Private Funds OOC discussion

OOC: Is there a limit to the amount of estates that can be owned and is there a limit to the amount of estates per province? It was stated earlier that no more estates could be built in the Nile delta. Did that apply to only this season, or is there a 5 estate per province limit? If so, how can I now expand my personal economics? I cannot build trade ships, for I already have an estate and I cannot build another estate, because I can have only 1 per province and the only other province with a type 1 government is full already.

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Originally Posted by Ibn-Khaldun

OOC: Yes, there is 5 estate per province limit and you can build estates only in Type1 province. However, there are 2 of them(type1 provinces that is) ~;)

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OOC: Yes, but delta Neilou already has 5 estates, so I can't expand there. Heptanomis has 4, but one of those is already mine, so I can't expand there either. That means my income is limited to 1400 mnai per season for the rest of the game? Going on upkeep alone that would limit me to an army of only 4 units, nevermind the recruitment costs. Perhaps we can change the rules to allow estates in type II provinces as well? Or allow both estates and trade ships?

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Originally Posted by Folgore

OOC: Yes, but delta Neilou already has 5 estates, so I can't expand there. Heptanomis has 4, but one of those is already mine, so I can't expand there either. That means my income is limited to 1400 mnai per season for the rest of the game? Going on upkeep alone that would limit me to an army of only 4 units, nevermind the recruitment costs. Perhaps we can change the rules to allow estates in type II provinces as well? Or allow both estates and trade ships?

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OOC: You're only allowed one estate anyway.

No, you're allowed more than one, but only one/province. I think making them available in too many places would make estates too powerful in comparison to cargo ships, as it's the current limitations that keeps the far less reliable sea trade option viable. If you had one estate in Alexandria and one in Memphis today, there's only one sea trade route that could compete with that, and that would be the Alexandreia-Salamis route, and that would require all 15 ships. As you can only have one person/route, and you have to reclaim a route each year, on top of interruptions because of pirates being harder to dispatch than brigands and enemy fleets also being more probable than enemy armies, there's really little incentive of going for the sea trade option. I only did so to leave place for you guys to have estates.

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Originally Posted by Ibn-Khaldun

Can't do that. Law E1.2 prevents it.

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Respectfully, my dear comrade, I beg to differ. Law E1.2 requires us to pay our percentage within two seasons from its passing, but it says absolutely nothing about how it should be divided - or even that it should be divided at all. In other words, it is completely legal according to it to pay nothing this turn and pay 100% the next. I'm only asking to pay 50% -52 mnai this turn, and 50% +52 mnai the next.

OOC: Thanks TVC. This is all a little confusing. :S

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Originally Posted by The Celtic Viking

No, you're allowed more than one, but only one/province. I think making them available in too many places would make estates too powerful in comparison to cargo ships, as it's the current limitations that keeps the far less reliable sea trade option viable. If you had one estate in Alexandria and one in Memphis today, there's only one sea trade route that could compete with that, and that would be the Alexandreia-Salamis route, and that would require all 15 ships. As you can only have one person/route, and you have to reclaim a route each year, on top of interruptions because of pirates being harder to dispatch than brigands and enemy fleets also being more probable than enemy armies, there's really little incentive of going for the sea trade option. I only did so to leave place for you guys to have estates.

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True, but as it is, some players will be able to build two estates, while others can have only one. This means they'll have more than twice as much income solely because they posted first, which isn't really fun or fair, in my opinion. Perhaps we should limit the amount of estates a player can own to two and allow them to be built in type II government provinces as well. To balance out the trade shipping we then but the limit of ships on 20.

Also, an income of 1411 will only allow you to build a very small private army. With the units recruitable in Alexandreia, I've come up with 2 Machimoi Phalangitai (2 x 330), 2 Pantodapoi (2 x 224) and 2 Toxotai (2 x 103) for a total of 1314 mnai upkeep. That might just about be enough to take Paraithonion or Ammonion, but I'd be surprised if you could take any other settlement with that "army".

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Originally Posted by Folgore

True, but as it is, some players will be able to build two estates, while others can have only one. This means they'll have more than twice as much income solely because they posted first, which isn't really fun or fair, in my opinion. Perhaps we should limit the amount of estates a player can own to two and allow them to be built in type II government provinces as well. To balance out the trade shipping we then but the limit of ships on 20.

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Or simply limit to 1 estate? I don't think we should have that much personal funds. Not without some action from the council.

Also, Ibn, I haven't crunched the numbers, but I assume you are fixing the upkeep of the private units through the console right?

Perhaps allowing ships and estates, limiting to one estate gives those using trade ships an advantage. Either two estates, one estate and 7 ships or 15 ships seems fair to me.

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Originally Posted by johnhughthom

Perhaps allowing ships and estates, limiting to one estate gives those using trade ships an advantage. Either two estates, one estate and 7 ships or 15 ships seems fair to me.

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Well, some positions, say Nomarch, require the avatar to own an estate. I guess that's the advantage.

Ash - Yes, I'll use console to fix the upkeep. Forgot to do it this time. You can do it when you finish the turn. Not sure I'll be able to take the turn before that. Edit- it seems you have ended the turn. I'll pay the upkeep of this an last turn as well when I take the save. Also, my aim was for the people to recruit small private armies. If they wanted to get larger armies then they: 1) should co-op with other people. 2) gather some mnai and then recruit the units. When the task is done(for which they were recruited) then disband most of the units.

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Originally Posted by Ibn-Khaldun

Also, my aim was for the people to recruit small private armies. If they wanted to get larger armies then they: 1) should co-op with other people. 2) gather some mnai and then recruit the units. When the task is done(for which they were recruited) then disband most of the units.

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But for fairness' sake, a single estate would make more sense. Since the Ptolemies have only 2 homeland regions, it should make just about enough space for everybody, except perhaps latecomers. Being allowed more then 1 estate seems to encourage some sort of OOC race for them which doesn't really make sense. Or, I suppose this could be made into a law in the Council :blank2:

I already have ideas for laws and edicts for the next council :deal:

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Originally Posted by Folgore

True, but as it is, some players will be able to build two estates, while others can have only one. This means they'll have more than twice as much income solely because they posted first, which isn't really fun or fair, in my opinion. Perhaps we should limit the amount of estates a player can own to two and allow them to be built in type II government provinces as well. To balance out the trade shipping we then but the limit of ships on 20.

Also, an income of 1411 will only allow you to build a very small private army. With the units recruitable in Alexandreia, I've come up with 2 Machimoi Phalangitai (2 x 330), 2 Pantodapoi (2 x 224) and 2 Toxotai (2 x 103) for a total of 1314 mnai upkeep. That might just about be enough to take Paraithonion or Ammonion, but I'd be surprised if you could take any other settlement with that "army".

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Honestly, that's quite a big army IMO, especially considering that you'd still be making a profit, however small that might be. Giving a higher income so that every Tom, Dick and Jerry could run around with a full army of their own, conquering left, right and centre, would make for a boring game with no strategic considerations necessary and really limit the roleplaying options in this game. It would turn regular armies into nothing more than money saving machines for whoever commands them.

One estate limit is good.

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Originally Posted by The Celtic Viking

Honestly, that's quite a big army IMO, especially considering that you'd still be making a profit, however small that might be. Giving a higher income so that every Tom, Dick and Jerry could run around with a full army of their own, conquering left, right and centre, would make for a boring game with no strategic considerations necessary and really limit the roleplaying options in this game. It would turn regular armies into nothing more than money saving machines for whoever commands them.

One estate limit is good.

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Ah but every Tom, Dick and Harry is a player. We all want to command armies and rule our kingdoms. I trust you don't think 10 people joined this game so that they may grovel before whomever picked the Basileus avatar? The Royal armies are free and that's an advantage enough. Limiting other players in terms of income just furthers the power gap between the Basileus and the regular Strategoi. There is a limit to how many troops can one command based on command stars and rank in the rules, further limitations will make the position of Strategos just pathetic.

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Originally Posted by Myth

Ah but every Tom, Dick and Harry is a player. We all want to command armies and rule our kingdoms. I trust you don't think 10 people joined this game so that they may grovel before whomever picked the Basileus avatar? The Royal armies are free and that's an advantage enough. Limiting other players in terms of income just furthers the power gap between the Basileus and the regular Strategoi. There is a limit to how many troops can one command based on command stars and rank in the rules, further limitations will make the position of Strategos just pathetic.

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Well the position of strategos is quite weak. The point being you want to ally with others or try to get into positions of power yourself. I don't think the point here is players vs the AI. Especially not player with extra money from all the 'private funds' :wink:

Funny I thought the whole point was for us to get influence via private means (income from trade/farming, buying troops, income from military victories) and then try to run for office or start a civil war or whatever. Note that I'm not keen on civil wars at all. But I'd rather grab an army and carve a path trough AI held lands and trade with my allies. World conquest will still be very hard with the current rules (can't command more than 16 units per army at best, while the AI can field two full stacks vs you for example).

Moved OOC discussion over the Private funds into this thread. Will give my view on this later.

Ash is right. This kind of game is not about fighting battles or commanding armies, it's about roleplaying and interacting with your fellow players. If we just shower everyone with gold, that would be completely counter-productive to this goal, as the incentive to work together and to gain other people's favour would drop drastically. You can already if you want to build up an army of private units as is, either by making an army like the example you gave, or by saving up and then accepting monetary losses. Or better yet you can pool your resources with someone else and come to an agreement about a co-owned army or something like that.

Well then there must have been a misunderstanding. I thought we all started small, for the most part, but we work trough private (and yes, group as well) means to further the Ptolemaiou faction and complete our campaign goals. And since the campaign goals are basically - kill the Macedonians and Seleucids and take x provinces, I thought we must all some how get the needed troops and go conquer stuff. Right now the AI Seleucids are so much richer than us that even if we all make private armies it will still be a hard task in wiping them out. I mean, they can afford to bribe Tarsos! How much gold do they have...?!

Ah, sorry for messing up the treasury thread with my discussion guys.

I don't really have a problem with the amount of income, as long as players of equal ranks have about the same income. I'm fine with other players earning 300 mnai per turn more because they built an estate in Alexandreia and I had to settle in Memphis, but if some players can build an additional estate in Memphis while they already have one in Alexandreia, so they earn more than twice as much only because they were quicker to post, that doesn't seem very fair to me. Still, if that's the game, then that's the game and I'll go with it either way. I'm quite enjoying it so far. So that's just my opinion, let's not get stuck on this issue, but focus on enjoying the game instead. :)

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Originally Posted by Folgore

Ah, sorry for messing up the treasury thread with my discussion guys.

I don't really have a problem with the amount of income, as long as players of equal ranks have about the same income. I'm fine with other players earning 300 mnai per turn more because they built an estate in Alexandreia and I had to settle in Memphis, but if some players can build an additional estate in Memphis while they already have one in Alexandreia, so they earn more than twice as much only because they were quicker to post, that doesn't seem very fair to me. Still, if that's the game, then that's the game and I'll go with it either way. I'm quite enjoying it so far. So that's just my opinion, let's not get stuck on this issue, but focus on enjoying the game instead. :)

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And I wholeheartedly agree with you. 1 estate per person makes us all more or less equal. And who says Memphis won't grow to be richer then Alexandreia? It all depends on where the Chancellor expands the econ buildings!

As for the point of the game being more player interaction, I've been reading on the V&V and other games, and just look at the rules, especially the Civil War rules, it really points towards PvP interaction!

1. As have already been said - this game is about players interacting with each other.

2. With more variables (estate + cargo ships, estates in different provinces etc) would make the position of Treasurer more like a burden than a way to roleplay it. And if the Chancellor would hold all the lower offices as well then it would become too much work and most likely no one would want to become one in the future.

3. I will change the Estates part so that every player can have only one estate.

4. Like I said before:

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Also, my aim was for the people to recruit small private armies. If they wanted to get larger armies then they: 1) should co-op with other people. 2) gather some mnai and then recruit the units. When the task is done(for which they were recruited) then disband most of the units.

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Originally Posted by Ibn-Khaldun

3. I will change the Estates part so that every player can have only one estate.

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That's all I really wanted. Thanks. :)

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Originally Posted by Ibn-Khaldun

With more variables (estate + cargo ships, estates in different provinces etc) would make the position of Treasurer more like a burden than a way to roleplay it. And if the Chancellor would hold all the lower offices as well then it would become too much work and most likely no one would want to become one in the future.

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Good point, one estate does seem the best way forward.

Will the limitation of no ships when you have an estate still be in effect?

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Originally Posted by Myth

Will the limitation of no ships when you have an estate still be in effect?

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Yes.

About recruitment of private units, can you recruit multiple per turn, or only one?

Also, can you only recruit units that can be built in settlements we own or do we just have to have a settlement in the unit's area of recruitment? For example, I saw one of our royal armies had Nubian spearmen in it and they look like great units, but I don't think we can recruit them until we build a regional MIC in one of our southern states. Does that matter? I assume you'll add private units through the console anyway.

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Originally Posted by Folgore

About recruitment of private units, can you recruit multiple per turn, or only one?

Also, can you only recruit units that can be built in settlements we own or do we just have to have a settlement in the unit's area of recruitment? For example, I saw one of our royal armies had Nubian spearmen in it and they look like great units, but I don't think we can recruit them until we build a regional MIC in one of our southern states. Does that matter? I assume you'll add private units through the console anyway.

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I was wondering this.

If you can only recruit units that available by proper means, can you change the cities. So if a unit is only available in Alexandria could you spawn it in another city?

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Originally Posted by Folgore

About recruitment of private units, can you recruit multiple per turn, or only one?

Also, can you only recruit units that can be built in settlements we own or do we just have to have a settlement in the unit's area of recruitment? For example, I saw one of our royal armies had Nubian spearmen in it and they look like great units, but I don't think we can recruit them until we build a regional MIC in one of our southern states. Does that matter? I assume you'll add private units through the console anyway.

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Nubian spearmen were added with the changed descr_strat.txt file. I replaced many units from the original EB file with new units.

The reason why the Rules are vague concerning the Private units is that the Council could regulate it(recruitment of private units) with Laws and Edicts. ~:)

At the moment players can:
1) recruit units that are available in that city. So, no Galatians since the MICs are not high enough.
2) recruit mercenary units in a province where his avatar currently is stationed.
3) recruit as many mercenaries he wants but can only recruit 1 unit from the city. Also, Royal and Regular army recruitment always comes before Private unit recruitment.

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Originally Posted by LeoCordis

I was wondering this.

If you can only recruit units that available by proper means, can you change the cities. So if a unit is only available in Alexandria could you spawn it in another city?

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No, I will not spawn them in another city. If you want a unit that is available only in Sidon but want it in Pselkis then you have to move that unit there on campaign map. Only avatars can be teleported.

I was thinking we could RP developing lands to become suitable for estates- however, it would be a very long range plan.

To allow estates in a non type 1 region, the following buildings must be constructed there:
1. Roads (Time: 2 turns Cost: 800)
2.Simple Drainage (Time: 1 turn Cost: 1,000)
3. Basic farms (Time: 4 turns Cost: 1,200) or greater
4. Level 2 Market (Time: 6 turns Cost: 3,500) or greater
5.Katoikiai (Home for Military Settlers) (Time: 4 turns Cost: 1,600)
6. Doron Aroures (Grant of Land) (Time: 1 turn Cost: 5,000)- maybe the Basileios could be the only person who can make this- to represent that he is granting arable land to his officials in exchange for their military support.
7. Doreai (Administrative Estates) (Time: 6 turns Cost: 2,400)

Total: Time: 24 turns Cost: 15,500

However, assuming the settlement has roads, drainage,a level 2 market, and level 1 farms already:
Time:11 turns Cost:9,000

Players could try to push for this growth in the council meetings, by prioritizing agricultural development buildings, or maybe pay for this stuff from pocket(?). Anyway, I think it would at least be interesting to consider, even if it is currently not needed, seeing as everybody seems to be well-accommodated right now in terms of personal incomes, and none of these other areas seem to have as high tax/agriculture income as the regions that currently allow estates anyway.

Maybe this way we could make estates more prolific, but maybe change the way they get you income so they aren't a superior option to trade.

Also, any thoughts on making land trade or mining income possible for players to tap into at a future point in the game? I think it would be interesting, as the more diverse our income bases are, the more diverse our interests/goals/policies will be, which would lead to some more political armwrestling.

About the Allied Ruler fundings. I planned to propose some points that could make their lives a bit easier.
I planned to increase the number of estates allowed for the Allied Ruler to 3 but only in his capital province. He could allow someone else use one of his "estate slots" as well(but the maximum number of estates can't be higher than 3). Also, I thought I will allow them have both naval trade and estates. Though, the Home port will always be in the capital province of Allied Kingdom.

What say you?

Paul D - I'm afraid that building requirements etc could complicate our current system.

Perhaps TCV could share his current experience as a Treasurer with us. How hard it is etc.

That sounds like a very reasonable suggestion for Allied Kingdoms I-K, I take it capitals can be changed?

Yes, however you will loose all estates in the previous capital.
If there are no objections then I would add it into the rules during the next council session.

Allowing for sea trade opens the door to make it very unbalanced if it's a trade-rich province, and will be too powerful if they get an extra estate as well. It should be an either/or option IMO; if client rulers get too powerful then the Basileus might not want to allow them to be established in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Ibn-Khaldun

Perhaps TCV could share his current experience as a Treasurer with us. How hard it is etc.

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Yeah, or you could just share your own. :tongue:

The biggest, shall we say "bump on the road"?, was really in the beginning, when "someone" (~;)) had forgotten to post the report for the previous season, forcing me to backtrack and make two reports at once, and figure out which goes where. Now, however, it's only a matter of keeping tab on which units should be paid for by private means, do the math for income and expenses and then exchange the relevant numbers. It's mostly tedious and time-consuming work, and as long as people keep their SOTs updated, the hardest part (the keeping up with which units are privately funded, who pays for what, and where each avatar's income is coming from) is eased up.

I guess, You are using a spreadsheet file too? I had all the private units listed in a spreadsheet file as well(their numbers and upkeep). This made calculating the upkeep much easier.
Also, I suggest recruiting private units from cities before trying to figure out the income for the estates. Recruiting units affects the tax income in cities.
When you recruit mercenaries do you deduct both recruitment and upkeep costs from private funds in that turn? They both should be deducted.

Yes, I would've done so if someone had hired any mercenaries during my watch. ~;p

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Originally Posted by Ibn-Khaldun

Also, I suggest recruiting private units from cities before doing trying to figure out the income for the estates. Recruiting units affects the tax income in cities.

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I'll keep that in mind.