36 coptic christians killed in Egypt, leftist people know it's respect, it's pretty normal by now. Lefist people know hatebeards are the new jews even if the old ones cannot be found where culture is enriched, ignorance is blitz.
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36 coptic christians killed in Egypt, leftist people know it's respect, it's pretty normal by now. Lefist people know hatebeards are the new jews even if the old ones cannot be found where culture is enriched, ignorance is blitz.
the point is? stop killin coptic christians because they are coptic? or because they are christians? or because killing is always wrong? or should leftist people stop being leftist people? or should we stop the ignorance?
Egypt was Christian until the Muslims conquered it. Might is or at least was right.
What they do in their own ghastly country is their own problem. Our concern is what happens over here.
~:smoking:
Oh, yes that must be right. :dizzy2:
Then again why is everyone inflamed by American laws and practices. Not a European problem, right?
I thought that human rights were everyone’s concern, no? :embarassed:
Is the lack of interest because it is far away, or because the victims were Christians, or because the perpetrators were Muslims?
There also seems to be a lack of interest on the part of the Egyptian government to do anything about these sorts of things. Perhaps not as bad as Pakistan, where the rumor of lessening the blasphemy laws results in strikes and riots but nothings says it can’t escalate.
So much for a community of nations. :no:
Sad. The Christian communities in the Middle East are the oldest in the world. They have endured for two thousand years. We may see them all destroyed, forever, in our lifetime.
There is an etnic cleansing going on in the Middle East. Harassment, religious pressure, emigration and demographic developments have sharply reduced the numbers of non-Islamic populations throughout the Middle East. Many are on the brink of extinction.
Tragically, non-Muslims have been very influential in Arabian nationalist movements the oast century. Their project of secular states, of an Arabian revival, seems to have largely failed. A sad irony. Rivalled in irony perhaps only by Iraq, in which Christians enjoyed a reasonable status ten years ago, but which is now etnically cleansed of non-Muslims.
What, exactly, would you propose?
A note of condemnation?
Free money / aid?
Troops / police?
"Something must be done" is right up there with "think of the children!" in terms of utility.
~:smoking:
No, we should deny that there are any human rights abuses occurring in any Islamic countries and ignore the whole thing.
If you don’t see a problem then there is no problem, right?
So... you think a stern letter is the way forward. Great plan! That will really help matters by doing nothing, but annoying the locals.
Or is making you feel somehow morally superior and end in itself?
~:smoking:
Rory I would never have you as a doctor, you are capable of telling me I'm going to have slow and painful death while solving a sedukoQuote:
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
To be fair, I'd get the nurse to tell you. I'd be more interested to know if you were going to be cremated as I get some decent money for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
~:smoking:
Clearly religious intolerance is the underlying issue.
To me, religion just seems an excuse for disagreement and bloodshed.
At least in the media it is being portrayed either as a misunderstood religion of peace or a threat to world security.
What the truth is, I don’t know. But clearly something needs to be done regarding increasing militant acts against non-believers in their religion.
There isn’t much that can be more abhorrent than religious violence. There are those who feel justified in most any act, no matter how heinous.
There is no reasoning with them. Those who preach peace are usually the first victims.
Increased tolerance on the part of western countries is seen as weakness, meanwhile countries with Islamic majorities are unwilling or unable to deal with it.
What do we do?
I wish I knew!
Maybe I could get some decent money out of that.
Quote:
Sad. The Christian communities in the Middle East are the oldest in the world. They have endured for two thousand years. We may see them all destroyed, forever, in our lifetime.
There is an etnic cleansing going on in the Middle East. Harassment, religious pressure, emigration and demographic developments have sharply reduced the numbers of non-Islamic populations throughout the Middle East. Many are on the brink of extinction.
Tragically, non-Muslims have been very influential in Arabian nationalist movements the oast century. Their project of secular states, of an Arabian revival, seems to have largely failed. A sad irony. Rivalled in irony perhaps only by Iraq, in which Christians enjoyed a reasonable status ten years ago, but which is now etnically cleansed of non-Muslims.
So it's not really "ethnic" cleansing, is it? It's religious cleansing. Sunnite Arabs killing Shi'ite Berbers, is that ethnic cleansing?In any case, don't be too fast in dismissing the situation as "largely failed". The politics of Nasser (which I guess you're aiming at) were largely impopular and did fail in the end, but it doesn't mean that the battle between the secularists and the wahhabists is now over. It's continuing, as it has been since thebeginning of the 20th century. And it's going on in Egypt as we speak. I don't think it's a very good idea to alienate secular Muslims (who may or may not regard themselves as secularist) by making sweeping statements about the diversity of the Islamic world, because you know what I'd like to see?
From Morocco to Afghanistan, I'd like to see western-style democracies with a clear seperation of church (mosque?) and state, where parliament is made up from Sunnites, Shi'ites, Kharijis, Copts, Druze, Zoroastrians, Jews and atheists too. I think there are some elements in Sunnite political theory that suggest some kind of seperation of church and state, and I think that the best we could do is to help the Muslim world fight their own demons, because that's basically what's going on. It's their battle, and the very worst action to take is to unite secularist and islamist Muslims against a common enemy. And I think we well know who that enemy would be.
If Ice-T had been Egyptian, do you think his song with Body Count would have been Coptic Killer, instead of Cop Killer?
Peope getting killed in a dictatorship. Who would've thought?
Who thould they should, it isn't just Egypt it's the whole Islamic world up to Indonesia. It's religious terror, and it's new.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
While a tragedy, it's not really new. I mean what do you want, the Pope to call another Crusade? Those didn't help the first time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Acknowedging it and putting pressure would be a good start, these acts are completely ignored by gutmensch media and EU governments, too busy crying over the PalestiniansQuote:
Originally Posted by Yoyoma1910
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
CNN coverage
NPR coverage
BBC Coverage
France 24 coverage
It was the top story on France 24's website. The other news sites had links from their front pages. It's being covered, and politicians are making statements. That's what those two groups do: Make coverage and make speeches.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoyoma1910
Coverage? It is covered. Action? I think not
Hosni Mubarak, whatever may be said of him ill or good, has been working to create an image of an Egypt that is stable and prosperous. I seriously doubt his government will do nothing about this.
Incidents are covered, not the structional nature of them reoccuring. Certainly not in the way other issues are highlighted. It really is new, while second rate citizens they were not unwelcome.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoyoma1910
I don't understand how it can be new if it's reoccuring.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
I mean in April of 2009 the government was killing off all the copt's pigs because of the fear of an epidemic.
And look, here's an article from 10 years ago:
World Ancient church struggles in Muslim Egypt
March 30, 2000
An excerpt from this CNN World article:
Quote:
Tensions between Muslims and Christians erupted into violence in early January in the southern Egyptian town of Kosheh, leaving 23 people mostly Christians dead. While most Egyptians, both Muslim and Christian, condemned the killings, the incident raised concern around the country.
... it is not Religious Intolerance... it is just Intolerance in general that is always the excuse and usually the reason for disagreement and bloodshed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherking
let's face it, father attacking the 57 year old dude that dates his daughter is a clear case of intolerance
the skinhead killing the ethopian for his i-pod is a clear case where atleast intolerance is used as an excuse for violence
the kenyans kicking out the white farmers is intolerance
sudan, egypt, afghanistan, iraq, israel, intolerance intolerance intolerance intolerance
spanish inquisition = intolerance
the list continues.
Not talking new when talking in 10 years, new as in 80 years or so, just a tiny part of history. Fact remains that things have changed, these communities are really old, they were never hunted down in such a way. Isn't really that much to ask to treat non-muslims as we treat muslims here. Because we treat them as equals we can demand that from them as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoyoma1910
About the pigs, that wasn't pretty, guess they really don't like pigs
Your examples are wide of the mark.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Stranger
When it is simple bigotry there are easier ways of dealing with the problems.
Once religion enters the equation logic and reason are sidelined because it becomes a matter of faith and belief. Think of it as a force multiplier.
They are pure and their god demands and rewards their acts against the evil unbelievers.
It is no longer a matter of individual beliefs but of a unified block up in arms and that will hear no argument to the contrary.
Fragony is wrong that it is new. For some years now Coptics have been kidnapped and either disappear or forced to convert.
So far the Egyptian government and police agencies have done little or nothing about it.
It is not just an Egyptian problem either. Look what happens to other faiths in other Islamic countries. Even in Turkey the pressure is mounting.
So far as I am aware the Pakistani Christian woman is still condemned to death for insulting Mohamed.
Her crime:
She pointed out that in her faith Jesus arose from the dead after three day but when Mohamed died he stayed dead.
This was the insult to Mohamed that brought the death penalty.
Evidently nonbelievers are not permitted to discuss religion without being subject to death but it is excepted that they can be beaten or otherwise coerced and forced into excepting Islam.
Because of this case it was thought that the blasphemy law might be relaxed but that brought huge protests and the threat of more violence...and you think it is simple intolerance?
The changes need to come from within Islam but so long as voices of reason are shouted down or those more moderate are afraid to speak out, to include governments, then it is not going to happen.
Secular government would help but most of these countries are afraid of such a move. That would at least afford all citizens equal protection under the law, but may do little to stem the violence.
its not off the mark. but you are right that this is what happens, but it happens because everyone is making that difference between intolerance and religious intolerance, even those who oppose to it... we shouldnt. we should treat it all the same way and simply put a stop to this as we wouldve have done if it was racial intolerance or whatever kind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherking
and then there is always the question how intolerant of intolerance can and must one be XD
let me not sideline this discussion. carry on.
As I said, new isn't just a few years, 80 of them or so
The first crusade was launched over similar issues. Forced conversion, murder of Christians, desiccation of shrines, and so on. While this was more the case of one regime perpetrating these acts of cruelty, rather than an entire faith, it did lead to a holey war. So it is a bit more than 80 years old. Lets hope we don’t find ourselves in another holey war...even though several have already declared it so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
It's "people getting whacked in dictatorships".Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
It's as old as the sun.
Egypt is a dictatorship. A majority spending time killing off minorities will have less time to rebel against the dictators rule, thus a dictator will allow it. This is anything but new, it happens from time to time in most dictatorships. What do you think "dictatorship" means? "happy happy fun time"?
That's my boy. :love:Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Here's a quick linky. Already nearly a decade old, and the probems have only intensified since then.
Quote:
Arabic-speaking Christians have been one of the main casualties of the destabilizing events of the twentieth century, and especially of the Western-created system of modern Arab states. This religious community found itself deeply immersed in a series of global changes that it could not influence, let alone shape.
We shall identify the major Christian groups in the Arab world, touch on their plight, and propose an agenda for their full integration into their own countries.
[...]
Egypt. Bonds of brotherhood and a strong sense of ethnic homogeneity and national identity brought Muslims and Copts together at the inception of modern Egyptian nationalism in the middle of the nineteenth century. However, under British occupation, these bonds slowly eroded. In 1911, for example, the organizers of a Coptic conference demanded equality with their Muslim compatriots (such as the recognition of Sunday as a holiday, government spending on Coptic schools, and including Coptic deputies in the national parliament). Unfortunately, these basic Coptic demands fell on deaf Muslim ears. While participation in national politics and preoccupation with getting rid of the British occupying power overshadowed religious differences and inequality, the rise of Islamism in Egypt and the writings of prominent Islamist thinkers who spoke negatively about Christianity (such as Sayyid Qutb) antagonized the Copts, who saw in this the roots of political vegetation and second class citizenship.
The arrival of Anwar as-Sadat to the presidency following the death of Gamal Abdel Nasser in 1970 coincided with the ordination of the dynamic and charismatic Pope Shenouda III as the 117th successor to St. Mark a year later. The Islamist policies of Anwar as-Sadat antagonized the Copts and exacerbated religious tensions that continue to the present. In Egypt, a low intensity assault against Copts has been advancing for the past thirty years. Islamists equipped with medieval religious zeal (such as jihad) and coming from marginalized and poverty-stricken societal strata, have been involved in frequent bloody attacks against their Christian compatriots. The most recent major attack occurred in January 2000 in the village of Al-Kosheh in southern Egypt, in which twenty Copts lost their lives.
http://www.meforum.org/4/arab-christians-as-symbol
It has nothing to do with Egypt being a dictatorship, you probably know that but just can't help yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
It is because they... are... Muslim!!!?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
To be fair, the phenomenon to which Hortore alludes is a valid point regarding dictatorships. Whether explicitly cultivated as in the Nazis or semi-happenstance as were the periodic Tsarist pogroms against Russian Jews, or the Japanese treatment of Koreans between 1925 and 1945, a dictatorship DOES benefit from having an out-group to pick on. This lets the lower echelon vent frustrations without endangering the elite. The concept is an old one, and is simply a variant on the circum side of the panem et circum recipe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Doesn't make these episodes in Egypt any less "muslim v. non-muslim" but is worthy of factoring in when analyzing.
Well islamic terrorism is obviously done by muslims, incredible as that may seem to leftist people. But when you really think about it it isn't that illogical. I understand that that can't be right so it must be wrong nononoNO hands -> ears LALALALAAQuote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
What's your solution to this Islamist intolerance, Fragony ?
Don't got one, who does?Quote:
Originally Posted by LeftEyeNine
Some things have been done to make Islam less intolerant, such as female Imans in places such as Morocco.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeftEyeNine
Some of the harder ones would be to change rules on Muslims who change religion. If more muslim countries allowed other Churches to be built this would also help breed mutual tolerance.
~:smoking:
So what makes you different from a Crusader ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Well I detest all religion first of all, did I say anything about Invading Egypt. What we can do is putting pressure on country's like Egypt and Syria (and your own Turkey to a lesser extend) to protect their minority's better.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeftEyeNine
Yeah, like in Iran, where minorities are protected in the constitution and are represented in parliament. Or wasn't that what you had in mind?
That's no different in Egypt, but authorities are kinda looking the other way when koptics are harrassed (or participating). Iran is at least fair in being a screwed up place for everybody.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hax
Really? Then why did we go into Bosnia? Kosovo? Why did we stop Hitler? What goes on in Europe is the business of Europeans, right? Screw those stupid Jews and Poles, it is their problem, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
You somehow seem Islamophobic rather than someone having issues with the religion concept itself. My bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Well islamism is worse, something islamophiles will never accept. Can't deny this isn't just happening in Egypt. But I got no holy missionQuote:
Originally Posted by LeftEyeNine
Well, it is not "islamophile" not to constantly rag on a group of people, even though there is a sizable portion of that population who are civil and respectable, just like everyone else non-Muslim.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
And there especially is no need to painfully point that out every time when things aren't 100% okQuote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
It just seems lost on a few people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Poloctial corectness sucks.
The backroom has always been a terrible cesspool of backwardness, and i don't need to point out how insidious some posters are about Islam/Muslims, this isn't about religion, or ethnicity, its a whole slew of complications (and a very long story to boot) but simply put, its primarily government corruption and general unrest in the population. This isn't in a long line of historical rivalry or other BS, its a recent developement.
Thought that is what I saidQuote:
Originally Posted by Leet Eriksson
That wasn't aimed at you, i just read the backroom and the amount of "expert" opinions and poorly cherrypicked arguments pretty much made my blood boil at this complete ignorance on the subject matter, it bears repeating since some people do actually live on mars you see.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Thank you for the wisdom, the logic, and all the sources. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Leet Eriksson
Yeah that happens with any semitic religion out there. Judaism runs over children with tanks or Pope sees it fit to march thousands to death. All "X is screwed" is relative to the age you happen to live, or simply the glasses you look from behind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Leet Eriksson doesn't have to prove his expertness here as he is a well-respected and well-known expert on middle-eastern affairs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuk
What you're doing is akin to questioning that Sarah Palin knows anything about being a governor in Alaska. ~;)
See and this is how it's done, the 3 most important islamic organisations in Dutchieland volunteered to arrange security to guard our coptic churches that are also on the hitlist of hatebeards. That isn't just a nice gesture it also is a really brave one. Not too little, not too late, chapeau.
A laudable gesture. BUT if anything goes wrong, it could turn nasty very quickly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
~:smoking:
These organisations who volunteered to protect the copts will be attacked first by these bearded idiots, terrorism has it's own logic. It's really brave what they did. Hope the media isn't going to make too much of a point out of itQuote:
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
If the Terrorists are not idiots they'll leave the volunteer security alone and attack the Copts. If they really are being nasty they'll publicly thank those supposed to be defending the Copts for their support. Even if it's not true it'll be something of a PR disaster.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
~:smoking:
They would achieve nothing by that you don't understand them, a public statement has been made, so they will have to make one as well, otherwise it looks like they are losing their grip on the faithfull, dissent is a much bigger crimeQuote:
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
See, an imam that supports al-Qaeda might say something along the lines of; "Due to the subservience of these pseudo-Muslims they have allied themselves with the Great and Little Satans and therefor are worse than kafirun, they are apostates and deserve the death" at the Friday Congregational Prayer to a couple of Afghani or Saudi hillbillies who keep four wives locked up in a cupboard and discuss the exact number of hairs in Muhammad's beard and occasionally (misquote) ahadith or Qur'anic verses.Quote:
These organisations who volunteered to protect the copts will be attacked first by these bearded idiots, terrorism has it's own logic. It's really brave what they did. Hope the media isn't going to make too much of a point out of it
I totally agree that they did the right thing, and even though the Coptic churches has rejected their help (although politely), this is certainly a good step, in the right direction. I don't think it's the first time the (silent?) majority speaks out, but this is certainly one of the first time the press actually picked it up quite well. Good job.
Meh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
I respect their intention. Although I do not think every Muslim has to speak out every time some other Muslim somewhere around the world commits a crime.
But the result of all this is that foreign battles, concepts, divides are imported. Suddenly Europe is a battlefield between Christian and Islamic Egyptians, or rather between Islamic moderates and extremists. Not just physically, but also metally, politically. Pfff.....
It is not up to Islamic militias to protect churches, even if well intended. It is not up to them to decide who gets targeted by terror and who doesn't. If a Muslim wishes to protect his European society from Islamic terrorism, then he can join the police or the armed forces. This is the nature of 'integration'.
I kinda accepted that it will be difficult
Honestly, I'd like to be introduced to this respectable population. For what I've seen in France, they make up what? 10% of the muslim population...Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
Personal observation is not the same thing as truthful observation.Quote:
For what I've seen in France
Compared to the ethnic French population, where the respectable part is like 5% population, I'd say that's a good statistic....Quote:
Originally Posted by Meneldil
Just thought I'd throw this out there...
Egyptian Muslims act as human shields for Coptic mass
Awesome, stick it to the radicals
They look like nice respectful Muslim members of the community. Any issues against those, Meneldil?
i don't imagine there would be given the Mel was referring to france and not egypt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
I can't seriously reply to this comment, without making 101 comments about 'France' in jest, akin to HoreTores'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Furunculus
Well Furunculus made a fair point. The radical Islam that tends to emerge in second generation immigrants in western Europe is a whole different matter from the makeup of religious views within Islam in its historic heartlands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
Yeah that's true sadly. But at least here the ones who want to make the best out of it are getting increasingly vocal, Islamism is losing and badly. If I would do my best positive I'd say that the Islam is having it's enlightment as we speak and that it's only going to be slightly worse before things get better, Africa is screwed as always thoughQuote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr
*Insert hug smiley here*Quote:
Yeah that's true sadly. But at least here the ones who want to make the best out of it are getting increasingly vocal, Islamism is losing and badly. If I would do my best positive I'd say that the Islam is having it's enlightment as we speak and that it's only going to be slightly worse before things get better, Africa is screwed as always though
So far no-one in europe has been put in camps yet either. Although we have gone as far as to put segments of the population under close watch for no reason other than their parentage/religion.
It's called screening. It's one of those damned if you do damned if you don't situations. If you want to be colour / age / gender blind you then end up wasting a vast amount of time and energy arresting 8 year olds / 90 year olds just to ensure that everyone is being equally treated. If you try to go for a subgroup based on age, gender, poverty level, education, geographical location, religion you will get accused of an -ism of one sort or other.Quote:
Originally Posted by alh_p
My father in the 1970's was often picked "randomly" for drugs searches as he had long hair and a beared (still does). He did ineffectually ague that drug smugglers might look less obviously like a hippie, but to no avail (hippies and biology PhDs do look very similar).
~:smoking:
You never know man, maybe he took a minor in botany, duuude.Quote:
(hippies and biology PhDs do look very similar).
That's not quite how I'd describe those security cameras put up in Birmingham somewhere, but anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
Somebody got to keep a close watch on that bloody foreigner Houllier...Quote:
Originally Posted by alh_p