etc etc but where will our designers get the skills to design if they first dont intern in a bogstandard company that makes widgets.

I have a very bleak view on the future our politicians and financial overlords are happy to de-industrialize but they offer little to take the place of it. We have made it easy for our young people to think they can do other courses to earn a living while failing to understand there will be no service economy with out a bluecollar wage packet.

@Don: What I find, for the USA, to be more disturbing in education/IP trends is the unhealthy focus on “monetizing” patents/IP of questionable value or ownership and the rather horrible standards that the USPTO apparently maintains. (Some of those patents they pass, one wonders whether or not the USPTO gets paid by the number of applications they accept.)

For examples see the SCO saga which is simply depressing, as well as the practice among high profile software companies at least of maintaining a “war chest” (patent portfolio) to assure MAD in case of patent suits... Also remember the game SUN employees used to play: who could turn the whackiest idea into a patent. Plus the usual IBM patents which amount to little more than a meeting during lunchbreak. (That is apparently patented by IBM now.)

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Originally Posted by Odin

I was fighting the war on terror like every good american, my investment required time away from civilization. The problem with your theory is who is going to buy chinese goods? Consumption still drives the process and last time I checked the chinese didnt have 2 auto's in the driveway and houses filled with unnecessary crap. Most of them are still trying to get thier bowl of rice a day.

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Yurop.
Last I heard you guys were no happy with our huge german export profits so we could buy some of the cheap stuff you american slaves workers would produce for the Chinese.

Oh and congrats on getting out alive, hope you're all fine and okay and stuff.

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Originally Posted by Odin

:daisy:

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Kool, we can say :daisy: now in the forum... i have long waited for this :daisy: day!!!

/\ Well that won't last long.

Anyways - on the idea that the GOP simply does whatever big business wants. Walmart, one of the biggest companies in the world supported both universal healthcare and minimum wage increases. Yup, two key Democratic party positions.

Why? Because it helps them; they are using the government to crush smaller business competition, which often pay minimum wages and can't afford company healthcare like Walmart can.

CR

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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

Kool, we can say :daisy: now in the forum... i have long waited for this :daisy: day!!!

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I didnt realize you couldnt say it, eitherway its not like I have a lot to loose. I think I have visted here 4 times in the last 3 years, last time I got a warn from seamus so somehow I suspect I am on borrowed time anyway.

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Originally Posted by Husar

Yurop.
Last I heard you guys were no happy with our huge german export profits so we could buy some of the cheap stuff you american slaves workers would produce for the Chinese.

Oh and congrats on getting out alive, hope you're all fine and okay and stuff.

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We dont produce much Husar, although we have perfected the production of consumers. You need us to consume, who else is going to buy all the manufactured crap? the africans? how about the islamists who want to take over? Also, no one is getting out unscathed from the war on terror, the homefront just hasnt realized the jihad is every where. The war of ideology (the muslim term for war on terror) is being lost on multiple fronts. You see we have this problem in the states, the genius public thinks these jihadists are all seperate entities with their own regional issue. Reality couldnt be further from that notion, you just hope merkel keep talking about a failed multicultural state, she's pretty close to the mark.

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Originally Posted by Odin

I didnt realize you couldnt say it, eitherway its not like I have a lot to loose. I think I have visted here 4 times in the last 3 years, last time I got a warn from seamus so somehow I suspect I am on borrowed time anyway.

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Nuh, you gotta stay, that's an order, I need someone to crush me and make fun of me once in a while so I can still think I'm funny in some way at least. ~;)

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Originally Posted by Odin

We dont produce much Husar, although we have perfected the production of consumers. You need us to consume, who else is going to buy all the manufactured crap? the africans? how about the islamists who want to take over?

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We actually export machines to the Chinese so they can manufacture more stuff, and that you donÄ't produce much at the moment doesn't matter, in my little future utopia the Chinese will give you all the machines you need to produce a lot. ~;)

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Originally Posted by Odin

Also, no one is getting out unscathed from the war on terror, the homefront just hasnt realized the jihad is every where. The war of ideology (the muslim term for war on terror) is being lost on multiple fronts. You see we have this problem in the states, the genius public thinks these jihadists are all seperate entities with their own regional issue. Reality couldnt be further from that notion, you just hope merkel keep talking about a failed multicultural state, she's pretty close to the mark.

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The multicultural state has failed in some instances, but not because all muslims are bad, rather because we let those people that are bad alone for too long. When kids terrorize teachers and the police doesn't dare to go into certain areas without going in in force, then even I can tell something is going horribly wrong, but there are other people who fit in rather well or at least know how to behave themselves.
You cannot really go to the middle east, talk to some loonies and then deduce from that that all immigrants must be loonies like them.

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Originally Posted by Husar

Nuh, you gotta stay, that's an order, I need someone to crush me and make fun of me once in a while so I can still think I'm funny in some way at least. ~;)

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You survived without me for years, you never did, nor do you now need a poster named "odin" to banter back and forth with. I'm sure IRL you could use a good kick in the ass and if we were sitting at a bar talking I'd be happy to give it to you, but for now let's enjoy the ride and see how long it lasts.

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The multicultural state has failed in some instances, but not because all Muslims are bad, rather because we let those people that are bad alone for too long. When kids terrorize teachers and the police doesn't dare to go into certain areas without going in force, then even I can tell something is going horribly wrong, but there are other people who fit in rather well or at least know how to behave themselves.
You cannot really go to the middle east, talk to some loonies and then deduce from that that all immigrants must be loonies like them.

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The only thing I have found to be worse than a devout Muslim is a Christian and the point is rather simple in my view. People who take religion and apply it universally to a culture that includes non believers are the problem. That's happened time and again in human history and its happening now, the difference is the influx of immigrants into Europe who have provided good cheap labor are enjoying the fruits of social policy but seem to want to mandate their belief system into the larger discussion of social and cultural policy.

That's the failure, because it's been a massive miscalculation on the west part as to the zealous nature of the Muslim belief. Let me say it this way, the seeming liberal Muslim you see on the street in Dresden gets called to prayer and his imam tells him to kill non believers he is likely to give it strong consideration if not do so. The west hasn't fully grasped the depth to which Islam has penetrated the moral and ethical practices of the ordinary practioner. That doesn't make them bad people, it makes them believers, now we are lucky in the west we got out from under the dogma of religion and have extended people freedoms of thought that, well, frankly hasn't yet been broached in the Islamic world.

The multicultural state doesn't work when the people you bring in don't want to be absorbed into your culture but rather want your culture absorbed into theirs. That's not their fault, that's ours for not seeing it clearly.

By the way, this new message board sucks. Its a pain in the ass when you quote someone.

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Originally Posted by Odin

I think I have visted here 4 times in the last 3 years, last time I got a warn from seamus so somehow I suspect I am on borrowed time anyway.

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I think I'm in love with you...

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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

I think I'm in love with you...

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I searched for data on NTW and ETW and the org came up on a search. 5 things popped into my head.

1. tribesman
2. devestation dave
3. don corleone
4. whacker
5. biased european mods

You were #2 dave and while it might not be pure love, i'll bring the vasaline you bring an open mind.

:toilet:

Thanks to this video, I now know the Greek and Roman empires fell because of massive taxes and healthcare reforms.

It's also what ended the dinosaurs.

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Originally Posted by Hax

It's also what ended the dinosaurs.

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Cap and trade got the dinosaurs....

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Japan was forced to surrender.
The game China was playing remained unclear: http://www.businessinsider.com/the-c...o-know-2010-10

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best thing china could have done............. from the west's PoV, it has already coralled a load of south east asian nations back into america's embrace, china is containing itself.

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in reference to my previous assertion:

http://blogs.the-american-interest.c...power-in-asia/

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Originally Posted by Furunculus

in reference to my previous assertion:

http://blogs.the-american-interest.c...power-in-asia/

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Yes, yes, yes and yes

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Originally Posted by Furunculus

in reference to my previous assertion:

http://blogs.the-american-interest.c...power-in-asia/

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What I find the most amazing is how with only a slight difference in emphasis they'd mostly be in China's embrace:

South Korea should love them for helping with north Korea
Trade between India and China is growing at a phenominal pace and has greater energy needs than Pakistan (and as an ally is far more useful)

China appears to have looked at their succesful approach to Africa and is doing the same thing closer to home, but forgot that this can upset countries who are less phased about dealings on another continent.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Yes, yes, yes and yes

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Meh. True in the short term the USA benefits from these small scale diplomatic disputes. In the long term that's an empty package though, because the other Asian powers will sooner or later realise that unless the USA radically alters its politics it will ultimately have to default on the alliance when a true dispute with its allies and China pops up. If the USA isn't going to risk a long term souring of relations with a non-power such as Argentina over a pair of sheep; why should they feel confident that the USA would risk long term tensions with one of its prime suppliers over the Senkaku islands or the South Chinese Sea?

Some commenter to that article posted a link to another article which contains slightly more substance: http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2010...ing-weltmacht/
I kind of liked this comment (its tangential but the mindset it describes is reminiscent of what is espoused in that blog post referred to by furunculus):

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Originally Posted by Jim Dooley (as comment to that blog)

Let me see if I get the big picture.
We get to position ABM sites in places like Poland and the Czech Republic and expect Moscow to snooze on down military road despite those little so 20th century problems it had with Germany that resulted in the country getting turned inside out.
Our Navy gets to ply its assets above, on, and below the South China Sea while we expect Beijing to smile despite those little so 20th century problems it had with, well, everybody. Surprise! the result was that the country got turned inside out.
Nice delusion if you can keep it.
P.S. When the Soviets tried to install some of those nasty missile thingies in our back yard, we about jumped through our you know whats.
File this one under ‘you couldn’t make it up except in Washington.’

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Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios

I kind of liked this comment (its tangential but the mindset it describes is reminiscent of what is espoused in that blog post referred to by furunculus):

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Let me see if I get the big picture.
We get to position ABM sites in places like Poland and the Czech Republic and expect Moscow to snooze on down military road despite those little so 20th century problems it had with Germany that resulted in the country getting turned inside out.
Our Navy gets to ply its assets above, on, and below the South China Sea while we expect Beijing to smile despite those little so 20th century problems it had with, well, everybody. Surprise! the result was that the country got turned inside out.
Nice delusion if you can keep it.
P.S. When the Soviets tried to install some of those nasty missile thingies in our back yard, we about jumped through our you know whats.
File this one under ‘you couldn’t make it up except in Washington.’

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Yes, there is a train of thought that thinks western democracies 'surrounded and kept down' Germany before 1914, and again from 1919 to 1939, that western democracies surrounded and kept down the Soviet Union, and that western democracy is surrounding and keeping down China now.

You go right ahead and apologise to all of them if you must, but as for me, I'm going to channel my inner Dave and say they can all kiss my hairy *beep*

I read a book lately which had a lot of rubbish in it on the future developments in Asia but the one thing I took from it was China is so big that dominating other countries would be a distraction.

The potential to cause major trouble in the rural regions as the urban ones get richer due to economic integration is a big worry in Beijing. Hence we keep reading in the Economist or see it on telly about how they keep trying to foster development in the interior to head off unrest.

I suspect it will fail no matter who you are the center will always draw your money and workers the best and brighest and the not so bright towards it.

It will take a while but I suspect that China will have to stop spending money on buying influence and instead spend it on it's own people in an attempt to shut them up. Once the people and the government start down that road the limits of Chinese power will be as apparent as the limits of US power.

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Yes, there is a train of thought that thinks western democracies 'surrounded and kept down' Germany before 1914, and again from 1919 to 1939, that western democracies surrounded and kept down the Soviet Union, and that western democracy is surrounding and keeping down China now.

You go right ahead and apologise to all of them if you must, but as for me, I'm going to channel my inner Dave and say they can all kiss my hairy *beep*

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Ehrm no? Just that it neatly paints a mindset wherein the USA (or really, leader of the world-order of today) is certainly fallible but somehow, supposedly, nobody really mind the mistakes it makes.
It might've passed under your radar but the blog article referred to by furunculus seems to be convinced that growing powers are going to just take the USA for what it is from some sort of belief that the only alternative is China. It seems to be convinced that somehow whatever USA's faults might be those countries are willing to overlook them when China does something minor. It is almost like the writer assumes blind fear on the part of countries like Australia, Vietnam, Japan, South Korea, Singapore or even India instead of a more cold and dispassionate appraisal of their true options.

I don't buy that. I think that aligning yourself more closely with the USA is a simple way for those countries to assert their independence, and it will last only until eventual round of reconciliation, or until they find their own forums/platforms. (As increasingly India and -unrelated- Brazil seem to have done.) :shrug:

india and brazil are in a different category entirely (tho for different reasons), to the likes of SK, japan, vietnam and the like.

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Originally Posted by Furunculus

india and brazil are in a different category entirely (tho for different reasons), to the likes of SK, japan, vietnam and the like.

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Interestingly Brazil has a limit on it's power due both geography and linguistic heritage effectively it is isolated on the east of South America

On the Economist today, a slightly different take on the global importance of trade with China:

China may not matter quite as much as you think


"CHINA is now the biggest export market for countries as far afield as Brazil (accounting for 12.5% of Brazilian exports in 2009), South Africa (10.3%) Japan (18.9%) and Australia (21.8%). Each surge or wobble in China's economy has a material impact in these places. But exports are only one component of GDP. In most economies of any size, domestic spending matters more. At the start of the 1990s, Japan accounted for a bigger share of GDP than China does today. Its growth slowed from about 5% to 1% in the first half of the 1990s without any discernible effect on global trends."

The last point (in the last 2 sentences) might not eb the kind of thing you'd satke your house on, but food for though nonetheless.

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Originally Posted by Furunculus

india and brazil are in a different category entirely (tho for different reasons), to the likes of SK, japan, vietnam and the like.

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Agreed. Where India might assert stronger ties to the Dalai Lama to tell China where exactly the line is drawn, Vietnam/SK/Japan can't really afford that kind of game.

But what those other powers can do is establish (or in the case of Japan re-invigorate) a broader “network” of partners to mitigate the threat of China and be able to exert some leverage on China through that.

agreed, and they will do it using the US as a counterweight.

We all know what we have to do, we have to appoint Beskar as the first President of the United Federation of Nations.

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Originally Posted by Beskar

We all know what we have to do, we have to appoint Beskar as the first President of the United Federation of Nations.

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Cool but lets call it just "The Federation" then I bags first go in the holodeck cos if Dev Dave was to get there first I aint cleaning up after him.

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Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy

Cool but lets call it just "The Federation" then I bags first go in the holodeck cos if Dev Dave was to get there first I aint cleaning up after him.

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Sure, I will allow you to be a Beta tester.

oh I can see a pun there involving "----- beta"

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Originally Posted by Furunculus

the likes of SK, japan, vietnam and the like.

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Well Japan ran to Vietnam yesterday, to ensure rare earths and strenghten ties against Chinese domination.

Meanwhile, Russia - subtle as ever - decided to kick Japan when its down, with Medvedev visiting the Kuriles as a provocation. With China and Russia being mostly cordial, Japan must feel awfully isolated on their little archipelago.

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President Dmitri A. Medvedev on Monday visited one of the southern Kurile Islands, which the Soviet Union seized from Japan at the end of World War II, making it clear that Russia had no plans to cede the mineral-rich territory despite Japanese demands.

Mr. Medvedev is the first Russian or Soviet leader to visit the disputed Kuriles, part of an archipelago that stretches from the southern tip of the Kamchatka Peninsula in eastern Russia to Hokkaido in the northernmost part of Japan. The four southernmost islands, called the Northern Territories by Japan, are home to only around 20,000 people, but grant access to prize fisheries and promising oil and gas fields.
Mr. Medvedev told residents that Russia was prepared to invest heavily to raise living standards there.

“We want people to remain here,” he said while visiting a family on Kunashir, one of the islands. “Development here is important. We will definitely be investing money here.”
Japan, which warned in September that such a visit would “severely hurt ties,” objected immediately. Foreign Minister Seiji Maehara said Mr. Medvedev’s presence “injures the feelings of the population of Japan,” and he summoned Russia’s ambassador to deliver a note of protest.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/02/wo...02kuriles.html

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