Obama is making the Americans work for China!

[Crazed Rabbit]

/\ Well that won't last long.

Anyways - on the idea that the GOP simply does whatever big business wants. Walmart, one of the biggest companies in the world supported both universal healthcare and minimum wage increases. Yup, two key Democratic party positions.

Why? Because it helps them; they are using the government to crush smaller business competition, which often pay minimum wages and can't afford company healthcare like Walmart can.

CR

[Odin]

Kool, we can say now in the forum... i have long waited for this day!!!

I didnt realize you couldnt say it, eitherway its not like I have a lot to loose. I think I have visted here 4 times in the last 3 years, last time I got a warn from seamus so somehow I suspect I am on borrowed time anyway.

[Odin]

Yurop.
Last I heard you guys were no happy with our huge german export profits so we could buy some of the cheap stuff you american slaves workers would produce for the Chinese.

Oh and congrats on getting out alive, hope you're all fine and okay and stuff.

We dont produce much Husar, although we have perfected the production of consumers. You need us to consume, who else is going to buy all the manufactured crap? the africans? how about the islamists who want to take over? Also, no one is getting out unscathed from the war on terror, the homefront just hasnt realized the jihad is every where. The war of ideology (the muslim term for war on terror) is being lost on multiple fronts. You see we have this problem in the states, the genius public thinks these jihadists are all seperate entities with their own regional issue. Reality couldnt be further from that notion, you just hope merkel keep talking about a failed multicultural state, she's pretty close to the mark.

[Husar]

I didnt realize you couldnt say it, eitherway its not like I have a lot to loose. I think I have visted here 4 times in the last 3 years, last time I got a warn from seamus so somehow I suspect I am on borrowed time anyway.

Nuh, you gotta stay, that's an order, I need someone to crush me and make fun of me once in a while so I can still think I'm funny in some way at least.

We dont produce much Husar, although we have perfected the production of consumers. You need us to consume, who else is going to buy all the manufactured crap? the africans? how about the islamists who want to take over?

We actually export machines to the Chinese so they can manufacture more stuff, and that you donÄ't produce much at the moment doesn't matter, in my little future utopia the Chinese will give you all the machines you need to produce a lot.

Also, no one is getting out unscathed from the war on terror, the homefront just hasnt realized the jihad is every where. The war of ideology (the muslim term for war on terror) is being lost on multiple fronts. You see we have this problem in the states, the genius public thinks these jihadists are all seperate entities with their own regional issue. Reality couldnt be further from that notion, you just hope merkel keep talking about a failed multicultural state, she's pretty close to the mark.

The multicultural state has failed in some instances, but not because all muslims are bad, rather because we let those people that are bad alone for too long. When kids terrorize teachers and the police doesn't dare to go into certain areas without going in in force, then even I can tell something is going horribly wrong, but there are other people who fit in rather well or at least know how to behave themselves.
You cannot really go to the middle east, talk to some loonies and then deduce from that that all immigrants must be loonies like them.

[Odin]

Nuh, you gotta stay, that's an order, I need someone to crush me and make fun of me once in a while so I can still think I'm funny in some way at least.

You survived without me for years, you never did, nor do you now need a poster named "odin" to banter back and forth with. I'm sure IRL you could use a good kick in the ass and if we were sitting at a bar talking I'd be happy to give it to you, but for now let's enjoy the ride and see how long it lasts.

The multicultural state has failed in some instances, but not because all Muslims are bad, rather because we let those people that are bad alone for too long. When kids terrorize teachers and the police doesn't dare to go into certain areas without going in force, then even I can tell something is going horribly wrong, but there are other people who fit in rather well or at least know how to behave themselves.
You cannot really go to the middle east, talk to some loonies and then deduce from that that all immigrants must be loonies like them.

The only thing I have found to be worse than a devout Muslim is a Christian and the point is rather simple in my view. People who take religion and apply it universally to a culture that includes non believers are the problem. That's happened time and again in human history and its happening now, the difference is the influx of immigrants into Europe who have provided good cheap labor are enjoying the fruits of social policy but seem to want to mandate their belief system into the larger discussion of social and cultural policy.

That's the failure, because it's been a massive miscalculation on the west part as to the zealous nature of the Muslim belief. Let me say it this way, the seeming liberal Muslim you see on the street in Dresden gets called to prayer and his imam tells him to kill non believers he is likely to give it strong consideration if not do so. The west hasn't fully grasped the depth to which Islam has penetrated the moral and ethical practices of the ordinary practioner. That doesn't make them bad people, it makes them believers, now we are lucky in the west we got out from under the dogma of religion and have extended people freedoms of thought that, well, frankly hasn't yet been broached in the Islamic world.

The multicultural state doesn't work when the people you bring in don't want to be absorbed into your culture but rather want your culture absorbed into theirs. That's not their fault, that's ours for not seeing it clearly.

By the way, this new message board sucks. Its a pain in the ass when you quote someone.

[Devastatin Dave]

I think I have visted here 4 times in the last 3 years, last time I got a warn from seamus so somehow I suspect I am on borrowed time anyway.

I think I'm in love with you...

[Odin]

I think I'm in love with you...

I searched for data on NTW and ETW and the org came up on a search. 5 things popped into my head.

1. tribesman
2. devestation dave
3. don corleone
4. whacker
5. biased european mods

You were #2 dave and while it might not be pure love, i'll bring the vasaline you bring an open mind.

[Meneldil]

Thanks to this video, I now know the Greek and Roman empires fell because of massive taxes and healthcare reforms.

[Hax]

It's also what ended the dinosaurs.

[Devastatin Dave]

It's also what ended the dinosaurs.

Cap and trade got the dinosaurs....

[Furunculus]

Japan was forced to surrender.
The game China was playing remained unclear: http://www.businessinsider.com/the-c...o-know-2010-10

best thing china could have done............. from the west's PoV, it has already coralled a load of south east asian nations back into america's embrace, china is containing itself.

in reference to my previous assertion:

http://blogs.the-american-interest.c...power-in-asia/

[Louis VI the Fat]

in reference to my previous assertion:

http://blogs.the-american-interest.c...power-in-asia/

Yes, yes, yes and yes

[rory_20_uk]

in reference to my previous assertion:

http://blogs.the-american-interest.c...power-in-asia/

What I find the most amazing is how with only a slight difference in emphasis they'd mostly be in China's embrace:

South Korea should love them for helping with north Korea
Trade between India and China is growing at a phenominal pace and has greater energy needs than Pakistan (and as an ally is far more useful)

China appears to have looked at their succesful approach to Africa and is doing the same thing closer to home, but forgot that this can upset countries who are less phased about dealings on another continent.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Yes, yes, yes and yes

Meh. True in the short term the USA benefits from these small scale diplomatic disputes. In the long term that's an empty package though, because the other Asian powers will sooner or later realise that unless the USA radically alters its politics it will ultimately have to default on the alliance when a true dispute with its allies and China pops up. If the USA isn't going to risk a long term souring of relations with a non-power such as Argentina over a pair of sheep; why should they feel confident that the USA would risk long term tensions with one of its prime suppliers over the Senkaku islands or the South Chinese Sea?

Some commenter to that article posted a link to another article which contains slightly more substance: http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2010...ing-weltmacht/
I kind of liked this comment (its tangential but the mindset it describes is reminiscent of what is espoused in that blog post referred to by furunculus):

Let me see if I get the big picture.
We get to position ABM sites in places like Poland and the Czech Republic and expect Moscow to snooze on down military road despite those little so 20th century problems it had with Germany that resulted in the country getting turned inside out.
Our Navy gets to ply its assets above, on, and below the South China Sea while we expect Beijing to smile despite those little so 20th century problems it had with, well, everybody. Surprise! the result was that the country got turned inside out.
Nice delusion if you can keep it.
P.S. When the Soviets tried to install some of those nasty missile thingies in our back yard, we about jumped through our you know whats.
File this one under ‘you couldn’t make it up except in Washington.’

[Louis VI the Fat]

I kind of liked this comment (its tangential but the mindset it describes is reminiscent of what is espoused in that blog post referred to by furunculus):

Let me see if I get the big picture.
We get to position ABM sites in places like Poland and the Czech Republic and expect Moscow to snooze on down military road despite those little so 20th century problems it had with Germany that resulted in the country getting turned inside out.
Our Navy gets to ply its assets above, on, and below the South China Sea while we expect Beijing to smile despite those little so 20th century problems it had with, well, everybody. Surprise! the result was that the country got turned inside out.
Nice delusion if you can keep it.
P.S. When the Soviets tried to install some of those nasty missile thingies in our back yard, we about jumped through our you know whats.
File this one under ‘you couldn’t make it up except in Washington.’

Yes, there is a train of thought that thinks western democracies 'surrounded and kept down' Germany before 1914, and again from 1919 to 1939, that western democracies surrounded and kept down the Soviet Union, and that western democracy is surrounding and keeping down China now.

You go right ahead and apologise to all of them if you must, but as for me, I'm going to channel my inner Dave and say they can all kiss my hairy *beep*

[gaelic cowboy]

I read a book lately which had a lot of rubbish in it on the future developments in Asia but the one thing I took from it was China is so big that dominating other countries would be a distraction.

The potential to cause major trouble in the rural regions as the urban ones get richer due to economic integration is a big worry in Beijing. Hence we keep reading in the Economist or see it on telly about how they keep trying to foster development in the interior to head off unrest.

I suspect it will fail no matter who you are the center will always draw your money and workers the best and brighest and the not so bright towards it.

It will take a while but I suspect that China will have to stop spending money on buying influence and instead spend it on it's own people in an attempt to shut them up. Once the people and the government start down that road the limits of Chinese power will be as apparent as the limits of US power.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Yes, there is a train of thought that thinks western democracies 'surrounded and kept down' Germany before 1914, and again from 1919 to 1939, that western democracies surrounded and kept down the Soviet Union, and that western democracy is surrounding and keeping down China now.

You go right ahead and apologise to all of them if you must, but as for me, I'm going to channel my inner Dave and say they can all kiss my hairy *beep*

Ehrm no? Just that it neatly paints a mindset wherein the USA (or really, leader of the world-order of today) is certainly fallible but somehow, supposedly, nobody really mind the mistakes it makes.
It might've passed under your radar but the blog article referred to by furunculus seems to be convinced that growing powers are going to just take the USA for what it is from some sort of belief that the only alternative is China. It seems to be convinced that somehow whatever USA's faults might be those countries are willing to overlook them when China does something minor. It is almost like the writer assumes blind fear on the part of countries like Australia, Vietnam, Japan, South Korea, Singapore or even India instead of a more cold and dispassionate appraisal of their true options.

I don't buy that. I think that aligning yourself more closely with the USA is a simple way for those countries to assert their independence, and it will last only until eventual round of reconciliation, or until they find their own forums/platforms. (As increasingly India and -unrelated- Brazil seem to have done.)

[Furunculus]

india and brazil are in a different category entirely (tho for different reasons), to the likes of SK, japan, vietnam and the like.

[gaelic cowboy]

india and brazil are in a different category entirely (tho for different reasons), to the likes of SK, japan, vietnam and the like.

Interestingly Brazil has a limit on it's power due both geography and linguistic heritage effectively it is isolated on the east of South America

[al Roumi]

On the Economist today, a slightly different take on the global importance of trade with China:

China may not matter quite as much as you think


"CHINA is now the biggest export market for countries as far afield as Brazil (accounting for 12.5% of Brazilian exports in 2009), South Africa (10.3%) Japan (18.9%) and Australia (21.8%). Each surge or wobble in China's economy has a material impact in these places. But exports are only one component of GDP. In most economies of any size, domestic spending matters more. At the start of the 1990s, Japan accounted for a bigger share of GDP than China does today. Its growth slowed from about 5% to 1% in the first half of the 1990s without any discernible effect on global trends."

The last point (in the last 2 sentences) might not eb the kind of thing you'd satke your house on, but food for though nonetheless.

[Tellos Athenaios]

india and brazil are in a different category entirely (tho for different reasons), to the likes of SK, japan, vietnam and the like.

Agreed. Where India might assert stronger ties to the Dalai Lama to tell China where exactly the line is drawn, Vietnam/SK/Japan can't really afford that kind of game.

But what those other powers can do is establish (or in the case of Japan re-invigorate) a broader “network” of partners to mitigate the threat of China and be able to exert some leverage on China through that.

[Furunculus]

agreed, and they will do it using the US as a counterweight.

[Beskar]

We all know what we have to do, we have to appoint Beskar as the first President of the United Federation of Nations.

[gaelic cowboy]

We all know what we have to do, we have to appoint Beskar as the first President of the United Federation of Nations.

Cool but lets call it just "The Federation" then I bags first go in the holodeck cos if Dev Dave was to get there first I aint cleaning up after him.

[Beskar]

Cool but lets call it just "The Federation" then I bags first go in the holodeck cos if Dev Dave was to get there first I aint cleaning up after him.

Sure, I will allow you to be a Beta tester.

[gaelic cowboy]

oh I can see a pun there involving "----- beta"

[Louis VI the Fat]

the likes of SK, japan, vietnam and the like.

Well Japan ran to Vietnam yesterday, to ensure rare earths and strenghten ties against Chinese domination.

Meanwhile, Russia - subtle as ever - decided to kick Japan when its down, with Medvedev visiting the Kuriles as a provocation. With China and Russia being mostly cordial, Japan must feel awfully isolated on their little archipelago.

President Dmitri A. Medvedev on Monday visited one of the southern Kurile Islands, which the Soviet Union seized from Japan at the end of World War II, making it clear that Russia had no plans to cede the mineral-rich territory despite Japanese demands.

Mr. Medvedev is the first Russian or Soviet leader to visit the disputed Kuriles, part of an archipelago that stretches from the southern tip of the Kamchatka Peninsula in eastern Russia to Hokkaido in the northernmost part of Japan. The four southernmost islands, called the Northern Territories by Japan, are home to only around 20,000 people, but grant access to prize fisheries and promising oil and gas fields.
Mr. Medvedev told residents that Russia was prepared to invest heavily to raise living standards there.

“We want people to remain here,” he said while visiting a family on Kunashir, one of the islands. “Development here is important. We will definitely be investing money here.”
Japan, which warned in September that such a visit would “severely hurt ties,” objected immediately. Foreign Minister Seiji Maehara said Mr. Medvedev’s presence “injures the feelings of the population of Japan,” and he summoned Russia’s ambassador to deliver a note of protest.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/02/wo...02kuriles.html