Any advce for Roman buildings? Economy, culture penalty etc

Anyone got any tips for what buildings to go for as Romans? Browsing my options, there's not much that screams "build me!" (except the mine at Rhegion, that's pretty defeaning :laugh4:). Most things seem to give happiness or related bonuses. The economic ones (forum, ports) don't seem to give very large project increases in income for their high cost, but maybe given that the game is so long, they are worth it. I may be missing some subtleties - for example, with traits.

Also, does anyone know which building types (if any) incurr culture penalties? I am having trouble keeping Taras from the "red face" warning - in part due to culture and in part due to unrest. I guess I should just bite the bullet and hire a client ruler, but I wonder if upgrading any buildings would help reduce the culture penalty (the governor's palace has been upgraded).

I think the Governors building, markets, barracks, temples, garrisons, sanitation and entertainment buildings cause culture penalties. I think roads, mines, ports/docks and farms don't cause it. But I'm not confident, hopefully someone who's certain can jump in.

EDIT: Also for roleplaying purposes, when I take a foreign city I normally destory all buildings in the city. Seems to eliminate culture penalty as, well, nothing cultured is left.

As I've understood it, the governor building creates the most culture, all others have an equal value. I could be wrong though.

The biggest challenge in this game is economy. That's even true for the Romani in the beginning. So, this should be a priority. Roads and markets. Go for paved roads as soon as possible, gives increased trade, faster movement, plus a law bonus. Always good. Your starting cities have good enough ports for now, most of your first conquests as well. Upgrades here can wait, especially those that cost 64 000 mnai and take 35 turns to build, of course. Then of course, getting a barrack or two up to level five is nice. Takes time as well as money, though. More people is good, health must be seen to. Then there's keeping your people happy... I generally fall into a pattern here. Money, people, military. More or less that order.

Oh, and education for your FM's, in Roma in particular.

As for any faction, I've found gov 4, followed by all buildings available, followed by gov 1 is the best way to gradually hv an happy and fruitful province...

No temples or colleges of the Augeres (sp?), as they will turn your family members into drunken fools...

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Originally Posted by Jaertecken

No temples or colleges of the Augeres (sp?), as they will turn your family members into drunken fools...

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So will temples to Vesta, but that also gives your spies and assassins lots of good ancilliaries. Temples to Minerva gives good ancilliaries to FM's for governing mining provinces. Finding out little stuff like that is always fun. :)

If you're having trouble keeping Rhegion out of the red, are you sure you built a government there? Just asking, since it seems like you're new to EB and that's a mistake beginners often make. -M

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Originally Posted by Mulceber

If you're having trouble keeping Rhegion out of the red, are you sure you built a government there? Just asking, since it seems like you're new to EB and that's a mistake beginners often make. -M

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Taras is the one causing me concern at the moment; Rhegion I've just conquered. I'm following elements of QuintusSertorius's "true Roman" guide so I gave them both Type IV governments. Taras has quite a large population and I'm only keeping it in check with low taxes, so I fear I am just postponing the issue (the population growth breeding squalor). I thought the unrest in Taras would die down quite quickly as it seems to do in other TW titles, but it's quite persistent (about -35% unrest, -30% culture). I've dabbled with the mod since it first came out, so I have a basic understanding of it but am aware there's lots of things going on "under the hood" that I am unfamiliar with.

My rule of thumb is to pacify a settlement first, then focus on getting the taxes as high as they will go by adding law&order buildings and also basic barracks. Ideally get the taxes so high the population growth is about 0% but the population stays happy. Temples are really, really useful here, as are garrisons. Then, focus on trade and mining and upgrades of various sorts.

I make my decision on what to build now based on budget concerns: build the cheapest thing that will advance the settlement the most according to this overall strategy, with some exceptions for border regions or major recruitment centers. Farms and estates are to be avoided, only do them in regions where you feel confident their acceleration of population growth (and in case of estates the law&order penalty) do not threaten the stability.

Ports'n'farms :D
and a tiny bit of market... that the economics :)

as for the culture penalty, because everything about the statistics are in percents, its broken... but the main scource is the governers ville, house ect ect ect...

The first step playing romani is disbanding the ship and 1 triarii, assembly the army and conquer Italy. The most hard thing is fight at 2 fronts (Kartadast and Celts) at the same time, make a heavy use of local soldiers because roman camillian soldiers can only be retrained at starting cities (plus Segesta)

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Originally Posted by xzGAB

The first step playing romani is disbanding the ship and 1 triarii,

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Yes, the luxury liner has to go. But the triarii?! Blasphemy! :wink:

I'm wimping out at the moment, by only starving out cities. I just don't like RTW siege assaults. But it means I don't lose many men and can accumulate a fair amount of coin (hence this thread about what to spend it on). The Gauls have left me alone - walking past Bononia (I did have a half a stack next to it, to guard it) and trying to take Segesta with a full stack. They also tried the besieging tactic, but somehow were repulsed by the rebel defenders. Carthage is not making a serious move, so I am besieging Syracuse. I want to give the Carthies a chance to build up a little before expelling them from Sicily.

If you conquer a city with low public order, just enslave or exterminate the population :D

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|<-- what he said

but do it with a selfish general an unselfish one might get bad traits

also for the romans the fun part is collecting triumphs so roleplay it you got the manpower and the economy to do so anyway and remember forts with average garrisons are your friends particulary in the alpine passages and the river passages it can help you avoid unwanted wars for a very many precious turns

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Originally Posted by econ21

Taras is the one causing me concern at the moment; Rhegion I've just conquered. I'm following elements of QuintusSertorius's "true Roman" guide so I gave them both Type IV governments. Taras has quite a large population and I'm only keeping it in check with low taxes, so I fear I am just postponing the issue (the population growth breeding squalor). I thought the unrest in Taras would die down quite quickly as it seems to do in other TW titles, but it's quite persistent (about -35% unrest, -30% culture). I've dabbled with the mod since it first came out, so I have a basic understanding of it but am aware there's lots of things going on "under the hood" that I am unfamiliar with.

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I use Quintus Sertorius' guide too, but I make an exception with Taras and Rhegion - Type 1's for both, as that's historically what Rome did for pretty much all of Italy. The Type 1 government represents Italian allies, which is what Rome did for pretty much everyone on the Peninsula. Otherwise, yes, Type 4's and 3's are the way to go early on. -M

Do the different government types have direct effects on happiness or only indirect ones via unlocking certain buildings? If they do have direct effects, what are they? I was thinking of working up through the types as QuintusSertorius suggested - replacing Type 4 with Type 3 after a generation etc and just wondering what that will do for happiness.

Taras is still a sore on the republic for me - I think I will have to get a client ruler and see if I can raise taxes to choke off population growth until it gets more content. Right now, I am just treading water with low taxes - its just barely keeping happy with the population steadily adding more pressure.

I probably should have enslaved or expelled the population, but it did not feel right from a role-playing point of view.

I suspect Syracuse is going to cause me similar issues.

All you need is a capable gouverneur for those towns, at least for the first couple of turns when the unrest is high. The theater in Taras will give your sharp and charismatic FM good anti unrest ancillaries ( like: Orator -2 unrest, Musician -1 unrest etc. ). It also depends on the temple - actually Ceres Temple is the best one in the long terms ( decent public order, great trade revenue from the larger versions, and a place for your "populares" to do something for the people ). The most important thing is to get rid of Greek gouvernment building - upgrade it to the next level asap. Concerning enslavement: i do not see it as massacre, just kind of proscriptions against anti Roman elements, while extermination is really ugly and doesn´t belong to the Roman way concerning the Greeks, actually. But you still can keep decent public order in Syracuse if you put taxes on "low" and got a high influence/skilled administrator gouverneur there. Client rulers ain´t an option for Italy ( or Sicily ), imo, unless you want to roleplay Syracuse beeing your ally during the First Punic War ( but i have to dissapoint you - there will be almost no resistance from Carthage against you in Sicily except one big battle once you move towards Lillibeo, since they are too busy conquering villages in the Sahara.... ).

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Originally Posted by vollorix

...( but i have to dissapoint you - there will be almost no resistance from Carthage against you in Sicily except one big battle once you move towards Lillibeo, since they are too busy conquering villages in the Sahara.... ).

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Thanks for the good advice. You were right about Carthage's lack of resistance in Sicily, although as a RTW veteran, I was not expecting much. I am still disappointed in how the AI is coping with the lashings of money it is getting. Carthage sent a lone FM to Messana (after sending a lone Caetrati infantry, after sending some sad depleted quarter stack etc). I've heard of economy of force, but this is ridiculous. The Gauls are doing the same around Mediolanium. I guess I will have to break out into central Gaul and Greece, where the AI settlements are more numerous, to get a fight.

I'm wondering whether to use the BI exec to get a more active strategic AI, although I did not like the nuisance naval landings from that much either.

I did try Sinuhet's better formations sub-mod last night and that seemed to improve the battlefield AI a bit. When I lined my spears and slingers to face the Carthaginian cavalry on my left, they redeployed to the right, which was nice. On another occasion, the AI sallying form a city seemed to be massing a little to form a semblance of a line rather than coming at me piecemeal.

Back on topic about what to build - digging around the building tree, it looks like the forum is a useful building, unlocking the more advanced schools. I'd missed that linkage in the building browser. I also had not realised the order benefit of roads until Taedius mentioned it, although I do instinctively prioritise roads as just seeming such a "Roman" thing to construct. I'm also going for temples, although I don't ever recall getting a priest ancillary in EB. The Mars ancillary sounds tasty (+2 attack), even if the Mars temple does not give the promised morale benefits.

I once had a lone Carthaginian general land on Sicily in one of my Roman campaigns, he then proceeded to hire the entire merc pool which was at full capacity, gave me one hell of a shock but also one of the funnest battles I've ever fought (a real slug fest).

The BI exe does seem to improve naval invasions, I haven't noticed much else though.

If you want a more challenging fight with the AI I recommend slowing your expansion considerably, this gives them time to build up their settlements so they can churn out better units. In my last Roman campaign I didn't move out of the Italian peninsula until 200bc, to keep myself entertained during the wait I conducted punitive raids against factions that were getting too large for my liking, for example intervening in Greece when the KH looked like they were going to wipe out Epeiros and Makedonia.

The culture penalty is cause by the presence of buildings of another culture being present in one of your settlements, not your own. To get rid of it you either have to demolish or upgrade those buildings.

The funny thing is, i´m right now playing a Sweboz campaign ( a must after that preview on EB2 forums! ^^ ), and Romans just exploded, invading everything in their reach within about 20 years: they even took Baleares! Now, you all should remember an agressive Roman AI ( mostly the Scipii ) in vanilla, when the Romans used to invade the hell out of Africa, and if one wasn´t quick enough Roman armies would swarm everywhere down to Sahara. The reason i mention that is simple: why the Carthage never does the same thing? I mean yes, they send pathetic armies to the coast of Capua, great..., but why don´t they use their navy as efficient as the Roman AI in vanilla used to, trying to reconquer Sicily back? ( a half stack Carthaginian army, led by a FM, is lingering on Sardinia for years now - and it´s war between Carthage and Roma!? - something wrong with initial diplomacy settings perhaps? ). Could it be the construction time/costs of the ships? Could it be the unit size of the ships per se? ( very low, so it doesn´t seems worth of building from AI point of view? ).
Last but not least, imho, the best thing to make Carthage really tough to fight against would be to take away those 2 ( at least ) Sahara settlements adding it to the Eremos province, block the passage towards Egypt ( like RTR used to do ), and tweak the ships a bit, though i don´t exactly know how... This would also have a positive effect: ( at least ) 2 new settlements could be placed somehwere else. That would be a great thing for the 1.3 fixes, and yes, i know, it´s all about EB2 for now, but hey - that project we all are waiting for might take another year, while those fixes might take just couple of weeks ( the community might offer some moding assistance, too, i think ).

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Originally Posted by bobbin

If you want a more challenging fight with the AI I recommend slowing your expansion considerably, this gives them time to build up their settlements so they can churn out better units. In my last Roman campaign I didn't move out of the Italian peninsula until 200bc, to keep myself entertained during the wait I conducted punitive raids against factions that were getting too large for my liking, for example intervening in Greece when the KH looked like they were going to wipe out Epeiros and Makedonia.

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Maybe I should try that - I've been keeping more or less to QuintusSertorius's timetable. Starving out settlements and coping with unrests to naturally put a break on things (heck, the real Romans made faster progress than me around the start of the first Punic war). But now its around 254 and I am getting ahead of history - just took Mediolanium after suffering my first defeat. I got cocky and send a quarter stack out on a march alone and the AI finally snapped into action. Is it just me or do Gallic swordmen eat legionnaires for breakfast with their 0.22 lethality swords?

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Originally Posted by bobbin

If you want a more challenging fight with the AI I recommend slowing your expansion considerably, this gives them time to build up their settlements so they can churn out better units.

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I've sped this up with the process_cq and add_population command for the AI. So far it's been successful in speeding up their expansion and ability to build better units.

Anyone know the command to move units on the map? I'm playing as the Romans with BI.exe, and Carthage decides to land an entire army right near Capua while we are allies. I have a small contingency I left in Rhegion, but most of my army is fighting the Gauls in Northern Italy. I send most of the Rhegion garrison to Capua to fight behind my stone walls and protect my capital from direct attack if Carthage wanted war. With a few mercs and recruits, I manage to get a sizable garrison there under the command of a rather competent governor, but the oddest thing happens... Carthage retreats to the ship, but next turn they come back out. They repeat this behavior over and over again. How can I move them back to Sicily as I believe they are broken.

move_character "[name of the chap]" [X],[Y]

with spaces replace stuff in brackets

to find a suitable location you first have to point at it and type: show_cursorstat

I hope that works

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Originally Posted by Ca Putt

move_character "[name of the chap]" [X],[Y]

with spaces replace stuff in brackets

to find a suitable location you first have to point at it and type: show_cursorstat

I hope that works

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Thanks! I wish there was a diplomatic command I could use, because I'd rather not attack them and start a war.

there IS a mod that let's you force them to agree with your proposals. It's called Forced Diplomacy mod and can be found in the unofficial modding forum.

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Originally Posted by Ca Putt

there IS a mod that let's you force them to agree with your proposals. It's called Forced Diplomacy mod and can be found in the unofficial modding forum.

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Yes I know, but unforunately there is no "get the hell off my land" proposal.

yeah that's what I miss in TW games aswell :( I think the AI should at times at least TRY to act diplomatic.

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Originally Posted by Ice

Yes I know, but unforunately there is no "get the hell off my land" proposal.

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wierd i use it all the time it´s called stationing a large massive army next to the invaders and block their advance they normally get the picture and move out ofc i play with kh maks epirotes romans and people who have ready acess to mines wich enables you to have large standing armies for every 4-5 provinces group (last time i had 1 for italy + syracuse 4 in the balkans and one in the crimeia area ofc 3 of those balkans one´s where stationed close to border regions such as the dacians seulekids and they where always close to a navy just in case something else decides to go crazy like emporion and rebel to me i can send a strong stack to secure it´s greek indepence)

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Originally Posted by moonburn

wierd i use it all the time it´s called stationing a large massive army next to the invaders and block their advance they normally get the picture and move out ofc i play with kh maks epirotes romans and people who have ready acess to mines wich enables you to have large standing armies for every 4-5 provinces group (last time i had 1 for italy + syracuse 4 in the balkans and one in the crimeia area ofc 3 of those balkans one´s where stationed close to border regions such as the dacians seulekids and they where always close to a navy just in case something else decides to go crazy like emporion and rebel to me i can send a strong stack to secure it´s greek indepence)

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It doesn't work when your allies land behind your lines on the Italian penninsula and are boxed in.

I gave up on the BI.exe because of that kind of behaviour - the AI making annoying landings.

You probably should role-play it: landing a large army next to Capua is surely grounds for a declaration of war? Even if Carthage is your ally. I remember reading about the decline of Rome and there were sometimes analogous situations - other factions gradually encroaching on Roman territory, even if not formally at war.

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Originally Posted by econ21

I gave up on the BI.exe because of that kind of behaviour - the AI making annoying landings.

You probably should role-play it: landing a large army next to Capua is surely grounds for a declaration of war? Even if Carthage is your ally. I remember reading about the decline of Rome and there were sometimes analogous situations - other factions gradually encroaching on Roman territory, even if not formally at war.

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BI.exe actually surprised me. I captured Syracuse which drained much of my army. Thinking the AI was stupid I withdrew much of my battered forces to retrain in southern and central Italy. Two turns later Carthage lands a full stack and besieges Syracuse.

I think the AI has grown a semi brain. After conquering Sardina, I left a large army presence there with a general for many years until I built stone walls. Two turns after I remove half the garrison, Carthage lands elite troops and attacks the settlement. The walls bought me time to land reinforcements from the mainland, but that was an impressive move by the AI.