Want a Spanish Baby? Dial 1-800-PRIEST

No, this is not another thread about Catholic pedo rape camps. This is about cradle snatching and child trafficking.

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The victims of a network of doctors and nurses who allegedly stole babies in Spanish hospitals and sold them for adoption today called on the country's attorney general to open an investigation.
The families of 261 babies who disappeared in Spanish hospitals over five decades presented their case to the attorney general's office in Madrid, including evidence from nurses and people who admitted illegally adopting babies.

What started as a system for taking children away from families deemed to be politically dangerous to the regime of General Francisco Franco became an illicit business that continued into the 1980s or later, a campaign group has claimed.

Doctors, nurses, nuns and priests are all suspected of forming part of an organised network that told mothers their children had died during, or straight after, birth. Campaigners said they believed many thousands of cases of stolen babies would eventually come to light.
"The father of a friend of mine admitted to him that both he and I had been bought from a priest and a nun from Zaragoza after being born in the Miguel Servet hospital," Antonio Barroso, who discovered four years ago that he was adopted, said.

DNA tests have proved that the people who raised him were not his real parents. Enrique Vila, a lawyer who represents the National Association of Irregular Adoptions, said: "There are cases that are accompanied by proof in the form of DNA tests and others that are simply mothers who suspect that their babies were stolen.

"We think it was an organised mafia which continued to operate even after the Francoist laws allowing the children of Republican mothers to be given away had been changed."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...babies-network

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Oh well, the Islamo-mafia strong men in Kosovo kill people to trade their kidneys. The Catholo-mafia strong men in Spain leave their victims alive, to sell them whole. So I guess it could be worse.

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It is well documented that in the immediate wake of Spain's 1936-39 civil war, babies and children were taken away from women who supported the government, or Republican side, that was defeated by the right wing forces of Gen. Francisco Franco. Investigating magistrate Baltasar Garzon has put the figure at 30,000.

But Mr. Vila said this politically motivated punishment eventually transformed purely into a moneymaking scheme that lasted well past Spain's return to democracy in 1978, three years after Franco's death, and until well into the 1990s.

Mr. Vila said there was more or less a nationwide network behind it, involving doctors, nurses, midwives, nuns and intermediaries that would find children for couples that wanted them.
“There were isolated groups but necessarily they had to know each other. When a woman found parents who wanted to adopt a baby, she knew what clinics to call all around Spain to get that child,” Mr. Vila told a news conference attended by hundreds of members of the ANADIR association.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...18/?cmpid=rss1

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Curse Franco. Curse the Catholic Church. Curse their mutual stranglehold over Spain.

Wow, just wow. Could anything possibly be a more vile organisation than the catholic church. Scuzi @ catholic members for saying so

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Originally Posted by Fragony

a more vile organisation than the catholic church.

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The church in Spain had/(has?) a long history of propping up the regime at the expense of spanish peasants (with the exception of e.g. Navarra). I'd recommend Gerarld Brenan's "the Spanish Labyrinthe" -not on this particular case but the civil war and its historical context.

The same also happened in Chila and I believe in Argentina too.

Deeply religious catholic leaders seems to have a thing for it....

The Phone # didn't work. Are you sure it's right?

Try www.hotmamacitas.com

edit: ooh, that just made itself a hotlink - WARNING: I have no real idea if that is even a proper domain. OOps.

:rolleyes:

http://i53.tinypic.com/332tch0.gif

This is bad, real bad, Michael Jackson

Well on the one hand: Franco, what else? Spain has a lot of internal clearing and cleaning to do before it will have fully come to terms with Franco, just like Russia's involvement with the USSR is still ongoing.

On the other hand, Reenk, you have to admit that the Catholic church has something of a track record when it comes to less than unsavoury conduct and that when it comes to power hungry clergy acting well outside of their “jurisdiction” nobody has got anything on the Spanish and Italian branches of the Catholic church. It's rather perverse.

Although we should probably concede here that with the host of organisations affiliated with some Catholic church or another this is somewhat to be expected: there's simple a broad scope for incidents to happen or misconduct to go on unchecked and unchallenged and it all rubs off on the Catholic church as a whole.

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Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios

On the other hand, Reenk, you have to admit that the Catholic church has something of a track record when it comes to less than unsavoury conduct and that when it comes to power hungry clergy acting well outside of their “jurisdiction” nobody has got anything on the Spanish and Italian branches of the Catholic church. It's rather perverse.

Although we should probably concede here that with the host of organisations affiliated with some Catholic church or another this is somewhat to be expected: there's simple a broad scope for incidents to happen or misconduct to go on unchecked and unchallenged and it all rubs off on the Catholic church as a whole.

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I don't really have a problem admitting that at all Tellos. Also, your post is one that merits a serious response than those that precede it. But it always seems there are some on the Org who can't pass up a good Church bashing; it makes their sincerity of concern for victims called severely into question.

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Originally Posted by Reenk Roink

I don't really have a problem admitting that at all Tellos. Also, your post is one that merits a serious response than those that precede it. But it always seems there are some on the Org who can't pass up a good Church bashing; it makes their sincerity of concern for victims called severely into question.

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The victims that are just an inconvenience to the church, those ones? There is no regret just damage control, all that matters to the church is the church. These boy-pussy lovers haven't been bashed nearly enough and I'm not stopping. Still claiming to be teh moral authority all the while when having an entire boychoir strapped up in their terror-dungeon. I dont think they really get it

If this had been a feature of a few socialist/muslim/hindu/monarchist/whatever states, then we'd all do a "good socialist/muslim/hindu/monarchist/whatever bashing". We're not giving the catholic church a harder time than anyone else, we're giving the catholic church the same treatment we would give everyone else.

Because that is the very definition of respect. Not doing so means treating the catholic church like its a spoiled kindergarden brat.

The fact of the matter is that the Catholic church in Spain has craved social control to the extent that they have not been able to tolerate opposing views. and this has gone so far that they have stolen babies over a fear that they will end up with the wrong views. I'm sure the priests in question believed they were doing good, that they saved people from the eternal damnation that leftist views would bring. But this does not excuse their actions, most offenders believe that their crimes are justified and good. Josef Fritzl, for example, did believe that his actions saved his daughter from a horrible life of sin and evil.

The problem here is systematical; when opposition to the catholic church means eternal damnation, even the most vile acts becomes acceptable as long as it means saving souls.

Same treatment? No we don't, if you are honest with yourself you would agree with that. For every bad word about islam there are a thousand apologists

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Same treatment? No we don't, if you are honest with yourself you would agree with that. For every bad word about islam there are a thousand apologists

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....And the catholic church doesn't have a thousand apologisers...?

Guys stop Catholic-bashing I can't believe it when people think its OK to do that.

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Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr

Guys stop Catholic-bashing I can't believe it when people think its OK to do that.

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....but it's ok to "bash" liberals, socialists and nationalists, right?

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

....but it's ok to "bash" liberals, socialists and nationalists, right?

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But those are just beliefs, the Catholic Church is an institution, and one that has made many great contributions to society throughout its long and pround history.

The hate shown towards Catholicism in this thread is ridiculous, shame upon you!

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Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr

But those are just beliefs, the Catholic Church is an institution, and one that has made many great contributions to society throughout its long and pround history.

The hate shown towards Catholicism in this thread is ridiculous, shame upon you!

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You had me there for a second, Rhy.... ~;)

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

If this had been a feature of a few socialist/muslim/hindu/monarchist/whatever states, then we'd all do a "good socialist/muslim/hindu/monarchist/whatever bashing".

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Damn, quite a problem the people referred to as "we" got there then. But of course, haters gonna hate.

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Originally Posted by Horetore

Because that is the very definition of respect.

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rofl :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Horetore

The fact of the matter is that the Catholic church in Spain has craved social control to the extent that they have not been able to tolerate opposing views. and this has gone so far that they have stolen babies over a fear that they will end up with the wrong views. I'm sure the priests in question believed they were doing good, that they saved people from the eternal damnation that leftist views would bring. But this does not excuse their actions, most offenders believe that their crimes are justified and good. Josef Fritzl, for example, did believe that his actions saved his daughter from a horrible life of sin and evil.

The problem here is systematical; when opposition to the catholic church means eternal damnation, even the most vile acts becomes acceptable as long as it means saving souls.

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Actually, fair enough here. Somewhat annoyingly melodramatic for sure, and I'm sure the CC side of the story needs to be told, but other than that, is it the 2nd good post in this thread (besides mine of course :smug:)?

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

....And the catholic church doesn't have a thousand apologisers...?

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Yes but they are all catholics, ever considered pointing out that there are also imams that like all that when someone bashes the catholic church?

Check your outrage meter;
- catholics are the scum of the earth
- muslims are the scum of the earth
- blacks are the scum of the earth
- chinese are the scum of the earth

Which one do you notice first

Catholics, since I start reading from the top instead of in the middle or from the bottom.

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Originally Posted by Reenk Roink

I don't really have a problem admitting that at all Tellos. Also, your post is one that merits a serious response than those that precede it. But it always seems there are some on the Org who can't pass up a good Church bashing; it makes their sincerity of concern for victims called severely into question.

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I see.

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Doctors, nurses, nuns and priests are all suspected of having lied to parents. Spanish journalists investigating the racket have discovered a baby’s corpse in a fridge at a Madrid clinic at the centre of the allegations. It is feared dead babies were kept to show parents to prove their own child had died.

Enrique Vila, a lawyer representing campaign group the National Association of Irregular Adoptions, said it had uncovered cases of illegal adoptions in Spain which have been confirmed by DNA tests.
He said: “We think it was an organised mafia.”
Since the scandal came to light, workers at an undertaker’s office in Malaga have admitted burying empty children’s coffins delivered from a nearby clinic.

Read more: http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/...#ixzz1CXbVUcAm

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Parents are told their babies have died. They either see no corpse, or, even more macabre, in one clinic are shown a baby corpse which is kept for this specific purpose in the clinic's fridge. The nuns steal the live baby, the priest organises a burial, using an empty coffin to con the parents.


May I suggest you send your infantile pictures and 'haters will be haters' commentary directly to the inconsolable parents? You can find them here, they have their own website: http://anadir.es/

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Parents are told their babies have died. They either see no corpse, or, even more macabre, in one clinic are shown a baby corpse which is kept for this specific purpose in the clinic's fridge. The nuns steal the live baby, the priest organises a burial, using an empty coffin to con the parents.

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Are you even able to grasp the critical problem with your posts? Hell, do you even read what you post?

From what you explicitly quoted:

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Doctors, nurses, nuns and priests are all suspected of having lied to parents.

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From the article itself:

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Instead they were smuggled out of the hospitals by doctors, administrators and even nuns before being sold off to childless couples for large sums of money.

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and

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Since the scandal came to light, workers at an undertaker’s office in Malaga have admitted burying empty children’s coffins delivered from a nearby clinic.

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Bold emphasis mine.

"Curse the medical establishment. Curse their mutual stranglehold over Spain."

Better call 1-800 GRAVEDIGGER now.

Give me a freakin' break. :rolleyes:

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May I suggest you send your infantile pictures and 'haters will be haters' commentary directly to the inconsolable parents? You can find them here, they have their own website: http://anadir.es/

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I don't buy your angst act one bit here. Because even if it is genuine, it is obviously completely directed at the Church (oh, and Franco), ignoring everything else. And before you try with the weaselly equivocation of your own self and the victims in this tragedy, I certainly am not calling them haters, I'm calling you one.

As for hating on me, I have one for that too.

https://i52.tinypic.com/339pwnr.jpg

Are you trying to run this thread into the ground with barrages of snide insults and infantile pictures Reenk?


If you can't deal with criticism of the church, then don't read these threads.

What's wrong with being a hater, I am perfectly ok with being one. Screw the church, preferably hard deep and unsafe

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Originally Posted by alh_p

The church in Spain had/(has?) a long history of propping up the regime at the expense of spanish

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You can make that 'has' a long history. Present tense. The battle is still on. To the church it is 1936 forever, they can't let go and won't accept that Spain has moved on.


In the last election in 2008, Rome waged a sustained, concerted effort to oust the then Spanish government:

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Spanish PM José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero is meeting today with a Vatican representative to protest the Catholic Church's call for voters to oust his Socialist party in the March 9 general election. Zapatero was infuriated by bishops' publication of "moral guidance," calling on parishioners to vote out the government and effectively endorsing the conservative opposition, the Times of London reports.

Zapatero's government has moved to legalize gay marriage, relax laws on divorce, and end compulsory religious education in schools—all of which have drawn the Church's ire. Bishops also castigated Zapatero for negotiating with Basque separatists after supporting an earlier conservative effort. The government responded that the bishops want a return to Franco's fascist era—which the Church strongly supported.
http://www.newser.com/story/19038/sp...-election.html

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The church sees it differently, as always it thinks of itself as persecuted. All the more reason then for Rome to try to regain its lost stranglehold over Spain. Or, as Ratinger put it, to 'make Spain a particular focus of a new Vatican effort to fight secular trends worldwide'.

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SANTIAGO DE COMPOSTELA, Spain — Pope Benedict XVI criticized an "aggressive" anti-church sentiment in Spain that he said was reminiscent of the country's bloody civil war era as he began a two-day visit Saturday to rekindle the faith.

[...]

"In Spain, a strong, aggressive lay mentality, an anticlericalism and secularization has been born as we experienced in the 1930's," Benedict told reporters.
The reference surprised Spaniards, with Cadena SER network saying: "The Pope compares today's Spain with the Republic."

The pope said Spain was a particular focus of a new Vatican effort to fight secular trends worldwide since Spain had played such an important role in reviving Christianity in centuries past. He urged Europe as a whole to rediscover its Christian roots.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/1..._n_779916.html

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The church will not sleep. It will not let go. Ridiculously, in 2011 the Spanish republic [edit: quite the revealing mistake. It should of course be 'Spanish monarchy'] must still be protected against the meddlesome Cartholofascists. :wall:


Let us not forget the clear message of the church for the victims of paedophile abuse. At the height of the crisis last year, Ratzinger pulled the middle finger at the victims. Last year, at the height of the crisis, the world was expecting the pope to issue an apology, a statement of regret. Instead Ratzinger startled the world by beatifying hundreds of clergymen involved in the Spanish civil war.

The message was clear and threefold:
1) Rome considers itself above criticism, impervious to it. Rome decides who or what is discussed.
2) Rome does not in the least regret its history in Spain, on the contrary. Rome made clear that for the church the battle over Spain is very much still on.
3) Rome showed it will do to the abused children what it did to democracy in Spain: when given the chance, crush them mercilessly.

The sexual abuses in the church, Franco, and the kidnappings of tens of thousands of babies in Spain were thus linked by the church itself. The church showed that a child is not its own master, does not decide its own fate. A priest has ultimate decisive power over a child. Because not this life, but the next is the more important one, and the priest is the guardian in matters pertaining to the next life, his parents the guardian only for this one. The church decides what is best for a child, not the parents or the child itself.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

What's wrong with being a hater, I am perfectly ok with being one. Screw the church, preferably hard deep and unsafe

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Did I mention yet that many robbed children were taken by the church itself and raised into priests?

Sadly, it is a self-sustaining system. Children are robbed. Then they are hidden away from outside influences. They are beaten, raped and indoctrinated into ultra-Catholic beliefs. Then they are ordained as priests, the new generation. Their very identities and childhood have been stolen. Small wonder they are unable to love children in a normal way. And so the madnes carries on.

Mind that under Franco 'only' 30000 children were stolen. After his death, when it was no longer official government policy to have the church abduct children, the Church and other mafia carried on the scheme privately. Total estimates of abducted Spanish children range between 200.000 to 600.000. :dizzy2:

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Thousands of babies were stolen from hospitals and clinics throughout Spain in the 1970s and 80s, and only recently has the extent of this massive crime come to light. Mothers up and down the country were told their new born babies had died, while nuns, priests and doctors were complicit in then selling those babies on to childless couples. Most babies were sold for around 120,000 pesetas which is a mere €750 in today's money. In those days that was enough to buy a house.

Recent reports put the stolen babies figure at a massive 600,000.
Thanks to DNA testing, many of the those children are now aware of their background and 235,000 denuncias have been lodged with the courts.

THE CASES OUTLINED HERE ARE NOT THE SAME AS THE FRANCO STOLEN BABIES SCANDAL, as many of the newer cases happened after 1975 when Franco ceased to be in power.
Many parents are still looking for their children, and many children are still looking for the real parents, while the Catholic church is blocking their efforts.
http://hubpages.com/hub/Spains-Stolen-Babies

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kw5L...ayer_embedded#

What bothers me most is that they feel they are the ones being mistreated. They take their holyness for granted

winner of cartoon of the year award here in Dutchland http://digitaleeditie.nrc.nl/NH/2011...e5_2_large.jpg

tasteless sure, but hey

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Are you trying to run this thread into the ground with barrages of snide insults and infantile pictures Reenk?

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Do you actually have the groundless assumption that your postings in this thread are of a higher status/ affectation than actually contained? That they actually deserve any more 'respect' than I have given? :no:

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If you can't deal with criticism of the church, then don't read these threads.

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I can deal with criticism of the Church just fine. I generally ignore it, there are far more capable responders than me willing to devote the time and effort required. At that point I will just cite them or their works.

Bashing the church on the other hand, I certainly like to give back. But if you are really bothered by my presence, I will leave you to fling about in the mud by yourself.

Feel free to not only grossly oversimplify the blame for this situation, but grossly overpaint the one being blamed. :rolleyes:

...Man I miss John Paul II.

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Originally Posted by Greyblades

...Man I miss John Paul II.

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JPII certainly had more redeeming qualities than God's Rottweiler Ratzinger. Even so, JPII was an old man, he slept while both the sexual abuse case and the cradle snatching scandal went on.
And that's the friendly take. The other story is that of JPII not sleeping at all, but remaining a grand strategist for whom the spread of Catholicism overrides any moral consideration.


For example:

https://img641.imageshack.us/img641/3663/jpmf.jpg

Here is JPII giving his blessing to Marcial Maciel, founder of Christ's Legionaries, during a special audience the pontiff granted, at the Vatican, in 2004.

Christ's Legionaries are a massive organisation. There are 1,000 Legion priests in 22 countries and over 2,500 seminarians. They run very traditional Catholic schools and charities with its lay movement, Regnum Christi, who has about 70,000 members (competing with Opus Dei 80,000 members). Marcial Maciel is also a prodigous fundraiser, collecting $650 million annually. Hence he was blessed by John Paul.

Marcial Maciel is also a drug addict, serial rapist, and the father of several children by at least two women. He even anally raped his own biological son. Naturally, one need have little illusion about the goings on in the global seminaries chain this serial rapist founded. A thousand priests, presented with tens of thousands of little boys on a silver platter, while pious or cretinous believers pay them $650 million dollar a year.

So much money, that John Paul - ever the practical pope - protected this man to the last, kept heaping praise and blessing upon him. Maciel remained a man whom John Paul much admired, despite his being perfectly aware of the 'sinful' side of this incestuous paedophile.

That's John Paul for you.

~~o~~o~~<<oOo>>~~o~~o~~

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You are talking bollox, Louis.

Surely the above can't be true?

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I am most serious. Here is the scathing portrait of this wicked man as presented by the National Catholic Reporter itself: NCR

Maciel secured scholarships for his seminarians in Spain from the Franco government. “We were like an army,
the army of Jesus Christ,” recalled Alejandro Espinosa, the author of a searing memoir, El
Legionario, a best-seller in Mexico.

By the 1950s Maciel had a seminary in Rome. Cultivating wealthy supporters, he also built Our
Lady of Guadalupe Basilica in Rome, honoring Mexico’s patron saint. But in 1956 Pope Pius XII
removed him as the Legion’s director when Maciel was hospitalized for morphine addiction.
Seminarians who had taken vows never to speak ill of Maciel defended him in a Vatican
investigation into his secret life. Says Juan Vaca, now a psychology professor in Long Island,
N.Y.: “I lied.” From age 12 to 24, Vaca, in what he termed a twisted psychosexual relationship
with Maciel, “loved the figure of the founder, the priest … not the predator.”

Another victim, Jose Barba, now a college professor in Mexico City said: “We all lied.” Barba
earned a doctorate in Latin American studies at Harvard after leaving the Legion in 1962. “I said
simply that he was a saint … as I had been taught.”

In the interregnum between Pius XII’s death and the election of Pope John XXIII, Cardinal
Clemente Micara, the vicar of Rome, re-instated Maciel, although under Vatican rules he lacked
the authority to do so.

Defended by his victims, Maciel had a protective wall in the secret vows the boys took never to
criticize any superior. A Legion mantra, “lost vocation, sure damnation” sent certain of his victims
into therapy in later life. The early victims reconnected with one another slowly, over many years.

One of the founding texts of the religious order this man founded in between anally raping his biological son, was the 1959 book El salterio de mis días. I tells the authobiographical story of the many persecutions this poor man has had to endure. The persecutions served as an inspiration to his Catholic followers everywhere.
However, in 2010 the Vatican in 2010 finally admitted what desperate Spanish had claimed all along. Namely, that the entire book was plagiarised from the posthumously published memoirs in 1956 of a Spanish politician. A politician who died in 1943, as a victim of persectuion by Franco and the church.

So not only did they murder this politician, they then stole his memoirs and presented his story of persecution as their own. This then became the holy book of an ultra-catholic order founded by a serial rapist, which made so much money the founding priest could continue anally raping his own son with the continued blessing and protection to the last by John Paul II.

The depravity of the Vatican is unlimited.

@ Louis

Do you see this as part of a Papal Conspiracy?

I am not a friend of The Church, or religion in general for that matter but I don’t see this issue as purely a church created problem.

I won’t say that pedophiles and the depraved have not put on a cloak to hide within the church and have some institutional protection.

But do you think that every Pope from 1939 until today has been working to further the aims of these people?

Sorry. Quite upset. Cannot reply at the present time.

Well, it's not exactly news to me.

Some years ago a fellow christian gave me some of these little booklets that is for non-christians to show them how evil the world is and help them accept Jesus as their saviour.
One of them said that there were two catholic cloisters, one for nuns, one for monks, between them a secret underground tunnel was found which contained the dead bodies of many babies.
I haven't verified the story back then and have neither any recollection of the details nor the booklet anymore, but perhaps someone else knows more about this?

My parents have also raised me with great suspicion towards the catholic church and especially the vatican (not so much towards the common believer), my dad firmly believes that the 30-day-pope or what he's called was killed by the vatican because he didn't exactly share their ideals as they have been brought up in this thread.

And then there's a host of problems most evangelical christians and protestants see with the whole saint worship etc., without wanting to troll anyone but the belief is that the devil would want people to worship anyone other than God with the goal to lure people away from God.
I haven't put a lot of energy into researching and verifying these things but the catholic church is an institution I wouldn't miss at all I must say.
There are indeed some individuals that have done a lot of good in the name of the Catholic Church but IMO they were good people who had no idea about the atrocities their organization committed at the higher levels and it doesn't excuse the behaviour of the leadership either. :shrug:

How 1 billion people still follow such a corrupt and moraly bankrupt organazation is beyond my chomprehension.

If this was any other government or company (perhaps mafia is a more apt term) there would be riots in the streets and a shake up at the top.

Instead all we get is a bunch of half hearted aplogies from old men who make a living off of little old ladies. Clearly not concerend with how they will be judged, I guess when you are a man of the cloth you are beyond reproach

Worshipping saints is idolatry, and is pretty clearly a no-no.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

Worshipping saints is idolatry, and is pretty clearly a no-no.

~:smoking:

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Being a non-believer, do you actually care about that stuff in the slightest?

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Being a non-believer, do you actually care about that stuff in the slightest?

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Sort of. If people can believe this, it opens the floodgates for other insane things that might affect me. Kissing old pictures might not be a problem, hacking me to death because I don't would be.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

Sort of. If people can believe this, it opens the floodgates for other insane things that might affect me. Kissing old pictures might not be a problem, hacking me to death because I don't would be.

~:smoking:

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So telling a billion people they are idolaters is the safe way out?

:laugh4:


no, nobody’s been hacked to death for anything like that before have they?:confused:

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Originally Posted by Fisherking

no, nobody’s been hacked to death for anything like that before have they?:confused:

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Is this supposed to be sarcastic? People have in droves.

~:smoking:

yes

In fairness, you're more likely to face reprisals for kissing an icon by an angry Proddy than you are by a Catholic for not kissing one. Cos we Proddies are crazy!